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Old 2008-01-17, 09:11   Link #461
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, devices (in fact any military equipment) are created to accord to a certain combat doctrine. If that doctrine is wrong, the device will not be very good in combat.
Which still does not alter my point: These devices are created for combat, hence they are designed to perform optimally in this situation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Your inability to comprehend the difference b/w a theory to rationalize an ability that is clearly there and creating a new ability itself is quite frankly out of my expectations.

Let's put it this way. Suppose my pseudomatter theory is wrong. But the ability of a device to come out of what seems to be thin air would not change. So you'll have to use another theory, such as Tk's subspace "bag". However, it is not necessarily to abscribe auto-aiming abilities to the staffs, so insisting it has one is to create a new ability.
Excuse me? I am doing exactly the same thing, actually. Using your line as a base:

"Suppose my theory about a guidance system in the devices is wrong, the fact that a nine year old having just been given a device can shoot with deadly accuracy does not change." Unless Nanoha has been secretly following shooting lessons, I can't really see how she can be as accurate as she was in the first season. To add even more evidence, we already know devices assist in the forming of spells, both offensively (plenty of examples about, Nanoha's first spellcasts, A's after device upgrades, StrikerS after device upgrades) and defensively (again, plently of examples about) and even supportive (Nanoha's Flyer Fin, Nanoha had never flown before yet could even dodge Fate's attacks, Raising Heart was clearly aiding her in flight control). With all these examples, why on earth is it so hard to think "Hmm, if devices can help me form attacks and defenses, or even cast them on their own, and even control my flight capabillity, maybe, just maybe they can help me aim too."

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
As I've already explained, matter is basically a forcefield. Obviously, matter does not self-repair. Why will you expect pseudomatter to necessarily have this property? It is supposed to mimic matter, after all!
Maybe less complicated terms, or explanations of complicated terms would help. Not everyone is a scientist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
By the way, neither the subspace "bag" or the energy-matter theories do better about this. The weapons crack and get distorted often, but they do not really lose significant mass, so it is a matter of moving the matter around. If they could move real matter around enough to have created the weapon in the first place, surely they could easily paper over a little damage, but that's not what happens. And if one already spent countless joules forming a matter weapon out of pure energy, the effort required to smooth over a little damage when the matter is all present is negligible.
*jerks thumb to A's again* Bardiche lost about 40 to 50% of his mass, and recovered fully. Funny thing is the way how he recovered. He glowed, the glow expanded, disapeared and he didn't have a scratch. To me, that seems like he reverted to energy, added more energy, and converted it back to mass again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It isn't so much of whether they can or can't. It is more a matter of whether they show clear signs of doing so or not. Go back to the UFP. By the way, I don't think modern handheld weapons have evolved to jerk themselves in your hand to refine your aim. Even the American OICW was designed to assist as a fuse setter for those 20mm grenades.
I was refering more to the larger weaponry, as a refrence that aiming adjustments are very much present and actively used even here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Yes, and the thing will jerk rather uncomfortably in your hand as it begins to refine your aim. Your best chance to make such mechanical aim-refiner comfortable is to aim really well to begin with, so you don't feel it adjusting because the adjustment is so small.
Aim in the general direction, the weapons adjusts only slightly (it's not going to make 180 degree turns, just a little nudge where it is needed. Uncomfortable? Not really, only if you resist) and fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
IIRC, transporters and replicators use pools of existing matter for their efforts. Matter-energy conversion theories are extremely problematic. The first is the huge amount of energy involved in creating a weapon of any real mass from energy. We see no sign of mages being able to play around with high megaton class energy. Second, even if they found enough energy to feed into the weapon, there's the problem of when they have to de-transform. Where does all that energy go? You are forced to create a subspace "bag" just to try and hide that energy. This is not a simple theory.
Replicators don't exactly use 'megaton class energy' you know. As for where the energy goes, remember how Fate was converted into energy and absorbed into the Yami no Sho? (hey, look at that, canon example) same basic princible. The matter is converted into energy and 'absorbed' into the device, changing it to the sealed mode.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
By contrast, a forcefield theory only requires you to remember that matter is a forcefield, because matter is mostly empty. I think I was in primary school when I learned that, though admittedly it was later when I realized it was much more than 99% empty.
Wha? What kind of school did you go to? A school for geniuses? This entire 'matter is a forcefield' stuff is completely new to me, I've hever heard or read anything about that untill now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The fact that when someone really wants fast response or long range shooting, the sights come out, and when real precision is required, the stocks come out, suggests that it is not a matter of preference.
Long range, I give although not the physical sights, as Nanoha demonstrated a mental scope works just as well. Fast response? Still not convinced that a magic gun is faster, as mages can generate attacks from all directions. And they often need charge times as well (Tiana, episode 5 takes 4 full seconds to fire for example) the only time they get around that is when they spam cartridges like mad (Teana episode 6, which still leaves her a 2 second charge, and Vice in episode 26. Also note the 6 second charge he needs to deal with the Type 2) which makes one wonder how healthy gun-based devices are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
One can only surmise that chances for the flaws of the decision to come out does not often come to the TSAB. The TSAB's obvious lack of preparation for combat in general supports this view, and quite frankly, trying to appeal to the TSAB's authority when it comes to anything remotely military or tactical is laughable.
I'm not apealing to their authority, but since it is obvious TSAB personel has the freedom to choose their device's apearance, why did not more people choose a rifle or handgun-based device?
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Last edited by Keroko; 2008-01-17 at 09:55.
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Old 2008-01-17, 09:39   Link #462
Jimmy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkangelsk View Post
You contended that forcefields cannot break into chunks. I point out matter is a forcefield, and we all know matter can be broken into chunks, thus while it may be counterintuitive, the simple fact is that forcefields (as a general category class) can be broken into chunks!
While there's not much I can add to the rest of the discussion, I do take an issue with this. Do you know why matter can be broken up and still be solid? That's because each atom is half of the field emitter. Join two together and you have the bond that appears as solid matter on the macro scale. When a solid breaks, the bonds on the breaklines are gone. The field there vanishes. The remaining pieces remain solid, because their fields weren't disrupted.
That doesn't apply to these fictional forcefields. They have only one emitter projecting the entire field. Disrupt the field or its emitter, it's gone. For example, if you snap a neon tube in two, you get two broken pieces of glass, not two glowing tubes.
You can assert that forcefields projected by mages and their devices are actually maintained by many mini-emitters and each can project its own tiny field even when seperated from the rest. However, I will have to point out that there's no evidence for such a system. If you wish to argue that just because it isn't shown doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I have to point out that you're the one who earlier argued that we can't assume devices have unmentioned features like auto-targetting (or was it stablization?) because evidence for their existence was never shown.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
This entire 'matter is a forcefield' stuff is completely new to me, I've hever heard or read anything about that untill now.
Spoiler for physics lesson:

