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Old 2008-01-25, 06:53   Link #1
JediNight
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Have I missed something? Hard vs Softsub

I haven't been involved in any projects for quite awhile now, but last I knew the general feeling on softsubs was "lol, softsubs" or people were neutral on it. Some liking it bc they could set their own fonts if they wanted to.

So I use hardsubs like I have for everything since 2001, and suddenly I'm getting hated on for not using softsubs now, or they "hate the font" etc. (Even though it's a very readable sans-serif font in plain black and white)

More than anything I guess I just dislike the prospects of script-stealing groups. If they want to ask me for permission to use the TL for another language sub, I'd probably be willing to agree. It's the stealing without ever asking or thanking that unnerves me.
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Old 2008-01-25, 07:48   Link #2
ArabianSwan
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I don't really know why some really edgy about others getting their script to use in another language/format. If I'm subbing because I want to help anime fans to enjoy them, why would I care for credits or "thank you" notes!
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Old 2008-01-25, 08:24   Link #3
emptyeighty
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Hardsubs make it easier to upload to youtube, so you have to decide if that or the prospect of someone else stealing your subs - which they can anyway - is worse.
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Old 2008-01-25, 08:44   Link #4
Sylf
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I look at it this way: softsub is a biproduct of h.264. They're not related, but they are.

When people started making h.264 releases, they had to do the right thing and use mkv container. And when they used mkv container, they had to do the right thing and use the softsub. As such, softsub became a part of higher quality package.

And then, there also was a very vocal advocate of softsubs right when this transition started to happen.

Also, as it was already mentioned, reasons to stick with hardsub such as "so it won't be stolen" is now laughed at. "It's so easy to steal anyway." "You stole the anime from the producers, but you don't want your subs to be stolen? You hypocrite." etc...

And thus the one-sided holy war continues.
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Old 2008-01-25, 08:52   Link #5
Hyrrokkin
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My opinion is: Softsubs are crap.

I hate them, hardsubs all the way! Yaay~!
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Old 2008-01-25, 09:37   Link #6
2H-Dragon
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Why all the hate on softsubs? It's basically the same as hardsubs, but you have the option to remove them. If subs are stolen they can also be stolen from hardsubs its just that it takes a little more time(A whopping 30mins more?).

Lets not talk about streaming sites. Since a little bit of rendering will get you the softsubs on them too. But streams are shitty how so I don't know why there is even a debate about that... >_>

Not that I dislike hardsubs in anyway, but why the hate on softsubs? Since softsubs are superior to hardsubs. o_O
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Old 2008-01-25, 10:56   Link #7
JediNight
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I'm not hating on softsubs. I'm hating on people hating on hardsubs.

But you are right I guess when it comes down to it we're splitting hairs about the work to animate the show vs the work to subtitle the show.

If they want to steal the hardsubs then they have to spend the time sitting there writing the script down, still time the episode themselves, etc. Instead of clicking 1 button to strip the file from the MKV and slap it on theirs.

Fansubbing has its roots in the grey where, yeah you're taking anime, but we still have a list of rules/ethics that are followed. So if they're not even willing to ask for the translation, I don't see why I should make it easy for them.
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Old 2008-01-25, 11:20   Link #8
Vexx
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Glances over at sourceforge.net .... <sigh> pros and cons... I just prefer people credit their reference materials.
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Old 2008-01-25, 12:14   Link #9
martino
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
Why all the hate on softsubs? It's basically the same as hardsubs, but you have the option to remove them. If subs are stolen they can also be stolen from hardsubs its just that it takes a little more time(A whopping 30mins more?).
Because many people can't be bothered to install a viable playback solution (NO! NOT VLC FOR GOD'S SAKE!) and thus just end up blaming it on the format instead of themselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JediNight View Post
If they want to steal the hardsubs then they have to spend the time sitting there writing the script down, still time the episode themselves, etc. Instead of clicking 1 button to strip the file from the MKV and slap it on theirs.
Not really, you can rip hardsubs very easily too, maybe not one click, but ripping and editing the subs for a 24 episode show doesn't really take that long (with OCR). Obviously not as easy as with softsubs, but if someone wants to do it there is absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so.
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Last edited by martino; 2008-01-25 at 12:32.
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Old 2008-01-25, 12:41   Link #10
JediNight
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Originally Posted by martino View Post
Because many people can't be bothered to install a viable playback solution (NO! NOT VLC FOR GOD'S SAKE!) and thus just end up blaming it on the format instead of themselves.

Not really, you can rip hardsubs very easily too, maybe not one click, but ripping and editing the subs for a 24 episode show doesn't really take that long (with OCR). Obviously not as easy as with softsubs, but if someone wants to do it there is absolutely nothing stopping them from doing so.
I had hypothesized the existence of OCR software to pull hardsubs and maybe even timings from a video, but I had never looked for such a thing before. I knew it was possible if anyone created it.

But you're right about the softsubs -- VLC handles softsubs like crap. Using CCCP with Media player classic at least renders them properly and then you really can't tell a difference from normal hardsubs.

I'll consider the softsubs, I'm still trying to catch up after having been out of the loop skills-wise for over 2 years now.
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Old 2008-01-25, 13:28   Link #11
Tofusensei
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The appeal of hardsubs for me, anyway, is that as the encoder, you know what the finished product will look like. Softsubs still have too many inconsistencies in playback across multiple platforms.

