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Old 2008-01-15, 15:25   Link #21
arias
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I majored in Philosophy and the opening post was pretty hard to understand, one of the reasons being that "metaphysical" is being used in the wrong way. I certainly have wrapped myself up in similar convoluted thoughts after chasing my own shadows so seeing this thread was a minor delight.. Now to engage in some discourse.

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Originally Posted by Bornsatin View Post
We kill people to punish them or make them incapable of murdering ever again, on the assumption that they will go around killing more people eh? Isn't that unethical in itself? To trust our 'reasonable' assumption to end a persons life in one way or another? It would be at the 'risk' of other lives but we don't know what the risk is until we've taken it.
Well, if you have any sort of trust in our science and statistics, you will know that such "assumptions" may very well be justified. Criminal offenders are often, and often will be, repeat offenders, for many reasons. The issue is more complicated than that..


Quote:
I agree with you that on our individual lives, the scale is different and that it does matter and hold value. And only because we exist around others. If both loves die, their love has died. It may inspire new relationships but those will be form different patterns. Either less or more complicated. So while it matters to us, in a generalization it doesn't make much difference. So we could punish our little killer for what he did either for the sake of revenge or gratification (selfish) or on the assumption that he'll make our lives less safe (selfish) both being somewhat unethical.
This "assumption" thing you have going on is abit jarring. We live our lives by assumptions. We assume we're going to have a tomorrow, that the sun will rise again, that the bus will come every 3 minutes, that your loved one is real and not an illusion, that your life is real and not a dream etc.

Using the word "assumption" is inappropriate to the situation because the language really makes it seem like it's unfair or unjustified. Taking a purely metaphysical (by your usage) or two-dimensional ethical approach does not really help flesh out the details. We need to know more about criminal psychology - are murderers repeat offenders? How often? Are there a sub-type of murderers that are repeat offenders and others who are not? How do we differentiate them?

Then there is the social aspect, how do we handle criminals? Do we jail them, and continue to feed them and provide them with accomodation? Do we rehabilitate those which can be rehabilitated? Should society bear the cost of feeding and housing its criminals? (Note that prison cells in the US are often full to the brim -- such that offenders scheduled to be jailed are sometimes let free.)



I guess I've come across as abit confusing, mainly because I think the original shape of your point was confusing as well.. I don't quite know where to start. But in all I would suppose that by isolating factors to just being metaphysical and ethical in this problem, it doesn't help to answer the questions that you have because bringing in other concepts like "selfish" and "assumption" far exceed the boundaries of the metaphysical and ethical into the social and so forth.

Your value system is also abit weird. Wouldn't killing every single sentient living thing in the world then be something that completely ruins the value system? Since value is relative and subjective; and in a universe without subjects there would be no value.. Oh well.
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Old 2008-01-15, 15:55   Link #22
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Quote:
you haven't explained what what you call "will" is, or its relationship with the Big Bang.
- You haven't explained why "value" changes as in a zero-sum game.
- The quantity of matter in the universe isn't constant.
- Your murderer isn't strong. He got caught and turned the environment that supported him into something hostile.
- Eugenism presupposes you know what it means to be strong, what it takes to come out on top. It's arrogant and stupid. A society that can build tanks and planes will beat a society of musclemen who can't use anything more elaborate than clubs, but ten thousand years ago, did we know that?
The explanation of the big bang was to explain how the universal value stays the same even if it's infinitely expanding.
The quantity of matter is constant, it is only it's relationship and expansion of space that stretches it. 6_6
My murderer didn't wish for the consequence, it was imposed on him. So he's stronger than the imposers but they outnumber him, i.e. democracy. :/ the rule of the common (often stupid) creatures who hold the majority ^__^
Eugenism isn't necessairily strength oriented.


Quote:
Well, if you have any sort of trust in our science and statistics, you will know that such "assumptions" may very well be justified. Criminal offenders are often, and often will be, repeat offenders, for many reasons. The issue is more complicated than that..
The purpose that is gained from their punishment is what I go against. Even if they were to repeat their acts, I don't see much wrong with it by my thought pattern since life elsewhere will ultimately replace it.


