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Old 2007-10-23, 02:04   Link #121
sasuke13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rave_master16 View Post
Spoiler for ...:
I agree with that point, if it weren't for that, then Makoto wouldn't have started to go to Sekai for sexual advice.
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Old 2007-10-23, 03:38   Link #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToxicNarcotic View Post
You could label almost every character in this series as a 'victim,' hell, you could label almost anyone in any given circumstance a 'victim.' Hell, everyone's a victim. That's a weak cop out. Labeling people as victims does nothing more than over look their inherent flawed sense of reasoning, questionable actions, and overall strength of character; And in some situations justify their actions, no matter how flawed their logic was.

Sure, it's pretty easy to stack all the blame and wrong on Makoto, and in a lesser degree Sekai, but every other character that experienced pain contributed to a certain degree.
You seem to be missing something out from this...the label victim is something rather objective and it is not easily used unless supported with facts. labelling kotonoha a victim doesnt make her free from any flaw crits i agree but the fact that she is a victim in this story is what matters.
Quote:
She empowered her predators by consistently assuming the role of the helpless prey, failed to believe the truth of what Makoto really was ( a two timing bastard) countless times, went completely insane over an obsession with a guy who blatantly told her it was over, ultimately leading to her
Spoiler for ..":
If that's being mentally strong then how I view being mentally strong is apparently flawed. Ultimately her own weakness of mind drove her into a prolonged state of grief.
You're putting words in my mouth. I didn't say Kotonoha doesn't deserve to live a normal life.
1) "consistently assuming the role of the helpless prey,"

err...its her personality to be shy...i dont not see another hidden personality where she is thinking "right...ill pretend to suffer so others might take pitty on me" which is what you are implying. she didnt fight back because she lacked mental strength to do so...which is a character flaw? or a highly valuable trait? i would prefer her over a loud mouth bitch any day (not because i think she is submissive but because i just love her personality - so much so you would want to embrace and protect such a fragile creature).

2) " failed to believe the truth of what Makoto really was ( a two timing bastard) countless times,"

...while he failed to tell her the truth until she had dug herself into a bottomless pit...

agreed that she should have given him up but by that time she wasnt "sane" as most normal human beings...living in a word of fantasy she only wants to be loved...

3)"went completely insane over an obsession with a guy who blatantly told her it was over,"

The damage was done...the damage was done...

and i said mentally strong for a different thing. this obviously was just too much for her to bare...if you see she has always been confused with the whole situation and being held back on important information for a good portion of the series didnt help either. we actually see that she has a fear of being lonely after gaining some friends for the first time she has been in this school. To know the warmth of another person is something not easily put down.
Quote:
What i'm trying to say is she has Makoto as well as herself to blame.

People go crazy for many different reasons. I've never said she went crazy for no reason at all, so I don't know what your getting at.

Don't try to pin this up as me trying to say Kotonoha is solely responsible, she isn't, but here's a fact, she's not the innocent victim you all portray her as, she had some responsibility in her grief, whether you like to admit it or not.
lol im not putting words into your mouth...just expanding on some points seen as what you said about kotonoha was all negative in that post.

yep im not saying she is totally innocent or whatever but largly she is - id say about 10% of her is the flaws which is low compared to the other girls and "IT".

the only crime she commited has to be going out with makoto and giving him soo many chances in the first place but again that is due to her insecure personality. if you say that it is her fault for being insecure than indeed it is but some people like that.

as for being a victim that she is...no doubt about it she is the victim here even if not fully innocent. I cant say that she brought all of this onto herself because it was mainly sekai's doing but in the later parts she has already shown to be faithful to only one man...shame she was wasted on makoto though
Quote:
Don't throw me in with his lot.

