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Old 2008-01-17, 15:52   Link #481
Keroko
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Except if its Naruto fanfiction, then logic is usually thrown further out the window then in the series itself.

Though I think the real problem is that Nanoha makes an effort to try and make things apear scientifically instead of going 'lol magic!' That tends to set a spark, especially when they only do so sporadically. Most of the people will have the info fly way over their heads, and shrug, assuming it to be right. Those who don't try to make sense of it, and end up here.
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Old 2008-01-17, 15:59   Link #482
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That sounds right. Since Nanoha makes the distinction that "This isn't magic-magic... We use technology to use our magic!" it, I guess, makes people want to view it with our human logic.

Naruto never had logic in fanfiction. I bet you all those 100,000s of fics are 99.99% crummy yaoi slash fics.
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Old 2008-01-17, 16:14   Link #483
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The problem is that people here tend to view things from a purely scientific point of view, forgetting that this show is a magic show first and foremost. Certain things can and will happen that cannot be explained with normal science.

As for Naruto... its lots of yaoi, lots of straight, but almost always beyond any scope of reason. "Oh hey, I'm Kyuubi, but I'm actually good. Orochimaru put a genjutsu on me, which made me go berserk but I'm okay now so I'll help you train and use my chakra even though its supposed to be lethal. I'll let you sign the fox contract too, even though no-one has ever heard of it. Oh, and I'm a girl too, despite everything in the series pointing towards the fact that I'm a guy."

Same riddle is used for Itachi often too "Orochimaru did it" seems to be a favourite theme. Makes me glad things here are somewhat more... sane.
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Old 2008-01-17, 16:19   Link #484
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The Nanoha section is totally sane. Just the OC section and here are probably a bit insane. A bit.

But I suppose that makes sense... Then I guess we just have people who like to try and make everything sound logical (I'm not one of them. Most of your stuff makes no sense to me at all XD)
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Old 2008-01-17, 16:41   Link #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The problem is that people here tend to view things from a purely scientific point of view, forgetting that this show is a magic show first and foremost. Certain things can and will happen that cannot be explained with normal science.
More like you’re simply unwilling to consider such explanations instead preferring to ram your fingers in your ears and yell “magic, magic, magic!” like an unthinking stooge. Nanoha has a few fantastical elements… and a whole fuck ton of science fiction. Science is just as, hell it's MORE appropriate for analysis and it’s certainly better then the simpleton approach of just yelling “its magic!” instead of trying to formulate theories on it's workings. If that kind of shit flew we’d still be grinding rocks against other rocks and cowering in our caves in fear of the thunder god.

Science exists to explain things we see if we see something new we don’t just hurl out everything and declare science as useless. We study the phenomenon and formulate new theories to explain it, its limits, and it’s effect. Science isn’t a monolithic “thing“ it’s a thought process, a WAY of thinking about the world around us in a logical and productive manner. This is a fact all too few people seem to grasp nowadays instead looking at things subjectively and “feeling” them or just accepting they’ll never understand something instead of striving to do so. Magic dosen't somehow elminate science it merely demands adaptation and new theories as magic clearly has rules and limits.

People that dismiss it or say it can't be used to explain something are really saying "I don't want to try and explain this as I like being able to think whatever I want with no backing whatsoever since Jesus loves me, the world is flat, and it was made in seven days!"

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Old 2008-01-17, 16:53   Link #486
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I rest my case. Anyway, Tk, maybe you accidentally missed the last few pages, but what do you think I was doing? Did that even vaguely look like screaming 'magic, magic, magic!' to you?
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Old 2008-01-17, 17:51   Link #487
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Except that in the case of Nanoha, we have NFI what those rules and limits -are-. The show does not elucidate a grand unified theory of magic. We do not know how magic interfaces with conventional laws of physics. Certain things work and are ascribed to magic. Certain things work -which are not supposed to work-, even in the context of the show. Nanoha was able to boot Raising Heart without the proper boot-up sequence - that's not supposed to happen! There are additional types of magic which the characters in the show do not themselves understand (Lost Logia, "ancient magic", yadda yadda) but which work anyway.