Quote:
I guess I've come across as abit confusing, mainly because I think the original shape of your point was confusing as well.. I don't quite know where to start. But in all I would suppose that by isolating factors to just being metaphysical and ethical in this problem, it doesn't help to answer the questions that you have because bringing in other concepts like "selfish" and "assumption" far exceed the boundaries of the metaphysical and ethical into the social and so forth.
What I've called 'selfish' is what I understand to be ethically wrong and quite often biased. : ) Since I do believe the metaphysical side of it, I don't support punishment to begin with. It becomes selfish because in death, we only think of ourselves even in thinking for others. It's not that social from the perspective this thread enlightens. Individuality is only genetic code and upbringing acting together to make us who we are, and self-centricism the value is lost. ^__^ Ironically, I'm selfishly arguing.

Quote:
Your value system is also abit weird. Wouldn't killing every single sentient living thing in the world then be something that completely ruins the value system? Since value is relative and subjective; and in a universe without subjects there would be no value.. Oh well.
It would 'eventually' ruin the value system only for it to be replaced by a different one elsewhere in the universe. Our society's unity or chaos is a miniature of the universe itself, it begins it expands and eventually it'll come to an end. Or so I believe anyway :/


I'm sorry if I couldn't satisfy your hunger for something intriguing, but it was just a thought I felt like projecting for some response. To correct myself in the process. And if you are as qualified as you say you are, this'll be more of a learning experience for me than it'll be a debate or a discussion. ^__^Touché
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Old 2008-01-15, 16:31   Link #23
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bornsatin View Post
The explanation of the big bang was to explain how the universal value stays the same even if it's infinitely expanding.
The quantity of matter is constant, it is only it's relationship and expansion of space that stretches it. 6_6
So... It was a simile, rather than something to do with the actual value? Is that what you mean? And the quantity of matter in the universe isn't a constant.

And do you believe matter is the only measure of value? That if I cut you in twain, in doesn't matter, because we'll still have two halves, equal to the whole?
Quote:
My murderer didn't wish for the consequence, it was imposed on him.
That's what makes him a failure. He choose an action that ultimately had bad consequences. It means he lacked of foresight, ability, or luck.

Quote:
So he's stronger than the imposers but they outnumber him, i.e. democracy. :/ the rule of the common (often stupid) creatures who hold the majority ^__^
Murder isn't illegal only in democracies. And I don't get your point. A lone man is stronger for killing others, but if several people do it they're not? How does that work?

Quote:
Eugenism isn't necessairily strength oriented.
Not physical strength, no. But you didn't get my point: what's desirable today, what we'll naturally breed ourselves for... In ten thousand years, it may well prove largely meaningless.


Quote:
The purpose that is gained from their punishment is what I go against. Even if they were to repeat their acts, I don't see much wrong with it by my thought pattern since life elsewhere will ultimately replace it.
So I can take your money, because it won't be lost for everyone? I can kill you, because hey, new babies are born all the time?

Besides, you entirely fail to grasp the notions of choice, responsibility, and consequences. We, all of us, make choices hoping to get more good consequences than bad. If those choices include putting murderers in jail, hoping it'll be good for us, well, tough for the murderers, but they certainly can't come crying that they just chose to kill someone and since we all have free will, it's fine. By the same logic, imprisoning them is fine too.


Quote:
What I've called 'selfish' is what I understand to be ethically wrong and quite often biased. : )
What ethics are you using? Those that say that nothing matters? How can anything be wrong there?

