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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 15 Rating
Perfect 10 107 55.73%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 48 25.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 13 6.77%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 4.69%
6 out of 10 : Average 4 2.08%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 4 2.08%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.52%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.52%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 5 2.60%
Voters: 192. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-01-23, 17:32   Link #441
Slayerx
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I have a feeling we will see more pilots like Joshua... aces that are introduced in one episode and then killed off quickly... i mean, Soma and Sergei were making a pretty big deal out of that Second lieutenant they lost a few episodes ago... sure he was faceless, but he did have a name and his death did show some impact on Soma, so that's pretty close to being like Joshua

Y'know, if Joshua had to die the way he did, i think there is one thing that would have made him less like a Heine reincarnation... If last episode he was introduced along with serveral other named faced Aces... As it was, he feels like a Heine caused it seemed like he would have some importance, like a potnetial rival for Graham or somethin; however, if he was introduced as part of a bunch of other Aces, his importance would have felt more downplayed as he's only about as important as the other Aces, and we know they ALL can't be rivals or important...

Essentially, Joshua and the other Aces would be a bunch of Aces, that are better than grunts that have names, faces, personalities and interact in a semi meaningful way with those around them, but are subject to dying at any point and time in the series... Y'know, to give that feeling of "omg a character/non-grunt died, how sad" without them having to actually kill off someone important; killing supporting characters instead of secondary and main characters... i think Victory Gundam and Zeta gundam has the best examples of that... grant it, those Aces would be at a disadvantage; since they are on Union side and not CB they will not get as much screen time as those characters in Zeta and Victory did
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Old 2008-01-23, 17:40   Link #442
AuditionEX
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One of the thrones is just like Epyon Gundam :x
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Old 2008-01-23, 17:47   Link #443
Demongod86
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Originally Posted by lordgemini View Post

Also a reflection; What happen with Sumeragi? She knew all the plan to catch the gundams (Billy tell her) even the part to tire the gundam meisters, so , Why she didn't make a plan to counter it ?????
She made several plans. In case you didn't see the sub, she was constantly saying that they should switch plans at about a certain time.

What I still don't understand is this:

Lockon snipes terrorists...missiles incoming...

Why not take a FEW hits and get the hell out of there with your faster gundams than stay there and get bombed by a bazillion? The Meisters KNEW there were hundreds of MS, they KNEW the plan was to capture the gundams (hence there were multiple plans to retreat), so why not just get out of there and take a few missiles? Surely they got hit by more over the course of the fight than if they had taken a few hits on high-tailing it out of there...

But then again, that'd spoil the whole premise of the episode. Hence my point that the protagonists suddenly get loaded up with SUCK in order to make the new bandai money-milkers seem more PWN. Had Kyrios and Dynames just turned around and flown back into the clouds (WHICH THEY COULD HAVE DONE VERY EASILY, MISSILES OR NOT), the 3 powers would have been left sitting there looking stupid.

If Lockon and Allelujah knew the limits of their machines (which would be a logical assumption to make at this point in time), they would NOT have gone down just to get pinned.
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Old 2008-01-23, 17:48   Link #444
Demongod86
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Originally Posted by AuditionEX View Post
One of the thrones is just like Epyon Gundam :x
Wrong. The gray one (Eins) is a complete beam-spammer. The second one (Zwei) is for some reason a melee machine with Dragoons that function on earth but is really skinny. The third one (Drei) looks like a protoss.

And for the record, the Epyon would probably trash any one of those three.
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Old 2008-01-23, 18:00   Link #445
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
Wrong. The gray one (Eins) is a complete beam-spammer. The second one (Zwei) is for some reason a melee machine with Dragoons that function on earth but is really skinny. The third one (Drei) looks like a protoss.

And for the record, the Epyon would probably trash any one of those three.
The epyon does not stand a chance, How can you say that, and its good to see a meele gundam that is able to use these bits in earth. look at the strike freedom it was able to use dragoons in space only but it was a all rounder performer, useing long range and melle style combat. but the Zwei as we look at it can specialize in both Melle as a attacking force and Long Range as a Defence style. only speculating.
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Old 2008-01-23, 18:12   Link #446
Narutaro
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
Had Kyrios and Dynames just turned around and flown back into the clouds (WHICH THEY COULD HAVE DONE VERY EASILY, MISSILES OR NOT), the 3 powers would have been left sitting there looking stupid.
you don't know that, many things can go wrong even if they do that. here's what I think the strategy Sumeragi planned out.