To sum it all up, Kotonaha an innocent angel that wasn't repsonsible for any of the grief that befell her? No. Kotonaha a girl who was probably the most morally upright (well, till the end) who endured through a lot of pain, albeit contributed to it in a way? Yes.
agreed
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Old 2007-10-23, 10:43   Link #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rave_master16 View Post
so what's the truth? Is she a victim or not?
You said she's not a victim? Now I'm confused
Everybody has to blame but the most effects of all the happenings were targeted to Kotonoha... That's why I'm saying she is a main victim... And she was the first victim....
Spoiler for ...:
Sure, you can label her as a victim, as well as everyone else in the series. If you want to use that logic, you COULD say Sekai is a victim of human emotion. We're creatures of emotion, we have thought, but in my experience, emotion is in the end the deciding factor of your actions. You could also tack up Makoto as a victim of sex addiction. See where this is going? Absolutely no where. Like I said, anyone can be tacked up as a victim. Does it really matter if she was the 'Main victim, first victim?' Let's take Sekai for example. Let's assume she was telling the truth about being pregnant. So, she get's left by Makoto, who she was equally obsessed with, after finding out she is pregnant. Is getting thrown to the side by the person you're in love with, while pretty much being told to have an abortion not as traumatic as what Kotonoha went through? In that scenario, does it matter if she was 'the first victim,' or 'main victim?' Also, you sound like Kotonoha's actions shouldn't be questioned because she was a victim. In that case, since Sekai went through just as much trauma, should she also not be questioned for her backstabbing and 'causing' the entire fiasco?

I prefer to take more than a one dimensional perspective on character. Throwing the victim label on someone overshadows their strengths by focusing on their weakness. Also in the manner people like to us it, it also implies that said person was 'innocent' in the entire fiasco. Let's just say, I prefer not to use the term, out of respect for Kotonoha's character.

The label victim is no doubt objective. That's not the problem. The problem is that those who throw the label of victim around often highlight someone's weaknesses as opposed to their strengths. Labeling Kotonoha as a victim does nothing but bring attention to her weakness whereas what we should be doing is identifying her strenghs.

The term victim is too black and white to be used in a world where everything has shades of grey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
You seem to be missing something out from this...the label victim is something rather objective and it is not easily used unless supported with facts. labelling kotonoha a victim doesnt make her free from any flaw crits i agree but the fact that she is a victim in this story is what matters
I beg to differ. The label of victim is easily used because the meaning is rather broad. In being broad it's rather easy to justify someone as being a victim because of the different ways one can perceive what a person goes through. Take my Sekai example, many people don't see her as being a vctim in this story, but rather the instigator, although in my eyes, she went through as much trauma as Kotonoha. In that case, it's rather easy for me to see her as a victim, even though from the comments on this board, quite a bit of people wouldn't. In that case, because of that perception what might justify one person as believing she is a victim might differ compared to the next.

In my eyes, or your eyes, it may not free her from any flaws, but in the manner people have used the term in this thread it does.

All in all, when it comes to the label victim, what i'm basically trying to say is we shouldn't toss it around so much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
err...its her personality to be shy...i dont not see another hidden personality where she is thinking "right...ill pretend to suffer so others might take pitty on me" which is what you are implying. she didnt fight back because she lacked mental strength to do so...which is a character flaw? or a highly valuable trait? i would prefer her over a loud mouth bitch any day (not because i think she is submissive but because i just love her personality - so much so you would want to embrace and protect such a fragile creature).
I probably shouldn't have phrased it like that, I'm in no way trying to imply she's got a hidden personality.

There's nothing wrong with being shy and a bit submissive. When you pretty much let everyone walk all over you and don't think much of yourself that's pretty much an indication of low self esteem, which in my opinion is a flaw in personality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
...while he failed to tell her the truth until she had dug herself into a bottomless pit...

agreed that she should have given him up but by that time she wasnt "sane" as most normal human beings...living in a word of fantasy she only wants to be loved...
While stalling on telling her the truth may justify her ignorance and refusal to believe he was two timing her at first, after seeing it with her own eyes and hearing testimonys, she still ran from the truth. She dug her own pit, with denial as the shovel.