Quote:
Since I do believe the metaphysical side of it, I don't support punishment to begin with. It becomes selfish because in death, we only think of ourselves even in thinking for others. It's not that social from the perspective this thread enlightens. Individuality is only genetic code and upbringing acting together to make us who we are, and self-centricism the value is lost. ^__^ Ironically, I'm selfishly arguing.
What the heck are you saying?
Quote:
It would 'eventually' ruin the value system only for it to be replaced by a different one elsewhere in the universe. Our society's unity or chaos is a miniature of the universe itself, it begins it expands and eventually it'll come to an end. Or so I believe anyway :/
I can't even begin to understand how your value system works.
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Old 2008-01-15, 16:49   Link #24
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Quote:
the quantity of matter in the universe isn't a constant
Matter is governed by space, if space were stretched, matter would too. I suppose it's quantity would remain constant but not to an observer, it has expanded. Quantity is how we define something taking more or less space :/ this obviously isn't the physical explanation

Quote:
Murder isn't illegal only in democracies. And I don't get your point. A lone man is stronger for killing others, but if several people do it they're not? How does that work?
I was referring to democracies to simply what i was trying to say, this wasn't really political at all. If several people kill 1 man, the whole point of the eugenic concept is defeated ^_^

Quote:
So I can take your money, because it won't be lost for everyone? I can kill you, because hey, new babies are born all the time?

Besides, you entirely fail to grasp the notions of choice, responsibility, and consequences. We, all of us, make choices hoping to get more good consequences than bad. If those choices include putting murderers in jail, hoping it'll be good for us, well, tough for the murderers, but they certainly can't come crying that they just chose to kill someone and since we all have free will, it's fine. By the same logic, imprisoning them is fine too.
By 'ultimate replacement' i meant a different specie would replace us, not a new baby for every death.. since even today more babies are being born and the population would never inrease eh.

What you call 'choice' is a somewhat unjust decision nonetheless. When you put them in jail hoping it'll make your lives better/safer, you only end up retaliating, ruining 2 lives. Ethics aren't logical at all, so as I said.. 'metaphysically, we should be able to go around killing each other' and it wasn't an argument rather a discussion. You've only made it clear you side ethics and morality ^_^ But being the first one to actually entirely stick to the topic, I commend you.


Quote:
What the heck are you saying?
It was in response to what Arias said. Jack is self-centered because he's never had anything but his self to be the center of his thought. That is what made him so valueless, in a way that's all we accomplish when we're being selfish x) nothing at all.

Quote:
I can't even begin to understand how your value system works.
Well, it's a little vauge which was why I posted this in order to clarify my own thoughts. Before the bigbang, the 1 dimensional point was in complete unity within itself, hence the ultimate bond/relationship even though it's only physical. x)So we take it as reference. Now as the bond grows weaker in the universe, among ourselves (humans) we still carry some relationships which effectively govern our lives to a great extent even if we are sentient and capable of individuality. This relationship of anything/everything is what I call value, or whatever carries importance to another because it influences or controls it's course of life or existence.

I'm pretty sure you're still unclear, and so am I or I wouldn't post this for dicussion but rather as a definite article somewhere. It's a hypothesis for a hypothesis. ^__^''
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Old 2008-01-15, 18:08   Link #25
Defron
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bornsatin View Post
Matter is governed by space, if space were stretched, matter would too. I suppose it's quantity would remain constant but not to an observer, it has expanded. Quantity is how we define something taking more or less space :/ this obviously isn't the physical explanation
The amount of matter isn't always the same, the amount of information is.

Quote:
By 'ultimate replacement' i meant a different specie would replace us, not a new baby for every death.. since even today more babies are being born and the population would never inrease eh.
Eventually all life in the entire universe will cease.

While I do not agree with you on a person who does nothing with their life is worthless, this thread is still interesting.
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Old 2008-01-15, 18:11   Link #26
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Originally Posted by Defron View Post

While I do not agree with you on a person who does nothing with their life is worthless, this thread is still interesting.
Can you give me your reasoning on this? If it is just personal belief, there's no need to explain, if not I'm just curious how your mind works ^^
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Old 2008-01-15, 18:18   Link #27
Defron
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Originally Posted by Aoie_Emesai View Post
Can you give me your reasoning on this? If it is just personal belief, there's no need to explain, if not I'm just curious how your mind works ^^
I explained it a bit earlier using the magical number 2.
It is impossible to destroy/kill a 2 because it is not a physical item.
The essence of a human (their consciousness, spirit, soul, whatever you prefer) is also not a physical item and cannot be destroyed likewise.
Every person has some intrinsic value because of this.