In that context, it's foolish to think that the show describes in detail every conventional use of magic or every possible use of magic.

Trying to pretend to use scientific analysis on a show like this is both pretentious and futile. You can't actually examine anything but the footage and the dialogue. That which is within one or the other of those must be accounted for, even if it doesn't make rational sense. But that doesn't mean that the world is 100% normal outside of that footage and dialogue, that everything not explicitly detailed is purely mundane.

There's plenty that happens within the show that can't be explained conventionally. Some of it's explicitly magic (alla spells and stuff.) Some of it's implicitly magic (nobody misses even though ergonomics of a magic staff make for a lousy gun.) Some of it's probably not magic but defies other explanations (why are the cakes at Midoriya so damn tasty?)
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Old 2008-01-17, 17:52   Link #488
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Keroko is correct. It is me who decides to just "say it is magic" because, honestly, most of us aren't going to want to bother to apply real life logic or any sort of science to things. It must makes life easier.

For me anyway. All this talk makes my head hurt.
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Old 2008-01-17, 20:21   Link #489
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Except that in the case of Nanoha, we have NFI what those rules and limits -are-. The show does not elucidate a grand unified theory of magic.
For that matter, science-fiction shows do not show a grand unified theory of their created science either.

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We do not know how magic interfaces with conventional laws of physics.
In this, humans are a godsend. Their very presence shows that in fact almost all laws must effectively be the same to the ones we've already determined in our world (anthropic principle). The fact that there is a fully functional, non-magical Earth only reinforces this.

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Certain things work and are ascribed to magic. Certain things work -which are not supposed to work-, even in the context of the show. Nanoha was able to boot Raising Heart without the proper boot-up sequence - that's not supposed to happen!
When you take it in the context of the whole show, it is the proper bootups that are the rarity. Yunno is obviously just confused.

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In that context, it's foolish to think that the show describes in detail every conventional use of magic or every possible use of magic.
Does not mean we don't analyze it.
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Old 2008-01-17, 21:02   Link #490
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Well, she was the one that could imagine what it'd look like. Had she imagined a rifle, would it have changed Raising Heart's function?
Let's start with: Had she imagined a rifle, would a rifle even have come out? Even in Ep1, it is clear that what came out is not exactly what was imagined - unless you believe Nanoha imagined a staff that would vent steam and have cylinders! When one aggregates the data in the whole show, it is likely that there are limits in the range of adaptation. Probably Shooting and Buster were RH's best emulations of a rifle.

(OF course, the real issue is because they suddenly altered the show's course around Ep6/7ish, but SoD, SoD, SoD!)

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That's... sort of the point of a weapon isn't it? Beating the enemy?
Yeah, but that does not a Techno-Tactical Requirement make. That involves thought on the nature of combat and how you plan to defeat the enemy. Even watching our characters you see a variety of approaches to this basic problem.

The best a device can do is to be well suited to its TTR.

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I think this started with whether it would be better to have a rifle or a staff.
I think your heart knows which is better. That's why you are fantasizing.

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You're stil; saying jerking as if the staff would make 180 degree turns, its a small nudge hardly noticable at all unless you aim the complete other way.
It won't feel much like a gentle nudge when you think you've aimed it, and then the thing moves.

By the way, Mach Caliber at least had a spell recorded that can be used to actually move (really it is a jerk) itself (and coincidentally its Master). What does RH use.

Frankly, I must say that I don't understand your love for mechanical stabilization over electronic. At least the latter is only unproven.

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Which is why I'm saying it doesn't take megatons of energy.
The corrolary is that it must use a process that does not require megatons of energy. Which rules out M-E conversion.

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Right, soooo how did she get there?
Teleportation variant.