There was still quite a bit of time before she lost all her marbles. She only reallyk lost it after she let Makoto's buddy take advantage of her. To do that, in my opinion, unconsciously she must have known the truth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
The damage was done...the damage was done...

and i said mentally strong for a different thing. this obviously was just too much for her to bare...if you see she has always been confused with the whole situation and being held back on important information for a good portion of the series didnt help either. we actually see that she has a fear of being lonely after gaining some friends for the first time she has been in this school. To know the warmth of another person is something not easily put down.
At first I will admit she was not to blame for her own ignorance. I would disagree that she was held back on important information for a good portion of the show. She was in denial for a good portion of the show. Her own lack of self-esteem contributed to her lonely factor. If you let someone walk all over you, until you take action, that's how they will act towards you for the entirety of the time they know you.
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Old 2007-10-23, 16:23   Link #124
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I know everybody's a victim in their own way but I will tell you again why I said kotonoha is a "victim"... for you it's a matter of innocence... but for me it's a matter of how much trauma and damaged done to a person... Yeah.. Kotonoha sure dig her own grave that's after the what you call betrayal
Spoiler for Kotonoha's top 5 sufferings:

So for me Kotonoha is the main victim... yeah I know Sekai and Makoto were victims to the end.. but to the whole series its Kotonoha....
And I think its a matter of how you interpret the meaning of a victim... and then label it to a person... but for me, a victim is the one who is first damaged, emotionally... and the quantity of suffering she has gone through..
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Old 2007-10-26, 18:48   Link #125
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Should we really be arguing about who is 'more' of a victim? Does it really make any difference who is more of a victim? Personally, I really don't think it does, but then you do. So I guess the best thing to do is to agree to disagree, you have your own opinions and I respect that, but I also have mine, and I don't think they're going to change.
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Old 2007-10-28, 05:56   Link #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rave_master16 View Post
I know everybody's a victim in their own way but I will tell you again why I said kotonoha is a "victim"... for you it's a matter of innocence... but for me it's a matter of how much trauma and damaged done to a person... Yeah.. Kotonoha sure dig her own grave that's after the what you call betrayal
Spoiler for Kotonoha's top 5 sufferings:

So for me Kotonoha is the main victim... yeah I know Sekai and Makoto were victims to the end.. but to the whole series its Kotonoha....
And I think its a matter of how you interpret the meaning of a victim... and then label it to a person... but for me, a victim is the one who is first damaged, emotionally... and the quantity of suffering she has gone through..
wonder how it would of played out if she had killed herself after she had finally broken down? but Alas her lil sister gave her that tiny spark to keep living when she came in<.<
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Old 2008-01-04, 15:25   Link #127
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Kotonoha's too good to be true in the real world for common folk like me, but if ever you encounter someone like that, and is actually interested in you, don't freaking let go as if your life depended on it. In the anime, what happened to Kotonoha affects me the most.
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Old 2008-01-06, 23:26   Link #128
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psycho.....run if you encounter this type of girl
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Old 2008-01-13, 23:05   Link #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbduece View Post
psycho.....run if you encounter this type of girl
Why run i find a girls similar to kotonoha rare and makes a very good wife.
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Old 2008-01-16, 00:44   Link #130
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I've watched hmm 11 episodes now and all I can say is that Makoto is a freaking asshole -.- Switching girls like that and like he's with Hikari while Sekai is worrying / absent at home. After he promised Setsuna to take care of Sekai only. That bastard is really pissing me off.
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Old 2008-01-21, 10:59   Link #131
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I still don't understand why she is so clueless after seeing Makoto and Sekai at the dance. Also, Makoto just said they shouldn't see each other and she is still clueless!

Screw it she knows now. And she looks homicidal. I really feel sorry for her. Makoto is an asshole.

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Old 2008-01-22, 00:40   Link #132
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Eventhough she is portrayed as the most victimize, i think kotonoha's emotional unstableness will get her into trouble eventually even if she hadnt met makoto.

