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Old 2007-12-05, 20:43   Link #81
KaneDragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyasian224 View Post
its exactly as u said. for that duration of time, the enclosed area would no longer exist so people would simply forget everything related to that area until the fuzetsu is dispelled, then they remember
But which version would they remember? How things used to be, or how things are after changes in the fuzetsu?
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Old 2007-12-05, 21:27   Link #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneDragon View Post
But which version would they remember? How things used to be, or how things are after changes in the fuzetsu?
sorta confused with what your asking but the question thats coming through to me is that if something changes within the fuzetsu and is not fixed when it is dispelled, what do people think about it?

if there is a change, someone might notice it, since they would realize that not everything is exactly the same as what they remember. They still retain all of their memories of that place, but since the present doesnt completly match their memories, they might question it which leads to distortion and imbalance but yea... thats another story...
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Old 2007-12-05, 23:37   Link #83
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From the description of POE, i think it is possible to artificially increase a person POE. Since POE is bascially connections and recognition, all you need is to make the person ridiculously famous. (say known by 1/2 the world) It will probably require alot of $$ but should be no problem for those with Fuzetsu to make. Once a person is ridiculously famous change the person into a Flame Haze then the POE will be fixed at that value. Then the person existence is erased through the process. Since it is so ridiculous in the first place, it will be easier to normalise and rationalise into non-existence.

Anyway, what will happen when the balance is upset?
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Old 2007-12-05, 23:46   Link #84
ashlay
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Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
Anyway, what will happen when the balance is upset?
Whatever happens when severe paradoxes in reality pop up.

everything could very well blink itself out of existence, crimson realm and human realm both.
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Old 2007-12-06, 00:15   Link #85
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Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
Whatever happens when severe paradoxes in reality pop up.

everything could very well blink itself out of existence, crimson realm and human realm both.
Nobody knows what would happen if a paraodx occured, they only appear mathematically and that's assuming the universe doesn't conspire with itself to prevent paradoxes from occuring.

Suffice to say, that's now what would occur here. Human beings would notice the mass disappearences and panic would ensue - at best, they arm themselves to fight the Tomogara, since discovering the infiltration of such beings wouldn't be far behind discovering the disappearences.

But beyond that "upsetting the balance" is vague, and I believe intentionally so - it could be an important plot point in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
From the description of POE, i think it is possible to artificially increase a person POE. Since POE is bascially connections and recognition, all you need is to make the person ridiculously famous. (say known by 1/2 the world) It will probably require alot of $$ but should be no problem for those with Fuzetsu to make. Once a person is ridiculously famous change the person into a Flame Haze then the POE will be fixed at that value. Then the person existence is erased through the process. Since it is so ridiculous in the first place, it will be easier to normalise and rationalise into non-existence.
I don't understand your logic - how can a person who is known throughout the world have a ridiculous existence? There's nothing to doubt there that would prompt people to shove off something into the back of their minds as "impossible" - like, seeing a ghost and passing it off as a trick of the eye. There's no way someone could be so famous that people wouldn't believe that person couldn't exist.

Also I think you were trying to imply that a Torch could be prolonged if a person became super-popular. There are a couple issues with this - first, remember that a Torch doesn't function in the same way as fire, it's like a container. Or a balloon filled with water, even better (someone said this I believe earlier). A normal person would be a balloon getting filled with water as he/she grows more popular. A dead person would be a deflated balloon with some water in it. A Torch would be a small balloon with a leak - no matter how much water goes in, it'll continue to leak.

But, on the second issue, being a small balloon inherently prevents someone from finding a tap to get water, id est Yuuji found it difficult for people to acknolwedge Hirai's presence and keep it there - it's almost like, if there's a tap, it slowly turns off for Torches.
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Old 2007-12-06, 01:32   Link #86
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I am not talking about a torch. I am saying if the Crimson Lord want a host with large POE, they could artificially create one. The ridiculous part has to do with how the person become famous. Considerably how far reaching the mass media is with (internet, tv etc), it shouldn't be too hard with enough $$. The news don't even have to be true since recognition is enough to generate POE.

About the paradox thing, there isn't really a paradox in reality. Its only a paradox in perception. So i don't think anything will get blow up.

So what if they found out? Its not like they can do anything about it.
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Old 2007-12-06, 02:35   Link #87
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Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
So what if they found out? Its not like they can do anything about it.
I'd say you under-estimate the power of humanity.