in the best scenario, Kyirios and Dynames get the hell out as fast as they can after they finish their mission. unfortunately they got caught with the missiles and some ms that self destruct.

because of that, the plan move to exia and virtue, the plan will be using burst cannon to create trenches so dynames and kyrios can take cover from the missile while regrouping with exia and virtue. the real plan is probably for virtue and exia run toward dynames and kyrios as well, aid them, and later use another burst cannon to force their way through. but world power'sretaliation after the 1st burst cannon is much quicker than they expected. so they got stuck there with the bombardment with only exia to shield virtue when he need to recharge

that probably won't be as bad as it is, if kyrios and dynames can get to exia and virtue fast enough to help them, enough to shield virtue, probably with kyrios gn shield that is similar to virtue to buy time for vrtue recharge and use another burst cannon to force their way out. unfortunately again, soma interfere and kyrios got his headache problem. thing just goes downhill after that
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Old 2008-01-23, 18:16   Link #447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Narutaro View Post
you don't know that, many things can go wrong even if they do that. here's what I think the strategy Sumeragi planned out.

in the best scenario, Kyirios and Dynames get the hell out as fast as they can after they finish their mission. unfortunately they got caught with the missiles and some ms that self destruct.

because of that, the plan move to exia and virtue, the plan will be using burst cannon to create trenches so dynames and kyrios can take cover from the missile while regrouping with exia and virtue. the real plan is probably for virtue and exia run toward dynames and kyrios as well, aid them, and later use another burst cannon to force their way through. but world power'sretaliation after the 1st burst cannon is much quicker than they expected. so they got stuck there with the bombardment with only exia to shield virtue when he need to recharge

that probably won't be as bad as it is, if kyrios and dynames can get to exia and virtue fast enough to help them, enough to shield virtue, probably with kyrios gn shield that is similar to virtue to buy time for vrtue recharge and use another burst cannon to force their way out. unfortunately again, soma interfere and kyrios got his headache problem. thing just goes downhill after that
You took my explanation and shortened it so much. Dammit I need to finish this report faster.
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Old 2008-01-23, 18:17   Link #448
darkprimus
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After thoroughly looking over the battle from this episode and reflecting on the various Gundams' abilities, I'm disappointed in Sumeragi's battle plan.

Dynames can shoot targets in orbit from the ground and I'm willing to assume that it works the other way round. In the episode Dynames and Kyrios came in far too low to attack the terrorists and opened themselves up to return fire unnecessarily. I would have positioned Dynames with Exia as support (armed with an additional beam rifle to supplement the one in its shield) in the upper atmosphere with Virtue and Kyrios would be positioned lower to act as second stage support (more on that later).

By doing this you automatically eliminate any MS that are incapable of atmospheric flight, making them non-issues. The artillery present in the battle is rendered moot. Since Sergei was so amazed at Dynames' long range ability I think it's safe to assume the 3 super powers do not possess any unit that has sufficient range to attack an MS that is in the upper atmosphere from the ground.

Now, the only effective way to attack the Gundams are with missile barrages and flight capable MS. The mass bombardment plan the 3 had is now null and void. Exia should be able to target a decent percentage of the incoming missiles (the reason for the second beam rifle) with Dynames joining in for support. Their high position also gives them the high-ground, granting them more time to maneuver out of the way of incoming enemy fire. Also, any enemy unit that closes in to melee range will easily be dispatched by Exia, eliminating another threat to the Gundams.

Their high position also affords them another advantage. The enemy forces must converge on their position and will have to fly upward to do so as compared to their normal observed flight altitudes. This is where Kyrios and Virtue enter the picture. Kyrios can fire its own missile barrage at the enemy MS and obliterate them. Meanwhile Virtue can fire a Beam Bazooka blast at the enemies on the ground like in the Moralia intervention to eliminate them. Combined with the actions of Dynames and Exia they should have destroyed or damaged the entirety of the first wave of attackers.

This leaves the 3 power's plan in disarray and will most likely cause them to scramble their airborne units to attack the Gundams. During this gap time before the second wave can be set up to attack and more units can be launched Kyrios and Virtue can begin their escape with Exia flying down to support them and Dynames switching to long range tactical support.

At this point the only option the 3 powers have is to mob the Gundams (similar to the HRL strategy earlier) in between missile barrages to try and prevent counter-attack by the Gundams. If we had numbers on how many units were actually flight capable I'd be able to assess this next stage better, but we don't so I can only do the best I can in terms of what would make for interesting story.