Just my way of thinking about it, but it very easily could be the fact that I don't like the idea of death being the end of it all.
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Old 2008-01-15, 18:34   Link #28
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Uh.. we all have intrisic instincts and likes and dislikes but for those to be established, we atleast have to be exposed to things for it to come out :^__^
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Old 2008-01-15, 20:40   Link #29
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Originally Posted by siya View Post
So then your saying that everything is already pre-planed then? I might be reading it wrong (probably am..got like 1 hour of sleep last night studying for my finals, just got done with algebra finals and am supposed to be doing a project on the computer so please excuse my mis-interpitation if i'm wrong).

If you ask me, your life is pre-determined by the choices you make...Your life is not completely set, you are set on a path in which you must take, it's just the choices along the way will effect the outcome....So, makeing your life have value or not would be entierly up to you....So your life is not pre-determined, just the path you walk on is....
No, the outcome is still the same. Unless you find some magical elixir that grants immortality, you are going to die someday. That's the fate of every living thing and there is nothing anyone can do to change that.

So your life is predetermined, leading to what I said in my post that you quoted....

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Originally Posted by Solace
The destination might not change, but the path is yours to travel.
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Old 2008-01-15, 21:00   Link #30
siya
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
No, the outcome is still the same. Unless you find some magical elixir that grants immortality, you are going to die someday. That's the fate of every living thing and there is nothing anyone can do to change that.

So your life is predetermined, leading to what I said in my post that you quoted....
Well of course your going to die...That's obivously pre-determined ((Off topic, but is "Pre-determined" hiphinated or no?)). What I'm saying is that you have a path along the way that you take...Say.....The start of the path is when you are born...The end of the path is when you die. So along that path in which you are on, along the way you have choices to make...to make it with the example, detours....Temptations, etc...Every choice you make will effect the outcome as you get further along the path. So, if you walk all the way on the path avoiding everything, and making as little choices as possible, ((Just so you know..This is kinda off your quote..just giving more explinations to my belife xD)) then your life has little value. The more choices you make, the more value your life gains...It's a matter of a value that you want or don't want. Now, ironically, always making the choices that you are for sure are the right thing can be bad as an outcome. In life, you are tempted to make wrong choices, and sometimes you take them which can give you a better outcome. This temptations can make life more fun, filling, profitable, etc...So, to make your life have more value, you take more dangerous choices..This is because by taking these choices you will meet new people, gain more respect in some areas, etc....More this happens, more value you have because the more people you know, the more people will remember you when you reach the end of your path. So in a technical sense, everyones life has value. It starts off small, and it's your choices that will make it grow. ((and I should state that I love this thread ^_^
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Old 2008-01-15, 23:10   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bornsatin
Life as I see it, is the will to exist individually, to grow and reproduce. The word 'will' here is used very literally. It is cruel to it's meaning that you understand what this means.
I highly recommend you study what Schopenhaur wrote about “the World as Will and Representation.”

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bornsatin
For the sake of argument, a man who spends his own life in solitary confinement and dies, (practically speaking) never mattered at all. No one had to shed tears, and even though materialisticly his absence would've been noticed, that was where it ended. "If a tree fell in the woods and non one heard it, did it make a sound?" That concept is being applied here.

From this we can conclude that life has no 'essential' value. An individual within itself carries no influence without another entity it could influence, which happens to be one of the conditions that have to be satisfied for something to carry value. Hence my life as a person carries no value but our lives as people do. So life holds a 'relative' value. We are important to others is why we are important to ourselves.
Wrong, or rather not necessarily. Life has “no essential value” only from your particular point of view. Which is why I’ve commented earlier that this is not a particularly fruitful philosophy, as it seems to me to be a sure-fire recipe for suicidal depression.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bornsatin
So to define the value of a human life, we need something of comparison.

