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Old 2008-01-21, 07:02   Link #41
theacefrehley
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Old 2008-01-21, 07:20   Link #42
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
There's a big problem with Battler's last scene. You can try to write it off as a hallucination or him being drunk (assuming we're viewing it from his point of view), but neither is actually possible. Ryukishi has written a lot of weird things, but they all have some explanation in the end.

There is no way Battler could have dreamed up Frederica. He could not have known what she looked like.

Although he might have some knowledge of her from the Higurashi novel, he still wouldn't know what Rika looked like, nor would he have any reason to think of her at that time. This also brings up a more interesting question. Frederica must have appeared in that last scene, and must have either been a real person or something with the appearance of a real person. We can guess from the ???? that she is the same Frederica from Higurashi. That means that even if the Umineko universe is not the same as the Higurashi one, the both exist in the same set of worlds that Frederica can travel to. If that is the case, then there must be some significance to the novel in the first chapter and the highlighted section the lyrics of tsuru pettan (though I hate to admit it.) This only makes sense if there are some major secrets from the previous games that are going to be unravelled.

The thing that confuses me most is that Beatrice said that Frederica had the power to make any event that was possible definitely happen. But if we look at the normal interpretation of the Higurashi games, each universe existed separately and Rika and Hanyuu only travelled between them. In other words, they didn't change any of them, but only found one of the rare ones in which it was possible to survive 六月. In other words, they should have been extremely powerful from their own point of view, but as useless as any other omniscient girl would be in the eyes of anyone that did not follow them every single time they jumped. Does Beatrice's comment mean that only the last world existed and that the multitude of カケラ were only "possibilities"?

This might also clear up the thing that confused me about the first series. It seemed that only in the last few iterations of Hinamizawa did anyone remember the past worlds clearly. In Tsumihoroboshi hen Rika admitted that she had never seen it before. In the very next chapter, almost everyone recalled clear memories from previous worlds. If Hanyuu and Rika were just transferring to different worlds without changing the histories of the previous ones, there is no reason that any world would be any more likely than any other to show these impossible memories.
That appearance of Bernkastel in the End could be just a mix of
Battler's drunkedness + "hidden teaparty"
I think it won't hurt to think like that

As for the Witches
I really do not give so much value to them. To me, they are more like, entertainment to the readers and not actively interfering.
Otherwise, it would only cheapen the whole Higurashi series as a plaything of them.

To me all the "kakeras" existed. I don't understand why they wouldn't.

Bernkastel supposed "power" would be to try again and again until the "event" she intends to happen come true. To me it would be BECAUSE her "counterpart" Rika could do so in her journey, with the help of Hanyuu, and not the opposite. Something like the materialization of Rika's will + Hanyuu's power to try again.
The same way, chibi-Takano would be the materialization of Miyo's will and Beatrice the materialization of Umineko's criminal's will.

And also, she said herself she was born from there

今のあなたは、かつてラムダの世界に囚われていた頃の私にそっくりなの。 
過酷な運命の迷路に閉じ込められ、魔女にいいようにいたぶられている。
私はそこから生まれた魔女。

As for the last part (the memories)
That's was explained as "miracle". Or being more pragmatic, in an infinite amount of "kakeras", there must be some where some people are able to recall some memories from some other worlds.









Quote:
Originally Posted by Peroyasha View Post
I think adding a 19th person just makes anything possible. There might be others on the island. But there's really nothing but hearsay on that topic. I figured that the whole parents accepting Beatrice in the sanctuary (good tl) was them seeing the gold bars with with the wing symbol, accepting the fact that "Beatrice" exists because the gold does.


I was thinking that "Beatrice" wants us to believe there was a struggle in Jessica's room. The Shannon's, George's, and Gohda's death has me puzzled b/c the order doesn't match the picks.
But at that scene there was a person talking to them. She even pressed Kyrie to recognize her. She said something like "I only like when it's unanimity".

And
If "Beatrice" wants us to believe that and is messing up what we are seeing, it would be very unfair. We could not believe lots of things we saw.


Just more 2 notes
- Gohda definitely cleaned his image from episode 1. Great dude.
- When Rosa is going to get Shannon, Genji, the gun and see her father, a butterfly lands on her back. Could it be some kind of "tracker" from the Goats (山羊), or better, sheeps of the mountain, yamainu 2.0?
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Old 2008-01-21, 14:55   Link #43
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I think that since Higurashi, nobody wants to trust what Ryukishi actually writes. Many people say that he "lied to the reader" in many cases. Actually, he never did. Everything that we saw that wasn't true was seen from the eyes of a person who was misunderstanding the situation (or crazy), even if it wasn't necessarily obvious which person's hallucination we were seeing. He had to do this; otherwise there would be no reason to play any of the games until the last one because you wouldn't be able to trust anything the author wrote.

We don't know if he'll continue this trend in Umineko, but if he does, we can be sure of two things.

1. If there are no characters in a scene, whatever happens must be true because there are no perspectives we can see hallucinations from.

2. If there is something that we think is a lie, then it must be something that at least one of the characters in the surrounding area believes is true.

If that last scene was a lie, then either Genji, Kinzo, Battler, or Beatrice must have thought it was really happening. If Genji, Kinzo, or Beactice were hallucinating, then that itself would be a big twist, but since we have never seen what any of them were really thinking, it'd be strange if this scene was from their perspective. If the scene was a hallucination, it was almost certainly Battler's, which means that either Frederica was standing in that room, or Battler saw an illusion or hallucination of her. Since Battler had no way of knowing about Frederica's physical appearance (aka Rika), there must have been something in the room that took the appearance of Frederica.

