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Old 2008-01-18, 03:01   Link #501
Tk3997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I'm sure they can store a limited amount of charge (like a computer's CMOS battery), but it is obvious to do anything important they must be plugged in.
I always figured devices likely function essentially like familiars in this regard always taking a very small trickle of power from the owner for basic system upkeep. The mana cost is probably miniscule with even very weak mages barely noticing it. Assuming its component’s in storage form are solid state even if this ran dry the device would merely “hibernate” until it obtained a new power source. I can’t recall if we’ve seen any incidents of it but this likely means that when a device’s owner is killed (assuming it survives) it likely ceases to function unless passed on to another user.

Quote:
But that's just replacing a "subspace" bag with a dimensional one. In essence it is no different.
Pretty much, it also has the same issue as both pesudomatter and EM conversion in that it would give the device an basiclly unlimited ability to self repair which they clearly don't have.

Quote:
It is not clear what barriers do, but the explanation (provided by the characters) makes no sense.

Somehow, only non-mage humans and maybe animals are brought "out of line" with the dimension. Plants and buildings all remain.

The best I can think of out of a particularly horrible (even among anime kekkai) situation is that the barrier actually pushes on wills and souls. Things without wills (like buildings or trees) are not affected (no interaction), but weak wills (insignificant magic power) are shoved out of the timeline and the "attached" body goes along with them. Fortunately, they don't die because they are pushed out of the timeline and without time passing they aren't affected. The strong resist the pressure and can stay in the timeline.

This might provide an explanation for why kekkai are not used on Midchildra. While weak, many if not most Midchildrans got some magic power and will stay in the timeline. The barrier will only make sure they cannot escape. Thus it became doctrine in the TSAB not to use barriers even when they are great help in arresting criminals.

The whole "push on will" stuff would also explain how Vita seemed to use the spell as a detector. Nanoha was a stubborn spot that won't go down!

Yeah, pretty crappy. I know. Let's see yours then. At least kekkai in other places have the good grace of leaving the innocents there but frozen (say Shakugan no Shana) so we can pretend they just did something with time...
Barriers are really one of those handful elements of Nanoha that even I kind of write off as "it's magic" since as above pretty much any explanation you care to come up with isn't going to involve much int he way of actual physics. Really barriers were pretty clearly a blatant plot device introduced to allow for insanely flashy and pyrotechnic battles without having to worry about those pesky civilians or blowing the masquerade. Just see how once they entered a setting where magic was know they suddenly pretty much vanish of course that's not much of an explanation in universe...
I do like this idea for why we don't see barriers deployed on Mid though it seems like a fairly tiddy little excuse for why the barriers suddenly vanished. that said barriers are also fairly clearly at least somewhat taxing to maintain and can be destroyed so when the need for stealth is removed and they won't even get allot of noncombatants out of the area it probably just seem less attractive all around. This likely holds on pretty much any planet with a viable mage population.

On another note I also was thinking about you force field idea and think I might have stumbled upon a bit of a sticky wicket in it... Namely I think we can both agree a device when deployed seems to have a mass proportional to it's size yes? And force fields kind of umm... don't.
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Old 2008-01-18, 04:23   Link #502
Kagerou
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Device Power:
I'm guessing it also depends on the Device type itself. Storage Devices I would guess take very little energy to use, since they provide the mage no actual support of any sort. They have no AI (exception: Durandal) other than basic spell function, and so probably just serve as a conduit for spell focus, or something.

Armed Devices would be next up, though to me it seems that they would only use power when active. IIRC, Armed Devices don't speak while in passive mode, only in active. Intelligent Devices, obviously, would take the most power, as even in a passive state, they have fully functioning AI and still allow the mage to cast spells.

(Note: For those of you who might not know, Wireless Energy Transfer is possible.)

Which suddenly brings up another point: Is there really a purpose to Storage Devices? I mean, we see Nanoha cast Divine Shooter without the use of Raising Heart in the first episode of A's, and in the series prior Fate is able to summon her cape without the help of Bardiche. The anime, I believe (correct me if I'm wrong), implies that a Device is required to focus mana for attack. Now, with an Intelligent Device (I'm ignoring the fact that Nanoha and Fate are uber-powerful for this demonstration), there's a good chance they help passively (or actively in Mach Caliber's case), by making adjustment's to a mage's spell before casting it.

This goes back to the previous argument of ergonomics. The reason Nanoha doesn't need them is because Raising Heart is not only an Intelligent Device, but probably an advanced Intelligent Device. My reasoning is this (a good bit of this is subjective, so feel free to toss it out the window): Throughout the first two seasons, Nanoha relies on Raising Heart to do a lot for her, including spell casting using the Device as a focus, flight, and adjusting spells like Divine Shooter for her (this last bit is definitely debatable, but I'm guessing the first time Nanoha cast the spell RH did a lot of the homing work).

By A's, this has lessened to a degree, and we see Nanoha cast Divine Shooter on her own, with no AI support of any sort (unless you count RH serving as a counting tool ). By StrikerS, she casts Crossfire Shoot and Divine Buster without RH's help (which is now doubling as a PDA of sorts).

My point is this: Mages, once they've learned magic to a certain point, can cast spells without the need for a Device to support them. Storage Devices have no ability to support the mage. So what's the need for a Storage Device to exist? Does not having one somehow increase the amount of mana needed for a spell? Do they serve as a focus of sorts?

...then again, it's highly likely I'm completely downplaying the need for a Storage Device.

Pseudomatter:
...well okay I didn't think about them being one and the same. But I don't think Devices are ever stated as having a limited amount of matter at their disposal. Really, IMO, it would depend on how much energy a mage can pump into the Device to force it to summon parts. A Device can regenerate itself so long as the mage wielding as power to provide it.

It's the same concept behind a Barrier Jacket/Knight Armor. A mage can use it to protect him/herself so long as there's energy to burn.

Barrier Spell:
I think we can all agree that was only the most useless spell to exist. Like TK said, it's only purpose was so there wouldn't be any civilians running around.

Actually, it might be even simpler: They use the Barrier spell because 7arcs didn't want to animate people flipping out (if you'll notice in StrikerS, any surprise by the Gadget Drones has a conspicuous lack of people other than the main characters).

And I disagree with the reasoning for using Barrier spells on Mid. To paraphrase TK on the OC thread about 300 pages ago: There simply aren't that many people who can do magic.

Okay nevermind I found the post:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
I still find the idea of 90% of a population being able to be mages of any rank to be very unlikely.
But then, since we hardly see any civilians, this is a hard thing to judge.
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Old 2008-01-18, 04:59   Link #503
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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Pretty much, it also has the same issue as both pesudomatter and EM conversion in that it would give the device an basiclly unlimited ability to self repair which they clearly don't have.
The key IMO is the "core" that Fate refers to in Ep2. That's core is somewhere in the standby state. The program for the creation of the device is placed there. The rest can all be pseudomatter or in subspace or still in energy form for the matter. As long as the core is fine and mage has magic energy reserves, you just concentrate and the device restores (unless, in the subspace bag theory the bag runs out of usable matter). Even if you don't, the auto-repair will slowly diagnose which parts were bent and smooth out the forcefields (call up matter, convert...) using the battery power (slow movements use less energy). But damage the core even slightly, and the program is incomplete, and that's when it stops self recovery.

