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Old 2008-02-12, 15:05   Link #1
False Dawn
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A Timing Question: How much lead-in/lead-out do you use?

I've just had a small disagreement with a fellow fansubber about the amount of lead-in and lead-out that should be used in releases. This was brought about by him saying that 50ms is more than enough, whereas I said that it wasn't due to the audio/visual mismatch that plagues timing.

So, I thought I'd get a quick headcount, for completeness sake, to satisfy my curiosity on whether I'm the only timer who uses quite long lead-ins and outs (I try to standardize both at 250ms - sometimes less for lead-outs).

So timers, opinions please?
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Old 2008-02-12, 15:49   Link #2
MasterKommander
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Well you already know how I feel about the subject but just to voice my opinion: I like the default 200ms lead-in and 300ms lead-out. Of course this is relative to it's proximity to the previous and next line. Also the complexity of the sentence should be taken into consideration. Some lines that only take 2secs to say may take some people 5 secs or more to read.

50ms is fine if you can read fast, but if you dont read fast thats definitely not enough time.
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Old 2008-02-12, 15:50   Link #3
Harukalover
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I usually stick to around 120-150ms for lead-in and 200-250ms for lead-out.

With the usual 23.976 fps video, one frame lasts for about 42ms. So 50ms for lead-in is rather short.
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Old 2008-02-12, 15:58   Link #4
TheFluff
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120ms lead-in, 240ms lead-out for 24fps. For 30fps, 110/230.
The reason for these very specific numbers is that I don't actually add this myself when audio timing, instead I abuse Aegisub's timing postprocessor to do a lot of dirty work for me and then you have to consider the keyframe snapping thresholds and where you actually tend to place your boundaries when audio timing.

Also consider the fact that long leadins look weird since the subtitles start before you hear someone starts saying anything, while long leadouts are a lot less distracting.
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01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read
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Old 2008-02-12, 17:15   Link #5
cyth
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I just add a 500 ms lead-out and then shift every line back for 150 ms, so I guess it's 150/350. :) I changed them numerous times before; this is a standard I'm satisfied with after 4 years in timing.

But yes, you need a longer lead-in. 50 ms ain't gonna cut it (that's like only 1 frame <_<). Also, you shouldn't worry about the complexity of the line; that's where editors come in. A timer's job is to be consistent with his/her standards.
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Old 2008-02-12, 18:55   Link #6
Nicholi
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Not that I'm a timer, but just to help give some perspective...indeed 50ms is very short. As Toua pointed out it is only a bit longer then 1 frame. A single 23.976fps frame is 41.7ms long. So subs with a 50ms leadin/leadout would generally appear 1 frame before the audio and then of course disappear 1 frame after the audio was done. 30fps frames are slightly shorter, they are only 33.4ms long. Since subtitles have to appear with the video itself knowing the approximate framecount difference is much more important than the time difference. There is no such thing as 1.19 frames later (50ms @ 24fps).

In the end though, you are only talking about stuff that is still less than half a second. I'll bet it would be more beneficial than not to the viewer if you let the subs have a somewhat longer delay. I don't think you will stray into the range of leadin/leadouts that are disastrously long if you are still far under half a second. I myself don't go into the realm of timer perfection though :P.

Last edited by Nicholi; 2008-02-12 at 19:06.
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Old 2008-02-12, 19:42   Link #7
False Dawn
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Heh, Nicholi, we timers have to do something to keep ourselves busy, and optimizing our timing seems like a good choice.

I've also found that I like using 250ms standard because Aegisub's wavelength splits seconds into quarters, and as I don't use the Post-Processor, it's a good marker for me. But then, it seems I have the longest lead-in around. I wonder if it looks weird... :S
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Old 2008-02-12, 19:59   Link #8
cyth
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It's a bit weird, I used it in the past on One Piece because they wanted me to time close to the original timing standard. But it's nothing compared to .5 to 1 second lead-ins. I remember this group that subbed Koi Kaze... ugh.
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Old 2008-02-13, 08:54   Link #9
ffdshow
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Normally it would be 150-200ms lead in, and about 200-250 lead out
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Old 2008-02-13, 13:44   Link #10
juggen
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I'm not really a timer either, lol. (I QC timing though)
But I use 500ms lead-out 50ms lead-in, and 900ms maximum lead-out for linking and scene-timing.