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And yet Team B is known and praised as the elites, often being the best with a slip-up or two. Team A screws up and becomes depressed about it. Getting themselves in danger or even giving up their jobs.
Elites? Elite (single) is more like it. Fate and Hayate have different CONOPS. What should be in Team B, however, are all those normal mages we saw. You know, those who run even before the first shot is fired at them. Or those who were wiped out in the sky by 3 and 7. Or those who were shooting at drones from 10m and not getting noticeable hits. Now, that really puts things in perspective, no?

UPDATE: Oh yeah, and said elite managed to blow 8% of her magic power in the fight. Team A got away scot-free. Hmm...

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....

Wait, roll back, I think we are completely talking past eachother, let's start from the basic idea:

What I think, and what I have always been saying, as that both Devices and Barrier Jackets are made out of magical energy turned into the eventual solid material.
Or a simulation of such. The latter does not require energies we've never seen the mages themselves harness.

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Well, Fate was concidered an 'inferior copy' as well, and yet in terms of magical capabillities she exceeded Alicia. Also, once more, the intention came from Jail. I mean hell, he even went ranting in episode 24 about how great the powers of Project F were, even praising his results on Fate seconds before getting homerunned.
I'm sure the man in Erio's scene was not thinking about it in terms of how close he was to the original Erio. Scarlietti was just being a prick to the end.

Come to think of it, even if I accept that Fate's magical power was somehow boosted, what does this have to do with her intelligence. Neither Vivio or Erio looked real bright.

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Old 2008-01-17, 21:12   Link #491
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There isn't a non-magical Earth in Nanoha, though. Magic works there, right? We know for a fact that Nanoha is not the only mage from Earth (and, for that matter, that they're unusual but not unknown - Gil knows of enough other cases to be able to generalize about it. So while we can make certain assumptions about physical constants being constant and the like, anthropic-principle style, we can't assume outright that it's a totally-historical Earth either, just that it is so far. Viewing an Earth in the 18th century would not give you much information about whether nuclear power was possible; viewing Nanoha's Earth doesn't tell you that magical effects are possible (unless, heh, you wander near Uminari...)

Your comment about Yuuno is, I think, the key difference between how we're viewing the show. Yuuno is -not- confused. He's pretty intelligent (for a ferret, heh) and obviously well-versed in magic, or he couldn't do the things that we see him do. Fact is, RH does something for Nanoha that Yuuno could not have gotten it to do - or at least that he didn't believe he could have gotten it to do, and he's neither an idiot nor an uninformed party. It's completely reasonable to assume that if Yuuno is surprised by Nanoha's abilities, that is because they are, in context, surprising!
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Old 2008-01-17, 22:07   Link #492
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Good point, Skane. Not so much about over-the-horizon (it looked like she did have LOS, even if it was a pretty long-range sniping job), but about the verification of sensory feedback from the device to the user. Also A's 5, where Nanoha nails the four incoming Flying Swallow balls with her Accel Shooter - another example of eyes-closed shooting.
Wasn't that homing?

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But it's obvious that there's no need for "iron sights" - the device is actually looking for the target with its own sensory capabilities, and can pass those on to the user, so you don't have to be able to bring anything in line with your eyeball in order to see the sight picture. Nor is an actual display required, because we know that the devices can kick targeting information back to the user even with the user's eyes closed.
Once you get used to it, bomb's eye view is indeed a sighting method. However, it neglects the other reason why long range rifle shoots are braced on the shoulder (preferably, a bipod or even tripod is also used)

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Barrier jackets... interesting thought. Obviously they act in cloth-like fashion, they get scuffed up and dirty, they tear like cloth and not like, say, plate armor. But at the same time, Nanoha's barrier jacket deconstructs interestingly when she gets walloped by Vita. Perhaps this points to some kind of emergency-reactive mode, something akin to what Fate triggers manually with her Purge?
Personally, such events gives me a high confidence that the base material is indeed magical energy. It is actually hard to explain these events if the jackets are matter. The explosion is nowhere near equal to what will be produced by returning the likely mass of the jacket back to energy. Subspace matter bag theories are even harder to explain - what energy advantage will moving the BJ back to subspace gain?