All 4 Gundams should be able to regroup before the other sides have regrouped sufficiently to launch a strong attack and can begin their individual escape plans (as splitting up is the only way to force the 3 powers to divide their military strength as a 4 vs 800+ match up is not going to end well for the Gundams). Seeing the 4 Gundams go their own ways will lead to the 3 powers to split off (effectively ending their initial bombardment plan) and beginning their respective Gundam capture plans. In the event they all decide to go after a single Gundam the other 3 can provide support, however this is a highly unlikely scenario.

Sergei's unit, the Over Flags, and Patrick's team will all be launched to pursue their targets. Similar to what we saw they will be at the tail end of their military's assault. The other (more so cannon fodder) squads will go in first using wave tactics in an attempt to wear down to Meisters and do some damage, while at the same time using (most likely) some back up plan formation to try and create openings for the specialty teams to begin their capture operations.

The major difference here will be that the Meisters will not be exhausted following 15 hours of continual bombardment from the enemy forces. At this point the battle will probably have only lasted 1-2 hours. However, owing to the sheer number of enemy MS this escape stage will probably last several hours, but certainly less than 15. Since their are only 3 militaries though 1 Gundam should be more or less left unmolested (we'll call it Exia in this case as in the series). This leaves the door open for Ali to come in. A real wild card his presence can't really be accounted for from Sumeragi's postion so I won't either.

From this point it comes down to what the individual Meisters can do against their respective pursuers. Provided Tieria remembers the shoulder Beam Cannons he has on Virtue instead of solely relying on his GN shield and Beam Bazooka he should be OK. Allelujah should also escape just fine given the incredible flight speed Kyrios has. This leaves Dynames to be concerned with.

To ensure everyones safety it would be best for the Gundams to have criss-crossing escape routes. This way the various militaries would be forced into opposing positions regarding their Gundam capture plans. Although it seems like a bad idea on the face of it to purposefully squeeze yourself between 2 enemies, the objective here is to limit either sides firepower. Even a "friendly fire" incident between the 3 powers during this exercise would be a highly disagreeable option. If the flight paths can be properly arranged you can repeatedly limit just how much weapons fire they can direct at you (not wanting to hit the others side's MS) while having no such limits on yourself. It also allows the Gundams to continue supporting each other without interfering with any of their individual escape plans should it come down to having to abandon another Meister.

Through careful planning of this you should be able to create a situation where only the 3 elite anti-Gundam units are left along with the 4 Gundams. If I was Ali, this would probably be the moment I would strike. As the numbers on the other sides decrease, the criss-crossing paths plan loses its efficiency and becomes more and more of a risk. The Meisters will all be essentially solo at this point and this is when Ali can swoop in and attack Exia. With the help of his mobile armor Ali will probably be able to take Setsuna down as he did in the episode as he relied more on surprise than anything else.

Patrick and team will probably fail against Virtue since it should still be operating well unlike when they attacked it in the episode but I can imagine that they will get in some good hits and Tieria will have taken some damage from those vibro-shields the other Enacts were using leaving him open to some last ditch attack.

Allelujah will either have relatively smooth sailing or become involved in some hard combat depending on whether or not Soma gets near enough to him to cause him to have a psychotic break. Based on their previous encounters I'm betting it will be the latter and we will see a battle very much like the Gundam capture episode with Hallelujah and Allelujah switching off repeatedly causing Kyrios to take more damage than it should and possibly leading to a capture.

Lockon will most likely take some of the Over Flags down, but will end up being captured none the less. His unit really isn't designed for melee combat and given the speed of the Over Flags they should all be able to close on him faster than he can get away from them and eventually he will simply be overwhelmed and Dynames will be incapacitated as in the episode.

In summary, Exia and Dynames will most likely end up captured with Kyrios and Virtue getting out more or less OK unlike what we saw in the episode. This also would allow them to go back and save Setsuna and Lockon without the need for the Thrones (provided they do it immediately, if not then the Thrones are completely necessary). If for plot purposes all 4 Gundams really do need to be captured I have left plenty of room for it in the assessment during some final match up battles.

Addendum: Provided it would work the best option would have been for Virtue and Kyrios to be sent in. Virtue would have been able to obliterate the terrorists with the Beam Bazooka and shoulder Beam Cannons (yet again, just like in the Moralia intervention). After that, no matter what happens Virtue activates its GN shield (we saw in this episode the shield can encompass another Gundam) and rides Kyrios out of there.
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Old 2008-01-23, 18:23   Link #449
Itadakimasu!
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As I said, ambushes are only effective if the enemy has the advantage of surprise. I don't understand why Tieria's heavy weaponry was not brought to bear against the AEU, HRL command centres , with Exia acting as support. Hell, they could have sent Allelujah in alone and repositioned Lockon to attack the batteries in order to draw their fire away from him....