Quote:
On another note I also was thinking about you force field idea and think I might have stumbled upon a bit of a sticky wicket in it... Namely I think we can both agree a device when deployed seems to have a mass proportional to it's size yes? And force fields kind of umm... don't.
On the other hand, we seem to have a variety of constructs which are built in this way, such as the Wolkenritter.

Again. Matter = forcefield. Matter = mass. Thus forcefields can have mass.

While the nature of magical "particles" is unknown, it is likely that the particle(s) making up magic will have some mass. Otherwise, it'll be hard to explain how they can be trapped into various stationary positions. Remember that the only velocity a particle with no mass can have is lightspeed.
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Old 2008-01-18, 05:11   Link #504
dkellis
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I'm not sure whether this should be asked in Magic And Tech or elsewhere, but I've been wondering:

What's up with the Abandoned City on Midchilda? It just seems odd that there's an entire city just there, in ruins and abandoned, and there doesn't seem to be any signs of reclamation or squatters.

Is there a story behind that? (Other than the obvious "urban combat possibilities without civilians" meta-explanation.)
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Old 2008-01-18, 05:21   Link #505
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Originally Posted by arkangelsk View Post
Again. Matter = forcefield. Matter = mass. Thus forcefields can have mass.
No, that's not it. Matter != forcefield. Solid = forcefield. The mass of solid matter comes from its constituent atoms, the field that binds them into solids has no mass by itself.
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Old 2008-01-18, 05:27   Link #506
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I'll try to list out what I remember from the DVD booklet articles...
  1. Magic spells are prepared and set as a "program" in the user's body or in a Magic Activation Complex (魔法の発動体 - Mahou no Hatsudoutai)
    • Devices are a type of Magic Activation Complex. The cards used in A's are likely MACs as well.
  2. To actually form the spell, you need to provide mana (魔力 - Maryoku).
  3. "Raw" Mana is absorbed from the atmosphere into the user's Linker Core, where it is "linked" together and stored.
    • Note on Belkan magic: Belkans can fight without having to use "linked" mana. (Knuckleduster article)
    • An Anti Magilink Field increases the rate at which linked mana breaks apart, making it harder to form a spell since the spell will just fall apart before it's assembled.
  4. Processed "linked" mana can then be used to form a spell.
  5. The spell can then be activated through a chant, or just through concentration.
Can we all at least agree to something like this? Am I missing anything?

EDIT: Actually, all this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I must be going crazy .

For anyone saying that the attacks don't miss or don't need user input, well, Teana's Phantom Blazer attack:
Quote:
ファントムブレイザー - Phantom Blazer
ティアナの「遠距離狙撃砲」。環状魔法陣の代わりにターゲットリングを使用。遠距離の際にはレーザーサイト を併用することで命中精度を高めている。ティアナの攻撃中最大の威力を設定しているが、発射には時間がかか る。
Teana's "long range sniper cannon attack". Uses a Target Ring instead of a circular magic array. When fired at long range, a laser sight is also used, increasing the accuracy of the spell. Out of all of Teana's skills, Phantom Blazer has the highest power, but it takes time for the attack to activate.
Concerning devices:
Quote:
デバイス - Devices
魔導師たちが魔法の発動体として使用する精密機器。
杖状のものはじめ、さまざまな形状・種別がある。
魔法データの保存や発動補助、打撃武器としての使用等、使用法も個人によって様々に異なる。中でも人工知能 を組み込んだタイプは「インテリジェントデバイス」とよばれ、術者とともに経験やデータの蓄積によって進化 してゆく。なのはが保有する「レイジングハート」もインテリジェントデバイスである。
Intricate tools used by mages as Magic Activation Complexes.
The first devices were staff shaped, but now devices come in many different forms and types.
Devices can also be used in various ways depending on an individual's needs, such as storage or activation assistance of magic data, as offensive weaponry, etc. Among these, devices which have had an artifical intelligence inserted into them are called "Intelligent Devices," which continuously improve themselves by gathering experience and accumulating data together with their user. The device in Nanoha's possession, "Raising Heart", is also an Intelligent Device.
About Barrier Jackets and constant mana drain:
Quote:
レイジングハートエクセリオン&バリアジャケット・アグレッサーモード - Raising Heart Exelion & Barrier Jacket ・ Aggressor Mode
*snip*
バリアジャケット・アグレッサーモードは、軽量で汎用性に優れ、魔力消費を押さえることで、長時間の活動( 主に教導)に適した形態。
Aggressor Mode excels as a light-weight, all-purpose Barrier Jacket mode, and because the Mana expenditure is kept low, it is suitable for long periods of activity (primarily combat instruction).
As for what it's actually made out of? I don't think it has ever been mentioned specifically, or at least I don't recall ever reading anything about this. It's a given that Mana is needed, both a forming cost and a continous mana drain, and it's likely fully made from Mana from the wording of the Jacket Purge article earlier (sorry, misidentified it with the Reactor Parts article earlier on).

About the "Sealed Domain" barrier:
According to the article, it's a Belkan barrier spell, where only the "targets that meet the requirements specified by the user" are left behind.
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Old 2008-01-18, 05:34   Link #507
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
No, that's not it. Matter != forcefield. Solid = forcefield. The mass of solid matter comes from its constituent atoms, the field that binds them into solids has no mass by itself.
What? You are not counting the electromagnetic forcefields b/w the protons and the electrons? Those don't go away just because something starts to melt or even boil - extreme conditions are required to make them break down.

Even as a liquid in the macro sense, there's the forcefield of surface tension, and below the surface, there are still inter-attractions even though the molecules are not rigidly held togehter.