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But we don't ever see that kind of reaction again, and we've seen the jackets take several different varieties of damage where they react like real cloth. (Fate's, especially, tends to fray under large beamspam stress! Or, er, her mom.)
Forcefields can crack and break. Reference: Real Matter, or Ep 5A Panzer Hidernis. In fact, the beamspam thing actually is in support of it being magic, not against. Note that Fate's while her BJ is being ripped apart by the stress, the same is not true of her skin. She doesn't even get cut or anything. This suggest the whole thing was completely magical.

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I'm not comfortable with saying "mass converted to energy" because a very small amount of mass equates to a ginormous amount of energy, as others in the thread have helpfully pointed out. If RH could form a staff from a little ball, it's got enough energy to crack the planet open like a nut.
Actually, not really by orders of magnitude. Planets are horribly resillient things. But the city's definitely a goner.

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Interestingly, the devices have "parts" that are "changed out" on more than one occasion. Even though RH and Bardiche are just little crystal thingies at the time... and some of the parts clearly refer to things which exist outside of the core when manifested, like the cartridge system. So maybe the devices are merely assembling themselves from parts that already exist? But then this runs into the "you can restore Bardiche by pouring some magic into it" problem. Could be a little of both, or that the devices actually have really freakin' good auto-repair systems and access to spare mass (or that Bardiche "picked up" the broken portion of its staff when it restored itself - we didn't see where it went.) Of course this could also be crap, and the parts refer to things inside the core of the device which actually generate the functional bits on manifestation. We don't ever see anyone with the "hood" up, working on a device, so to speak. We do see plenty of Shari peck-pecking away at keyboards while ostensibly "working" on a device, so probably there's a lot of programming involved...
Personally, I think she's pecking away so much because they are really almost all pseudomatter (except for the core Standby Form, which probably real matter). The parts are really just programs.
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Old 2008-01-17, 22:33   Link #493
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There isn't a non-magical Earth in Nanoha, though. Magic works there, right?
Yes, but the world as a whole is clearly non-magical. What magic is there is limited to the extent that we could have magic on our world and just never notice. For all practical purposes, it is an identical world. Same non-magical tech and so on.

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Your comment about Yuuno is, I think, the key difference between how we're viewing the show. Yuuno is -not- confused. He's pretty intelligent (for a ferret, heh) and obviously well-versed in magic, or he couldn't do the things that we see him do. Fact is, RH does something for Nanoha that Yuuno could not have gotten it to do - or at least that he didn't believe he could have gotten it to do, and he's neither an idiot nor an uninformed party. It's completely reasonable to assume that if Yuuno is surprised by Nanoha's abilities, that is because they are, in context, surprising!
While acknowledging the real reason: 7Arcs made a 90 degree hard turn in the middle of the first season...

In SoD, what happened is very simple. Yunno just doesn't know RH very well. We now know that ID as a class do not require complex incanatations to activate. Any such requirement is thus specific to RH, which apparently can waive it.

If you ask me, I think the spell is a backup forced activation method. Yunno is not good enough for RH, being a ferret. And he thinks Nanoha isn't good enough either. However, by mumbling that mumbo-jumbo, RH will be forced to start no matter what. But Nanoha is good enough for RH.
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Old 2008-01-17, 22:57   Link #494
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Guys, can we not do line-by-line? It makes the posts unreadable and the arguments difficult to follow. Break out your high school essay skills!

As a matter of fact, I did go to a school for geniuses. ;p I'm perfectly aware of the various issues associated with the physical composition of matter.
I see only one person got lost during that discussion.

