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Old 2008-01-05, 18:41   Link #21
kj1980
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Well Ep 2 shows us that anyone could bring six people to a certain location and kill them off.

Ep. 2 showed us a glimpse where Krauss, Natsuhi, Rudolf, Kyrie, Eva, Hideyoshi, and Rosa were all agreeing that Beatrice was real at the sanctuary late that night.


The next day, Rosa was the only one that lived while the others were mutilated at the sanctuary. Yet she says that "she's never been there."

How convenient???



Beatrice is a witch that is used to signify the supernatural. If it is difficult to explain, the easy answer is that a witch named Beatrice did it. It is Battler(your) job to prove otherwise.

Ever notice how everything supernatural (i.e. Kanon's sword, Shannon's shield, the battles with goat-headed butlers, overly moe~ humanized rods, etc.) all happen when it isn't witnessed by Battler?

Lamdadelta also gave us a hint: "Beatrice overdo these things too much that it's too easy to tell it isn't right."

Much like Higurashi: don't believe what you are seeing...instead analyze what is occurring and rationalize and you begin to see things more clearly.





I'm also beginning to think that when Rosa and Maria were the final two running away from Rokkenjima, the butterflies could be fire. Rosa battling against those goat-headed butlers also seem strange...they don't die when she shoots them in the body, but they die when their heads are. Could they be some sort of military guys wearing bullet-proof vests???

Last edited by kj1980; 2008-01-05 at 19:45.
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Old 2008-01-05, 18:56   Link #22
kj1980
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Another interesting note:

In Ep. 1, Rudolf says something like "I'm going to die tonight"
In Ep. 2 Rosa receives a letter from Beatrice...and seems like she used what was written there to bring the six people to the sanctuary.


So perhaps in Ep. 1, Rudolf was the one who received the letter???

Quoting Beatrice when she handed the letter to Rosa, "It could've been any of you four siblings, but since I met you here, it must mean that Kinzo's roulette has befallen upon you"

Last edited by kj1980; 2008-01-05 at 19:21.
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Old 2008-01-05, 19:17   Link #23
Sushi-Y
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I must say that Umineko is the only story that I have ever read that manages to annoy and entertain me at the same time.

To copy the guys above, an overall impression of EP2 for me would be:
Spoiler:

The tea party was interesting, as usual. If it weren't for the fact that they kept interrupting the story, I actually really enjoy watching Battler and Beatrice bicker.

For some reason, I was wondering what Keiichi and the gang would do if they found out that a little loli was responsible for all their pain. I have a feeling Keiichi would go KOOL, and then Rena will hau~ omochikaeri~ her.

Bernkastel's nipa~ was the single most moe moment in this episode.

Anyway, to think about this using Higurashi's logic that "not everything shown is true", then we can always include "hallucination" as an option when attempting to explain certain phenomenons. Maybe there's a "Rokkenjima Syndrome" here that's caused by a certain agent? Maybe the golden butterflies are actually some kind of airborne hallucinogen that, if inhaled, would cause people to see and do weird things?
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Old 2008-01-05, 19:29   Link #24
Sterling01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sushi-Y View Post
Spoiler:
I don't quite get what you mean here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sushi-Y View Post
Bernkastel's nipa~ was the single most moe moment in this episode.
Amen to that.
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Old 2008-01-05, 20:29   Link #25
Sushi-Y
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sterling01 View Post
I don't quite get what you mean here.
In Higurashi, we don't really understand the "true workings" behind each chapter until it was explained to us in Minagoroshi and Matsuribayashi-hen. So even though we eventually come to understand chapters such as Onikakushi-hen as nothing more than a "failed example", we were still able to enjoy Onikakushi-hen for what it was at the time: an engaging and thrilling tale of suspense and drama.