Last edited by Jimmy C; 2008-01-17 at 10:40.
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Old 2008-01-17, 11:03   Link #463
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Which still does not alter my point: These devices are created for combat, hence they are designed to perform optimally in this situation.
No. They are at best designed to perform optimally in accordance to the creator's conception of what combat is.

Quote:
Excuse me? I am doing exactly the same thing, actually. Using your line as a base:

"Suppose my theory about a guidance system in the devices is wrong, the fact that a nine year old having just been given a device can shoot with deadly accuracy does not change." Unless Nanoha has been secretly following shooting lessons, I can't really see how she can be as accurate as she was in the first season.
She can shoot with "deadly" accuracy at targets that are relatively close using unchoked shotgun blasts. Admittedly, it is impressive for a beginner, but it is also made clear that she's considered absurdly talented, and good as it was, the performance was not really superhuman. If I can believe that 9-year old Fate, having studied for 2 years, has a Masters' equivalent knowledge in magic and at least a high school level knowledge of math, I can certainly buy it. And thus, this can be explained with completely natural explanations, unlike the appearance of devices.

Come to think of it, Nanoha is extremely calm in deadly battle, something very unusual for a kid. Maybe Raising Heart has the ability to transmute various transquilizers as well ... wait.

Quote:
To add even more evidence, we already know devices assist in the forming of spells, both offensively (plenty of examples about, Nanoha's first spellcasts, A's after device upgrades, StrikerS after device upgrades) and defensively (again, plently of examples about) and even supportive (Nanoha's Flyer Fin, Nanoha had never flown before yet could even dodge Fate's attacks, Raising Heart was clearly aiding her in flight control). With all these examples, why on earth is it so hard to think "Hmm, if devices can help me form attacks and defenses, or even cast them on their own, and even control my flight capabillity, maybe, just maybe they can help me aim too."
Ooooo ... it can "play back" magic. Thus, it is a fire control computer. (To be fair, this is an exaggeration, but you get my point. The two are actually different branches of capability).

Quote:
Maybe less complicated terms, or explanations of complicated terms would help. Not everyone is a scientist.
See if JimmyC's quickie explanation suits your appetite better. If not I can try to bat.

Quote:
*jerks thumb to A's again* Bardiche lost about 40 to 50% of his mass, and recovered fully. Funny thing is the way how he recovered. He glowed, the glow expanded, disapeared and he didn't have a scratch. To me, that seems like he reverted to energy, added more energy, and converted it back to mass again.
You can do that with the forcefield-pseudomatter theory also except you won't have to come up with 9E16J of energy for every kilogram of missing Bardiche as mandated by E=mc^2. Also, IIRC, Bardiche was cut into two, so technically all the mass was still there.

Quote:
Aim in the general direction, the weapons adjusts only slightly (it's not going to make 180 degree turns, just a little nudge where it is needed. Uncomfortable? Not really, only if you resist) and fire.
That little nudge, coming all of a sudden will feel very un-natural to you. Imagine yourself trying to aim, thinking you have it right, and then the darn thing bucks into what it thinks is the right position.

