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Old 2008-01-21, 09:03   Link #101
Kinny Riddle
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I meant to mention this entry, but somehow I got lazy.

Unrestricted Spell - Jizaishiki 自在式 or Jizaihou 自在法

Derived from the Buddhist term "Jizai" 自在, meaning becoming unbound by the ways of the mortal world upon reaching enlightenment. (If you have any Buddhist friends, ask him for a better explanation. )

Anyway, Unrestricted Spells are basically the magic of the Shana-verse, and the PoE acts as the MP. It can be used by Flame Hazes and Crimson Lords/Denizens alike for their various purposes, such as in battle, functioning of gizmos or Hougus, etc.

Different Flame Hazes and Denizens have various proficiency with Unrestricted Spells. Margery Daw is known among most as one of the few experts in Unrestricted Spells, whereas Shana relies more on her blade, wits, agility and physical "brute" force.


Outlaw

For centuries Flame Hazes have been loners, however, there comes time when they might need to exchange information. Hence certain Flame Hazes decide to settle down and set up a sort of outpost called "Outlaws". These "Outlaws" are generally disguised as pubs or churches or any public gathering place, and are usually kept hidden from regular humans and Denizens.


Humanoid Denizens

In the past, Crimson Lords and Denizens openly devour humans, and they openly manifest themselves the form of all sorts of monstrous forms, leading to various human legends and myths. As human civilization was primitive back then, these Lords and Denizens generally get away with it.

In the past 400 years, as human civilization advanced at a rapid pace, it became more and more difficult for Denizens to appear as something monstrous and not attract widespread attention, hence more and more Denizens took on human form and devoured humans in a more clandestine way.

The invention of the Fuuzetsu around the 30 Years War helped eased the Denizens transition in their way of life considerably.
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哀莫大於心死。
我對這裡的管理員的霸道與毫無準則的執法行為感到徹底失望﹗

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Old 2008-01-21, 11:25   Link #102
Ekoko
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We see people using Unrestricted Spells time and again whether that be tomogara or flame haze. Reflecting on episode 13 with Pheles, I've noticed she didnt emit much of that blue jizaihou line of signs which is apparent in fuzetsu and margery's spells. Also prolonged use of her spells obviously had effects on her gradually weakening her. I'm not too certain but

Spoiler for Episode 14:


If above was true that would mean Tomogara have limited supply before they must consume humans again to recharge right?

What about Flame Haze? Fuzetsu and other spells would take out the PoE within the spell caster aka Flame Haze right? But how come we don't see Flame Hazes actively going out there to feed on humans? Can they simply recharge their PoE through other means like consuming melon breads, cup noodles or booze? Or is there a hidden side to Shana and her Flame Haze friends we are being kept in dark about?

Spoiler for Margery vs Silver Knightmare:


Oh and speaking of which, can you get a english version of the novel? or is that asking abit too much? lol.
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Old 2008-01-21, 12:07   Link #103
KaneDragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekoko View Post
What about Flame Haze? Fuzetsu and other spells would take out the PoE within the spell caster aka Flame Haze right? But how come we don't see Flame Hazes actively going out there to feed on humans? Can they simply recharge their PoE through other means like consuming melon breads, cup noodles or booze? Or is there a hidden side to Shana and her Flame Haze friends we are being kept in dark about?
It doesn't seem to be an issue for them. Denizens need PoE because they're forcibly manifesting themselves directly, where as the Lords of flame hazes use humans, who already have an established existence in the world, as channels. So since they don't have to spend energy maintaining a physical form, they probably just have a lot to spare (as most of their power is sealed away anyway), and it recharges on its own. Is that right?

If Flame Hazes could use their power so freely, Shana wouldn't have needed to use a human's existence to fix the damage in the classroom in the first arc. So there's something else here...
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Old 2008-01-21, 12:29   Link #104
DX HBK
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I wonder how Flame Haze avoid going financially broke. Does the Outlaw also function as a bank of sorts?
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Old 2008-01-21, 12:50   Link #105
Kinny Riddle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ekoko View Post
If above was true that would mean Tomogara have limited supply before they must consume humans again to recharge right?
That would be correct.

Quote:
What about Flame Haze? Fuzetsu and other spells would take out the PoE within the spell caster aka Flame Haze right? But how come we don't see Flame Hazes actively going out there to feed on humans? Can they simply recharge their PoE through other means like consuming melon breads, cup noodles or booze? Or is there a hidden side to Shana and her Flame Haze friends we are being kept in dark about?
Flame Haze are humans to begin with, so they don't "feed" on them. Though to replenish PoE needed to cast spells and power their abilities granted to them by the contracted Crimson Lord, they would need to somehow find ways.

