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Old 2008-02-14, 23:47   Link #201
Kyuusai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
I always have found it interesting how Edwards wasn't ever seen as a serious contender. I mean, he's so passionate about the influence of corporate lobbyists on government. I would have thought the left would embrace him. Is it really just a case of media portrayal, or is there something about him that just doesn't click with voters, like lack of charisma or something superficial like that?
John Edwards doesn't really get good media attention, the actual party leadership doesn't care for any one serious about stopping corporate lobbying influence gaining power in the party, and most voters just don't care about the actual issues, but just want to take sides.

The same is things hold true for the Republican party.
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Old 2008-02-15, 04:39   Link #202
Aya Reiko
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I had strong hopes for Edwards but the mega-corp media considered him their enemy and he got hardly any airplay.
Bullshit.

He got plenty of air time, especially in Iowa. He bet everything on Iowa, and he was good as dead when he didn't win the Iowa caucus because he didn't remotely have the infrastructure to compete with Hillary and Obama after Iowa. Plus his campaign manager was Joe Trippi, the same guy who ran Dean's campaign in '04 and used the exact same playbook; Rely heavily on grassroots and internet while mostly ignoring the mainstream, thinking the former will spill over onto the latter. Didn't work then, didn't work now.

And Bullshit on his message too.

Compare his Senate record to what he was saying on the campaign trail. Those two things were almost complete opposites of one another. Add the $400 haircut, the spacious mansion, and the Fortress hedge fund he worked for to the mix...
The guy was phonier than a $20 Rolex.
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Old 2008-02-15, 12:00   Link #203
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aya Reiko View Post
Bullshit.

...

And Bullshit on his message too.

...
The guy was phonier than a $20 Rolex.
Thank you for your profane and unhelpful attempt to shutdown discussion.
By your definitions, Clinton and Obama and McCain are also disqualified. Wheee.

Please try to be a bit more civil if you want to disagree with someone because I now have zero interest in discussing your talking point *assertions* with you.
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Last edited by Vexx; 2008-02-15 at 15:29.
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Old 2008-02-15, 12:46   Link #204
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Also, watch the language.


Anyways, I see that there's been no new stuff about Ron Paul recently. Has he dropped out? Stupid question. I know...
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Old 2008-02-15, 19:49   Link #205
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Originally Posted by JustInn14 View Post
Also, watch the language.


Anyways, I see that there's been no new stuff about Ron Paul recently. Has he dropped out? Stupid question. I know...
Last I heard he didn't officially drop out, but he did mention that he was going to focus more heavily on ensuring that he doesn't lose his current government seat. It sounds like he's running two campaigns at once, and I think he realizes that the presidency would be a big stretch. As he worded it, he's focusing on keeping his current position so that the message of he and his supporters can still be heard in the government.
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Old 2008-02-15, 22:26   Link #206
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I had strong hopes for Edwards but the mega-corp media considered him their enemy and he got hardly any airplay.
I remember every single one of his speeches on the election days getting aired. I don't know how they treated him at the debate or similar though.

And the real problem with Edwards is that all of his speeches were basically the same recycled speech with different names and occupations. It was always about "the war between the rich and the poor" to the point that some people felt like taking a shot every time he alluded to "two americas".
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Old 2008-02-19, 21:37   Link #207
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Tonight is the Wisconsin, Hawaii (Dems), and Washington (Rep) Primaries. Right now, Obama and McCain won the Wisconsin Primary and Hawaii and Wash is coming up later on.
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Old 2008-02-19, 22:34   Link #208
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Sorry if someone has already stated this but I have a great pain with what's going on in this election.

It's the whole bandwagon that we call Obama. Everyday I see people say "I hate Hilarly Clinton, I'm voting for Obama." Then I ask them if they even know what Obama and Hilary stands for, then they're left speechless. Seriously wtf? I can understand disliking someone's policies if you know about them, but outright voting for someone because he speaks well and is a young guy is total crap. I'm not this extreme, but I would almost consider rooting for Mccain if Obama wins the preliminaries. I think the stupidest comment I see said is that Hilarly is way too left when Obama is even more left....