In EP2 of Umineko, however, we have 2 characters who have essentially taken up a "commentator" point of view over the story development (similar to Bernkastel going over the chapter pieces in Minagoroshi and Matsuribayashi-hen), offering their opinions and analysis on the current development, and therefore "spoiling" the chance for the reader to become truly absorbed in the "actual story". With EP1 Battler and Beatrice assuming an "overseer" position, the actual story feels like it has been reduced to "something used in their argument". The player (you), of course, is the ultimate observer, so the presence of these commentators meant that we have to take a step back in order for us to take in not only the actual story, but the exchanges going on between these commentators as well. For me personally, having to examine Battler and Beatrice's "commentaries" has made the actual story in EP2 far less absorbing (many movie DVDs have "commentary tracks" that features the director or actors commenting on the movie as it played out. This is similar to that. Would you want to watch a movie for the first time with the commentaries turned on? No, because we wouldn't be able to focus on the movie itself)

Of course, Battler and Beatrice's exchanges aren't simply commentaries, the two of them are engaged in their own little world that can be considered part of the overall Umineko story as well. But for me, all their debates and definitions so far (red words, for example) simply made the actual story less appealing as a proper tale, but instead made it feel more liked a tool used in presenting their arguments. In the end, this ambiguity kind of ruined the story for me since I found myself unable to attach to anything out of fear that it's just going to be another tool for Beatrice or Battler's arguments.
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Old 2008-01-06, 03:51   Link #26
Rias
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Finally finished it...story started abit slow like episode 1, but once about 40% of the story was passed, it sure was one hell of a scenario. It definitely suprised me from time to time, and my interest went up and up as it went on.

As a story, it's done in a strange way. Like Sushi-Y said, having the commentaries was weird. However, thinking what this episode was about, I think it was actually alright that they did that. After all, this epsiode is suppose to make all the non-believers to surrender and acknowledge the witch. At least that was better than the whole scene with Kanon and the goat-servants, which I still don't know what was going on.

Currently I am leaned towards the witch after she has shown her superiority over the rest of the cast, and that the only other logical explanation I can come up with is "Conicidence + Acting + Hallucination inducing drugs/disease/animals" (I am hoping Ryukkishi07 can do better than reuse the whole 'Hinamizawa Syndrome' thing) Of course, I have my doubts at various points that prevents me from buying completely into the witch theory (gotta go read ep1 again and recheck), that being:

1. First closed room seems fishy
2. Various changes from ep1 -> ep2, noticably the deaths.
3. Bernkenstel's advice in the hidden tea party
4. Beatrice's envelope.
5. Beatrice's red text. Especially the first line.
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Old 2008-01-08, 01:32   Link #27
melange
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This ep was extremely bloody wasn't it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kj1980 View Post
So perhaps in Ep. 1, Rudolf was the one who received the letter???

Quoting Beatrice when she handed the letter to Rosa, "It could've been any of you four siblings, but since I met you here, it must mean that Kinzo's roulette has befallen upon you"
Difference is that Rosa lived but Rudolf didn't... of course since there's the "can't-tell-whose-face-it-really-is" the make things murky, I guess we can safely say Rudolf was still alive in ep1?

Also the issue of Rosa's absence of an alibi never came up (like it did for Eva+Hideyoshi), suspicious?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sushi-Y View Post
For some reason, I was wondering what Keiichi and the gang would do if they found out that a little loli was responsible for all their pain. I have a feeling Keiichi would go KOOL, and then Rena will hau~ omochikaeri~ her.

Bernkastel's nipa~ was the single most moe moment in this episode.
Agreed, Bern-aneki is overwhelmingly moe. XD I wanted to dance when I heard preholder's Over the Sky when Bern talked about her previous experience.

I find it interesting that Lambda sometimes takes up Satoko's speech patterns ("munya-munya-aryashinai"). I also loved how Lambda throws in a reference to the "All-pawns-queened" scenario of Matsurib ayashi-hen. LOL

For some reason, the 'jan-ken-pon-trinity' of Bern-Lambda-Beat makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside... LOL too at Beat being a 'danmaku-type witch'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rias View Post
At least that was better than the whole scene with Kanon and the goat-servants, which I still don't know what was going on.

I have my doubts at various points that prevents me from buying completely into the witch theory (gotta go read ep1 again and recheck), that being:

1. First closed room seems fishy
I'm one of those that loved the atmosphere back in Onikakushi/Watanagashi when it all seemed like there was supernatural interference, so I'm enjoying the seeming hegemony of the witch-theory right now.

