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View Poll Results: Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 13 Rating
Perfect 10 62 53.45%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 34 29.31%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 11 9.48%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 6.03%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 0.86%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.86%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 116. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-01-14, 06:14   Link #101
plzd0ntkeelme
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Let me first say that this ep is awesome. The action sequences are nicely animated and definitely get some blood pumping.

I'm definitely disappointed with how both Pheles and Margery unable to rip Wilhelmina's cloth apart. Don't y'all remember how Yuuji exploded and burn them to dust in one of the prev eps? He hasn't even produced the silver flame at the moment, but he was able to cook them into nothing. Yet both Pheles and Margery just fell like that? Well, Margery's fire burn the cloths to pieces so the cloths shouldn't be that tough.

Another forced event is Margery going berserk. If anything, she should be attacking Pheles by assuming that the silver flame came from her as opposed to, Yuuji? How long have Margery and Yuuji known each other and yet she was asking him, "so you're not tomogara? You're not siver?" Gotta say, in this anime alcohol seems to be a hell of a drug.
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Old 2008-01-14, 06:15   Link #102
Grimkill7
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This episode makes me wish Yoshida would just get torch'd. I never realized how much I truly hated her until now. Seriously? Did we really go through all that over-the-top, badass action just so we could here you say that Yuji is "far away from me"? Just hearing her say that made me angrier than anything else I've seen in this show. I think there are a few, slightly more urgent matters than your broken heart Kazumi. Her line was so out of place with everything else that was going on, that it kinda tarnished all the exciting events that had happened beforehand. Her one-sided love for Yuji has become so muddled, that it's actually starting to bring down the rest of the plot.
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Old 2008-01-14, 06:26   Link #103
plzd0ntkeelme
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Originally Posted by Grimkill7 View Post
This episode makes me wish Yoshida would just get torch'd. I never realized how much I truly hated her until now. Seriously? Did we really go through all that over-the-top, badass action just so we could here you say that Yuji is "far away from me"? Just hearing her say that made me angrier than anything else I've seen in this show. I think there are a few, slightly more urgent matters than your broken heart Kazumi. Her line was so out of place with everything else that was going on, that it actually kinda tarnished all the exciting events that had happened beforehand. Her one-sided love for Yuji has become so muddled, that it's actually starting to bring down the rest of the plot.
Yeah, her love for Yuuji seems to stronger than we all thought. It's kinda disturbing that she doesn't care about Oga or others who just died. But there is also the fact that everything can be restored back which is just so cheap, so she probably thought everything will be back to normal anyway so why bother.
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Old 2008-01-14, 08:15   Link #104
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Many things that happened during this fight that advanced the plot, I'm not sure how you can say it didn't. Pheles apearance wasn't to fight, it was simply to get in, get Johan, get out. The fact that Shana didn't like that and interfered, thereby starting the fight, was something Pheles hadn't counted on. However, Pheles apearance alone served to advance plot, the fight showed that she was very weak at the time, which again advanced plot. Then there is Margery, after finding out that Gin was there -in her eyes at least- did you really expect her to stay still? That would be drawing Margery out of character. Her discovering a possible link to Gin once more advanced plot. That aside, her berserking and the entire Oga-chan deal might serve to advance more development, or even finally convince Margery to actually train her two henchmen.
I think you're looking at my statements the wrong way. Yes, I know that things happened to advance the plot of the story as a whole. It's that the fight itself had no plot at all. It's like, hit hit hit, flame flame flame, ribbon, ribbon, ribbon. The fight was pointless, as nothing else was really going on other than just sword clashes.
I mean, should I try to write down the events of the battle, I'd get maybe a page of writing with the dialouge. It's useless.



Quote:
Question: Has Tanaka ever seen anyone get torn to shreds in a fuzetsu before? Much less someone he loves? That kinda has an impact on people, you know.
Just look at season one. When the hunter came to school and that girl was impaled, Yuji didn't just cry and make a stupid speech to Shana. He knew that what went on in the Fuzetsu stayed in it. His problem was using her to make repairs. Tanaka had experianced life in a Fuzetsu, and he knows the world. It was stupid to me.