As most Flame Hazes tend to be aloof and indifferent to "Muggles", technically it is possible that they'll just simply kill a human to consume their PoE, but that would defeat their purpose.

So more practically, they would simply find any Torches that are nearby, the more the merrier. As can be seen by Margery powering her spell with Torches in the movie. Though not too much as to upset the balance, just enough would do.

Quote:
I wonder how Flame Haze avoid going financially broke. Does the Outlaw also function as a bank of sorts?
The novels provide some form of explanation here. To put it simply, Flame Haze are incapable of making money.

Most of the time, they simply resort to stealing, since most of the time, no human can catch them anyway.

The "Outlaws" merely functions as a meeting point and nothing more. Though there are some Flame Haze with some form of banking knowledge when they were still mortal and has put it to good use.

(Denizens don't even bother, they just devour rather than pay. )
__________________
哀莫大於心死。
我對這裡的管理員的霸道與毫無準則的執法行為感到徹底失望﹗

It was fun while it lasted.
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Old 2008-01-21, 13:38   Link #106
cnnydz
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a flame haze's POE is fixed on the arrival of the guze no ou, their POE will always return to the fixed level after a while.
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Old 2008-01-21, 15:14   Link #107
DX HBK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cnnydz View Post
a flame haze's POE is fixed on the arrival of the guze no ou, their POE will always return to the fixed level after a while.
So they recharge gradually... nice to know that.

With all the element forces in the Guze going after power of existence, there might be a lot of null existence accumulating in the world.
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Old 2008-01-22, 09:09   Link #108
Kinny Riddle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DX HBK View Post
So they recharge gradually... nice to know that.

With all the element forces in the Guze going after power of existence, there might be a lot of null existence accumulating in the world.
This is where Flame Hazes known as Tuners come in and try to "tune" the reality back to normal in places that were hardly hit by the eternal battle between Denizens and Flame Hazes. Much like how a piano tuner regularly tunes a piano so that it doesn't go out of key.
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哀莫大於心死。
我對這裡的管理員的霸道與毫無準則的執法行為感到徹底失望﹗

It was fun while it lasted.
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Old 2008-01-22, 13:36   Link #109
DX HBK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle View Post
This is where Flame Hazes known as Tuners come in and try to "tune" the reality back to normal in places that were hardly hit by the eternal battle between Denizens and Flame Hazes. Much like how a piano tuner regularly tunes a piano so that it doesn't go out of key.
So Tuners restore a form of order in places that have been chaotically disrupted...

And here I was, thinking that a Guze no Tomogara could try to use any distortion to his or her advantage by drawing upon "null existence" as a substitute to power of existence since the Guze elements seems to break most of the laws of the world constantly, thus allowing what is impossible and unheard of to be within accomplishment.
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Old 2008-01-23, 17:56   Link #110
lua thien
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneDragon View Post
If we can't have human crack troops, humans could at least act as lookouts in every city, perhaps devise Denizen-sensors of some kind (would attaching an anti-Fuzetzu charm to a spy satellite allow it to spot Fuzetzus on Earth?), and then alert Flame Hazes for where to go.
Not a bad thought but Flame Haze and Guze-related forces both prefer to keep this war in secrecy.

Of course, you could have a number of humans act as a third player and began some sort of "holy war" against both the Flame Haze side and the Guze no Tomogara side.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DX HBK View Post

And here I was, thinking that a Guze no Tomogara could try to use any distortion to his or her advantage by drawing upon "null existence" as a substitute to power of existence since the Guze elements seems to break most of the laws of the world constantly, thus allowing what is impossible and unheard of to be within accomplishment.
Quite the SC and SR fanatic, aren't you?

Still, the constant violation of the world's natural laws by the Guze is somewhat true.
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Old 2008-01-26, 00:10   Link #111
KaneDragon
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Is there any power requirement for a Denizen to sponsor a Flame Haze? Could a very weak Denizen decide to join such a partnership for the lulz and simple enjoyment of a concrete existence in this world (and in exchange, giving the human the standard magic (albeit weak) and immortality)? It'd be a (technically) Flame Haze that cared nothing for hunting rouge Denizens (too dangerous, human/Denizen halves too weak) but rather used their power for mundane, selfish reasons.