So yes, individual life carries no value. But when two lives relate, as in a relationship.. that has value. And all relations, material and non-material (physical and spiritual) eventually constitute the universal value.
This is where I think you’re getting very confused. You’re talking about something derived possibly from the Taoist concept of dualism, ie, yin-yang, the empirical observation of how every natural phenomenom has an opposite.

But dualism does not in any way suggest that life has no inherent, universal value of its own. It merely proposes the view that where there is life, there is death. Where there is beauty, there is ugliness. Where there is kindness, there is cruelty. One does not define the other. It merely is.

To put it another way, before you can truly “live”, you need to accept death. To understand beauty, you need to know what is ugly. So on and so forth. This by no means imply that your life is meaningless. It’s merely a suggestion of how to live in acceptance of the Way (Tao).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bornsatin
-Now Metaphysically, all humans should be able to go around killing each other without consequences, the strongest survive and form a most efficient and positive community till they eventually die out an somewhere out there in the billion stars, an alien specie replaces us. But that would be an eugenic concept and that is ethically wrong.

-Ethically speaking, taking another life is a crime, a sin, it's not against human nature but it's against the natural law that governs the human nature. That nature should left alone to do it's own job, eventually and naturally kill this human. (although some would consider murder that too)

Ofcourse they need to be punished for them to 'learn' a lesson but there is no gurantee to this, so we end up ruining another human life so other's can feel safer.. a selfish motive? Is that ethical? I'm quite honestly ambivalent.
I think you’ve completely misunderstood what it means to be “metaphysical”.

Quoting from Wikipedia:
“Metaphysics is the branch of philosophy that investigates principles of reality transcending those of any particular science.”

In other words, metaphysics is what happens before physics. It’s when philosophers try to think about the rules that existed prior to physical reality.

Epistemology, the philosophy of knowledge, is required for almost any discussion on metaphysics. Basically, epistemology is that branch of philosphy where we study what we can know.

There is one view that there are concepts that exist outside of our reality (absolute rules), and that we can “know” some of these concepts through rational thought alone. There is the opposing view that it is ultimately pointless to ask about these concepts, because it is humanly impossible for us to “know” these concepts. That’s because these phenomena lie outside of human experience (what we cannot verify through our physical senses, we cannot know).

What you’ve described about “humans should be able to go around killing each other without consequences” has nothing to do with metaphysics at all. Instead, you’re talking about Ethics. Or, to put it more directly, you’ve merely expressed one out of many possible ethical systems, based on your subjective opinion that life is essentially meaningless (which I strongly disagree).

======

So, back to square one. What you’ve been wanting to discuss all along is really about Ethics, not Metaphysics. You’re looking for a way to think about “meaning” in life. And you’ve got yourself horribly confused in the process.

As I’ve suggested earlier, read more. As someone else has already commented, you’re chasing shadows.

You’re clearly someone who is interested in such matters of philosophy, but you’ll get nowhere by thinking in isolation — other thinkers have explored the same issues you’re thinking about, and they’ve covered the ground in far greater detail than I can possibly explain. You’ll make a lot more progress by doing further research on your own.

Good luck. I think you have potential, but you need to work at it. No one else can help clear up your thoughts for you.
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Old 2008-01-15, 23:34   Link #32
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Uh.. your references are almost irrelevant to me, since I have never formally approached philosophy. If you feel everything I've said is a syncratic product of everything you've learned, you're mistken ^_^' I'll definitely look into it, even though this understanding is not my struggle to understand who I am but rather interest for more knowledge, it has countless benefits besides the ones you've pointed out x)

I suppose I'm content with the rest, but could you please explain the 'essence' of a 'life' and it's 'value' as you understand it? I originally thought of classifying it as epistemology myself but metaphysics seemed more plausible, an error in judgement I guess.
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Old 2008-01-15, 23:51   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bornsatin
Uh.. your references are almost irrelevant to me, since I have never formally approached philosophy. If you feel everything I've said is a syncratic product of everything you've learned, you're mistken ^_^'
I'm not mistaken.