I actually found Kanon's 'fight' scene very well done. It made me sit up and stare closely at the monitor while watching it play out. That, and Rosa's final stand. I was a bit disappointed when the scrolling text announcing the results came out as it seemed a flat point to end the episode but Rosa's epilogue was amazing. Earlier someone said Shotgun Rosa > Shotgun Natsuhi but I think its a bit more nuanced than that. True final Shotgun Rosa >>>> final Shotgun Natsuhi but normal Shotgun Rosa was a bit more annoying than normal Shotgun Natsuhi.
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Last edited by melange; 2008-01-08 at 02:07.
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Old 2008-01-09, 07:27   Link #28
Bokunenjin
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Finally got around to finishing all of episode 2. All in all it left me with pretty much mixed feelings. On the one hand I thought all the supernatural elements were pretty awesome, on the other it seems to totally defeat the whole point of the conversations between Battler and Beatrice. I'm still hoping that all the magic is faked somehow and it's all some sort of human conspiracy.

One thing that kind of got to me was the eagerness of Shotgun Rosa to blame everything on the others instead of on the witch which she herself had seen multiple times at that point. Even if it's possible to explain away the supernatural as daydreams or hallucinations it's still a fact multiple people have seen a 19th person (real or otherwise), and to point the blame at each other instead of the uninvited guest that conveniently disappears on the first night seems rather odd. Especially since the certainty provided by Beatrice's red text about for example the amount of keys or the way rooms were locked is not available to the people in the story.
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Old 2008-01-10, 11:31   Link #29
theacefrehley
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokunenjin View Post
One thing that kind of got to me was the eagerness of Shotgun Rosa to blame everything on the others instead of on the witch which she herself had seen multiple times at that point. Even if it's possible to explain away the supernatural as daydreams or hallucinations it's still a fact multiple people have seen a 19th person (real or otherwise), and to point the blame at each other instead of the uninvited guest that conveniently disappears on the first night seems rather odd. Especially since the certainty provided by Beatrice's red text about for example the amount of keys or the way rooms were locked is not available to the people in the story.
Let's join some pieces

ep. 1 => Rosa = faceless
ep. 2 => your post

Could she have some involvement?
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Old 2008-01-14, 22:36   Link #30
Koopen
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I have a question regarding the compatibility of the game Umineko in Vista..

I recently got my copy of Umineko No Naku Koro ni Ep 2 and I was very eager to play but in the end I had so many problems to install it and finally when I wanted to play, a window appear saying about some error.

Can Umineko work well in windows vista?

I need help please
I want to see Bernkastel-chan
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Old 2008-01-14, 23:01   Link #31
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This Guide might help you
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Old 2008-01-15, 11:13   Link #32
Nabiki Asakura
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Hey, minna, it's me, Nabiki, the one who can't speak japanese \=D/


Someone can tell me everything about the scenes with Kanon and Jessica in this episode?XD
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Old 2008-01-16, 01:37   Link #33
kj1980
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Originally Posted by Sushi-Y View Post
Anyway, to think about this using Higurashi's logic that "not everything shown is true", then we can always include "hallucination" as an option when attempting to explain certain phenomenons. Maybe there's a "Rokkenjima Syndrome" here that's caused by a certain agent? Maybe the golden butterflies are actually some kind of airborne hallucinogen that, if inhaled, would cause people to see and do weird things?
Yes, I'm all with you for the statement that "not everything shown is true." However, I don't think Ryukishi would be able to pull off another "Syndrome" stint after Higurashi as that'll be too repetitive.

But you do bring up a good point on how much Beatrice changes in her personality. When calm, she is rather nice. But when things go crazy, she uses very expletive words that are bound to cringe upon any person's psychosis.
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Old 2008-01-17, 20:48   Link #34
Sterling01
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Code Geass meets Umineko
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Old 2008-01-18, 02:35   Link #35
kj1980
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Speaking of which, zts' "Worldend_dominator" kicks ass...it's one, if not the best music in Umineko Ep. 2
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Old 2008-01-18, 14:01   Link #36
nagare
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I'm late to the party.
I finally got my copy and finished it.
Before I go on, I’ll apologize for my poor English.
I have a long post and I’ll try to make it as comprehensible as possible. ^^;

First impression.
一流の執事はすごいね。 源治さん渋スギ

Overall impression.
Even though I don't know what the answer is, but Umineko doesn't seem as confusing or as difficult as Higurashi (not claiming the mystery itself is easy). It's enjoyable in its own right, but since it lacks the OMG WTF shock factor, it isn't as engulfing as a story as Higurashi, at least imo.