She is a psycho even though shes pretty cute. I guess luck is not on her side. If she met prince charming they can live happily ever after but too bad she didnt get a role in a fairie tale.
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Old 2008-01-23, 05:23   Link #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Droplet View Post
Kotonoha's too good to be true in the real world for common folk like me, but if ever you encounter someone like that, and is actually interested in you, don't freaking let go as if your life depended on it. In the anime, what happened to Kotonoha affects me the most.
That is exactly how i feel too....
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Old 2008-01-25, 19:48   Link #134
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Kotonoha is a sadist, she is cute I like her and all especialy
Spoiler for when...:

I also find her one of the first victims next to Setsuna
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Old 2008-04-12, 07:02   Link #135
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People question why kotonoha never left him after finding out she had been cheated on, but i believe that, since makoto was the very first person to fall in love with her, she did not want to lose him and those never took the initiative to take on another man.Then finally when she gets Makoto bak from Sekai, he dies OMG why her?! I mean throguout the anime i wished he would just die, but after he cried and said 'Spare me this' and 'Why would you want someone like me?' I thought it would be for the best if kotonoha could stay with the only person she ever loved. She also musters the courage to say ' I wont be led astray again' ;;_;;.
1. I felt sick after she got raped (She just went through so much and to a point she lost herself and got taken advantage of)
2. I wanted to cry for kotonoha, but couldnt because of the wtfbbq pwnt makoto
3.Of course women like this exist in the world, shy and everything, and of course they would never snap nor use a knife unless someone ticked them off badly(Sekai with the whole betrayal and killing Kotonohas first and only love). Everyone is calling her a psycho cause of one act of revenge, and she doesnt go berserk, she puts on half a smile and simply slices ^^

Through the stabbing before he dies, Makoto says something in jap, it was tranlated to 'Thank goodness...', All i hear him say is 'Sou ka?' which i know means 'I see' or make it roughly into 'So this is how it ends' after Sekai says 'Your despicable, wanting happiness for yourself'. I got confused there.. or my hearing bad, or i sux0rz at jap.

Also even though the anime is based off it, the anime kotonoha is different from the game kotonoha, simply because in the game, you have control of the storyline (You wanna see her good side? keep her points up. not that ive played the game XD ( it like 8 gigs -_- ill jus buy it) I LOVE U KOTONOHA KATSURA I HOPE YOUR READING THIS ON YOUR BOAT THROUGH WIRELESS NET.
gah evrything that kotonoha went though just affected me so much
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Old 2008-04-14, 03:06   Link #136
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Ok, for today's personal blasphemies

After discovering and watching this amazing anime (that is, School Days of course) I was really sad for Kotonoha. I completely agree with those who said that she's absurdly shy, difficult to approach and, well, "high-mainteinance" (that made my day ), but as everyone knows no one's perfect, and in her case, little missy here has to struggle a lot. Counting in a truly heartless boyfriend who would work better as an attendant of a bordello, four classmates from which comes nothing but bullying and a would-to-be rapist, this is something umbearable indeed. Plus, an apparent friend (Sekai) that cheats on you adds the final blow. Seeing all this was almost painful, and truly I thought that Kotonoha was the best girl of the show.

However.

After seeing the ending I was like "oh Christ ". That is, forget everything I said until now and switch it with a psychotic and deranged personality unable to grasp reality and more than willing to spill blood. Honestly I was shocked, "where the Hell's Kotonoha vanished?" I asked me a lot of times. And in the end, this change that was nothing short of brutal made her crumble to my eyes.

Also, quoting one sentence from the post before:

Quote:
Everyone is calling her a psycho cause of one act of revenge, and she doesnt go berserk, she puts on half a smile and simply slices ^^
If it was just that it would have been a colossal failure of a plot twist, do notice that Kotonoha snapped well before her butchering Sekai, like when she was like a lifeless doll for two or three episodes before the last one. That wasn't just sad, it was frightening.
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Old 2008-04-19, 12:09   Link #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amrael View Post
However.