Even as a gas, not all forcefields break down. For example, the bond between carbon and oxygen in CO2.
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Old 2008-01-18, 05:39   Link #508
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Let's start with: Had she imagined a rifle, would a rifle even have come out? Even in Ep1, it is clear that what came out is not exactly what was imagined
A pink staf, with a red orb held by a yellow cresent... nope, pretty much how she imagined it.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
- unless you believe Nanoha imagined a staff that would vent steam and have cylinders! When one aggregates the data in the whole show, it is likely that there are limits in the range of adaptation. Probably Shooting and Buster were RH's best emulations of a rifle.
This does nothing to argue the point that had she imagined a rifle, none of Raising Heart's functions would be any different.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
(OF course, the real issue is because they suddenly altered the show's course around Ep6/7ish, but SoD, SoD, SoD!
SoD?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I think your heart knows which is better. That's why you are fantasizing.
I'm the kind of guy who goes for versatality over focus. Guns aren't made to focus huge beams for prolonged periods of time or handle one in melee or shoot in several directions at once, rifles even less so. Guns are the optimum weapon for burst ranged warfare, yes. But Nanoha is more then just point and shoot.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It won't feel much like a gentle nudge when you think you've aimed it, and then the thing moves.
*sigh* once again, you know the device will correct it. You know it will be coming. You are fully prepared for it, so you don't aim you point.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
By the way, Mach Caliber at least had a spell recorded that can be used to actually move (really it is a jerk) itself (and coincidentally its Master). What does RH use.
She does? Really? What's it called?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Frankly, I must say that I don't understand your love for mechanical stabilization over electronic. At least the latter is only unproven.
Personally I'd actually prefer to correct the course of my projectiles after I shoot. That way I don't need to bother with aiming my weapon at all, I just point, shoot and adjust the course where needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The corrolary is that it must use a process that does not require megatons of energy. Which rules out M-E conversion.
Okay, lets re-capture. We have the devices in sealed mode, yes? Then they activate, during which they become all sparkly and energy like, grow in size and become solid, yes? If that isn't magical energy becoming solid material (energy becomming matter), then what the hell is it?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Teleportation variant.
Good, good, and what happens when you teleport?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Elites? Elite (single) is more like it. Fate and Hayate have different CONOPS. What should be in Team B, however, are all those normal mages we saw. You know, those who run even before the first shot is fired at them. Or those who were wiped out in the sky by 3 and 7. Or those who were shooting at drones from 10m and not getting noticeable hits. Now, that really puts things in perspective, no?
I don't see a reason not to include Fate and Hayate. Hell, Vita and Signum have ranged capabillities, and all of them don't use any form of rifle... despite that rifles are superior weapons according to you. Strange, no?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
UPDATE: Oh yeah, and said elite managed to blow 8% of her magic power in the fight. Team A got away scot-free. Hmm...
But not before almost killing comrades/civilians and going through emo-phases. Hmm.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Or a simulation of such. The latter does not require energies we've never seen the mages themselves harness.
Which still means magical energy becomming a physical object.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I'm sure the man in Erio's scene was not thinking about it in terms of how close he was to the original Erio.
Uhm... yes he was? He was trying to drag him away from his familly after all.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Scarlietti was just being a prick to the end.
Still does not discount the fact that he was ranting about the power in Project F.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Come to think of it, even if I accept that Fate's magical power was somehow boosted, what does this have to do with her intelligence. Neither Vivio or Erio looked real bright.
Erio is a nine-year old who grasps ancient fighting styles and attacks at speeds that even amaze Signum. Vivio is a six year old and already studies magic and flight manouvres.
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Old 2008-01-18, 06:03   Link #509
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
This does nothing to argue the point that had she imagined a rifle, none of Raising Heart's functions would be any different.
You are still assuming a rifle will form if she wished it.

Quote:
SoD?
Suspsneion of disbelief. Come on, you cannot have walked around in the SW world for years without bumping into it once.

Quote:
I'm the kind of guy who goes for versatality over focus. Guns aren't made to focus huge beams for prolonged periods of time or handle one in melee or shoot in several directions at once, rifles even less so. Guns are the optimum weapon for burst ranged warfare, yes. But Nanoha is more then just point and shoot.
1) One would at least think the Shooting and Buster modes for long range would be more like a rifle (in fact, it is probably RH's best imitation of a rifle already, with two places to grip, but stock, RH, stock!)
2) If I'm going to do melee, I'll get an Armed Device. At least that will be specialized for lcose in work.
3) Explain to me your theories that make a staff shape device the ideal compromise b/w all the requirements you spit up there. Without trying to paper over weaknesses with unproven magitech - we're discussing the base shape here.

Quote:
*sigh* once again, you know the device will correct it. You know it will be coming. You are fully prepared for it, so you don't aim you point.
You don't know WHEN the correction will come. You are better off aiming it as best as you can, so the jerk will be less.

Quote:
She does? Really? What's it called?
Forgot, but MC used it to kick Ginga, remember?

Quote:
Personally I'd actually prefer to correct the course of my projectiles after I shoot. That way I don't need to bother with aiming my weapon at all, I just point, shoot and adjust the course where needed.
Instead of getting it as right as possible the first time, lazy you prefers to correct using a (theoretically jammable) command link...

Quote:
Okay, lets re-capture. We have the devices in sealed mode, yes? Then they activate, during which they become all sparkly and energy like, grow in size and become solid, yes? If that isn't magical energy becoming solid material (energy becomming matter), then what the hell is it?
Mana forming into forcefields.

Quote:
Good, good, and what happens when you teleport?
Have you heard of quantum tunneling or wormhole? I certainly don't see a flash of megaton class energy as Fate was annihilated... and again, if she was annihilated, there will be no will left to have that nice scene with Precia and Alicia, which was actually pretty cute.

Quote:
I don't see a reason not to include Fate and Hayate. Hell, Vita and Signum have ranged capabillities, and all of them don't use any form of rifle... despite that rifles are superior weapons according to you. Strange, no?
Fate, Vita and Signum are close combat specialists. Their long range (as in, over 10m) attack stuff is secondary. For that, their weapons are reasonably designed (I think - maybe a melee expert will have something else to say about this).

Hayate is artillery - the indirect fire variety at that.

Quote:
But not before almost killing comrades/civilians and going through emo-phases. Hmm.
Should I bring up the part where the opposition almost got themselves killed? The part where the opposition failed to protect her newfound love and got her back only through the greatest good fortune?

Quote:
Erio is a nine-year old who grasps ancient fighting styles and attacks at speeds that even amaze Signum. Vivio is a six year old and already studies magic and flight manouvres.
It is made very clear in the Sound Stages that that was a primary school. Vivio was of normal intelligence. Erio is IIRC 10. He may be reasonably bright but come on you know he can't raise a hair to the likes of the aces. Remember around 10-11, Hayate created Reinforce II using scraps of ancient, almost data...
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Old 2008-01-18, 07:16   Link #510
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Instead of getting it as right as possible the first time, lazy you prefers to correct using a (theoretically jammable) command link...
I just want to point out something here...There seems to be an assumption that you cannot download targeting data and course correction to your shots after you fire them, and that it's an inherently flawed technique to use.

Well, sorry to burst your bubble... but the US and most nations on Earth have been doing it since the 60s. I'm talking about Semi Active Radar Homing.

Take the AIM-7 Sparrow. You fire the Sparrow at the target; once fired you continue to maintain lock and send course correction updates. Or the RIM-67 Standard Missile 2 used on Aegis cruisers and destroyers. The Aegis system designates the targets, fires the missiles, then tells the missiles where to go and keeps on sending course corrections.

Or the Lock On After Launch mode for the Hellfire missiles mounted on the Apache and the latest Cobras. As the name says: launch first, then lock on.

Now, consider that the US military operates in high intensity warfare. Consider that they wargame for the worst possible senarios. And if firing first and then sending course corrections works for them, then it fucking better well work for us!

(A note on the Sparrow: Sparrow was replaced by the AIM-120 AMRAAM, which is lock on first, then fire, because this is a better option for dogfighting. However, AMRAAM is capable of receiving targeting data and course correction updates so long as the datalink is active, and thus using those to steer itself to the target with greater precision. Which is to say that you can guide it in semi-manually until you need to bug out, at which point you scram at let the AMRAAM go hunting.)

Now, if these can do it, I don't see why RH can't do it.

Incidentally, RH DOES have a move whereby it moves Nanoha outta the way. It's called Flash Move. And it's an evasion tactic.