Quote:
The twins battle was nowhere near as plot developping as this one, the only thing really developping was Senpen discovering Reiji Maigo and Shana doing a bit of soul searching. In this episode we got Pheles, Pheles background, Pheles current status, Reiji Maigo background, Reiji Maigo info, new enemy (Sabrac) discovery that Reiji Maigo is bugged, Margery discovering Yuji can use silver flames... Really, this episode was filled to the brink with plot.
Plot developing again does not mean that it contained plot. It means that it leads to possibilities of new plot. What did I see in this episode? Boring useless fighting. In the twin battle, we had Shana finding them and attacking them, we had her destruction of the flower, we had her capture, we had Yuji and Margery's destruction of the applicable torches, Shana's escape, the stealing of Shana's sword, the destruction of the twins, Yuji's finding the music box, Margery's fight with Metamorphosis, etc. All contained within the arc.
Here, we had clash clash, ribbon ribbon. There was no plot inside the fight at all.



Quote:
Leaving people hanging with even more questions then the last episode is also a way to give a cliffhanger. Less urgency, yes, but it does not limit the annoyance of having to wait another week for the next episode.
To be quite honest, I don't have more questions at all. I just know that something is wrong with the Reiju Maigo. All the other questions you brought up to me are answers/things that already were questions. This episode to me brought a close of a plotline, and now I feel like we're starting a new one.
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Old 2008-01-14, 08:15   Link #105
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Looks like Shana still needs conditioning if she thinks Yuuji is going to be destroyed instead of being killed. And Magery's random nonsense of spells has just reach the peak with "who stole my pie".
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Old 2008-01-14, 08:52   Link #106
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I was actually pleasantly surprised to discover that Pheles is not the main villain. All the hints pointed to her, but she is only desperate to reunite with her lover. They manged to surprise me and this is a plus in my book.
Perfect 10 for: awesome fight, plot advancement, a tender moment between Tanaka and Oga-chan, and Wilhelmina cradling Pheles. Best episode so far.
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Old 2008-01-14, 08:56   Link #107
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Solid kick ass episode with fire, swords, death, destruction, and a whole lot of shit going boom. That was the most destruction iv seen since the end of the first season. Pheles is even more intruing now and now im thinking she might not turn out to be as evil as i previously thought. With her not consuming humans she is fairly weak. But she sure as hell knows how to make an entrance. Her bgm once again was beautifully done. That music was perfect for the scene.

Now this mystery about Reiji Maigo and a mutation has peeked my interest even more i never considered that a mutation could have occured. When pheles said it was not acting properly that sent bells a ringing in my head. Honestly how much do we really know about the reiji maigo and exactly its function? We technically only have 3 party info on it. Pheles the creator should be able to fill us in on concret info.

Tanaka and Oga i loved that scene it has been building and finally we see the result. Hopfully tanaka wont waste anymore time
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Old 2008-01-14, 09:00   Link #108
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Originally Posted by Grimkill7 View Post
This episode makes me wish Yoshida would just get torch'd. I never realized how much I truly hated her until now. Seriously? Did we really go through all that over-the-top, badass action just so we could here you say that Yuji is "far away from me"? Just hearing her say that made me angrier than anything else I've seen in this show. I think there are a few, slightly more urgent matters than your broken heart Kazumi. Her line was so out of place with everything else that was going on, that it kinda tarnished all the exciting events that had happened beforehand. Her one-sided love for Yuji has become so muddled, that it's actually starting to bring down the rest of the plot.
Hey chill. You're taking this too seriously. If Yoshida really were the selfish person you were talking about, she would have said this out loud rather than just keep this thought to herself.

Most of us as human beings have at one time or another harbour some form of selfish thoughts in the most inappropriate of situations, though most of us are sensible enough to keep these thoughts absolutely private. So her "temporary disregard" for other people is quite normal to me. Who knows, it may turn her to the "Dark Side" and become an interesting plot point.

holyman got it right on the mark in his post in analyzing the fights.

It first started out with Margery in a blind rage and Pheles being unrelentless while eager in trying to extract her Johann from the Reiji Maigo. On the other hand, both Shana and Wilhelmina, though they were initially pegged back, managed to keep their heads cool.