I like the idea of using FH powers to do mundane/cool things. ^^

Rami is a step in the right direction, but I'm counting him as just a Denizen, since he's the one walking around, and it's not the same deal.
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Old 2008-01-26, 09:29   Link #112
Kinny Riddle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KaneDragon View Post
Is there any power requirement for a Denizen to sponsor a Flame Haze?
In a word, yes. Every Denizen that has contracted with a Flame Haze is of Crimson Lord class.

Quote:
Could a very weak Denizen decide to join such a partnership for the lulz and simple enjoyment of a concrete existence in this world (and in exchange, giving the human the standard magic (albeit weak) and immortality)?
Firstly, the more senior Crimson Lords would not let them, as they're too weak, and it'll be a waste of their resources in this eternal war.

In which case, these curious Denizens have two choices:

1. Behave themselves and stay in the Crimson World until they are "mature", "senior" and strong enough to make a contract with a Flame Haze.

2. Go down the path of the Dark Side and start consuming humans away.

See my "Brief History" below for more.

Quote:
It'd be a (technically) Flame Haze that cared nothing for hunting rouge Denizens (too dangerous, human/Denizen halves too weak) but rather used their power for mundane, selfish reasons.

I like the idea of using FH powers to do mundane/cool things. ^^
That is a major reason why Crimson Lord only choose avengers, since avengers more willing and committed to the cause of hunting harmful Denizens, and it is also a reason why you'll never be a Flame Haze.

The way Shana was raised is unorthodox amongst Flame Hazes.

Quote:
Rami is a step in the right direction, but I'm counting him as just a Denizen, since he's the one walking around, and it's not the same deal.
Spoiler for Concerning Rami - novel volume 10:



Brief history of Denizens in our world

Since time immemorial, Denizens found that they share some sort of resonance with humans, who reside on the "other side" of the dimensional barrier, they were very curious and intrigued about these humans, and the emotions that they emit.

In order to experience such emotions, the Denizens eventually devised a way for them to cross the barrier. By extracting PoE from the humans themselves.

The Denizens poured in, and they enjoyed their newfound senses.

In the beginning, there was still a two-way traffic between the Crimson World and our world. This is where problems begin to surface.

Some of the Denizens noticed that this barrier that they were crossing was beginning to get more and more unstable, making the journey more and more hazardous and deadly.

Eventually, they understood that it is their unrestricted extraction of PoE in our world that is causing this barrier to become unstable, and would one day collapse and create havoc in both the Crimson World and our world.

Disturbed by what they have heard, these Denizens and those that have stayed behind in the Crimson World decide it's time to stop their brethren in our world from causing any more abuse. If they cannot be persuaded, then they must be destroyed. Though they have a few problems.

First, as the barrier is now extremely dangerous to cross, these Denizens agreed that only those with Crimson Lord-class or above who are powerful enough to survive the volatile barrier should make the journey to stop their brethren on the other side.

Though time and time again, there were some Denizens who could not resist their curiousity and temptation that our world has to offer, and took the risk to cross the barrier without aid.

Second, these Crimson Lords would need a physical form once they're on the other side. If they consumed PoE from humans, they would be defeating the whole purpose of their journey, which is to make sure the barrier does not collapse and hence maintain balance.

So they decide to "lend" their existence to certain humans who could resonate with them. They especially seek out those who have been aggrieved by Denizens. These avengers form a contract with these Crimson Lords, acting as the haze for their vigorous flames, hence the term "Flame Haze".

For those Crimson Lords whose human host has been killed, they have two choices:

1. Return to the Crimson World, this means going through the barrier in a weakened state
2. Forcefully manifest with the little PoE they carry with them and go out in a blaze of glory.

Option 1 is reserved for those who intend to return to fight another day, and though quite hazardous, is still better than option 2, which is for those who became attached to their human host and chose to avenge their deaths before dying themselves.

There is also a third option, which is the basis for volume 10. I'll leave you guys to guess what it is.
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哀莫大於心死。
我對這裡的管理員的霸道與毫無準則的執法行為感到徹底失望﹗

It was fun while it lasted.

Last edited by Kinny Riddle; 2008-01-26 at 09:40.
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Old 2008-01-26, 12:05   Link #113
cnnydz
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Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle View Post
There is also a third option, which is the basis for volume 10. I'll leave you guys to guess what it is.
Marchosias said in season I that he would go down the third route if anyone hurt margery didn't he.
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Old 2008-01-26, 20:18   Link #114
KaneDragon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle View Post
In a word, yes. Every Denizen that has contracted with a Flame Haze is of Crimson Lord class.