As for rifles and stocks: most of my OCs use rifle-shaped devices. On the other hand, they're also barely 20 years removed from actually using guns, before a war of annexation and occupation between their planet and the TSAB.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-01-18 at 07:27.
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Old 2008-01-18, 08:21   Link #511
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
You are still assuming a rifle will form if she wished it.
Give me one good reason why it wouldn't. A pink staff with a red orb held by a cresent certainly apeared when she wished for it, why wouldn't a rifle have apeared had she wished for that instead?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Suspsneion of disbelief. Come on, you cannot have walked around in the SW world for years without bumping into it once.
The term (and actual feeling) yes, the abreviation is new to me, though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Instead of getting it as right as possible the first time, lazy you prefers to correct using a (theoretically jammable) command link...
Yes, and for good reason. Remember how we established long ago that Nanoha magic projectiles are slower then bullets? How they are, in fact, dodgeable? Now, using this idea, one comes to the realization that you can be the sharpest shooter you want, or have the best targeting system, but if your enemy moves after you shoot, you will miss. If you can't control your shots, you'll miss. If you can control your shots, you can adjust course and still hit him. The best thing is that it also takes away the time needed to aim with deadly accuracy, simply aiming by pointing (without sights) will do, as you'll adjust the course if it goes wrong anyway. Hell, you can even make the rounds apear behind your back or scatter them in advance (Like Nanoha's 'sneak attack' on Vita in A's 01) and take your oponent by surprise, without aiming your device at all.

Of course, one can do this whether they carry a rifle, staff, axe, sword or whatever device they like, but it shows my preffered method of combat. I'll use this instead of a gun, grab a close/long-range weapon combi, and manage to deal well on all acounts instead of just one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
1) One would at least think the Shooting and Buster modes for long range would be more like a rifle (in fact, it is probably RH's best imitation of a rifle already, with two places to grip, but stock, RH, stock!)
Nevermind my first argument. I just remembered Teana can use Starlight Breaker nowadays. Kinda renders that point invalid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
2) If I'm going to do melee, I'll get an Armed Device. At least that will be specialized for lcose in work.
Like I said, I prefer versatality. I'll take a ranged/close device combi anyday.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
3) Explain to me your theories that make a staff shape device the ideal compromise b/w all the requirements you spit up there. Without trying to paper over weaknesses with unproven magitech - we're discussing the base shape here.
Allright, I've withdrawn the beam claim due to the reasons above, but we know a rifle is not made for close combat. If you start hitting swords or hammers with your rifle, the chance that you will break your own device increases, the chance that you'll injure you oponent is nil. A staff shaped device can be wielded in melee with much more succes, has less chance of breaking and has a higher chance of actually injuring your oponent, due to the previously mentioned higher ease of wielding as oposed to a rifle.
Second, while firing magic rounds in several directions is possible with a gun, you can't aim in several directions with a gun. You'll have to rely on self controling the rounds anyway, thereby discarding the aiming advantage of the gun. With your weapons main advantage rendered useless, you might as well have taken a staff.
Third, thanks to Nanoha's long-range shot in A's, we already know that having a physical stock or sight present is not a requirement for deadly accuracy even on long ranges. Weapon stabillity does not seem to be an issue (through what methods are theorycrafting, I'll admit) and sights are done mentally.

The staff gives more advantages then a gun or rifle, while sacrificing only minor compensatable ones itself.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Forgot, but MC used it to kick Ginga, remember?
Short recap of the battle: Mach Calibur used Wing Road (considering Wing Road in itself doesn't act as a booster, its more likely Mach Calibur used this to gain friction) kicked away Ginga's aproaching arm, controlled the Wing Road to provide a base from which to kick away the remainder of Ginga's guard and then took control of the knuckle, activated it, formed a fist out of the unconsious Subaru's hand, and used it to punch Ginga.

So no, it's not a single spell. It's not even a spell designed for that purpose. Mach Calibur took full control over the knuckle and controlled Wing Road. Not just a 'replay cast' but actually controlled the direction the road was going. When controlling the knuckle (which is not even a part of Mach Calibur, if you recall) she activated it and formed Subaru's hand into a fist, punching with a strength that forced Ginga back.

This spells out that devices have the abillity to physically support their wielders. True, it does not prove the existence of an auto-correction feature, but it also renders the excuse of its possible existence being 'baseless' futile.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Mana forming into forcefields.
... I am getting totally confused. Didn't you just say that forcefields are matter?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Have you heard of quantum tunneling or wormhole? I certainly don't see a flash of megaton class energy as Fate was annihilated... and again, if she was annihilated, there will be no will left to have that nice scene with Precia and Alicia, which was actually pretty cute.
I've heard of wormholes. And I've also heard that wormholes and teleportation are two different things. A short view in a dictionairy gave me this as an answer:

"Teleportation: a hypothetical mode of instantaneous transportation; matter is dematerialized at one place and recreated at another "

Dematerialized. No longer matter. If its no longer matter, then what is it?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Fate, Vita and Signum are close combat specialists. Their long range (as in, over 10m) attack stuff is secondary. For that, their weapons are reasonably designed (I think - maybe a melee expert will have something else to say about this).
I am somewhat of a melee expert, or at least I have experience in melee fights. Their weapons are designed for melee combat very well, barring Fate's scythe form, but that's mostly because despite the 'awesome' factor, scythes just aren't good melee weapons. (you'll note that the only scythes used in combat more acurately resemble glaives then scythes) Kama's are much better. Signum's blade is also a bit on the short side for a single blade, it's obviously a one-hander, but it's usually a smart choice not to leave the other hand hanging. A shield or second sword would have been prefered here. She compensates by using her scabard in certain situations were one would normally use their second sword, which again invokes the 'awesome' factor more then actual combat.

Speaking of Fate, she can actually be described as melee oriented, but with a fair share of ranged spells. More in the direction of a versatallity expert then a melee expert.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Hayate is artillery - the indirect fire variety at that.
Conceded. I really wish the'd have shown us more of what Hayate is actually capable of.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Should I bring up the part where the opposition almost got themselves killed? The part where the opposition failed to protect her newfound love and got her back only through the greatest good fortune?
Touché, but also note how useless the 'higher accuracy' guns were when the enemy started closing in during said capture.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It is made very clear in the Sound Stages that that was a primary school. Vivio was of normal intelligence. Erio is IIRC 10. He may be reasonably bright but come on you know he can't raise a hair to the likes of the aces. Remember around 10-11, Hayate created Reinforce II using scraps of ancient, almost data...
I never said they were as good as the Aces, but they are far above the average humans. As for Vivio, like I said, she studied flight manouvers which was before she went to school. What kind of normal six-year-old studies flight manouvers in their spare time?
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Old 2008-01-18, 09:48   Link #512
arkhangelsk
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Give me one good reason why it wouldn't. A pink staff with a red orb held by a cresent certainly apeared when she wished for it, why wouldn't a rifle have apeared had she wished for that instead?
What actually came out in the shooting form is a clue. There is clearly a limited range of transformation. If the dedicated shooting mode does not reach a rifle form (even you know it is not the best of ergonomics for the long range shoot or else you won't be rationalizing), why should I believe a rifle mode is available on request?