Quote:
Replicators don't exactly use 'megaton class energy' you know.
If you make them use energy-matter conversion, that's what they'll start using. Ergo, they use something else. The fact they can't make things like latinum or (IIRC) gold further suggests that they are only molecular level manipulators.

Quote:
As for where the energy goes, remember how Fate was converted into energy and absorbed into the Yami no Sho? (hey, look at that, canon example) same basic princible. The matter is converted into energy and 'absorbed' into the device, changing it to the sealed mode.
Remember that they can actually still detect Fate's vitals, which would be rather impossible had Fate been converted into energy even temporarily.

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Long range, I give although not the physical sights, as Nanoha demonstrated a mental scope works just as well.
She demonstrates that it works adequately at 100m, which is far end of the no stock range. It is far from the same thing.

Quote:
Fast response? Still not convinced that a magic gun is faster, as mages can generate attacks from all directions. And they often need charge times as well (Tiana, episode 5 takes 4 full seconds to fire for example) the only time they get around that is when they spam cartridges like mad (Vice, episode 26, also note the 6 second charge he needs to deal with the Type 2) which makes one wonder how healthy gun-based devices are.
They do need to charge. In fact, Teana took her time charging Shot 1 in Ch1 too. The point is how she managed to alter targets. It is clearly the same tube of charge, but she does not have to work with an Attack system.

Quote:
I'm not apealing to their authority, but since it is obvious TSAB personel has the freedom to choose their device's apearance, why did not more people choose a rifle or handgun-based device?
Various, from cultural concerns to lack of understanding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
While there's not much I can add to the rest of the discussion, I do take an issue with this. Do you know why matter can be broken up and still be solid? That's because each atom is half of the field emitter. Join two together and you have the bond that appears as solid matter on the macro scale. When a solid breaks, the bonds on the breaklines are gone. The field there vanishes. The remaining pieces remain solid, because their fields weren't disrupted.
No contention here. Thanks BTW for explaining the whole matter business to Keroko. I can try but somehow I doubt I can get through to him...

Quote:
That doesn't apply to these fictional forcefields. They have only one emitter projecting the entire field. Disrupt the field or its emitter, it's gone. For example, if you snap a neon tube in two, you get two broken pieces of glass, not two glowing tubes.
You can assert that forcefields projected by mages and their devices are actually maintained by many mini-emitters and each can project its own tiny field even when seperated from the rest. However, I will have to point out that there's no evidence for such a system. If you wish to argue that just because it isn't shown doesn't mean it doesn't exist, I have to point out that you're the one who earlier argued that we can't assume devices have unmentioned features like auto-targetting (or was it stablization?) because evidence for their existence was never shown.
1) The difference is that we don't need a special magic mechanism to explain why they shoot to the degree they do - which is good but hardly superhuman. But we need a magic mechanism of one sort or another to explain BJs and devices.
2) You see a forcefield. You really have few clues as to its operation. Yet you automatically assume it must have only one emitter?
3) A single emitter model may be appropriate for the Field type of defence, but especially for the shield type, its "wall" nature strongly suggests multiple emitters. It is hard to see a single emitter forming a flat planar.
4) Also, the fact that barriers can shatter suggests that there are indeed some "mini-emitters" maintaining some cohesion, though a main emitter is also involved.
5) Then we can consider the Crystal-like Panzer Hidernis in EpA Ch 5, which even cracks. Hard to see a single emitter field "crack".
6) But why even continue raising logic and examples when i can dodge into the Bunker of Officiality:
Spoiler for MGLN StrikerS The Comics, Ch2, P.10:
If a BJ is barriers and fields, it stands to reason a staff can be made in very similar fashion. Nuff' said.
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Old 2008-01-17, 11:40   Link #464
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
No. They are at best designed to perform optimally in accordance to the creator's conception of what combat is.
Which in Nanoha's case is obviously shooting the crap out of ones oponent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
She can shoot with "deadly" accuracy at targets that are relatively close using unchoked shotgun blasts. Admittedly, it is impressive for a beginner, but it is also made clear that she's considered absurdly talented, and good as it was, the performance was not really superhuman.
And yet, even though she had no prior knowledge to anything regarding magic before, she still did them to a point where even profesionals were impressed with her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If I can believe that 9-year old Fate, having studied for 2 years, has a Masters' equivalent knowledge in magic and at least a high school level knowledge of math, I can certainly buy it. And thus, this can be explained with completely natural explanations, unlike the appearance of devices.
You forget the minor detail that Fate is also the result of an experiment that seems to churns out super-mages on a constant basis (Fate, Erio, Vivio).