Annaberg recognized humanity's constructive engine; like a bunch of ants who work together to overthrow their grasshopper overlords, the human race could adapt to battle against the Tomogara and Flame Haze over time to stop them. The Flame Haze don't appear to gain in power as they age (just experience), so it would be a war of attrition against their number.

Even better, most Hougu are enchanted weapons from various time periods anyway (like Trigger Happy) - even if the humans couldn't develop something to combat the Fuzetsu, they could use the Hougu to track Tomogara or Flame Haze as they are camouflaged and attack them by surprise.
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Old 2007-12-06, 02:56   Link #88
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Would a person's popularity actually determine his/her Power of Existence? I don't think it works that way...
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Old 2007-12-07, 12:04   Link #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek View Post
I'd say you under-estimate the power of humanity.

Annaberg recognized humanity's constructive engine; like a bunch of ants who work together to overthrow their grasshopper overlords, the human race could adapt to battle against the Tomogara and Flame Haze over time to stop them. The Flame Haze don't appear to gain in power as they age (just experience), so it would be a war of attrition against their number.

Even better, most Hougu are enchanted weapons from various time periods anyway (like Trigger Happy) - even if the humans couldn't develop something to combat the Fuzetsu, they could use the Hougu to track Tomogara or Flame Haze as they are camouflaged and attack them by surprise.
And you're overestimating the power of humanity. Takahashi has made that point explicitly clear.

Back in the medieval ages a few hundred years ago, humans already fear these Denizens as myths of people disappearing to all sorts of monsters spread around, and still they can't do anything about it. In fact, these "Muggles" has decided not to do anything and pretend it never existed.

And ever since Fuuzetsu was invented 400 years ago (yes, Fuuzetsu is a relatively "recent" addition to the Crimson Denizens skills), without the presence of a Flame Haze, the odds are completely tipped in the Denizens favour. To put it simply, a Fuuzetsu is a Denizen's way of cheating.

If you're inside a Fuuzetsu, unless you're a Flame Haze, you're as good as screwed.
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Old 2007-12-07, 18:39   Link #90
X207
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are flame haze dislocated from the world? meaning that they are viewed by all ppl to simply be strangers unless they slide themselves into a realm ie hikari.
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Old 2007-12-07, 18:42   Link #91
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Well, an out-of-character Flame Haze could always hand out charms to certain people, to allow them to move inside the barriers... I'm very open to the possibility of mixing "magic" and technology. The implications are there, right? (I wonder if communication charms work FTL...)

Hmm... Are Denizens vulnerable to regular guns by any chance, or are their humanoid forms just a front? BOOM HEADSHOT!

If we can't have human crack troops, humans could at least act as lookouts in every city, perhaps devise Denizen-sensors of some kind (would attaching an anti-Fuzetzu charm to a spy satellite allow it to spot Fuzetzus on Earth?), and then alert Flame Hazes for where to go.
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Old 2008-01-16, 02:06   Link #92
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Hmm... Are Denizens vulnerable to regular guns by any chance, or are their humanoid forms just a front? BOOM HEADSHOT!

Good question. If regular ammunition doesn't work, we'll have to dig out Frigane's recipe for "container breaker" rounds.
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Old 2008-01-16, 02:52   Link #93
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It only works on Flame Haze because their partners don't want to upset the balance. That's basically holding the world hostage to make them go away. Not very smart if it's your world, and your opponents (the "bad" Denizens) don't care about it.
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Old 2008-01-16, 07:13   Link #94
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I do think regular ammunition works, its just that normal people usually are sealed in the fuzetsu, and completely unaware of the existence of tomogara.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneDragon View Post
If we can't have human crack troops, humans could at least act as lookouts in every city, perhaps devise Denizen-sensors of some kind (would attaching an anti-Fuzetzu charm to a spy satellite allow it to spot Fuzetzus on Earth?), and then alert Flame Hazes for where to go.
Flame Haze are lone wolves, remember? Not to mention the human troops would still be affected by the disapearance of existence, forgetting a lot of info they need to give.
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Old 2008-01-17, 11:46   Link #95
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Flame Haze are lone wolves, remember? Not to mention the human troops would still be affected by the disappearance of existence, forgetting a lot of info they need to give.
How so? First of all, might the charms protect against the effect of forgetting people whose existence is consumed? Since Yuji and Flame Haze aren't effected, there has to be a line drawn somewhere. Secondly, how would the disappearance of random citizens affect their mission, which is essentially to phone home in the event of fuzetsu and possibly even try to snipe the Denizens themselves?