The out-of-control Margery was simply exhausting her energy, Pheles was the same as well. Not to mention Shana has defeated a berserk Margery before.

I don't think the Margery vs Wilhelmina part is in the novel at all, so I'm just extrapolating from holyman's post.
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Old 2008-01-14, 09:12   Link #109
cnnydz
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Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post
Just look at season one. When the hunter came to school and that girl was impaled, Yuji didn't just cry and make a stupid speech to Shana. He knew that what went on in the Fuzetsu stayed in it. His problem was using her to make repairs. Tanaka had experianced life in a Fuzetsu, and he knows the world. It was stupid to me.
that's why
Spoiler for 3:


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post
Plot developing again does not mean that it contained plot. It means that it leads to possibilities of new plot. What did I see in this episode? Boring useless fighting. In the twin battle, we had Shana finding them and attacking them, we had her destruction of the flower, we had her capture, we had Yuji and Margery's destruction of the applicable torches, Shana's escape, the stealing of Shana's sword, the destruction of the twins, Yuji's finding the music box, Margery's fight with Metamorphosis, etc. All contained within the arc.
Here, we had clash clash, ribbon ribbon. There was no plot inside the fight at all.
in the other fights the tomogaras all had a plan, that is why the FHs need to investigate and do some hard thinking. but in this case pheles doesn't have one she just came to release johan, and pheles really suprised the FHs, i mean she teleported (with other tomogaras the FHs can sense their POE coming a long way off but they can't in this case) . so it is like let's finish this fight first, then think about other things, and most importantly this is just beginning of the arc,
Spoiler for 4:


Spoiler for 1:



Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post

To be quite honest, I don't have more questions at all. I just know that something is wrong with the Reiju Maigo. All the other questions you brought up to me are answers/things that already were questions. This episode to me brought a close of a plotline, and now I feel like we're starting a new one.
dont u wanna know what's sabrac relation to silver, and how was reiji maigo lost. and who put the keeper on the reiji maigo(i no this is not a new one but they all assumed it was phleles, and we are told now even she didn't know about it) is it sabrac, or someone else.

Last edited by cnnydz; 2008-01-14 at 09:33.
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Old 2008-01-14, 09:14   Link #110
cnnydz
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Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle View Post
I don't think the Margery vs Wilhelmina part is in the novel at all, so I'm just extrapolating from holyman's post.
Spoiler for 1:


although i really liked the pheles/johan story. i think pheles should just die, she is such a cruel and mindless b****
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Old 2008-01-14, 09:33   Link #111
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I think the earlier post about Pheles having the mind of a child holds some validity. How the heck did she escape Sabrac once the Reiji Maigo translocated?
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Old 2008-01-14, 09:51   Link #112
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Finally, that was the kind of Ko Otani music i've wanted to hear from the second season. Plenty of new tracks played --- just in time for the second season's soundtrack release.

So yeah that was a great episode, about time i guess. Pheles' vs Shana was fun to watch, the type of battle scenes i like from this series. CRAZY Margery was just crazy, and expected. I very much liked that few minute flash back scene. I'd love more of those.