But the episode was still awesome anyway.

And also... I think we're all overlooking one of the key factors that influenced the current CB team. As was pointed out in episode 14, they treat the gundams not simply as military machines. The entire team is too dogmatic in its belief that the gundams are a symbol of peace. It runs through their strategic thinking (which was to run instead of smash the enemy).

The Thrones most likely have a very different dogma, one based on annihilating all potential threats rather than intervention only when post facto.
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Old 2008-01-23, 18:27   Link #450
darkprimus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordgemini View Post
Now IMHO:
About the best and the worst gundam Pilot, i think the worst is Lockon, not because he is not powerful enough, in fact he is my favorite gundam meister, but his true ability is as a sniper and as a soldier, if he was a great pilote, he would not need a Haro to help him in navigation and defense. They want a sniper in that gundam, not a pilot.
I would just like to point out that when Lockon is sniping he uses that Guncon to attack. While using it he can pretty much only see his target, much like a real sniper. This is why in the real world snipers usually work in pairs so someone else can keep watch over their position and protect the sniper while he snipes.

Lockon can't physically use the Guncon and pilot the suit properly at the same time. He needs Haro because it's just not possible for him to look through the Guncon while keeping his other eye on on the cockpit screens. He tends to use two hands with the controller as well, so he'd need an additional set of arms to operate Dynames.
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Old 2008-01-23, 18:37   Link #451
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@darkprimus: I think you assume too much about Dynames' abilities to pinpoint such small targets from orbit. Dynames took care of ground-to-space sniping just fine sure, but that was hitting drifting parts of a space station. You also can't assume the same variables in the reverse process.

And granted that it was possible and that things play out according to the way you predict, the real problem I have with your plan is that you still leave the Gundam Meisters hanging out to dry after all of that battling.

At least Sumeragi's plan exploited every chance they had to evacuate all the Meisters to safety.
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Old 2008-01-23, 18:51   Link #452
SoldierOfDarkness
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Is Dynames' weapon even capable of orbital fire?

From the looks of it he needs quite an awful lot of heavy equipment to carry around and stability in order to fire. It also looks like he needs an outside power source as well. Ground to space is one thing but reversing is another.

Last edited by SoldierOfDarkness; 2008-01-23 at 19:02.
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Old 2008-01-23, 19:06   Link #453
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I agree, I don't think Dynames can snipe from space. the episode where he have the space sniping, he have big equipment to aid him and probably recharge the power of the beam and for other purposes.

if space to ground sniping is really possible to the accuracy of hitting only one mobile suit, they really have no need to ever go down to earth, just spam space sniping for every mission and they'll be safe.

sorry darkprimus, I skim you long post and find out it all revolve around space sniping from above, which I think is not possible. and since I already post my reasoning on why it's not possible, I don't read the rest of your post in detail.

edit: @itadakimasu, probably because they have 3 command center for each faction and virtue can only shoot 1 shot at a time, doing that while going to cripple 1/3 of the world's power, it didn't help kyrios and dynames to get out and try to regroup
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Old 2008-01-23, 19:24   Link #454
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You say about using Virtue instead of Dynames. Were you paying attention to what was being attacked by the terrorists? You don't want to accidently hit the plant. Which by using Vrtue, you vastly increase the changes of happening if they aren't hit far enough out. This is why these terrorists were used as bait. There's no way Cb couldn't intervene with potentially the whole world at stake.
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Old 2008-01-23, 19:25   Link #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terra View Post
You say about using Virtue instead of Dynames. Were you paying attention to what was being attacked by the terrorists? You don't want to accidently hit the plant. Which by using Vrtue, you vastly increase the changes of happening if they aren't hit far enough out. This is why these terrorists were used as bait. There's no way Cb couldn't intervene with potentially the whole world at stake.
Simplest and most effective explanation, and yet somehow I missed it. *facepalm*
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Old 2008-01-23, 20:06   Link #456
wingdarkness
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
She made several plans. In case you didn't see the sub, she was constantly saying that they should switch plans at about a certain time.

What I still don't understand is this:

Lockon snipes terrorists...missiles incoming...