Other than that, softsubs are great and we do use them for a number of our group's releases.

BTW, Jedi, come onto irc, we'll catch up on old times

-Tofu
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Old 2008-01-25, 16:10   Link #12
cyth
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Two years or so ago I hypothesized about new ways to make subs harder to steal. It was a combination of both hardsub and softsub playback, splitting sentences into two different scripts with missing complementing characters and using ASS pixel spacing to visually place them back to a whole during playback. But my evul dreams were instantly shattered when I figured out you can load .avs files and OCR from there. ;_____________;
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Old 2008-01-25, 19:43   Link #13
Lintendo
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^ That's really clever

As a leecher, I have no right in being choosy. However, I do have a preference for softsubs, since I could make animated GIFs and stuff of the like without having words at the bottom.
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Old 2008-01-25, 20:52   Link #14
checkers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediNight
More than anything I guess I just dislike the prospects of script-stealing groups. If they want to ask me for permission to use the TL for another language sub, I'd probably be willing to agree. It's the stealing without ever asking or thanking that unnerves me.
You should firstly stop believing you have any right to this asking or thanking. Fansubbers get rights the moment they are given them by the content producers. Until then, it is piracy, and complaining that someone is stealing what you yourself have stolen is simply hypocritical.
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Old 2008-01-25, 22:23   Link #15
ScR3WiEuS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tofusensei View Post
The appeal of hardsubs for me, anyway, is that as the encoder, you know what the finished product will look like. Softsubs still have too many inconsistencies in playback across multiple platforms.

Other than that, softsubs are great and we do use them for a number of our group's releases.

BTW, Jedi, come onto irc, we'll catch up on old times

-Tofu
meh, you can't play it decently on macs and not at all on gaming consoles, but w/e...
as i've said before, the main reason softsubs are attractive is the flexibility.
no more reencoding for each damn small error found in an RC, etc
and obviously, multiple stream capacity.
i personally hate notes, that is, when groups abuse them (which nearly every group ever does). when i had to put in notes to explain some stuff, i would just create 2 sub streams: one with notes and one without notes.
anyhow, softsubs are more flexible and easier to use. even tho i don't really care about hardsubbing, i really can't imagine why fansubbers don't make more use of softsubbing.
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Old 2008-01-26, 00:34   Link #16
JediNight
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Originally Posted by checkers View Post
You should firstly stop believing you have any right to this asking or thanking. Fansubbers get rights the moment they are given them by the content producers. Until then, it is piracy, and complaining that someone is stealing what you yourself have stolen is simply hypocritical.
Actually I can, and fansubbers have been splitting hairs like that for over 15 years now so... As I said it's an odd hobby.
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Old 2008-01-26, 01:11   Link #17
Nicholi
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Originally Posted by ScR3WiEuS View Post
meh, you can't play it decently on macs
MPlayer. It wasn't created yesterday. It's been around awhile. It's had SSA/ASS support for over a year now. It is the same thing you would use to play the files on Linux, and only a few minute differences from VSFilter. Anything that would be in a normal main script is easily handled. When you get onto really krayzie signs it might not display them correctly, but it won't crash and they will still see the subs. But it is not like anyone puts complex signs into softsubs anyways, so it is pretty much a moot point. Not to mention the developers have not given up on the project (far from it, lol), so there is plenty of room for improvement and bugfixes. If there even are any major ones.

P.S.
Lol @ xris. Really though, getfresh's troll thread on this exact subject eventually had plenty of useful information. You shouldn't have nuked the entire thing.

Last edited by Nicholi; 2008-01-26 at 01:24.
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Old 2008-01-26, 06:30   Link #18
checkers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediNight View Post
Actually I can, and fansubbers have been splitting hairs like that for over 15 years now so... As I said it's an odd hobby.

You can't just say "well if there are no rational reasons I'll be irrational!". Doing that just makes you Wrong -- and I don't mean wrong in any sort of poor-persecuted-peoples sort of way, I just mean fruity-loop-reality-ignorer wrong.
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Old 2008-01-26, 07:59   Link #19
cyth
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Originally Posted by checkers View Post

You can't just say "well if there are no rational reasons I'll be irrational!". Doing that just makes you Wrong -- and I don't mean wrong in any sort of poor-persecuted-peoples sort of way, I just mean fruity-loop-reality-ignorer wrong.
The thing is though, there *are* rational reasons for using hardsubs, it's just that some people have taken upon themselves to strike down any line of thought that doesn't approve of subtitles being in public domain, and hardsubs shoulder that line of thought more than anything else. Most people perceive this debate as a clash of ideologies, but what it really is is comparison of two fansubbing methods. I have my reasons for disliking softsubs and I have my reasons for disliking hardsubs. Both methods have their petty weaknesses and strengths over one another. The keyword is "petty", and whoever doesn't acknowledge that needs to chill.

That being said, I'd go with softsubs because I don't need to use my machine for reencoding raws. But I really don't care as long as I'm not the one encoding.
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Old 2008-01-26, 10:14   Link #20
Bot1
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Originally Posted by Nicholi View Post
But it is not like anyone puts complex signs into softsubs anyways, so it is pretty much a moot point.
as long as i can play it, it stays in the script. no matter how complex they are
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