Next episode looks to carry on things with Pheles, though after that i hope we don't return to high school drama, especially after this episode.
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Old 2008-01-14, 10:04   Link #113
Keroko
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Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post
I think you're looking at my statements the wrong way. Yes, I know that things happened to advance the plot of the story as a whole. It's that the fight itself had no plot at all. It's like, hit hit hit, flame flame flame, ribbon, ribbon, ribbon. The fight was pointless, as nothing else was really going on other than just sword clashes.
And discovering Pheles wants to get Johan back, and learning about her unrestricted spell, Inbelna, and the Oga incident, and discovering that Pheles is weakening. All that happened during the fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post
I mean, should I try to write down the events of the battle, I'd get maybe a page of writing with the dialouge. It's useless.
Yeah, you won't get lot of written dialogue during this fight, because this fight lasted an astonashing six minutes. Hard to cram more then a page of written dialogue in a fight of six minutes without making it go Naruto, and having both sides staring at eachother while talking for the entire fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post
Plot developing again does not mean that it contained plot. It means that it leads to possibilities of new plot.
To develop plot you need plot. This episode had a lot of plot, and used it to develop what we already knew.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post
What did I see in this episode? Boring useless fighting. In the twin battle, we had Shana finding them and attacking them, we had her destruction of the flower, we had her capture, we had Yuji and Margery's destruction of the applicable torches, Shana's escape, the stealing of Shana's sword, the destruction of the twins, Yuji's finding the music box, Margery's fight with Metamorphosis, etc. All contained within the arc.
Here, we had clash clash, ribbon ribbon. There was no plot inside the fight at all.
Ironic that you are using the twin battle as an example, as the amount of plot we gained from it paled in comparison to the shorter fight here. I mean, if I use your counting system of plot (the stealing of the sword is plot? What about Oga getting trashed? That can actually have long-terms results for Margery and Co.) I can add some more plot then what I already wrote above. Once again, this fight lasted six minutes, and it still delivered more plot then one that spanned one and a half episode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post
Just look at season one. When the hunter came to school and that girl was impaled, Yuji didn't just cry and make a stupid speech to Shana. He knew that what went on in the Fuzetsu stayed in it. His problem was using her to make repairs. Tanaka had experianced life in a Fuzetsu, and he knows the world. It was stupid to me.
That was Yuji, this is Tanaka. I think we can safely asume that these two people are vastly different from one another.

And you are seriously underestimating the psycological impact of seeing someone by all acounts getting killed in front of your eyes. Yes, Tanaka experienced life in a Fuzetsu before, but all he did was sit at the Haridan most of the time, and the only times he didn't he was never actually around the site of battle. Knowing people get hurt and seeing people get hurt are two vastly different things. Add to that that Oga's 'death' was not exactly the most clean one and I would have complained if Tanaka had acted casual on the matter.
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Old 2008-01-14, 11:28   Link #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And discovering Pheles wants to get Johan back, and learning about her unrestricted spell, Inbelna, and the Oga incident, and discovering that Pheles is weakening. All that happened during the fight.



Yeah, you won't get lot of written dialogue during this fight, because this fight lasted an astonashing six minutes. Hard to cram more then a page of written dialogue in a fight of six minutes without making it go Naruto, and having both sides staring at eachother while talking for the entire fight.



To develop plot you need plot. This episode had a lot of plot, and used it to develop what we already knew.



Ironic that you are using the twin battle as an example, as the amount of plot we gained from it paled in comparison to the shorter fight here. I mean, if I use your counting system of plot (the stealing of the sword is plot? What about Oga getting trashed? That can actually have long-terms results for Margery and Co.) I can add some more plot then what I already wrote above. Once again, this fight lasted six minutes, and it still delivered more plot then one that spanned one and a half episode.



That was Yuji, this is Tanaka. I think we can safely asume that these two people are vastly different from one another.

And you are seriously underestimating the psycological impact of seeing someone by all acounts getting killed in front of your eyes. Yes, Tanaka experienced life in a Fuzetsu before, but all he did was sit at the Haridan most of the time, and the only times he didn't he was never actually around the site of battle. Knowing people get hurt and seeing people get hurt are two vastly different things. Add to that that Oga's 'death' was not exactly the most clean one and I would have complained if Tanaka had acted casual on the matter.
Very points indeed a couple of people they stated they did not see the plot or the point of the majority of the episode. I find it funny because it was so direct in terms of how everything went down. I think we are use to fairly complicated scanerios so something so straightforward is rare. Though it may seem insignificant Oga getting killed had sever pshycological drawbacks, seeing someone you know getting killed right in front of you someone know is horrfying and imo Tanaka reacted properly. The episode opened up a shit load of more questions then what were answered. To me things just got even more complicated. Right now everyone is in the dark about with conjecture to go on.