However, that doesn't mean that the whole scene actually happened. Some of the most important clues or foreshadowings in Higurashi were placed right in the middle of some of the biggest level 5 scenes (Meakashi's Shion vs Rika "ha nyuu"). It could mean that the only thing really in that room was Frederica.

The reason I'm arguing along these lines is that I think Ryukishi named this game When They Cry 3 for a reason. These "witches" don't seem to fit well with the Higurashi storyline at all. The whole point of Higurashi was the limited nature of anything supernatural. That's why Frederica being both a real entity in Umineko and the same person from Higurashi is so important. It means that the "witches power" is not magic in the traditional sense, but something to do with the strange space that Frederica exists in and that was never fully explained. It means that there are still parts of Higurashi's story that we have yet to discover and it means that Umineko is not going to become a simple horror/magic fighting story that it is obviously pretending to set itself up as.

The biggest hint that this might be the case are those nice, long chats between Battler and Beatrice. I think that this is probably the real "magic" of this game: the fact the Beatrice can show other worlds to people. Unless we take the route of "Episode 2 is all a hallucination of episode one's Battler," which would suck, then either those scenes are actually Battler being able to view separate worlds, or they are completely meaningless commentary for the readers entertainment. It seems a lot of people have just assumed the second without considering the implications of the first.

It fits well with Rika's power from the first series, and also explains Beatrice's power of being able to kill someone an infinite amount of times. She doesn't actually kill them over and over, she just shows them a scene from a different possible timeline. The reason she should Battler more than just a death scene was because she wanted to not only torture, but to completely demoralize him. If those scenes weren't just commentary, then she must have some motive, and from her actions it seems that its not just the boredom that Frederica had to deal with that is motivating her.

If you accept that this fits, then both of the ???? scenes should be taken more seriously, maybe even literally. While we don't have the reasoning advantage from the main chapter (that anything false must be seen from someone's perspective) because it is not part of the main story, it certainly fits well with the Battler/Beatrice Phoenix Wright scenes.
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Old 2008-01-22, 06:21   Link #44
theacefrehley
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You got my point(s)

I don't mind if something is being twisted when it's coming from the eyes of a crazed person.

However, I thought about that and if that was the case, there would be too many crazed people in umineko at the same time (the same time, I mean those 2 days) what does not happen in Higurashi world. I really would not like to think on a "Rokkenjima Syndrome". I refuse that. It would be a shame for Ryuukishi. But even refusing, I don't have any explanation (Just like Battler ihihihih)

As for the Witches,
I do not like to think that they interefere at all. Just that. I do not have brains to create theories hehehehe.

I like to think that they are a projection of someone (Rika, Miyo, Umineko's criminal) that got independent and started to wander in that world and the most they could do is to prepare the "game board" before the game starts or not even that. And the powers of the first 2 can be seen as their respective counterparts intentions.

I don't have any evidence to support it or theories. It's just my wishful thinking to not spoil the Higurashi world for my eyes. But since ever episode has its own "supernatural party", sooner or later I think you will have your explanation.
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Old 2008-01-23, 18:37   Link #45
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Awww man, I wish I could play this game... but I'm not fluent in Japanese so even if I did get it then I couldn't really enjoy it... though from what I've read in this topic it seems very interesting! Confusing... but still interesting. ^^; I sure hope it becomes an anime, I think I might like it more than Higurashi if it does. =3

Also my favorite characters are Maria, Bernkastel, and Lambdadelta. ^^
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Old 2008-01-27, 00:10   Link #46
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What is 'female humanized furniture'?
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Old 2008-01-27, 00:15   Link #47
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What is 'female humanized furniture'?
Female Humanized Furniture is "Female Humanized Furniture"

Excatly what it implies
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Old 2008-01-27, 00:56   Link #48
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Female Humanized Furniture is "Female Humanized Furniture"

Excatly what it implies
Im confused...
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Old 2008-01-27, 01:07   Link #49
theacefrehley
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In this strange world, they call their "servants" as "furniture"

Some of Beatrice's servants/furniture are girls (or stakes, whatever)
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Old 2008-01-27, 01:10   Link #50
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Im even more confused... stakes?
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Old 2008-01-27, 01:11   Link #51
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Im even more confused... stakes?
They become stakes and pierce people
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Old 2008-01-27, 01:13   Link #52
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Beatrice or the 19th person gouges people with stakes that take the form of Female Humanized Furniture

and don't even get me started on the goat headed butlers
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Old 2008-01-27, 01:38   Link #53
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I really need to get this game...
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Old 2008-01-31, 21:03   Link #54
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What do the goat-headed butlers look like?
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Old 2008-01-31, 22:13   Link #55
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What do the goat-headed butlers look like?
From an older post

Quote:
Originally Posted by theacefrehley View Post
WARNING ==> BEWARE, POSSIBLE SPOILER

Spoiler:
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Old 2008-02-01, 17:40   Link #56
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Yay thanks!

So...who dies in the second episode?
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Old 2008-02-01, 20:29   Link #57
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Spoiler for :
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Old 2008-02-01, 22:57   Link #58
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Ah...wow. So how do they die?
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Old 2008-02-05, 16:28   Link #59
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Several questions..

Spoiler for questions involving deaths and plot:


Thank you so much in advance for clearing all this up for me. I am unable to play the games because I cannot read Japanese nor English very well..(although English I'm fairly fluent in)

Last edited by karurai; 2008-02-05 at 16:54.
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Old 2008-02-06, 10:04   Link #60
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If I answer all this, it will be almost a translation
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