Battler vs Beatrice sideline commentary.
It’s interesting. I like their interaction and their belittling snipes they make towards each other. I feel the red text is a bit cheating in a way. Ryukishi can describe it better, but it just seem like an opt out. It saves a lot of writing I guess… but, it just doesn’t feel right.
But I love how Battler says 俺は人間を信じてるからだッ!! and continues to fight for this logic, although I think Battler is wrong in that regard but it was awesome.

Just a random thought about that date: I wonder if Ryuukishi chose the 4th and 5th as 死 and 後 and to continue off the number theme as with Miyo and Hifumi? I can’t think of any significance with the date itself, but it’s interesting that Ryukishi chose to emphasize Halloween at such an early part of the month. Halloween that year was a Friday so I think he could have pulled off the same story using that date instead. I’m probably thinking too much into the date.

Spoiler:
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Old 2008-01-20, 12:11   Link #37
theacefrehley
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Finally finished it

I didn't think it to be that bad that red text
Some of them were really cheating but some others were just a saving of time that Battler would be thinking endlessly without Beatrice's help


Peroyasha
I'm envious of you
I'm so stupid I can't even create such large scales theories hehehe

1. About "Leon" (瑠音)
I think he/she is not mentioned a second time in this story
The ones mentioned on episode 1 were 眞音 (Manon) and 恋音 (Renon)

But I'll list some fact I think are interesting (I'm not on the side of the magic believers)

- Shannon's first meeting with Beatrice
1. Shannon had been humiliated by Eva
2. She had neglected her breakfeast
(…朝食を疎かにした紗音は、もう思考も希薄になり始めていた。)
3. Natsuhi scolded her and said she would not allow her to eat or take a rest until she finishes her job and report it to her.

Could it be that:

A Broken heart + hunger + humiliation = Beatrice's portrait talking ?

Well, it crumbles because Kanon also saw the same "Beatrice"

- That whole Rosa being possessed by an Evil Witch is very supicious. It only enforces that anyone could deceive Maria to play a part in the plot. And it would be for example that envelope that appeared out of nowhere in Kinzou's study on episode 1.

- That scene where the adults meet with beatrice at the sanctuary to me strogly points at a 19th person. Without a 19th person (not necessarily a witch), everything gets so difficult to understand.
Kyrie seems to be as skeptical and rational as Battler. She told about her meeting with Beatrice to Rudolf, Eva and Hideyoshi beforehand and seemed really puzzled about her. Another point to the existence of the 19th person.

- Those fighting scenes involving the superpowerful furniture are really mindboggling. I don't have the slightest idea what they mean. The scene with the fake Kanon at the servants room you could explain as a lie of the servants to plot something. I don't agree with that but it's not unreasonable. But what about Kanon fighting for Jessica and Shannon fighting for George? Only the readers know about that. The characters only see the result.

- Maybe the three golden bars at the sanctuary plus Rosa trying to take one at the epilogue are suggesting that this time Rosa was spared for not having a golden bar?

- Last chapter Battler was drunk. We can accept all that mess, including that congratulation ball, as a result of the alcohol.

- Lastly, a part of the tips that I thought to be interesting:

Rosa executed:
行方不明。

 黄金郷で、ようやく黄金より大切な自分の宝物を見つける。
 しかしそれは束の間のこと。
 馬鹿のせいで、彼女はせっかく見つけたそれを再び見失わなければならない。

 後は悪魔どもにばりばりかじられて、地獄行き。

Maria Executed

行方不明。

 黄金郷で、ママがまだ愛してくれていることを知れた。

 とりあえずは満足。

The interesting part is this:
Both have:

"黄金郷で"

"At the golden village/land"

Well
Maybe it's just bullshit but it may be a clue for what the heck is that golden village

In the end,
I think I'll go with the theory of the guy of Ep.1 thread.
There's a secret investigation team hired by someone (I'd strongly suspect Rosa or Krauss) to search for the gold and an "actress" to play the role of Beatrice and spread chaos (for what?) taking advantage of the riddle and the portraits of Beatrice of the Dotard Kinzou. Something like a Yamainu 2.0. And as pointed by kj1980, in the end the goat-heads dying only when shot in the head might be a hint for an armored vest
However, something goes very wrong (or not) in the middle of the operation and we have the massacre.