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Yes, and for good reason. Remember how we established long ago that Nanoha magic projectiles are slower then bullets? How they are, in fact, dodgeable? Now, using this idea, one comes to the realization that you can be the sharpest shooter you want, or have the best targeting system, but if your enemy moves after you shoot, you will miss. If you can't control your shots, you'll miss. If you can control your shots, you can adjust course and still hit him. The best thing is that it also takes away the time needed to aim with deadly accuracy, simply aiming by pointing (without sights) will do, as you'll adjust the course if it goes wrong anyway. Hell, you can even make the rounds apear behind your back or scatter them in advance (Like Nanoha's 'sneak attack' on Vita in A's 01) and take your oponent by surprise, without aiming your device at all.
However, since homing bullets are (understandably since most of them are MCLOS) slower than high-speed straight runners, you are still very much advised to aim the straight runners. It is another matter if those homing bullets are at least accurate, but frankly, they keep getting dodged. Worse, the majority of them are manually controlled. Thus, you are potentially more vulnerable than a plane firing Sparrow missiles (which can at least manuever within the Allowable Steering Error, instead of being stuck standing up).

So, if you aim, you might miss but at least you can manuever after firing. If you don't aim and rely solely on command guidance, you save a second or two pre firing (maybe, or did you waste that entering target data?) but lose as you stand there like a statue, with your eyes closed because you don't even have the brainpower left to maintain the broader situational awareness with your eyes.

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Allright, I've withdrawn the beam claim due to the reasons above, but we know a rifle is not made for close combat. If you start hitting swords or hammers with your rifle, the chance that you will break your own device increases, the chance that you'll injure you oponent is nil. A staff shaped device can be wielded in melee with much more succes, has less chance of breaking and has a higher chance of actually injuring your oponent, due to the previously mentioned higher ease of wielding as oposed to a rifle.
So, the gun gets no extra points for:
1) Accuracy, so it might kill swordsman before he can close? Remember that if he closes, even if you might do somewhat better with a staff, you are still at a disadvantage. Wouldn't doing your best to kill him at your favored distance be a better move? For example, if the effective range of the rifle is 200m, and the staff 100m, then I get twice the time to bust him (and more chances to increase that time further by appropriate extension), and thus avoiding what is ultimately a disadvantageous encounter! If I use a sniper rifle to extend that to 600m (Vice's sniper rifle had some of the highest MVs in the series), then there is little comparison.
2) The ability to have a bayonet, which would at least be a cutting surface. The staff is blunt all the way through.
3) Presumably, if I'm duelling w/ someone with my rifle, I'll be contacting his weapon mostly with my barrel. Based on Bardiche, barrels are not likely to be the core, so even if he slices my barrel in two, I can a) quickly replace it and b) have a chance to shoot him at PB, with the psychological advantage of surprise (since he's just done slicing downwards in truimph). As Fate vs Chrono showed, attacks with surprise, even with lower power, can be decisive.
4) Small point: The fact that I have a rifle means I don't need a half-assed Shooting Mode to give me some of the advantages of a rifle (my melee mode will involve adding a bayonet). That means my rifle may potentially have only one form. I don't know, but all else being equal, having only one form can't hurt its good construction.

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Second, while firing magic rounds in several directions is possible with a gun, you can't aim in several directions with a gun. You'll have to rely on self controling the rounds anyway, thereby discarding the aiming advantage of the gun. With your weapons main advantage rendered useless, you might as well have taken a staff.
Actually, with the rifle, you have a variety of choices. You can select whether to aim or to use the self control stuff.

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Third, thanks to Nanoha's long-range shot in A's, we already know that having a physical stock or sight present is not a requirement for deadly accuracy even on long ranges. Weapon stabillity does not seem to be an issue (through what methods are theorycrafting, I'll admit) and sights are done mentally.
Cross out "deadly accuracy" and replace with "hits". Replace "long range" with "100m", and append "with an unchoked shotgun" and tack on "fired by a what they call a prodigy". Thanks to Vice, we know that for real accuracy, Midchildran magitech had not allowed people to abandon the basics.

And did I say "No papering over weaknesses with unproven magitech?" Yes, I did. I might as well say that I can arrange for not only a bayonet, but for my whole barrel to create a magic sword a la Bardiche's scythe (it'll also protect the barrel)! That basically gives me almost a shortsword or shortspear versus your staff in melee.

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The staff gives more advantages then a gun or rifle, while sacrificing only minor compensatable ones itself.
See all above objections. Further, I asked you to demonstrate that the staff is the best all around compromise. And the sword, hammer, battleaxe ... etc don't even get a hearing? Frankly, IMO your comparison heavily biases towards the melee, which is actually acceptable since it reveals your concept of combat, but then what happened to the comparison versus dedicated melee weapons? I can use the same stabilization "magitech" to paper over the weaknesses of the melee weapon at long range, then drive on to its clear advantages in melee, and conclude if anything, the sword is the best all around compromise!

The problem with the staff is that it is neither fish or fowl. It clearly does not match up to the rifle. Nor does it match up to the sword. The sword is superior in melee and will be comparable to the staff at range with all the paper overing magitech you are trying to give it.

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This spells out that devices have the abillity to physically support their wielders. True, it does not prove the existence of an auto-correction feature, but it also renders the excuse of its possible existence being 'baseless' futile.
Physically support? I see it playing back magics one after another. Admittedly it was clever, but let's not be abscribing the sky and earth.

Further, it is clearly an improvised measure that more shows the ingenuity of the particular AI then the feature set she was endowed with.

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... I am getting totally confused. Didn't you just say that forcefields are matter?
Matter are forcefields. Forcefields are not necessarily matter.

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"Teleportation: a hypothetical mode of instantaneous transportation; matter is dematerialized at one place and recreated at another "

Dematerialized. No longer matter. If its no longer matter, then what is it?
You are actually relying on a ordinary dictionary? Again I ask you. If she was reverted to energy, where is the energy? How is there still a will? Why are there still vitals?

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Speaking of Fate, she can actually be described as melee oriented, but with a fair share of ranged spells. More in the direction of a versatallity expert then a melee expert.
She has a fair range of ranged spells, but her orientation is in close range. Thus, her weapon represented her inclinations.

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Touché, but also note how useless the 'higher accuracy' guns were when the enemy started closing in during said capture.
To be fair, Vice was actually doing pretty well until Lutecia came in and he had a PTSD flashback. At least Vice was fighting. What was Nanoha doing again?

By the way, remind me how this section disintegrated into an exchange of character assassinations?

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I never said they were as good as the Aces, but they are far above the average humans. As for Vivio, like I said, she studied flight manouvers which was before she went to school. What kind of normal six-year-old studies flight manouvers in their spare time?
According to Nanoha, if you have enough power, which Vivio almost certainly has, flying almost as much of a breeze as walking. How old is it when you learnt to walk?
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Old 2008-01-18, 10:10   Link #513
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
I just want to point out something here...There seems to be an assumption that you cannot download targeting data and course correction to your shots after you fire them, and that it's an inherently flawed technique to use.

Well, sorry to burst your bubble... but the US and most nations on Earth have been doing it since the 60s. I'm talking about Semi Active Radar Homing.