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All I'm saying is that if something acts like it's matter, it's reasonable to assume that it -is- matter; devices get damaged in ways that suggest that the stuff they're made of is, er, really there, instead of a projection of some type.
Really. How "matterish" is it to just appear out of nowhere, or get damaged (at least w/ BJs) when skin does not?

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It's not unreasonable that they can summon their composition from "somewhere else" - Caro summons freakin' Godzilla at one point, so it's not a magical effect from outside the knowledge of people in the show!
Did you notice how summoning is a rare skill, or how long it takes to teleport, or even that not everyone knows how to transport yet can summon a barrier jacket?

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RH design... yeah yeah, original RH designer, but we -know- that its actual manifestation was at least partly up to Nanoha. That much is in the show. We can't hand-wave it away. It wasn't pre-determined that Nanoha would come up with a staff with a big red ball and a curvy bit around it at one end, or that pink would appear anywhere in the design, any more than her barrier jacket was predetermined to resemble a school uniform with metal bits and more foo-foo.
Quite frankly, the manifestations make me suspect the flex room was not all that great. Besides, Nanoha had no real ideas of combat when she first summoned the device, so why does everyone assume she chose the optimum combat form rather than something based on magical girl anime she watched everyday?
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Old 2008-01-18, 00:07   Link #495
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I see only one person got lost during that discussion.

*snip*

Quite frankly, the manifestations make me suspect the flex room was not all that great. Besides, Nanoha had no real ideas of combat when she first summoned the device, so why does everyone assume she chose the optimum combat form rather than something based on magical girl anime she watched everyday?
*Raises hand*. And I doubt I'm the only one.

Anyway, I don't think anyone has said that Nanoha's design is the optimum design for her weapon. What people have been saying is that physical sights and/or a stock for stablization is not necessary for optimum performance of the weapon. Maybe some people just prefer the things, like how some people like to drive automatic cars, while some like manuals. Do both get the job done? Sure. Does one or the other have advantages in certain situations? Yeah. Can you say conclusively that one or the other is better? I doubt it.

And what's to say that usage is the only viable explanation and reasoning for weapon design? I gave a number of possible social reasons for the (in your opinion) sub-par weapon designs. Conjecture, but is that very different from the scientific conjecture many are making at this point?

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Originally Posted by archangelsk
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV
Barrier jackets... interesting thought. Obviously they act in cloth-like fashion, they get scuffed up and dirty, they tear like cloth and not like, say, plate armor. But at the same time, Nanoha's barrier jacket deconstructs interestingly when she gets walloped by Vita. Perhaps this points to some kind of emergency-reactive mode, something akin to what Fate triggers manually with her Purge?
Personally, such events gives me a high confidence that the base material is indeed magical energy. It is actually hard to explain these events if the jackets are matter. The explosion is nowhere near equal to what will be produced by returning the likely mass of the jacket back to energy. Subspace matter bag theories are even harder to explain - what energy advantage will moving the BJ back to subspace gain?
The part in question is called "reactor parts", and archangelsk quoted the text for it a couple of posts ago. And yes, they are some form of reactive armor that blows away all the "maryoku" used in the creation of the barrier jacket outwards to deflect a blow. Do they mean that the barrier jacket itself is made of "maryoku", or do they mean specifically the "maryoku" used in the creation of the barrier jacket? Ambiguous, and can be interpreted either way.
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Old 2008-01-18, 00:36   Link #496
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*Raises hand*. And I doubt I'm the only one.

Anyway, I don't think anyone has said that Nanoha's design is the optimum design for her weapon. What people have been saying is that physical sights and/or a stock for stablization is not necessary for optimum performance of the weapon. Maybe some people just prefer the things, like how some people like to drive automatic cars, while some like manuals. Do both get the job done? Sure. Does one or the other have advantages in certain situations? Yeah. Can you say conclusively that one or the other is better? I doubt it.
To me, you don't get it both ways. If you can agree that Nanoha's weapon is not optimally designed, why do you insist that a stock is useless? Isn't it more reasonable to figure a stock is helpful, and Nanoha's doesn't have it because it is not optimally designed, and not fantasizing about arm-jerk stabilizers that have not been shown?