Now not trying to be racist or anything, but why the hell are like 90%+ of blacks voting for freaking Obama? Is this not voter bias because of race? A prime example of this is Oprah. She says she's not going to vote for Hilarly just because she's a woman, but uh.. is she not voting for Obama just because he's black? People could argue that the votes are just as skewed with woman voting for Hilarly, but if you look at stats, this is certainly not the case. I did expect women to do this, but apparently they're not being as short-sighted as other fellow Americans.

The way its been looking lately, Obama is going to win the Presidency out of reasons that are totally unpolitical.

Is it too much to ask for people to learn about who they are voting for ?
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Old 2008-02-19, 22:46   Link #209
Vexx
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Obama and Hillary have nearly identical policy papers -- so you've got a point in that respect. Obama simply has attributes that seem to inspire people and he's young. Clinton may have more practical skills but she has two problems: her camp is known for over-controlling the message (shades of Bush2) and to the young she may be yesterday's news.
Neither politician is "left" (unless you're viewing them from somewhere to the right of fascism).

90% of blacks are not necessarily voting for Obama (where's that statistic from?).
I don't recall any quote of Oprah being anti-Clinton because she's female, cite please.

My opinion is that Obama is simply better at generating energy because his speaking style has that "revival oratory" style. Both candidates are highly qualified. They're both centrist. I'd vote for either.

The best example I can think of happened before most people on this forum were born: the Kennedy and Nixon debates of 1960. On paper, it wasn't that dissimilar a choice ... but when they were on camera together ... Kennedy's oratory style just slam-dunked Nixon.

Imagine Clinton vs McCain and now imagine Obama vs McCain..... to a mild extent that is Clinton's problem vs Obama --- that young energy factor. Yes, totally garbage reasons but real.

Now if you want to complain about the stupidity of the general voting public.. .well be my guest. It is appalling to listen to many people's rationale (or irrationale) about their voting choices.
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Old 2008-02-19, 23:09   Link #210
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
It's the whole bandwagon that we call Obama. Everyday I see people say "I hate Hilarly Clinton, I'm voting for Obama." Then I ask them if they even know what Obama and Hilary stands for, then they're left speechless. Seriously wtf?
It isn't the entire bandwagon of Obama that is like this. This is about maybe 10-20% of his support at the most from the exit polls. However, as you said he's a very good speaker and the promise of change resonates within the democratic party as you could see back in the 2006 congressional elections. At least 7 in 10 americans are unhappy with the current government according to polling.
Quote:
I can understand disliking someone's policies if you know about them, but outright voting for someone because he speaks well and is a young guy is total crap. I'm not this extreme, but I would almost consider rooting for Mccain if Obama wins the preliminaries. I think the stupidest comment I see said is that Hilarly is way too left when Obama is even more left....
Speaking well will always get you very far in politics. Part of the reason Bill Clinton got elected is his speaking ability. This is also one of the things that really hurt Al Gore when he ran. A politician who cannot speak and has meh policies will do far worse than one who can speak and has meh policies. Hillary is nowhere as good as a speaker as Bill is, but she is still worse than Obama and better than Al Gore. Thus her nearly identical policies get lost.

Quote:
Now not trying to be racist or anything, but why the hell are like 90%+ of blacks voting for freaking Obama? Is this not voter bias because of race? <snip> People could argue that the votes are just as skewed with woman voting for Hilarly, but if you look at stats, this is certainly not the case. I did expect women to do this, but apparently they're not being as short-sighted as other fellow Americans.
Regarding Obama, you have nailed it. As hard as the press goes to deny it, they are splitting 9/1 because of race. However, if you compare the numbers to the other groups, you see that it isn't that many voters who are likely deciding on race. Yet again, it is another 10-20% or so of Obama's total supporters at most. Obama also pulls in a lot of young and new voters though which makes things harder to actually measure since they completely change the dynamics.
It is the same with Clinton with both Caucasian women and Latinos though. If you look at the women split in the early elections, it clearly favored Clinton heavily. While it wasn't 9/1, it was still 2:1. It was even more hilarious that Latino's cried racism when her campaign manager was fired and claimed they were being used (and just happened to forget that Clinton is losing so someone wasn't doing their job well). We'll see if this actually changes anything in Texas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
90% of blacks are not necessarily voting for Obama (where's that statistic from?).
Nearly every exit poll so far in areas with large black populations (40% or more of voters) has shown an anywhere from 7:3 to 9:1 Obama to Clinton split for how the blacks voted.
Sources: SC (8:2), AL (8+:2-), LA (8+:2-). NBC said 9:1 for one of the recent races too.