The line between friend and foe just got blurred again.
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Old 2008-01-14, 11:35   Link #115
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
And discovering Pheles wants to get Johan back, and learning about her unrestricted spell, Inbelna, and the Oga incident, and discovering that Pheles is weakening. All that happened during the fight.
I knew Pheles wanted Johan back from the start. I don't see any point to learning about a new unrestricted spell. The Oga incident and what followed was stupid to me. And has there ever been a fight where they don't say "They're weakening!"
It was just a stupid fight in my opinion without plot. Maybe you feel differently, and I respect that. But to me, it just wasn't interesting.



Quote:
Yeah, you won't get lot of written dialogue during this fight, because this fight lasted an astonashing six minutes. Hard to cram more then a page of written dialogue in a fight of six minutes without making it go Naruto, and having both sides staring at eachother while talking for the entire fight.
I don't mean dialogue, necessarily. I mean that nothing really happened in the fight.



Quote:
To develop plot you need plot. This episode had a lot of plot, and used it to develop what we already knew.
In my opinion, no. It seemingly had no plot to me, and most things revealed were things I already knew.



Quote:
Ironic that you are using the twin battle as an example, as the amount of plot we gained from it paled in comparison to the shorter fight here. I mean, if I use your counting system of plot (the stealing of the sword is plot? What about Oga getting trashed? That can actually have long-terms results for Margery and Co.) I can add some more plot then what I already wrote above. Once again, this fight lasted six minutes, and it still delivered more plot then one that spanned one and a half episode.
Plot gained. Again, I'm not talking about what plot possibilities emerged from this, I'm talking about the plot in the fight itself, which was zero in my opinion.



Quote:
That was Yuji, this is Tanaka. I think we can safely asume that these two people are vastly different from one another.

And you are seriously underestimating the psycological impact of seeing someone by all acounts getting killed in front of your eyes. Yes, Tanaka experienced life in a Fuzetsu before, but all he did was sit at the Haridan most of the time, and the only times he didn't he was never actually around the site of battle. Knowing people get hurt and seeing people get hurt are two vastly different things. Add to that that Oga's 'death' was not exactly the most clean one and I would have complained if Tanaka had acted casual on the matter.
Regardless of what the impact was on him at the time, the fact that he whined to Margery later, fully understanding that everything would be fixed (If he didn't know that, he'd be more of an idiot than Yuji...) was just rediculous. Hence why I call it a rediculous speech.


Keep in mind, these are all my opinions. I'm not going to change my rating of this episode, because a 3 is just how much I enjoyed it. It was boring and useless in my mind.


cnnydz: If 1 is true, I'm very upset. But, I'm not going to stop watching it, now that I'm this far in. I doubt I'll be watch a S3 if it ever comes out.
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Old 2008-01-14, 12:18   Link #116
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This episode was so good! Finally, some well deserved action, it's been way too long. The first little quarter was intense, where Yuji used Fuzetsu, screaming.

Shana: "Please, quiet down!" *kicks Margery* :P too good.
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Old 2008-01-14, 12:43   Link #117
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I don't mean dialogue, necessarily. I mean that nothing really happened in the fight.

In my opinion, no. It seemingly had no plot to me, and most things revealed were things I already knew.

Plot gained. Again, I'm not talking about what plot possibilities emerged from this, I'm talking about the plot in the fight itself, which was zero in my opinion.
still don't know what u mean by plot. can u show me by analyzing the final fight with hunter plz

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Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post
Regardless of what the impact was on him at the time, the fact that he whined to Margery later, fully understanding that everything would be fixed (If he didn't know that, he'd be more of an idiot than Yuji...) was just rediculous. Hence why I call it a rediculous speech.
it is not ridiculous, tanaka just doesn't have what it takes to be strong. i mean there are people who fear traveling by air (and whine i know someone who does) even though they know it is safer than cars.
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Old 2008-01-14, 15:03   Link #118
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Originally Posted by Kiyoru View Post
This episode was so good! Finally, some well deserved action, it's been way too long. The first little quarter was intense, where Yuji used Fuzetsu, screaming.

Shana: "Please, quiet down!" *kicks Margery* :P too good.
You know, I'm surprised that J.C. Staff didn't use this, but that was a definite good time for Urusai x3.