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And what's to say that usage is the only viable explanation and reasoning for weapon design? I gave a number of possible social reasons for the (in your opinion) sub-par weapon designs. Conjecture, but is that very different from the scientific conjecture many are making at this point?
I don't mind social reasons for subpar weapons design. In fact, it is probably the best available idea ... but when someone tries to insist that good weapons design does not matter due to unproven technobabble, I get irked.

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The part in question are called reactor parts, and you quoted the text for it a couple of posts ago. And yes, they are some form of reactive armor that blows away all the "maryoku" used in the creation of the barrier jacket outwards to deflect a blow. Do they mean that the barrier jacket itself is made of "maryoku", or do they mean specifically the "maryoku" used in the creation of the barrier jacket? Ambiguous, and can be interpreted either way.
I suppose by the latter interpretation you mean assuming that maryoku is not the only material in it? But wouldn't that be introducing a complicating factor?
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Old 2008-01-18, 01:14   Link #497
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Originally Posted by selkirk
*Raises hand*. And I doubt I'm the only one.

Anyway, I don't think anyone has said that Nanoha's design is the optimum design for her weapon. What people have been saying is that physical sights and/or a stock for stablization is not necessary for optimum performance of the weapon. Maybe some people just prefer the things, like how some people like to drive automatic cars, while some like manuals. Do both get the job done? Sure. Does one or the other have advantages in certain situations? Yeah. Can you say conclusively that one or the other is better? I doubt it.

To me, you don't get it both ways. If you can agree that Nanoha's weapon is not optimally designed, why do you insist that a stock is useless? Isn't it more reasonable to figure a stock is helpful, and Nanoha's doesn't have it because it is not optimally designed, and not fantasizing about arm-jerk stabilizers that have not been shown?
Why can't it be not optimal, and still not require a stock? It could be not optimal in other ways, and perhaps having a stock is entirely a matter of preference. In any case, do we ever see any beams coming out exactly straight from the device's end? IIRC there's usually some space between the device and the projectile/beam, and in some cases an entire magic array or even magic ribbons forming a pseudo-barrel. The device could almost be seen as more of a cannon-like fuse lighter in those cases, with the array, ribbons and/or whatever programming available controlling any minute changes needed to correct aim. This is especially true for A's Ep02, where Nanoha actually swings RH in a pretty big arc to fire her Starlight Breaker... that can't be very accurate (of course, I doubt she needed great accuracy for what she was doing there ).
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Old 2008-01-18, 01:15   Link #498
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...I just had a thought.
What kind of energy do Devices run off of? Going with the discussion at hand, it's obvious that to do any kind of stuff that the Devices are doing in the series to support not only their users but themselves in a sense (inlcluding but not limited to things like Zamber Form, Strada's rocket boosters, and so forth). These obviously have to run off of something or other. Is it mentioned in the NanohaWiki anywhere?

Or does 7arcs just copout and go "oh by the way they run off of a mage's Linker Core" which is contrived and ridiculous because there's evidence that Devices can run under their own power, even if its limited (for example, requesting the Cartridge System).

Furthermore, instead of suggesting a subspace "bag" like TK mentioned, why not just assume the matter comes from another dimension? There's obviously more than the one most of the action takes place in. From what I recall, the Garden was in a dimension all its own; apparently Al-Hazard in displaced in one by itself; TSAB ships travel through Dimensional Space, which appears to be their version of FTL (though it's not really FTL); the TSAB HQ also seems to be in one of its own.

Could it be easy to assume, then, that there's another dimension that Devices are tuned to, and pull matter out of it?

EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong, but when mages cast the Barrier spell that surrounds an area, doesn't that displace things half a dimension over?
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Old 2008-01-18, 02:18   Link #499
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Kagerou's first...

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...I just had a thought.
What kind of energy do Devices run off of? Going with the discussion at hand, it's obvious that to do any kind of stuff that the Devices are doing in the series to support not only their users but themselves in a sense (inlcluding but not limited to things like Zamber Form, Strada's rocket boosters, and so forth). These obviously have to run off of something or other. Is it mentioned in the NanohaWiki anywhere?

Or does 7arcs just copout and go "oh by the way they run off of a mage's Linker Core" which is contrived and ridiculous because there's evidence that Devices can run under their own power, even if its limited (for example, requesting the Cartridge System).
I'm sure they can store a limited amount of charge (like a computer's CMOS battery), but it is obvious to do anything important they must be plugged in.

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Furthermore, instead of suggesting a subspace "bag" like TK mentioned, why not just assume the matter comes from another dimension? There's obviously more than the one most of the action takes place in. From what I recall, the Garden was in a dimension all its own; apparently Al-Hazard in displaced in one by itself; TSAB ships travel through Dimensional Space, which appears to be their version of FTL (though it's not really FTL); the TSAB HQ also seems to be in one of its own.

Could it be easy to assume, then, that there's another dimension that Devices are tuned to, and pull matter out of it?
But that's just replacing a "subspace" bag with a dimensional one. In essence it is no different.

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EDIT: Correct me if I'm wrong, but when mages cast the Barrier spell that surrounds an area, doesn't that displace things half a dimension over?
It is not clear what barriers do, but the explanation (provided by the characters) makes no sense.

Somehow, only non-mage humans and maybe animals are brought "out of line" with the dimension. Plants and buildings all remain.

The best I can think of out of a particularly horrible (even among anime kekkai) situation is that the barrier actually pushes on wills and souls. Things without wills (like buildings or trees) are not affected (no interaction), but weak wills (insignificant magic power) are shoved out of the timeline and the "attached" body goes along with them. Fortunately, they don't die because they are pushed out of the timeline and without time passing they aren't affected. The strong resist the pressure and can stay in the timeline.

This might provide an explanation for why kekkai are not used on Midchildra. While weak, many if not most Midchildrans got some magic power and will stay in the timeline. The barrier will only make sure they cannot escape. Thus it became doctrine in the TSAB not to use barriers even when they are great help in arresting criminals.

The whole "push on will" stuff would also explain how Vita seemed to use the spell as a detector. Nanoha was a stubborn spot that won't go down!

Yeah, pretty crappy. I know. Let's see yours then. At least kekkai in other places have the good grace of leaving the innocents there but frozen (say Shakugan no Shana) so we can pretend they just did something with time...
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-01-18, 02:46   Link #500
arkhangelsk
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Originally Posted by selkirk View Post
Why can't it be not optimal, and still not require a stock? It could be not optimal in other ways,
It may well be, but that is outside the scope of our discussion.

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and perhaps having a stock is entirely a matter of preference.
I can almost buy this until I saw that pros don't agree that stocks are "entirely a matter of preference."

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In any case, do we ever see any beams coming out exactly straight from the device's end? IIRC there's usually some space between the device and the projectile/beam, and in some cases an entire magic array or even magic ribbons forming a pseudo-barrel. The device could almost be seen as more of a cannon-like fuse lighter in those cases, with the array, ribbons and/or whatever programming available controlling any minute changes needed to correct aim.
Yet they tend to be placed in front of the device's "nose" and shoot forward. What you are proposing is electronic beam steering. My comments on that are available in previous posts.

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This is especially true for A's Ep02, where Nanoha actually swings RH in a pretty big arc to fire her Starlight Breaker... that can't be very accurate (of course, I doubt she needed great accuracy for what she was doing there ).
That's clearly not an aimed shot.
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