I do suggest you try my references. You'll be surprised to find that you're ideas aren't actually very original. (Heck, none of us on Earth are truly that original -- if we can think of something, chances are, somebody else has already thought of it before, and quite possibly wrote about it far more eloquently than I can.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bornsatin
...could you please explain the 'essence' of a 'life' and it's 'value' as you understand it?
"Essence" is very hard to explain, not least because everyone has a subjective opinion of what makes "essence". In my case, I use the word to refer to concepts, in particular, physical phenomena that we can experience and measure empirically. I would also use it to refer to intangible phenomena. For something to have "essence" it necessarily means that it "exists".

"Life" is probably even harder to define. You have religious, medical or philosophical definitions to choose and adapt from. But one thing is for sure, "life" is not just the "absence of death", as you might have put it. To say that would almost be like saying a coin is defined by its two sides, heads and tails.

Well sure, every coin has two sides, but I suppose you can see from this analogy that this explanation alone does not define a coin. In the same way, "life" and "death" are simply two sides of an "existence". One does not define the other.

Within the context of this thread, I suppose I can describe "life" simply as the ability to "have experience". You don't have to be consciously aware of the experience -- as far as we know, only humans are self-aware, but that doesn't make animals or plants less "alive" than we are.

It follows that the collection of "experiences" is what gives life value. Every experience, however trivial, adds value to life, not least because every life approaches "existence" from a perspective that is uniquely its own. Your relationships with other people are a subset of these "experiences". You also have your memories, your own thoughts, your biological needs, and your sensory perceptions. Together, these are all a part of what makes you a unique individual.

Which is why, from a narrow point of view, it would be morally wrong to take a life. Because every life is a unique instance that may never occur again. It has inherent value of its own.

But, when it comes to ethical systems, we realise that there are endless exceptions to that moral proposition, "Thou shalt not kill." That is what makes moral philosophy interesting (or frustrating) to study.

Last edited by TinyRedLeaf; 2008-01-16 at 01:22. Reason: Extended to include my explanations of "life" and "value".
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Old 2008-01-16, 02:40   Link #34
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Originally Posted by siya View Post
Well of course your going to die...That's obivously pre-determined ((Off topic, but is "Pre-determined" hiphinated or no?)). What I'm saying is that you have a path along the way that you take...Say.....The start of the path is when you are born...The end of the path is when you die. So along that path in which you are on, along the way you have choices to make...to make it with the example, detours....Temptations, etc...Every choice you make will effect the outcome as you get further along the path. So, if you walk all the way on the path avoiding everything, and making as little choices as possible, ((Just so you know..This is kinda off your quote..just giving more explinations to my belife xD)) then your life has little value. The more choices you make, the more value your life gains...It's a matter of a value that you want or don't want. Now, ironically, always making the choices that you are for sure are the right thing can be bad as an outcome. In life, you are tempted to make wrong choices, and sometimes you take them which can give you a better outcome. This temptations can make life more fun, filling, profitable, etc...So, to make your life have more value, you take more dangerous choices..This is because by taking these choices you will meet new people, gain more respect in some areas, etc....More this happens, more value you have because the more people you know, the more people will remember you when you reach the end of your path. So in a technical sense, everyones life has value. It starts off small, and it's your choices that will make it grow. ((and I should state that I love this thread ^_^
Ok. Head hurts from the block of text but I think I get what you are saying.

Value is subjective. Is a man like Hitler considered "valuable"? He certainly was influential. Perhaps Einstein? What about suicide bombers? Nuns? What about your neighbor? His friends?

To quote one of my favorite anime: No matter where you are, everyone is connected.