Take the AIM-7 Sparrow. You fire the Sparrow at the target; once fired you continue to maintain lock and send course correction updates. Or the RIM-67 Standard Missile 2 used on Aegis cruisers and destroyers. The Aegis system designates the targets, fires the missiles, then tells the missiles where to go and keeps on sending course corrections.
While we are on the RIM-66 (the booster-equiped -67 is used on older cruisers - they won't fit in the Mk41 and IIRC the Mk26), there is an interesting story. The RIM-66A/B used pure semi-active lock. The RIM-66C had 60% more range due to its use of an inertial/CG phase. The lesson, which I think Keroko should think about is that the RIM-66C was effectively aimed more carefully, and thus it could use its energy more efficiently. Thus, homing and command guidance is no substitute for aiming well in the first place.

While we are talking about the Sparrow, shall we mention the need for it to continue to guide causes the plane to be a relative sitting duck and it is considered a weakness.

In theory, if the target is non-maneuverable, an AMRAAM can be completely autonomous LOAL - inertial + ARH. However, that is only true if you allow time to aim (fire control solution), so the correct trajectory and seeker activation points are chosen. Keroko, on the other hand, will just point and shoot (if the WCS has such an override) before this is completed to save himself a few seconds. Thus, he is probably doomed to keep sending correction signals to his missiles (if the WCS even allows this) even if it should be un-necessary, making him a sitting duck.

The point of my objection, as you see, is not so much that he wants to use course correction, but that he apparently believes it a substitute for proper initial aiming (fire control solution).

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Now, if these can do it, I don't see why RH can't do it.
See again, UFP.

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Incidentally, RH DOES have a move whereby it moves Nanoha outta the way. It's called Flash Move. And it's an evasion tactic.
Play back, move back. Wow. This equates to ACLOS guidance. But it is clear from Ep5 that it is MCLOS or at best it might be SACLOS.

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As for rifles and stocks: most of my OCs use rifle-shaped devices. On the other hand, they're also barely 20 years removed from actually using guns, before a war of annexation and occupation between their planet and the TSAB.
See, you understand.
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Old 2008-01-18, 10:19   Link #514
krisslanza
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I'm pretty sure whatever Nanoha imagines RH would turn into. She could imagine a giant planet-cracking hammer and it'd turn into one. She'd just probably get crushed by it and die or something. There isn't evidence to suggest a Device cannot turn into any feasiably useable piece of 'weaponry' if its user wills it too. Nanoha picked a staff and a (sort of) variation on her school uniform simply because she was rushed for time and thinked of the first things that came to mind. And I suppose she watched a few magical girl animes or played some of Arisa's games and thought of a staff.

And I don't think the barriers can just be Belkan. Mid-Childan mages (like Yuuno) use them just fine and they don't even recognize Belkan when it was first used. Unless you mean there are two seperate styles of barriers. I always imagined they simply just moved the battlefield a few dimensions over... Since any damage done to a building or street, etc. etc. doesn't effect the real world when the barrier collapses. We know there are well, a lot of dimensions, I don't think I'd be too odd that it'd just push everything into another one where there isn't anyone to get killed. The article that a barrier only allows who its user wants in makes more since then the idea that anyone with magical talent can get in it. If so that suggests that somehow the previously unmagical Arisa and Suzuka have magical talent by the end of A's.
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Old 2008-01-18, 10:42   Link #515
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
I'm pretty sure whatever Nanoha imagines RH would turn into. She could imagine a giant planet-cracking hammer and it'd turn into one. She'd just probably get crushed by it and die or something. There isn't evidence to suggest a Device cannot turn into any feasiably useable piece of 'weaponry' if its user wills it too.
Wrong direction of thought. We see one form. We see another form that is optimized for a different role and yet the changes are limited. Ergo, the range of variation is limited.

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And I don't think the barriers can just be Belkan. Mid-Childan mages (like Yuuno) use them just fine and they don't even recognize Belkan when it was first used.
No one said it is. The description just described the particular barrier that Reinforce 1 used.

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Since any damage done to a building or street, etc. etc. doesn't effect the real world when the barrier collapses.
Are you sure? Then why was Lindy sending out the TSAB men to put out fires before the battle's over - all the damage should disappear when the barrier goes down at the end of the fight.

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We know there are well, a lot of dimensions, I don't think I'd be too odd that it'd just push everything into another one where there isn't anyone to get killed.
Pushing people into other dimensions is dangerous. For one thing, MGLN does not seem to use the Parallel World model. Each habitable world is entirely different. Further, even if it is parallel world, there will statistically be a lot more dimensions where something has changed than ones that are suitable. Thus, when you shove the mudanes out with your barrier to another dimension, most likely they'll fall into one where they can't survive (the same coordinates there happens to be space and so on). IMO, the safest place is probably to place them temporarily out of time, so they cannot be affected.

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The article that a barrier only allows who its user wants in makes more since then the idea that anyone with magical talent can get in it. If so that suggests that somehow the previously unmagical Arisa and Suzuka have magical talent by the end of A's.
Why not? I'm sure I'm not the only person who was thinking when we saw the two moving inside the barrier that "DO they have magic? Can't wait to see the third season (where unfortunately they are shafted)" Frankly, it would have been much more interesting to see those two become mages than the Forwards, especially the Lightning team

There have been at least a couple of FanFics (Saint X and Dragonzoid) where it turned out those two had magical powers and of course there's that fanmade manga too.

If "only who its user wants in" can get into barriers in general, how did Signum break in in Ep5 A's, Yunno and Fate break in in Ep 1 A's and Yunno and Nanoha in Ep 9 original series... as a rule, those with magic power, enemies or friends can exist, the rest fade.

Two ways to deal with that quotation. One, I can say that the "requirements" that are settable is limited to power level (pressure exerted by barrier), thus the two have some latent magic talent that hadn't shown up until now.

Two, under my theory, if is actually possible to allow some special exceptions, assuming you can locate them. What you will do is specially and specifically anchor them with your own power, so they cannot be pushed out when you extend your barrier. But while one can understand why Hayate (did she?) and / or Rein wanted Fate and Nanoha dead, why they would specifically target Suzuka and Arisa is plainly unclear, so personally I think one is more likely.
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Old 2008-01-18, 10:58   Link #516
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
While we are on the RIM-66 (the booster-equiped -67 is used on older cruisers - they won't fit in the Mk41 and IIRC the Mk26), there is an interesting story. The RIM-66A/B used pure semi-active lock. The RIM-66C had 60% more range due to its use of an inertial/CG phase. The lesson, which I think Keroko should think about is that the RIM-66C was effectively aimed more carefully, and thus it could use its energy more efficiently. Thus, homing and command guidance is no substitute for aiming well in the first place.
The point Keroko is trying to make, I believe, is that it is possible to aim from the hip, as it were, with the Device, and the device handles the targeting.

Hell, in a combat aircraft, all the pilot does is designate the targets. It's the computers that give the guidance data...

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While we are talking about the Sparrow, shall we mention the need for it to continue to guide causes the plane to be a relative sitting duck and it is considered a weakness.

In theory, if the target is non-maneuverable, an AMRAAM can be completely autonomous LOAL - inertial + ARH. However, that is only true if you allow time to aim (fire control solution), so the correct trajectory and seeker activation points are chosen. Keroko, on the other hand, will just point and shoot (if the WCS has such an override) before this is completed to save himself a few seconds. Thus, he is probably doomed to keep sending correction signals to his missiles (if the WCS even allows this) even if it should be un-necessary, making him a sitting duck.
The point of mentioning Sparrow and AMRAAM was that you seemed to be saying that LOAL systems were too difficult to make work.