After watching this episode... I don't know, it just seems like you need to marathon 13 into 14 into 15 to really appreciate this episode. The action was nice, but all in all, it didn't give the same feel as it did in S1.
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Old 2008-01-14, 16:54   Link #119
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Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post
I knew Pheles wanted Johan back from the start. I don't see any point to learning about a new unrestricted spell. The Oga incident and what followed was stupid to me. And has there ever been a fight where they don't say "They're weakening!"
It was just a stupid fight in my opinion without plot. Maybe you feel differently, and I respect that. But to me, it just wasn't interesting.
Ah, let me guess, novel reader? Well, that would explain a thing or two. But whether you knew, didn't care or tought the things that happened were stupid doesn't change the fact that it was plot. Just because you knew that Pheles could bring back Johan doesn't mean that suddenly its not plot anymore. That would be like saying water isn't water anymore just because you know its water.

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Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post
I don't mean dialogue, necessarily. I mean that nothing really happened in the fight.
You did mean dialogue, but that aside, tons of stuff happened during the fight, which I already described.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post
Plot gained. Again, I'm not talking about what plot possibilities emerged from this, I'm talking about the plot in the fight itself, which was zero in my opinion.
Then what was the plot in the twins fight?

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Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post
Regardless of what the impact was on him at the time, the fact that he whined to Margery later, fully understanding that everything would be fixed (If he didn't know that, he'd be more of an idiot than Yuji...) was just rediculous. Hence why I call it a rediculous speech.
Okay, lets recount. Someone you respected to the point of idolization just killed the one you loved. Should that not have an impact on a person? Should he simply shrug and go 'meh, I'll forgive her. Its all going to be fixed anyway'?

That would be a ridiculously unbelievable scene.

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Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post
Keep in mind, these are all my opinions. I'm not going to change my rating of this episode, because a 3 is just how much I enjoyed it. It was boring and useless in my mind.
I'm not expecting you to change your rating, I'm simply discussing whether episode 13 had a plot-filled fight and whether Tanaka's reaction was justified.

And having fun doing so. Important detail.
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Old 2008-01-14, 19:49   Link #120
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Ah, let me guess, novel reader? Well, that would explain a thing or two. But whether you knew, didn't care or tought the things that happened were stupid doesn't change the fact that it was plot. Just because you knew that Pheles could bring back Johan doesn't mean that suddenly its not plot anymore. That would be like saying water isn't water anymore just because you know its water.
Actually, the anime is the first I've ever seen of Shana.
That last passage reminded me of Haruhi. Heh.
But in all seriousness, I guess everything is plot, and I'm just arguing that this is very hollow and boring plot. To me, it was just reiterating everything we already knew, save that something is wrong with the Reiju Maigu.



Quote:
You did mean dialogue, but that aside, tons of stuff happened during the fight, which I already described.



Then what was the plot in the twins fight?
Spoiler for Twins arc:

Granted, I misplaced some things and got some little details wrong, since I haven't seen that in a while. But, here is the plot of this last fight:
Spoiler for Fight 13:

Anything after that is plot in the story, as the fight was over.


Quote:
Okay, lets recount. Someone you respected to the point of idolization just killed the one you loved. Should that not have an impact on a person? Should he simply shrug and go 'meh, I'll forgive her. Its all going to be fixed anyway'?

That would be a ridiculously unbelievable scene.
I would be shocked, as would anyone, to see that. However, after realizing that it's just an imaginary world and everything will be restored to the way it used to be, I wouldn't continue to go beserk. Rather, I'd keep a calm demeanor and wait it out.



Quote:
I'm not expecting you to change your rating, I'm simply discussing whether episode 13 had a plot-filled fight and whether Tanaka's reaction was justified.

And having fun doing so. Important detail.
Note that this is going to sound sarcastic, but I honestly do not mean it to be.
I'm sorry. I kind of forgot that ASuki isn't like the other boards I've been to, where people tended to argue with me just because they wanted to argue with me so that they could trip me up on one little thing and use it to discredit my entire argument. I'm just not really used to having an argument to somebody who actually believes their side of the story, rather than trying to play the devil's advocate in order to make me feel terrible. For my accusations, I'm sorry.
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