To presume you have affect on others is ignoring their effect on you. One influences the other. Someone gets a flat tire. Creates a traffic jam. People stuck waiting get angry. Someone has a fit of road rage. Cuts someone off by speeding around other cars. The person he cuts off swerves. Hits the guardrail. His car is damaged. He files a report with the police. The police arrest the guy who had road rage. Man who has road rage has to go to anger management and pays a large fine. See where I'm going with this?

It's fate. You, personally, have free will to decide. But everything about the universe, the system you live in, ultimately influences everything you do. So you go left instead of right, events will just play out accordingly. Because you cannot see the future, you cannot understand the events leading to your decision until after you have made it.

So when it comes to value, again it's not up to you to decide your relevance to the world. How that value is measured ultimately comes down to personal belief. To some it holds none. To others it's more precious than anything else in the universe.

Simply by existing, you influence the events of everything else. Those events shape you and others, making things as they are now. To tug on the strings of that tapestry would cause the whole thing to unravel.

And yes, it is a fun thread. It's interesting to see others thoughts on this kind of thing.
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Old 2008-01-16, 12:33   Link #35
siya
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Ok. Head hurts from the block of text but I think I get what you are saying.

Value is subjective. Is a man like Hitler considered "valuable"? He certainly was influential. Perhaps Einstein? What about suicide bombers? Nuns? What about your neighbor? His friends?

To quote one of my favorite anime: No matter where you are, everyone is connected.

To presume you have affect on others is ignoring their effect on you. One influences the other. Someone gets a flat tire. Creates a traffic jam. People stuck waiting get angry. Someone has a fit of road rage. Cuts someone off by speeding around other cars. The person he cuts off swerves. Hits the guardrail. His car is damaged. He files a report with the police. The police arrest the guy who had road rage. Man who has road rage has to go to anger management and pays a large fine. See where I'm going with this?

It's fate. You, personally, have free will to decide. But everything about the universe, the system you live in, ultimately influences everything you do. So you go left instead of right, events will just play out accordingly. Because you cannot see the future, you cannot understand the events leading to your decision until after you have made it.

So when it comes to value, again it's not up to you to decide your relevance to the world. How that value is measured ultimately comes down to personal belief. To some it holds none. To others it's more precious than anything else in the universe.

Simply by existing, you influence the events of everything else. Those events shape you and others, making things as they are now. To tug on the strings of that tapestry would cause the whole thing to unravel.

And yes, it is a fun thread. It's interesting to see others thoughts on this kind of thing.


Hmmm..I see what you are saying. See, my belifs in all this completley contridict themselfs....I think this is because it allows me to think more on the subject rather then pass by it. I don't like the thought of there being fate because that says that I have no control over my life what so ever, so how I end up is because it was planed, not because I made it to be that way..but then I do not believe in coincidences....Useing your example "The flat tire." My mind makes me think that it could of just became flat at random, but then my mind then thinks "Why did it go flat?" Then I start to think that it didn't just randomply go flat, something had to make it happen....Which makes me think back in a turn of events that could have happend and why it happend, going towards you theory on how people are all connected. This then goes towards the thought of "Fate." It's just confusing me...I've been taught that I can make my life how I want it to be, and that "Fate" doesn't exsist, but then you read things like this, and understand more and more, and it's just going against what you were taught, which is why I have a problem understanding...Ok..not understanding...More like accepting...My mind process everything and thinks about it..and even when I feel there is no way to get around it, I always keep thinking of a way because I feel that it's not true....So "Fate" itself is not confusing, it's because of how I was taught and the fact my mind contridicts itself is what makes it confusing....