I admit that Sparrow made the launching aircraft a sitting duck. On the other hand, to follow the Hellfire example (since it IS LOAL-capable), once the correction signals are sent it's off an away.

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The point of my objection, as you see, is not so much that he wants to use course correction, but that he apparently believes it a substitute for proper initial aiming (fire control solution).
And his contention is that the staff has a sufficient auto-aiming correction built into it, like the Halo reticle.

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Play back, move back. Wow. This equates to ACLOS guidance. But it is clear from Ep5 that it is MCLOS or at best it might be SACLOS.
Define. Full names. I only used LOAL and SARH after spelling them out in full.

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See, you understand.
Late and wanting to sleep, I'll just adress this point : my OCs use rifle devices for the most part due to having just come from a culture where guns are present: the Sergeant Major, who uses a rifle-shaped device, had his Staff's core fused with the BR55HB Battle Rifle that he used as a Marine. It's more a cultural issue rather than ergonomics. But yes, if he's going to snipe someone, Sergeant Major Ivanovich will use a proper sniper rifle, because that's how he was trained.

My position on the rifle/staff debate is that the Mid-Childans use staves because it's what they're used to; the Erusian mages of the OFM's Assault Platoon use rifle-shaped devices because many of them have had experience with conventional weapons, and are more used to rifles than staves.

On the subject of scopes... one OC is trying to be Simo Hayha, in that he uses Variable Shot and a sniping spell with iron sights.

As for Nanoha's mentally controlled magic balls...essentially, the designers wrote Nanoha has the magical equivalent of a fin funnel/DRAGOON-equipped Gundam. That's what her magic ballshots are, DRAGOON shots. That's why she doesn't really need to point RH at anyone when she uses Accel Shooter. She just fires away and controls them mentally.

@Kagerou: Storage Devices are probably cheaper and easier to massproduce. As for purpose... if Intelligent Devices are automatic transmission, Storage Devices are manual.

And really, if you're a grunt, you rate an M16. Nobody's gonna give you a HK416 all tricked out Delta Force styles. Or it's like Mobius One getting the F-4 as a noob before he upgraded to the F-22 and the Fighter of Badass and Justice.

...actually, that may be it. Storage Devices are F-4Es. Intelligent Devices are F-16/15. And Raging Heart is an XF/A-27.
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Old 2008-01-18, 11:21   Link #517
Keroko
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
What actually came out in the shooting form is a clue. There is clearly a limited range of transformation. If the dedicated shooting mode does not reach a rifle form (even you know it is not the best of ergonomics for the long range shoot or else you won't be rationalizing), why should I believe a rifle mode is available on request?
Because Nanoha was told to imagine a weapon?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
However, since homing bullets are (understandably since most of them are MCLOS) slower than high-speed straight runners, you are still very much advised to aim the straight runners. It is another matter if those homing bullets are at least accurate, but frankly, they keep getting dodged. Worse, the majority of them are manually controlled. Thus, you are potentially more vulnerable than a plane firing Sparrow missiles (which can at least manuever within the Allowable Steering Error, instead of being stuck standing up).

So, if you aim, you might miss but at least you can manuever after firing. If you don't aim and rely solely on command guidance, you save a second or two pre firing (maybe, or did you waste that entering target data?) but lose as you stand there like a statue, with your eyes closed because you don't even have the brainpower left to maintain the broader situational awareness with your eyes.
I don't see why, as long as you keep your oponent within your line of sight, you can target them and manouver at the same time. Your shots respond to your mental commands, which is hardly comparable to our MCLOS. You simply have to think where you want the round to go and it goes there, so in a dogfight, I would rather prefer these rounds, as they constantly chase my oponent, forcing him to either keep dodging or start blocking which keeps him from attacking. You can manouver and keep him pinned without losing accuracy, with a rifle, you have to stop moving in order to profit from your sights.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
So, the gun gets no extra points for:
1) Accuracy, so it might kill swordsman before he can close? Remember that if he closes, even if you might do somewhat better with a staff, you are still at a disadvantage. Wouldn't doing your best to kill him at your favored distance be a better move? For example, if the effective range of the rifle is 200m, and the staff 100m, then I get twice the time to bust him (and more chances to increase that time further by appropriate extension), and thus avoiding what is ultimately a disadvantageous encounter! If I use a sniper rifle to extend that to 600m (Vice's sniper rifle had some of the highest MVs in the series), then there is little comparison.
Like I said, guided shots work just as fine and you can actually correct them when you shoot, giving you a higher chance to hit, so no the gun doesn't get points in accuracy.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
2) The ability to have a bayonet, which would at least be a cutting surface. The staff is blunt all the way through.
Ah, here we start roaming in my area of expertise. No, a bayonet to a rifle does not a good melee weapon make. Sure, its a decent idea for unarmed oponents or other people with bayonet rifles, maybe even short weapons like daggers, but a rifle is not a melee weapon. The very things that make it oh-so-great at range (sights and stocks) make it a very clumsy and unwieldy weapon in melee. Someone with a staff has a much better chance of winning.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
3) Presumably, if I'm duelling w/ someone with my rifle, I'll be contacting his weapon mostly with my barrel. Based on Bardiche, barrels are not likely to be the core, so even if he slices my barrel in two, I can a) quickly replace it and b) have a chance to shoot him at PB, with the psychological advantage of surprise (since he's just done slicing downwards in truimph). As Fate vs Chrono showed, attacks with surprise, even with lower power, can be decisive.
While we have been shown that weapons can recover from heavy damage, this skill has never been used while in combat, despite the many times it could have been. This highly suggests some time and effort is involved in recovering, which means there would be no 'quick' recovery.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
4) Small point: The fact that I have a rifle means I don't need a half-assed Shooting Mode to give me some of the advantages of a rifle (my melee mode will involve adding a bayonet). That means my rifle may potentially have only one form. I don't know, but all else being equal, having only one form can't hurt its good construction.
No, instead you need a less-then-half-assed mode to melee, which will fail in any real combat with a propper staff wielder.

Teana's Dagger Mode is much more viable, and even that is calling upon my SoD. It looks more like a 'crap, last resort' type of weapon then an effective melee weapon. If they had reshaped the handguard just a tad more straight, they'd be more believable.

...