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Come to think of it, Nanoha is extremely calm in deadly battle, something very unusual for a kid. Maybe Raising Heart has the ability to transmute various transquilizers as well ... wait.
Psycology =/= physical capabilities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Ooooo ... it can "play back" magic. Thus, it is a fire control computer. (To be fair, this is an exaggeration, but you get my point. The two are actually different branches of capability).
Do read beyond the recalling cast magic (even though Nanoha never cast protection prior to Raising Heart doing so) I did mention flight control, didn't I? How do you explain Nanoha was able to fly perfectly on her first try if Raising Heart did not help her? In fact, the scenes clearly show Raising Heart taking partial control over the flight. And do I need to bring up Mach Calibur again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
See if JimmyC's quickie explanation suits your appetite better. If not I can try to bat.
It does, somewhat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
You can do that with the forcefield-pseudomatter theory also except you won't have to come up with 9E16J of energy for every kilogram of missing Bardiche as mandated by E=mc^2. Also, IIRC, Bardiche was cut into two, so technically all the mass was still there.
But not in Fate's hands, she only had the top part, the lower part was nowhere to be found.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
That little nudge, coming all of a sudden will feel very un-natural to you. Imagine yourself trying to aim, thinking you have it right, and then the darn thing bucks into what it thinks is the right position.
Not if you know its comming. Like I said, you aim in the direction, and let the device handle the detail work. Sort of like allowing a trainer to adjust your aim on a shooting/archery range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If you make them use energy-matter conversion, that's what they'll start using. Ergo, they use something else. The fact they can't make things like latinum or (IIRC) gold further suggests that they are only molecular level manipulators.
Obviously they don't, as I've seen an episode with single replicator in a town that didn't even have electricity produce materials.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Remember that they can actually still detect Fate's vitals, which would be rather impossible had Fate been converted into energy even temporarily.
Why not? Fate disapeared and was absorbed into a book. This is clearly a case of matter being converted into energy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
She demonstrates that it works adequately at 100m, which is far end of the no stock range. It is far from the same thing.
How so?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
They do need to charge. In fact, Teana took her time charging Shot 1 in Ch1 too. The point is how she managed to alter targets. It is clearly the same tube of charge, but she does not have to work with an Attack system.
Yes, lets ignore the fact that Tiana even complimented Cross Mirage on his abillity to support her during live combat. -_-

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Various, from cultural concerns to lack of understanding.
Which obviously don't seem to bother Tiana and Vice in the slightest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
No contention here. Thanks BTW for explaining the whole matter business to Keroko. I can try but somehow I doubt I can get through to him...
Complicated terms confuse me. I'm no genius, sue me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
6) But why even continue raising logic and examples when i can dodge into the Bunker of Officiality:
Spoiler for MGLN StrikerS The Comics, Ch2, P.10:
If a BJ is barriers and fields, it stands to reason a staff can be made in very similar fashion. Nuff' said.
*brzzt* wrong, Nanoha said that the Barrier Jacket create both a Field and Barrier defense.

Spoiler for page in question:
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Old 2008-01-17, 12:02   Link #465
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Which in Nanoha's case is obviously shooting the crap out of ones oponent.
And the original RH designer has no say in this?

Quote:
And yet, even though she had no prior knowledge to anything regarding magic before, she still did them to a point where even profesionals were impressed with her.
I'll say that's to her own credit. Consider, will you be praising someone who got 100 because of themselves, or because there's a computer constantly blabbing all the right answers to them.

Quote:
You forget the minor detail that Fate is also the result of an experiment that seems to churns out super-mages on a constant basis (Fate, Erio, Vivio).
Precisely. We are dealing with very talented people here.

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Do read beyond the recalling cast magic (even though Nanoha never cast protection prior to Raising Heart doing so) I did mention flight control, didn't I?
Obviously, Protection was in RH's memory (maybe it was prepackaged?), and it merely pushed Play.

Quote:
How do you explain Nanoha was able to fly perfectly on her first try if Raising Heart did not help her? In fact, the scenes clearly show Raising Heart taking partial control over the flight. And do I need to bring up Mach Calibur again?
Not crashing does not mean "flying perfectly". Do you see any complicated manuevers? IIRC, it was basically an ascent.

Quote:
But not in Fate's hands, she only had the top part, the lower part was nowhere to be found.
Fine, but it does not change the essence of the situation any. In fact, it pushes it further in my direction - if I'm missing a chunk of E16J class energy in a tough fight, I'll be trying harder to recover it.

Quote:
Not if you know its comming. Like I said, you aim in the direction, and let the device handle the detail work. Sort of like allowing a trainer to adjust your aim on a shooting/archery range.
But you don't know exactly when the bump is coming.

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Obviously they don't, as I've seen an episode with single replicator in a town that didn't even have electricity produce materials.
Precisely.

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Why not? Fate disapeared and was absorbed into a book. This is clearly a case of matter being converted into energy.
If she was converted into energy, there will be no vitals to read. Further, if she was digested into energy, she will not even be able to think so the whole game would be meaningless.

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How so?
You see a soldier shoot from the hip at 100m and hit something. You conclude, therefore, that the effort involved in actually using the stock and all is "a matter of style".