Firstly, the more senior Crimson Lords would not let them, as they're too weak, and it'll be a waste of their resources in this eternal war.
But that doesn't quite follow. How would the senior Lords prevent lesser Denizens from, er, illegally crossing the border? A dimensional border can't be an easy thing to watch... can it? And where're the wasted resources? They wouldn't be consuming any humans... or is that they'd be an annoying distraction?
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Old 2008-01-27, 03:55   Link #115
Kinny Riddle
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Originally Posted by KaneDragon View Post
But that doesn't quite follow. How would the senior Lords prevent lesser Denizens from, er, illegally crossing the border? A dimensional border can't be an easy thing to watch... can it? And where're the wasted resources? They wouldn't be consuming any humans... or is that they'd be an annoying distraction?
I just answered your question in the "Brief History" segment I wrote.

They can't stop these curious Denizens from going to the Dark Side and crossing the barrier. Nobody said they can be stopped, but their chance of surviving the volatile barrier is at best 50/50.

And even if they do cross the border, they have these choices

1. Form a contract with a human being and interact in the world through a Flame Haze - Resource wasted because they're not strong enough

2. Consume humans right away and live out their desires - Resource wasted for they're lost to the Dark Side

3. Go back to the Crimson World and risk the volatile barrier again - Resource wasted for chances of surviving the barrier is already slim to begin with

4. Run out of PoE and die - Nuff' said

Spoiler for More about Rami:


And Pheles had Johann, meaning there was no need for her to consume humans. Though what happens to her next without Johann is a big question needing to be answered by Takahashi.
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哀莫大於心死。
我對這裡的管理員的霸道與毫無準則的執法行為感到徹底失望﹗

It was fun while it lasted.
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Old 2008-02-15, 09:14   Link #116
Key Board
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Losing your existence by fading away means that people will not remember you,

Yet, it can not undo what you have done so far in life. Ie: having children, inventing something significant, accomplishing something that changed history.

This logical conflict between denial and proof of existence proves one thing for me.

The author has never taken a computer programming class before
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Old 2008-02-15, 11:47   Link #117
Kinny Riddle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
Losing your existence by fading away means that people will not remember you,

Yet, it can not undo what you have done so far in life. Ie: having children, inventing something significant, accomplishing something that changed history.

This logical conflict between denial and proof of existence proves one thing for me.

The author has never taken a computer programming class before
LOL, that's true. Then again, Denizens don't really follow the laws of physics anyway, so perhaps Takahashi can get away with it to some extent.

Since I'm at it, might as well bump this thread back up, does anyone have any new questions they like to ask?
__________________
哀莫大於心死。
我對這裡的管理員的霸道與毫無準則的執法行為感到徹底失望﹗

It was fun while it lasted.
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Old 2008-02-15, 20:36   Link #118
cnnydz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Board View Post

Yet, it can not undo what you have done so far in life. Ie: having children, inventing something significant, accomplishing something that changed history.
this is how consuming POE disrupt the balance of the world (these contradictions won't just go away). otherwise the guze no ou wouldn't need to hunt down their own people.
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Old 2008-02-16, 02:25   Link #119
Key Board
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question:

why do flame hazes, tomogara and torches remember those that have faded away?

how about hougu bearing humans like Eita and Keisaku?
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Old 2008-02-16, 04:40   Link #120
Kinny Riddle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
question:

why do flame hazes, tomogara and torches remember those that have faded away?
The most simple answer would be that they're not human, and are not bound by the laws of our physics, but the laws of the Crimson World. The same goes for specific Mystes like Yuji and Johann.

Flame Hazes ceased being "human" the moment they made the contract with their Crimson Lords.

Quote:
how about hougu bearing humans like Eita and Keisaku?
I'm not sure about humans that come into contact with Flame Hazes and Denizens, like Yoshida, Satou and Tanaka. They seem to remember Fumina, but Fumina is strictly not a Torch but a clone of Hecate, not to mention that the whole Fumina ordeal is anime original.

Otherwise, I've not yet seen any solid cases of them remembering humans that have faded away (like the original Hirai Yukari) yet to make any conclusive answers.
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哀莫大於心死。
我對這裡的管理員的霸道與毫無準則的執法行為感到徹底失望﹗

It was fun while it lasted.
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