Why not take a FEW hits and get the hell out of there with your faster gundams than stay there and get bombed by a bazillion? The Meisters KNEW there were hundreds of MS, they KNEW the plan was to capture the gundams (hence there were multiple plans to retreat), so why not just get out of there and take a few missiles? Surely they got hit by more over the course of the fight than if they had taken a few hits on high-tailing it out of there...

But then again, that'd spoil the whole premise of the episode. Hence my point that the protagonists suddenly get loaded up with SUCK in order to make the new bandai money-milkers seem more PWN. Had Kyrios and Dynames just turned around and flown back into the clouds (WHICH THEY COULD HAVE DONE VERY EASILY, MISSILES OR NOT), the 3 powers would have been left sitting there looking stupid.

If Lockon and Allelujah knew the limits of their machines (which would be a logical assumption to make at this point in time), they would NOT have gone down just to get pinned.
Dude, how do you know it wasn't Veda's or CB's faceless leader's plan to have the Meisters get pwned to test their faith and commitment? Or even part of some other contingency just to get the Thrones on the scene...EXACTLY, THEY KNEW, so maybe there is a REASON they fought them KNOWING what THEY KNEW...I mean Sumeragi and company are chilling in Statlely Wang Manor and for some reason not giving any tactical support...Don't you find that odd? Why didn't the Thrones come out at the 10th hour mark or 12th hour mark? Why wait til each Meister was in complete mortal danger? MAYBE, it was planned like that....

I'm gonna do alot of chuckling after the next few episodes when so many puzzled faces get answers to questions the director has PURPOSELY left out...Even when understanding the fact that Gundam is trying to sell models (WHICH EVERY G-SHOW HAS TRIED TO DO) it's such surface-dwelling to take that as the complete reasoning for any and everything...To just ignore the writing that has to make this happen with the understanding that at some point we have to incorporate new suits...

Oh lets get Kira Freedom! SO does that make the expressionism of the fight between Athrun and Kira garbage because we all KNEW the two units were being destroyed to bring in new ones? O_o I could go thru countless Gundam examples except for Turn-A which had all internal upgrades, but the point is (Not that you will ever concede to it) is that just because we all KNOW Gundams are being trashed to bring in new Gundams, it doesn't mean the way it is accomplished is just Bandai making you suck it's titty...People still have to write these scenarios with intentions of making it GOOD (Which is your choice to judge, but don't judge before you get the facts behind what is happening)...

I mean I hate arguments like this and some of the ones Papaya was making earlier in this thread aswell which force us to speak on the unspoken reality we all KNOW...It's almost the "anime's not real because it's drawn on a piece of paper argument..." You're making points that everyone knows exists, but you do it in a place where people congregate to talk about anime as a literary art (As they would any production, i.e. as if it isn't anime)...Think about the ridiculously in-depth and technical discussions on every Gundam element known to man that has been debated on this site for the last 4 or so years since I've known you...Why the hell would I even log on to discuss any of this $hit if I just looked at this as a cartoon made to sell toys?!?!?! I have to look at context, writing techniques, and indirect hints to tell me there is something more behind the Meisters getting pwned than you getting a new kitbashed Throne model...It's just such an irritating argument to me because if that's how the majority of this site felt they'd be 5 users MAX...

Most of us accept this as more that what the surface dictates and arguments like this and others might aswell come from people who hate or don't understand anime rather than those who love it...

Damn I drifted off into a rant, my badd...
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Old 2008-01-23, 20:13   Link #457
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Originally Posted by Narutaro View Post
I agree, I don't think Dynames can snipe from space. the episode where he have the space sniping, he have big equipment to aid him and probably recharge the power of the beam and for other purposes.

if space to ground sniping is really possible to the accuracy of hitting only one mobile suit, they really have no need to ever go down to earth, just spam space sniping for every mission and they'll be safe.

sorry darkprimus, I skim you long post and find out it all revolve around space sniping from above, which I think is not possible. and since I already post my reasoning on why it's not possible, I don't read the rest of your post in detail.

edit: @itadakimasu, probably because they have 3 command center for each faction and virtue can only shoot 1 shot at a time, doing that while going to cripple 1/3 of the world's power, it didn't help kyrios and dynames to get out and try to regroup
I think it's pretty obvious that such huge equipment is for large and slow moving targets.

Especially given the fact that it has a lengthy recharge rate.
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Old 2008-01-23, 20:48   Link #458
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I know, I just said that to darkprimus why I think it's not possible to snipe from space
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Old 2008-01-23, 20:57   Link #459
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Wow, wingdarkness just exploded
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Old 2008-01-23, 21:05   Link #460
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Why is it so hawt here? XD

anyway guys just chill out
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