Heck...
Ryuukishi was serious when he challenged people to deny the witch until the end before releasing episode 1.
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Old 2008-01-20, 13:07   Link #38
Sterling01
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Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
Finally finished it

Heck...
Ryuukishi was serious when he challenged people to deny the witch until the end before releasing episode 1.
Don't mess with Ryuukishi.

Though I'm sad it seems as if I'm the only one who belives that it's the work of the golden witch

Also I have a few comments about the music

First off, Worldend is Umineko's You.

Also I find it interresting that both Battler's and Beatrice's theme music have Dread in the title

Battler: Dread of the Grave
Beatrice: Red Dread

@ace: Since I started to translate Ep 2, I found out just how hard of job you had with Ep 1. You now have my upmost respect
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Old 2008-01-21, 01:27   Link #39
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There's a big problem with Battler's last scene. You can try to write it off as a hallucination or him being drunk (assuming we're viewing it from his point of view), but neither is actually possible. Ryukishi has written a lot of weird things, but they all have some explanation in the end.

There is no way Battler could have dreamed up Frederica. He could not have known what she looked like.

Although he might have some knowledge of her from the Higurashi novel, he still wouldn't know what Rika looked like, nor would he have any reason to think of her at that time. This also brings up a more interesting question. Frederica must have appeared in that last scene, and must have either been a real person or something with the appearance of a real person. We can guess from the ???? that she is the same Frederica from Higurashi. That means that even if the Umineko universe is not the same as the Higurashi one, the both exist in the same set of worlds that Frederica can travel to. If that is the case, then there must be some significance to the novel in the first chapter and the highlighted section the lyrics of tsuru pettan (though I hate to admit it.) This only makes sense if there are some major secrets from the previous games that are going to be unravelled.

The thing that confuses me most is that Beatrice said that Frederica had the power to make any event that was possible definitely happen. But if we look at the normal interpretation of the Higurashi games, each universe existed separately and Rika and Hanyuu only travelled between them. In other words, they didn't change any of them, but only found one of the rare ones in which it was possible to survive 六月. In other words, they should have been extremely powerful from their own point of view, but as useless as any other omniscient girl would be in the eyes of anyone that did not follow them every single time they jumped. Does Beatrice's comment mean that only the last world existed and that the multitude of カケラ were only "possibilities"?

This might also clear up the thing that confused me about the first series. It seemed that only in the last few iterations of Hinamizawa did anyone remember the past worlds clearly. In Tsumihoroboshi hen Rika admitted that she had never seen it before. In the very next chapter, almost everyone recalled clear memories from previous worlds. If Hanyuu and Rika were just transferring to different worlds without changing the histories of the previous ones, there is no reason that any world would be any more likely than any other to show these impossible memories.
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Old 2008-01-21, 02:18   Link #40
nagare
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
Peroyasha
I'm envious of you
I'm so stupid I can't even create such large scales theories hehehe
I'm sure Ryukishi will make a fool out of me in the coming episodes. ^^;

Quote:
1. About "Leon" (瑠音)
I think he/she is not mentioned a second time in this story
The ones mentioned on episode 1 were 眞音 (Manon) and 恋音 (Renon)
Ah ^^;
I forgot the kanji was different. Saw 瑠音 (Runon) thought 恋音 (Leon). opps.

Quote:
A Broken heart + hunger + humiliation = Beatrice's portrait talking ?
lol

Quote:
- That scene where the adults meet with beatrice at the sanctuary to me strogly points at a 19th person. Without a 19th person (not necessarily a witch), everything gets so difficult to understand.
I think adding a 19th person just makes anything possible. There might be others on the island. But there's really nothing but hearsay on that topic. I figured that the whole parents accepting Beatrice in the sanctuary (good tl) was them seeing the gold bars with with the wing symbol, accepting the fact that "Beatrice" exists because the gold does.

Quote:
But what about Kanon fighting for Jessica and Shannon fighting for George? Only the readers know about that. The characters only see the result.
I was thinking that "Beatrice" wants us to believe there was a struggle in Jessica's room. The Shannon's, George's, and Gohda's death has me puzzled b/c the order doesn't match the picks.

Quote:
Something like a Yamainu 2.0.
I found it funny that Hideyoshi mentioned 小此木食品.
I bet it's just a name recycled.
Plus instead of mountain dogs we have mountain goats now (山羊).
次回は、山猿か山姥かな?
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