Lead-ins look pretty weird to me, so I don't like it very much.
You can get used to it though... Watching Kaiji from The Triad, and they must be using something like 1sek lead-in.

lead-out is nice though, unless it scene bleed and what not.
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Old 2008-02-13, 15:28   Link #11
False Dawn
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900ms lead-out? That's like a second onscreen without audio...
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Old 2008-02-13, 15:51   Link #12
juggen
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yup =)

50ms+500ms(+400ms).
I see not many like long lead-outs here though >_>
But imo short lead-ins/outs will only result in a bit of flashing subs.

But like... You and Toua use 500ms total, I use 550ms (950ms at "worst," since line linking and scene-timing is nice), I just prefer lead-outs over lead-ins.
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Old 2008-02-13, 18:01   Link #13
cyth
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Uhh, that's a separate process altogether. <_<; My maximum lead out with linking is 950 ms, since I link all lines with a gap smaller than 600 ms.
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Old 2008-02-13, 18:13   Link #14
juggen
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*high fives Toua*

Like theFluff said, I am one of those that think subs that appear before someone starts speaking is weird, I have no problem with subs that stay on screen afterwards though.
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Old 2008-02-13, 18:31   Link #15
cyth
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Well, you're right, it's not so much about adding more lead-in for the sake of viewers having more time to read the lines. Afterall, 150 ms is just 4 frames. I add the lead-in in order to deal with that audio-visual sync problem FalseDawn mentioned in OP. That's the thing about the human brain, it doesn't interpret our senses the way math dictates subtitles. I'm just of an opinion that 50 ms is too little to compensate for that, and anything beyond 200 ms is pushing it. :p Of course, different rules apply when you have scene changes in the vicinity of start times.

If you guys want the viewer to have more time to read the lines, just make the lead-outs longer, link lines, and perhaps even ignore scene timing in some cases. I know people think I bleed from time to time because I leave some lines longer on purpose, but those are usually timers that don't know what "personal standard" means. :p
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Old 2008-02-14, 00:34   Link #16
Teppei
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IMO the timer's job is to place the subs on the screen so they 1) can be read, and 2) don't cause distraction, with (1) being by far the most important. Anything else is personal preference. My personal preference is a bit of lead-in (200ms or so) and as much lead-out as I feel that sub needs to have so people can read it (and if that gets close to a scene change, then I pull it to the end of the scene). My rule of thumb is to see how fast I can read it myself and double that number. I try not to run over scene boundaries unless the at least one full word of the audio is on the other side, and then sometimes even not.
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Old 2008-02-14, 06:58   Link #17
sangofe
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150 ms leadin and 350 ms leadout normally.
But it differs if I'm close to keyframes/scenes.
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Old 2008-02-14, 18:17   Link #18
False Dawn
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I suppose this leads me onto another question then: Is it the timer's responsibility or the editor's on whether a sub is onscreen suitably long enough to be read comfortably?

In my view (bearing in mind that I'm both), I think it is solely the editor's responsibility to juggle the line to make it short enough to fit the Japanese audio. I find that timing is more standardized (albeit by each individual timer) and extending the lead-out to make something more easily read in time seems an odd idea to me (unless it's an extremely short one-word sub, that amounts to less than 0.5 of a second with usual lead-in and lead-out added).

Thoughts?
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Old 2008-02-15, 03:00   Link #19
Koroku
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I rarely add lead-ins, and my lead-outs are normally done per-line. On some really long lines, I'll have basically no lead-out, but on shorter lines, I'll have a pretty large lead-out.

And I'm really picky about scenes, I'll extend a line 10 frames to a scene change if I feel like it
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Old 2008-02-15, 03:14   Link #20
sangofe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by False Dawn View Post
I suppose this leads me onto another question then: Is it the timer's responsibility or the editor's on whether a sub is onscreen suitably long enough to be read comfortably?

In my view (bearing in mind that I'm both), I think it is solely the editor's responsibility to juggle the line to make it short enough to fit the Japanese audio. I find that timing is more standardized (albeit by each individual timer) and extending the lead-out to make something more easily read in time seems an odd idea to me (unless it's an extremely short one-word sub, that amounts to less than 0.5 of a second with usual lead-in and lead-out added).

Thoughts?
I think it's the timer's. Hopefully most group should have standards that make just about anything "read comfortably".
What do you mean by "juggle the line to make it short enough to fit the japanese audio"?
You mean... to edit it, so it's not so long to read?
Of course that is the editor's job. But a timer should be able to correctly split and time the text before editing.
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