Heh. would you look at that. So this is what the other side of the fence looks like.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, with the rifle, you have a variety of choices. You can select whether to aim or to use the self control stuff.
But you severely lack in melee.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Cross out "deadly accuracy" and replace with "hits". Replace "long range" with "100m", and append "with an unchoked shotgun" and tack on "fired by a what they call a prodigy". Thanks to Vice, we know that for real accuracy, Midchildran magitech had not allowed people to abandon the basics.
I'm sorry, but I concider hitting someone that has become a little dot in the distance, gun or no, a long range shot with deadly accuracy.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
And did I say "No papering over weaknesses with unproven magitech?" Yes, I did.
Did I do that? I merely said that recoil did not seem to be an issue, which is a fact.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I might as well say that I can arrange for not only a bayonet, but for my whole barrel to create a magic sword a la Bardiche's scythe (it'll also protect the barrel)! That basically gives me almost a shortsword or shortspear versus your staff in melee.
Yes, you could, and you'd still have a pretty crappy melee weapon. The lack of blade is not an issue, the fact that you have absolutely no way to wield it even remotely comfortable much less effectively is. Why do you think Cross Mirage's grip slides back?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
See all above objections. Further, I asked you to demonstrate that the staff is the best all around compromise. And the sword, hammer, battleaxe ... etc don't even get a hearing? Frankly, IMO your comparison heavily biases towards the melee, which is actually acceptable since it reveals your concept of combat, but then what happened to the comparison versus dedicated melee weapons? I can use the same stabilization "magitech" to paper over the weaknesses of the melee weapon at long range, then drive on to its clear advantages in melee, and conclude if anything, the sword is the best all around compromise!

The problem with the staff is that it is neither fish or fowl. It clearly does not match up to the rifle. Nor does it match up to the sword. The sword is superior in melee and will be comparable to the staff at range with all the paper overing magitech you are trying to give it.
Yee, I dunno, maybe because this was a gun/staff comparison? Anyway, I can compare every single device we've seen so far, but I can already tell you Bardiche comes out on top, clearly. It functions similar to a staff and is an axe ready to be used in melee without any mode-shifting.

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Physically support? I see it playing back magics one after another. Admittedly it was clever, but let's not be abscribing the sky and earth.
Playing back entirely original and on-the-spot improvised manouvres? You can't possibly be serious!

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Further, it is clearly an improvised measure that more shows the ingenuity of the particular AI then the feature set she was endowed with.
So what you are saying is that it is the AI that does the work? Because, you know, that's what I've been saying all along.

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Matter are forcefields. Forcefields are not necessarily matter.
So things are solid because of forcefields, but forcefields aren't neccisarely solid, and since devices are solid... Aaagh! This is completely confusing me.

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You are actually relying on a ordinary dictionary? Again I ask you. If she was reverted to energy, where is the energy? How is there still a will? Why are there still vitals?
She disapeared in sparkles, there was no wormhole, she was converted to energy, vitals could still be read because her existence was still there inside the Yami no Sho.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
She has a fair range of ranged spells, but her orientation is in close range. Thus, her weapon represented her inclinations.
A fair share of ranged spells she often uses, mind you. She is far more ranged oriented then Vita, for example.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
To be fair, Vice was actually doing pretty well until Lutecia came in and he had a PTSD flashback. At least Vice was fighting. What was Nanoha doing again?
I was talking about Teana, actually.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
By the way, remind me how this section disintegrated into an exchange of character assassinations?
Dunno, discussions have a tendency to wind down like this.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
According to Nanoha, if you have enough power, which Vivio almost certainly has, flying almost as much of a breeze as walking. How old is it when you learnt to walk?
When? Where? Last I recall it took a lot more, being labeled as an 'A rank skill'

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Why not? I'm sure I'm not the only person who was thinking when we saw the two moving inside the barrier that "DO they have magic? Can't wait to see the third season (where unfortunately they are shafted)" Frankly, it would have been much more interesting to see those two become mages than the Forwards, especially the Lightning team
Now there is one thing we agree on unconditionally.
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Old 2008-01-18, 11:23   Link #518
selkirk
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If "only who its user wants in" can get into barriers in general, how did Signum break in in Ep5 A's, Yunno and Fate break in in Ep 1 A's and Yunno and Nanoha in Ep 9 original series... as a rule, those with magic power, enemies or friends can exist, the rest fade.

Two ways to deal with that quotation. One, I can say that the "requirements" that are settable is limited to power level (pressure exerted by barrier), thus the two have some latent magic talent that hadn't shown up until now.

Two, under my theory, if is actually possible to allow some special exceptions, assuming you can locate them. What you will do is specially and specifically anchor them with your own power, so they cannot be pushed out when you extend your barrier. But while one can understand why Hayate (did she?) and / or Rein wanted Fate and Nanoha dead, why they would specifically target Suzuka and Arisa is plainly unclear, so personally I think one is more likely.

I didn't translate the full article, since I never realized anyone might be interested in the rest of it, but anyways...

Do make sure you're using the right terms. The Barrier spell in question is only specifically dealing with the likes of Vita's A's Ep01 barrier, and I assume the one that the Book of Darkness used, not "barriers" in general. Also, it doesn't "let people in" according to the user's specifications, it "leaves people behind" according to those specifications.

封鎖領域 - Sealed Domain
A Belkan barrier spell, with a meaning similar to that of a "magic prison". Leaving behind only "the targets that meet the requirements specified by the user", this spell causes a break in Space-time. As shown by the prison in the name, this spell's main purpose is to "prevent targets entrapped within the barrier from escaping". Because of that, it is relatively easy to break in from the outside, but extremely difficult to escape from the inside.


So they specifically state that it's easy to get inside the barrier, but don't mention why. They never mention what kind of requirements can be specified, so as to why Alisa and Suzuka got stuck inside, who knows?
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Old 2008-01-18, 11:43   Link #519
aers
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so as to why Alisa and Suzuka got stuck inside, who knows?
Association with Nanoha & Fate due to the hospital visit, pictures, etc.
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Old 2008-01-18, 11:51   Link #520
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Are you sure? Then why was Lindy sending out the TSAB men to put out fires before the battle's over - all the damage should disappear when the barrier goes down at the end of the fight.
If that is true at the end of A's ep2 the city would've had at least a building with about a floor of windows blown out and another one that had Fate go down about ten stories down the center. There were never any relief clerks sent in for that as the barrier was shattered by Nanoha shoving Starlight Breaker through it.

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Pushing people into other dimensions is dangerous. For one thing, MGLN does not seem to use the Parallel World model. Each habitable world is entirely different. Further, even if it is parallel world, there will statistically be a lot more dimensions where something has changed than ones that are suitable. Thus, when you shove the mudanes out with your barrier to another dimension, most likely they'll fall into one where they can't survive (the same coordinates there happens to be space and so on). IMO, the safest place is probably to place them temporarily out of time, so they cannot be affected.
I'm not sure. Every world (The desert and jungle one namely) seemed to have what look like multiple Earths in their orbit. And they said to go to 'planets nearby this one' and I'm sure the desert world isn't Venus and there isn't any jungle worlds in our solar system. And even if the desert world was Venus it isn't close enough to see what looks like Earth so close by unless it is a planet existing nearly ours but we can't see it as it exists on a different dimension. (Of course then how we can see our dimensional Earth is a mystery unless the planet can naturally see it somehow)

Quote:
Why not? I'm sure I'm not the only person who was thinking when we saw the two moving inside the barrier that "DO they have magic? Can't wait to see the third season (where unfortunately they are shafted)" Frankly, it would have been much more interesting to see those two become mages than the Forwards, especially the Lightning team
Because they would've witnessed Nanoha's first battle with Fate when she went to go get the Jewel Seed from Suzuka's cat as Arisa and Suzuka were with Yuuno's barrier. They weren't in the barrier and I don't think you can 'suddenly' have magical talent unless you can somehow reason that their being in close proximity to Nanoha over the span of MSLN to A's somehow allows them to become magical.
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