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Yes, lets ignore the fact that Tiana even complimented Cross Mirage on his abillity to support her during live combat. -_-
Wasn't it just helping her prepare the rounds?

[quote]Which obviously don't seem to bother Tiana and Vice in the slightest.

Even in a town of morons, there can be one or two bright people.

Quote:
*brzzt* wrong, Nanoha said that the Barrier Jacket create[q both a Field and Barrier defense.

Spoiler for page in question:
Crap, I was afraid that something like this will happen - differing translations! Mine in the same place went "Our Barrier Jackets and Rein's Knight Armor are made from both barrier and field defences."

So basically one used the Active Voice and the other used the Passive. Who has the Japanese? I am feeling so happy I included some logic as well in the answer.

While we wait for that, I'll substitute another round:
Quote:
バリアジャケットを構成していた全魔力を瞬間的に解放することで、周囲に対して衝撃とバインド破壊の効果を持つ魔力攻撃を行う。
ただし、瞬間的にだが完全に無防備になる、再度バリアジャケットを構成する魔力が必要となる、等の欠点もあ る。
本編中では、闇の書の意志が召喚した赤竜の触手に捕らわれたフェイトが、この魔法を用いて一気 に脱出した。
使用話数:A's第10話
Note that it clearly says that the composition of a barrier jacket is magic, which favors my translation somewhat.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-01-17 at 12:15.
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Old 2008-01-17, 12:34   Link #466
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
And the original RH designer has no say in this?
Which is who? And for what purpose? You're jumping in a black hole here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I'll say that's to her own credit. Consider, will you be praising someone who got 100 because of themselves, or because there's a computer constantly blabbing all the right answers to them.
Who is the better driver? The one with automated acceleration or the one with manual?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Precisely. We are dealing with very talented people here.
You must have missed the word 'biological experiment' Nanoha does not have that advantage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Obviously, Protection was in RH's memory (maybe it was prepackaged?), and it merely pushed Play.
... good point. However, it does show a large level of self suficieny and still doesn't change the fact that the device clearly supports its wielder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Not crashing does not mean "flying perfectly". Do you see any complicated manuevers? IIRC, it was basically an ascent.
It was, but that still means devices do aid their wielders when required, even with physical motions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Fine, but it does not change the essence of the situation any. In fact, it pushes it further in my direction - if I'm missing a chunk of E16J class energy in a tough fight, I'll be trying harder to recover it.
Your direction? Hardly. Bardiche was damaged, the recovery returned it to an energy form, Fate suplied more energy which Bardiche used to restore the lost matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
But you don't know exactly when the bump is coming.
If you're ready for the fact that a small nudge will be comming, you can handle it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If she was converted into energy, there will be no vitals to read. Further, if she was digested into energy, she will not even be able to think so the whole game would be meaningless.
... I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble understanding how you can maintain that Fate was not converted to energy when she clearly vanished with no trace and was absorbed into a book.

You see a soldier shoot from the hip at 100m and hit something. You conclude, therefore, that the effort involved in actually using the stock and all is "a matter of style".

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Wasn't it just helping her prepare the rounds?
*double checks* Nope, the word round or bullet is never mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Even in a town of morons, there can be one or two bright people.
So anyone not following your guidelines of what works, despite counter evidence, is a moron?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Note that it clearly says that the composition of a barrier jacket is magic, which favors my translation somewhat.
It does? I could have sworn that all this time I've been saying that Barrier Jacket's are created out of magical energy turned into material.
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Old 2008-01-17, 12:45   Link #467
Nightengale
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
You must have missed the word 'biological experiment' Nanoha does not have that advantage.
Except that this 'biological experimentations' wasn't tailored to further enhance mages to the likes of cybernization and Artificial Mage experimentations, even more so in Fate's case where she was supposed to be 'human' in every sense. As far as it's concerned, both of them started on equal grounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
*double checks* Nope, the word round or bullet is never mentioned.
The way it was portrayed, it seems to be just high-speed processing that allowed her to shoot AMF-piercing rounds with less strain, energy consumption and loading time.
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Old 2008-01-17, 12:50   Link #468
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Except that this 'biological experimentations' wasn't tailored to further enhance mages to the likes of cybernization and Artificial Mage experimentations, even more so in Fate's case where she was supposed to be 'human' in every sense. As far as it's concerned, both of them started on equal grounds.
That was Precia's intention. Jail obviously thought differently, especially concidering the real Alicia had no magic potential at all. Then there are the other examples, of whom one is another prodigy at magic and the other the 'end boss' of StrikerS.

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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
The way it was portrayed, it seems to be just high-speed processing that allowed her to shoot AMF-piercing rounds with less strain, energy consumption and loading time.
Dunno, like I said, I didn't hear anything resembling 'bullet' or 'round' could be some other word for those two that I'm missing though.
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Old 2008-01-17, 12:54   Link #469
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Which is who? And for what purpose? You're jumping in a black hole here.
The point is that Nanoha is not the designer of RH. Thus you cannot use her wishes to determine how RH was originally designed. Further, a vague concept of "beating the enemy" does not a Techno-Tactical Requirement make.