(I would like to know how old everyone in this tread is..I mean, most of the kids in my school would probably have no idea what we are talking about....So to see kids my age talking about this would be a step out of the stupidity and ignorince in my school )
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Old 2008-01-16, 15:35   Link #36
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(I would like to know how old everyone in this tread is..I mean, most of the kids in my school would probably have no idea what we are talking about....So to see kids my age talking about this would be a step out of the stupidity and ignorince in my school )
I'm 15, but I'll never use that as an excuse for any incompetency in my reasoning. Most people my age group aren't even worth intelligent conversation. Too colloquial and ignorant of realities or philosophies which essentially govern their lives :/ The ones who are, are close to me ^__^
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Old 2008-01-16, 16:03   Link #37
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I'm 15, but I'll never use that as an excuse for any incompetency in my reasoning. Most people my age group aren't even worth intelligent conversation. Too colloquial and ignorant of realities or philosophies which essentially govern their lives :/ The ones who are, are close to me ^__^
Well, you shouldn't use your young age as an excuse but it certainly is a reason, whether it's brought up in discussion or not. We pick things up as we get older and only some of the greatest prodigies attain supreme competency at a young age... in Philosophy the only one I know of is the eluisve Saul Kripke, who was published and contributed a great deal to the development of logic in Philosophy when he was about your age. Even now I disagree with alot of his works though..

I think it's great that you're starving for intellectual discourse.

Your reasoning isn't incompetent as much as it is unclear. Being able to build, test and express your case clearly is an intellectual asset. It takes time to hone in on that precision. You'll also find that most people of ALL age groups do not care much about these intellectual things, but that's a separate issue from possessing an elitist attitude about it. You have to be careful about it.


Lots of things to work though, I think you can definitely consider pursuing Psychology or Philosophy, and a sub-discipline within those that has a strong bent towards the social sciences. Just be aware that pursuing intellectual interests can severely diminish your future job prospects.. as it did mine when I gave up on a very promising start in Computer Science ; )
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Old 2008-01-16, 16:48   Link #38
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Thank you for your sincere concerns : ) Phisolosphy is recreation as far as I'm concerned. My real 'strenghts' would be human biology and physics. And I'll (probably) pursue a career in Medicine. But as long as you enjoy what you do, I don't see it as much of a loss. Thanks for the encouragement and valuable advice x)
What ever got me interested in philosophy was to lay basics for any fiction/non-fiction writing I ever do, rather than the conventional shallow themes. A little metaphoria and philosophy really makes reading meaningful, and all I learn here will eventually be implemented to lay the framework of an (hopefully) intricate plot-line ^__^
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Old 2008-01-16, 19:10   Link #39
siya
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I'm 15, but I'll never use that as an excuse for any incompetency in my reasoning. Most people my age group aren't even worth intelligent conversation. Too colloquial and ignorant of realities or philosophies which essentially govern their lives :/ The ones who are, are close to me ^__^
hehe, Yea, I'm 15 too, It's nice to come on here and find other people my age that accualy have logical conversations that alot find that we would never understand because they downgrade us...-_-
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Old 2008-01-16, 21:23   Link #40
TinyRedLeaf
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Originally Posted by Bornsatin
I'm 15, but I'll never use that as an excuse for any incompetency in my reasoning. Most people my age group aren't even worth intelligent conversation. Too colloquial and ignorant of realities or philosophies which essentially govern their lives. The ones who are, are close to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bornsatin
What ever got me interested in philosophy was to lay basics for any fiction/non-fiction writing I ever do, rather than the conventional shallow themes. A little metaphoria and philosophy really makes reading meaningful, and all I learn here will eventually be implemented to lay the framework of an (hopefully) intricate plot-line.
Pride comes before the fall. While I won't suggest that older people are necessarily wiser or more intelligent, I would point out that they've "eaten more salt than all the rice you've eaten." So, never assume that you are too clever to learn from others, whoever humble their circumstances.

If it's writing you intend to do, here's further advice. People respect intelligence, but they admire beauty. While they may praise clever people, they don't often find them very likeable.

There are many kinds of writing, but the most successful novels, poems, essays, biographies, autobiographies, etc, are not the ones that beat you over the head bragging about the "wisdom" they contain. The most successful ones are those which tell stories that remind us what it means to be human.

Good luck.
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