I know Flame Hazes are lone wolves, that's why they would never think to try my idea, and thus the untapped potential.
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Old 2008-01-17, 12:44   Link #96
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How so? First of all, might the charms protect against the effect of forgetting people whose existence is consumed? Since Yuji and Flame Haze aren't effected, there has to be a line drawn somewhere.
There is. Yuji and the Flame Haze aren't human.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneDragon View Post
Secondly, how would the disappearance of random citizens affect their mission, which is essentially to phone home in the event of fuzetsu and possibly even try to snipe the Denizens themselves?
That part might work, but discovering people being eaten might be harder, as some Tomogara don't use Fuzetsu, which would make it all but impossible for normal humans to detect them.
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Old 2008-01-20, 21:01   Link #97
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After watching few episodes of second from the long anime free break I underwent due to many series of unfortunate events, I think its anyone's guess as to how Yuji summons a silver flame whenever he setup a Fuzetsu. Possibly because it was shown that Pheles can bind Johan's existence into the Reiji Maigo, theres no telling what other presence you can install inside the Maigo. Hence my logical reasoning is Silver is also trapped inside the Maigo along with Johan when Broken Blade casted a jizaiho of some sorts. It might mean unfortunate for Margery, Silver had been almost killed by someone else and now living a comfy life in Yuji. Does this mean more Yuji grows his power/control over it, Silver will slowly start to resurface and take over Yuji's body? Kind of reminds me of that old game Soul Calibur where the evil sword took over the swordsman's body and mind.

I'm bit confused about Jizaiho(Unrestricted Spells) as well. Can anyone simply cast it? For some reason I don't seem to see Margery cast it very often if at all lately. While we see the enemies cast it without as much raising their fingers like Pheles when she pulled a Inbelna on Shana. What can be considered a Jizaiho? Right now my deduction is Jizaiho is a spell casted over the Fuzetsu to give the user a field advantage or raise their own attributes within the space of Fuzetsu, though this would contradict somewhere since we see Margery using a Jizaiho on Hecate chan when she's playing with sparrows in school grounds. Is it safe to say anything out of the ordinary like releasing a fire ball from a sword be considered a unrestricted spell? And lastly What is so unrestricted about Jizaiho? On same context can Yuji's silver flame be considered a Jizaiho of sorts? I see many other people casting Fuzetsu yet I don't see flames so vividly blazing from the ground like Yuji's/Silver's (In Margery's past). Nvm watched episode 8 and found out from Shana and Alastor's dialogue (Yuji is ready to cast Jizaiho -> Fuzetsu )

Margery's Past

I'm too confused to begin. Basicly she's after the Silver flame man in armor. Other than killing off her henchmen and staring at her with alot of eyes, did he do anything else to contribute more hate than he's worth? And how could such a dangerous villain simply leave his potential angel of vengence live to tell the experience(Or not tell)? I don't mind being spoiled considering I can't find the novels anywhere in nz (At least not a english one).

Does anyone have a cropped pic of Shana's predecessor to hold the Crimson eye/hair slayer title? I can't seem to remember which episode she was briefly seen and wanted to compare her with Pheles even though we all know Pheles is a totally different person ^^
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Old 2008-01-20, 22:07   Link #98
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Originally Posted by Ekoko View Post
Margery's Past

I'm too confused to begin. Basicly she's after the Silver flame man in armor. Other than killing off her henchmen and staring at her with alot of eyes, did he do anything else to contribute more hate than he's worth? And how could such a dangerous villain simply leave his potential angel of vengence live to tell the experience(Or not tell)? I don't mind being spoiled considering I can't find the novels anywhere in nz (At least not a english one).
I haven't read too many of the novels, but I can at least say things I know.
Silver didn't kill her henchmen. Silver killed the people she was going to kill. She must have hated them a lot and wanted to kill them, but suddenly Silver popped up and took her prey.
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Old 2008-01-21, 05:06   Link #99
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Unrestricted Spells is something that converts POE into.. well anything. it is a kind of POE manipulation that causes unnatural phenomenons.

Spoiler for j:
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Old 2008-01-21, 07:57   Link #100
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Spoiler for Margery's Past discussion:
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