After seeing the ending I was like "oh Christ ". That is, forget everything I said until now and switch it with a psychotic and deranged personality unable to grasp reality and more than willing to spill blood. Honestly I was shocked, "where the Hell's Kotonoha vanished?" I asked me a lot of times. And in the end, this change that was nothing short of brutal made her crumble to my eyes.
Sad, isn't it

Makoto is getting the blame for that. He shouldn't have been born in the first place -__-

Okey...though I admit I also like Kotonoha's yandere side
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Old 2008-04-27, 02:45   Link #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToxicNarcotic View Post
She empowered her predators by consistently assuming the role of the helpless prey, failed to believe the truth of what Makoto really was ( a two timing bastard) countless times, went completely insane over an obsession with a guy who blatantly told her it was over, ultimately leading to her
Spoiler for ..":
If that's being mentally strong then how I view being mentally strong is apparently flawed. Ultimately her own weakness of mind drove her into a prolonged state of grief.
Spoiler:
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Old 2008-05-05, 13:17   Link #139
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i think out of everyone, kotonoha's the real victim...
she's cute, shy, polite and overall, very innocent, so guys, even girls, make harrasing her,taking adventage of her a very easy job... she was completely in her right for what she did to sekai.... SPOILER SPOILER
but at the same time, she was an unrealistic character, because nowdays, i don't think people actually mind their relatonships and jealousy so much!! but she's a sweet and nice girl overall ^^
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Old 2008-07-01, 13:29   Link #140
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Unhappy

Imo Kotonoha can’t be only defined as victim alone she went thru more
then your average teenager would go thru in fact to lose the friends you
trust to lose the love of your life to even lose your virginity to some random
snob I think yeah that would make you a emotional scar for life…..

As for Makoto part I do strongly believe he was in love with Kotonoha just it
was a love b4 time for him… it was so new and so untouched that he just
could not handle the fragile and gentle Kotonoha I guess it was a bit too
much of work and hassle so of course Sekai would seem as expected easy
to get laid but that was not the true Makoto…

He was in love with a girl that was so deeply touched with him and
that so believed in Sekai to help her get the relation on the tracks coz
Kotonoha just lacked the experience in love department so yeah it is easy
pray again to other people again this is what happens to people that are
in love sadly but true…

I still find it so sad that Sekai could not resist her own feeling for Mokoto
and backstab Kotonoha in the process only to get her own selfish happiness
and totally neglect Kotonoha feelings just for her own sadistic sake…

But alas the rest had a strong part in it too specially that Otome I so
dislike what she did forcing her self on to easy to abuse Mokoto and she
knew that Kotonoha had feeling for him to start with so she opened
the Pandora’s Box so that the rest of the girls would want a piece of the
cake too…

Yes it happens and it is a known factor girls tend to make a competition
of who will get the guy first.

I think in this case the real part of Mokoto died just there he was a lust fiend
and was out of touch with reality most guys would be tempted yet he was
still a bit shy and he felt that his deeds were not going any where
near satisfaction so why…. I think in every bad person how bad he may
be there is still some good too…

Kotonoha on her part was not like that and she endured a lot of pain
and suffering while trying to be Mokoto’s Girlfriend the humiliation the
agony pain total mind abuse what not...

I so love the story that Setsuna told with the flower part I think it was well
placed it showed the true nature of the mess that has started to roll like
a snowball effect.

I guess that in this case Sakai is to blame for the most part then Makoto
though I find him a bit off the hook since when he saw the damage done
to Kotonoha and came to his senses he totally snapped did he deserve
his fait with Sekai?

Yea he did but not like that… I just can’t agree to his end even though
Sakai seems to go Skitzo at the end I still think that she was sadistic jalousie
and did not wish for Kotonoha’s happiness.
Careless thinking of her self let him have his way.
True but at what cost to ruin his and her life for good...

I agree to Kotonoha doing what she did though sad as it may seem to
be in a nightmare and wake up from it to come home and …….
Yes Omg there goes my dream my life my love my beginning why oh
why yeah I guess pretty messy there…

All in all I really feel this anime brought up some deep bitter emotions
above and any one watching this can have mixed feelings as well…
As the truth factor of how things can go from good to totally mayhem
in just a short time…

And the worse of it all is the life after the incidents like
“Nothing Happened At All”
Really disturbing school life remains like it is but a few are umm
missing maybe???

Oh well I guess girls like Kotonoha do really exist and may have similar
experience or even worse just the way life is some times guess… love
can be messy at time…


Message sent…

P.S sorry for my poor English ^^
Be True and Realistic…
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