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Who is the better driver? The one with automated acceleration or the one with manual?
If they get equal performance, the guy on manual.

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You must have missed the word 'biological experiment' Nanoha does not have that advantage.
But she's nevertheless observed to be excellent. That's the result. See also Nightengale's reply.

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... good point. However, it does show a large level of self suficieny and still doesn't change the fact that the device clearly supports its wielder.
Yes, the presentation of the sight itself is a method of support. I just don't see how that evolved into an auto arm-jerking function, or how even if there is an auto arm-jerking function it is a better solution.

Quote:
It was, but that still means devices do aid their wielders when required, even with physical motions.
As far as I can see, RH merely fired off the magic. I still don't see RH jerking the arms around. Quite frankly, if RH can jerk arms around, it might have blocked Fate's blow when they fought in that onsen.

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Your direction? Hardly. Bardiche was damaged, the recovery returned it to an energy form, Fate suplied more energy which Bardiche used to restore the lost matter.
Not really. If you have already expended entire megatons of energy forming your weapon, don't you think you'll want to look for the part instead of burning it again?

If you're ready for the fact that a small nudge will be comming, you can handle it.

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... I'm sorry, but I'm having trouble understanding how you can maintain that Fate was not converted to energy when she clearly vanished with no trace and was absorbed into a book.
Try that subspace bag thing. I don't like subspace bags but it fits the evidence better than the idea she was annihilated into energy and still somehow maintained her will and then managed to reconstitute herself.

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*double checks* Nope, the word round or bullet is never mentioned.
Oh, thanks, Nightengale.

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So anyone not following your guidelines of what works, despite counter evidence, is a moron?
Actually, my judgment went like this: Team A follows ergonomics. Team B does not. Team B has no obvious reasons for ignoring ergonomics. Thus, Team A is probably brighter.

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It does? I could have sworn that all this time I've been saying that Barrier Jacket's are created out of magical energy turned into material.
I find it stunning you could agree that a Barrier Jacket is made out of magical energy, but insist that there is no way a staff could be made out of the same method, preferring the huge costs of matter-energy conversion.

I studied the original Japanese, by the way. Luckily for you, the version you have is probably closer to the original. The bad news is, in the Japanese version, apparently, Magical Defenses include creating Physical Armor, which block physical attacks with their material strength. But then, when one sees the Red Crystal in A's Ep5, it is only natural...
http://kyohime57.free.fr/Nanoha/10.jpg

I'll further reinforce it with the description of how the kishi kachuu is to be created in A's Ep6. They'll create (tsukuri) it with their own magical energy (maryoku), not their own magical energy plus matter.
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Old 2008-01-17, 12:55   Link #470
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Guys, can we not do line-by-line? It makes the posts unreadable and the arguments difficult to follow. Break out your high school essay skills!

As a matter of fact, I did go to a school for geniuses. ;p I'm perfectly aware of the various issues associated with the physical composition of matter. All I'm saying is that if something acts like it's matter, it's reasonable to assume that it -is- matter; devices get damaged in ways that suggest that the stuff they're made of is, er, really there, instead of a projection of some type. It's not unreasonable that they can summon their composition from "somewhere else" - Caro summons freakin' Godzilla at one point, so it's not a magical effect from outside the knowledge of people in the show!

RH design... yeah yeah, original RH designer, but we -know- that its actual manifestation was at least partly up to Nanoha. That much is in the show. We can't hand-wave it away. It wasn't pre-determined that Nanoha would come up with a staff with a big red ball and a curvy bit around it at one end, or that pink would appear anywhere in the design, any more than her barrier jacket was predetermined to resemble a school uniform with metal bits and more foo-foo.

At the same time, we know that it's at least possible to create a device whose manifestation is at least somewhat up to the creator, because that's what Shari is doing, and the barrier jackets created by the device are at least nominally influenced by the captains' jackets. That said, they're still hardly uniform, they're still pretty custom, and the only one that really actually looks like the captain's uniform is Subaru's jacket (and, er, Subaru herself is also pretty influenced by Nanoha!)

To explain the TSAB, it makes at least a little sense to say "cultural issues". Honestly, that might explain a whole bunch about their Keystone Kops-like ineptitude! ;p Militaries do tend to ossify their thinking if they're in peacetime for a long time, and the TSAB has other signs of that sort of thing too (like rank inflation!) Maybe the original "staves" really did have to be staff-like to start with? If your soldiers are used to their magic thingies looking like staves, then culturally, they're going to want to carry around staves. (This goes double if the pre-TSAB society equated magic power with status, and thus a magic staff would be a symbol of rank too - same reason we still use gold braid on military uniforms, for example.) By the time you get more advanced devices that really can look like what the user wants, there's a more-or-less standard "I am a magic staff" appearance and most people just stick with it. The fact that it's outdated may not stop them - Poland attempted to hold back the Wehrmacht with horse cavalry! ;p

One final argument - we know that the Gadgets are pretty resistant to magic, and can only be damaged by magical attacks if they are (a) really overpowered, e.g. Nanoha, (b) hax, e.g. Teana, or (c) physical in nature. Subaru can punch out a gadget because she's actually hitting it, not ramming it with a big bunch of magic. Vita's attacks are effective against the drones; this implies that the balls she's calling up out of nowhere are actually physical objects, as are Zafira's spikes. For that matter, we never see anyone break the Tank Barrier, and given that Vita's magical effects tend to focus on physical manifestations, maybe it -also- really exists? (Like, it looks like a crystal shield 'cause it is one?)
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Old 2008-01-17, 13:00   Link #471
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
That was Precia's intention. Jail obviously thought differently, especially concidering the real Alicia had no magic potential at all. Then there are the other examples, of whom one is another prodigy at magic and the other the 'end boss' of StrikerS.
Yet Erio is considered a rekka copy (inferior copy) of the original Erio. It is likely the original, dead Erio would have been even stronger.

And Vivio was obviously a copy of someone who was l33t.

In Fate's case, it was clear that there was no intent to make someone super l33t.
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Old 2008-01-17, 13:30   Link #472
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The point is that Nanoha is not the designer of RH. Thus you cannot use her wishes to determine how RH was originally designed.
Well, she was the one that could imagine what it'd look like. Had she imagined a rifle, would it have changed Raising Heart's function?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Further, a vague concept of "beating the enemy" does not a Techno-Tactical Requirement make.
That's... sort of the point of a weapon isn't it? Beating the enemy?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
If they get equal performance, the guy on manual.
... Darn, I just talked myself stuck, didn't I?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Yes, the presentation of the sight itself is a method of support. I just don't see how that evolved into an auto arm-jerking function, or how even if there is an auto arm-jerking function it is a better solution.
I think this started with whether it would be better to have a rifle or a staff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
As far as I can see, RH merely fired off the magic. I still don't see RH jerking the arms around. Quite frankly, if RH can jerk arms around, it might have blocked Fate's blow when they fought in that onsen.
You're stil; saying jerking as if the staff would make 180 degree turns, its a small nudge hardly noticable at all unless you aim the complete other way.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Not really. If you have already expended entire megatons of energy forming your weapon, don't you think you'll want to look for the part instead of burning it again?
Which is why I'm saying it doesn't take megatons of energy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Try that subspace bag thing. I don't like subspace bags but it fits the evidence better than the idea she was annihilated into energy and still somehow maintained her will and then managed to reconstitute herself.
Right, soooo how did she get there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, my judgment went like this: Team A follows ergonomics. Team B does not. Team B has no obvious reasons for ignoring ergonomics. Thus, Team A is probably brighter.
And yet Team B is known and praised as the elites, often being the best with a slip-up or two. Team A screws up and becomes depressed about it. Getting themselves in danger or even giving up their jobs.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I find it stunning you could agree that a Barrier Jacket is made out of magical energy, but insist that there is no way a staff could be made out of the same method, preferring the huge costs of matter-energy conversion.
....

Wait, roll back, I think we are completely talking past eachother, let's start from the basic idea:

What I think, and what I have always been saying, as that both Devices and Barrier Jackets are made out of magical energy turned into the eventual solid material.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Yet Erio is considered a rekka copy (inferior copy) of the original Erio. It is likely the original, dead Erio would have been even stronger.

And Vivio was obviously a copy of someone who was l33t.

In Fate's case, it was clear that there was no intent to make someone super l33t.
Well, Fate was concidered an 'inferior copy' as well, and yet in terms of magical capabillities she exceeded Alicia. Also, once more, the intention came from Jail. I mean hell, he even went ranting in episode 24 about how great the powers of Project F were, even praising his results on Fate seconds before getting homerunned.
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Old 2008-01-17, 14:27   Link #473
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Arrow

About the long-range capabilities of Nanoha, I'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned Ep03 of the first season yet. Here we have a canonical example where Nanoha has to shoot beyond the horizon, and at some points of the shooting, has her eyes closed, meaning that physical sight is not necessary to aim at the target.

Cheers.
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Old 2008-01-17, 15:18   Link #474
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Good point, Skane. Not so much about over-the-horizon (it looked like she did have LOS, even if it was a pretty long-range sniping job), but about the verification of sensory feedback from the device to the user. Also A's 5, where Nanoha nails the four incoming Flying Swallow balls with her Accel Shooter - another example of eyes-closed shooting.

Given that, maybe the user is actually aiming, but with feedback from the device? "Up a little... to the left... back to the right a bit... 'kay, that's dead on"? I don't know if I buy that, though, because that still leaves a lot up to the actual user's muscle control. But it's obvious that there's no need for "iron sights" - the device is actually looking for the target with its own sensory capabilities, and can pass those on to the user, so you don't have to be able to bring anything in line with your eyeball in order to see the sight picture. Nor is an actual display required, because we know that the devices can kick targeting information back to the user even with the user's eyes closed.

Barrier jackets... interesting thought. Obviously they act in cloth-like fashion, they get scuffed up and dirty, they tear like cloth and not like, say, plate armor. But at the same time, Nanoha's barrier jacket deconstructs interestingly when she gets walloped by Vita. Perhaps this points to some kind of emergency-reactive mode, something akin to what Fate triggers manually with her Purge? But we don't ever see that kind of reaction again, and we've seen the jackets take several different varieties of damage where they react like real cloth. (Fate's, especially, tends to fray under large beamspam stress! Or, er, her mom.) So it's too much to say "oh, they're an energy matrix that just happens to resemble clothing", I think, but there's obviously more going on than just a spiffy costume backed by a force field.

I'm not comfortable with saying "mass converted to energy" because a very small amount of mass equates to a ginormous amount of energy, as others in the thread have helpfully pointed out. If RH could form a staff from a little ball, it's got enough energy to crack the planet open like a nut. It's much easier to envision the matter to be summoned (either from an unspecified location, from a pocket dimension, from some sort of elemental plane of whatever, or who knows) and then assembled on the spot by the devices.

Interestingly, the devices have "parts" that are "changed out" on more than one occasion. Even though RH and Bardiche are just little crystal thingies at the time... and some of the parts clearly refer to things which exist outside of the core when manifested, like the cartridge system. So maybe the devices are merely assembling themselves from parts that already exist? But then this runs into the "you can restore Bardiche by pouring some magic into it" problem. Could be a little of both, or that the devices actually have really freakin' good auto-repair systems and access to spare mass (or that Bardiche "picked up" the broken portion of its staff when it restored itself - we didn't see where it went.) Of course this could also be crap, and the parts refer to things inside the core of the device which actually generate the functional bits on manifestation. We don't ever see anyone with the "hood" up, working on a device, so to speak. We do see plenty of Shari peck-pecking away at keyboards while ostensibly "working" on a device, so probably there's a lot of programming involved...
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Old 2008-01-17, 15:19   Link #475
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
About the long-range capabilities of Nanoha, I'm a little surprised that no one has mentioned Ep03 of the first season yet. Here we have a canonical example where Nanoha has to shoot beyond the horizon, and at some points of the shooting, has her eyes closed, meaning that physical sight is not necessary to aim at the target.

Cheers.
That seems REALLY debatable IMO… First off the scene is jumping all over the place during it without a single long or wide shot showing the shot to established a definite or even vague distance. Second the target is immobile I don’t doubt that a mage could hit an immobile point target at longer ranges, but that’s not really the issue here as sadly in combat your targets are rarely so obliging as to stand still for you to blast them. Third you’re just flat out wrong about her eyes she closes them for a moment to concentrate before her second shot but opens them before she fires and she never closes them period during the first shot.

Then we get into the fact she not even technically really shooting at something she’s using a sealing spell on it which may or may not require precise targeting, and lastly (though scene is so spastic it’s acutally hard to tell what’s happening) the shot seems to be arching toward it’s target and thus could well be guided or perhaps even homing on the jewel seed. In any case none of the shots in the scene really give anything I can see that could be used to gain a true sense of the range involved of the shot, but given the laundry list of mitigating factors I just listed it barely matter this is an outlier in the truest sense of the word. This event was perpetuated by a highly specific set of circumstance with little applicability to more generalized and common battles and that has virtually nothing like it seen again which reinforces that point.
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Old 2008-01-17, 15:31   Link #476
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*Stares at argument*

...can't we just all agree that the writers of the show have no fucking clue what they're writing about? If they did, we wouldn't be having this problem.
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Old 2008-01-17, 15:32   Link #477
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*Stares at argument*

...can't we just all agree that the writers of the show have no fucking clue what they're writing about? If they did, we wouldn't be having this problem.
Generally speaking most writers I think don't believe their viewers will apply real life logic to their shows or writing. Really. Stuff happens in anime because stuff is meant to happen that way. Bringing real life logic into it just makes things overly complex.
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Old 2008-01-17, 15:40   Link #478
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90% of the fans doesn't. Hell, even I'm pretty willing to accept 'it's magic' as an explanation for many things. This board just happens to hold a few members of the 10% that does apply real logic to magic (which in itself is quite the paradox, come to think of it).
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Old 2008-01-17, 15:45   Link #479
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As a saying of the internet goes:
"Everytime you bring up logic into a anime, god kills a catgirl. Please. Think of the catgirls."

Something like that. I mean... You could stand here and debate all day, but the simple matter of the fact is... Nanoha's 'technology' is magic. You can't really explain it.
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Old 2008-01-17, 15:49   Link #480
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Personally I like applying logic to the Nanoha-verse (or any other anime), because it's my idea of entertainment.

Also, fanfic writers appear to be held to a higher standard of universe consistency and logic than the actual series writers.
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