Last edited by bayoab; 2008-02-19 at 23:23.
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Old 2008-02-19, 23:19   Link #211
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The best example I can think of happened before most people on this forum were born: the Kennedy and Nixon debates of 1960. On paper, it wasn't that dissimilar a choice ... but when they were on camera together ... Kennedy's oratory style just slam-dunked Nixon.
And we got ourselves one of the most influential Presidents of the Post-War era from the shallowest reason ever. Despite his early setbacks, JFK was shaping himself up to be one of the more competent Presidents when he was shot down in good ol' Texas.

It's a game of [communist!] roulette we play. Still, it's better than the game of genetics from the inbred royal bunch.

Besides, the structure of the Federal Government and the nature of the Office of the President is such that, hard as it is to admit, "shallow" traits like charisma and PR l33t sk1llz actually means a lot.

After all, we're not in a command economy. If the President isn't particularly good at economics, but he or she managed to translate the gibberish his or her advisors put out into something inspiring for the business community, then he or she is doing a great job.

Hence, Obama is awesome. I'll probably cry myself to death later for liking the wrong guy, but for now let's just ride this flow of "change." Feelings change the world, man. Yeah. This is the post-modern era. The concrete world has long ceased to matter.

*smokes a pipe, brushes the long hippie hair he never had, and starts reading Meher Baba*
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Old 2008-02-19, 23:59   Link #212
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I don't recall any quote of Oprah being anti-Clinton because she's female, cite please.
She never said she was anti-Clinton. I can't find the exact quote of what I just stated, I'll try and find it though. If you look at any you tube videos right now on her, she is saying that she finds no faults with Hilary, but just likes Obama. This crazy old hag is driving me insane. Change, CHANGE, CHAAAANGE!!! What change does Obama want goddamnit? He fails to take any real stand points on many issues, he aligns himself with the poor black community when he was raised by his white mother and was pretty wealthy, and he has the support of some racist talk-show celebrity that happens to be quite influential. The news is also guilty of bias and I am finally happy that action is being taken against them.

All I know is that Hilary is the more well known candidate. We know what to expect, we are not getting some mystery box. Obama just spells American ignorance in my eyes, I cannot see myself ever supporting this man.

I'm going to stop my rant here, politics makes me surge with emotion...
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Old 2008-02-20, 00:56   Link #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
She never said she was anti-Clinton. I can't find the exact quote of what I just stated, I'll try and find it though. If you look at any you tube videos right now on her, she is saying that she finds no faults with Hilary, but just likes Obama. This crazy old hag is driving me insane. Change, CHANGE, CHAAAANGE!!! What change does Obama want goddamnit? He fails to take any real stand points on many issues, he aligns himself with the poor black community when he was raised by his white mother and was pretty wealthy, and he has the support of some racist talk-show celebrity that happens to be quite influential. The news is also guilty of bias and I am finally happy that action is being taken against them.

All I know is that Hilary is the more well known candidate. We know what to expect, we are not getting some mystery box. Obama just spells American ignorance in my eyes, I cannot see myself ever supporting this man.

I'm going to stop my rant here, politics makes me surge with emotion...
Well, First of all, There is a alot of problems that we have in U.S.(economy, War, Unemployment, Jobs is going overseas, Health Care and so much more) We are in a trillion dollar debt as of right now and our economy is about to go to recession(sp?) (They are going to send out 600.00 - 1800.00 to every tax player to send). We are fight in a war that isnt helping anybody except couple of counties and accomplish nothing so far (Remember what Pres. Bush saying that "We are winning the war") and Health Care is so high right now that the elder people doesnt even have enough money to buy the proper treatment they need. If you can understand that, then we need to change the way we do business.

When companies is going overseas to get workers and pay them lesser then people that works in the States and those people become poor and homeless because that job is getting done by somebody else that isnt in America and companies isnt change that (btw, Obama isnt getting support from those companies either), We need to change to bring those companies back on US Soil, so people can work again and make the economy good again.

I know that you may be tried of hearing about change, but it has to happen or we are going to be in worst position down the line. For me, I went with experience before and you see what happening. I want atleast to give Obama a chance that he can bring a change within US and within ourselves. To each its own, I say. I want to have a better future for myself and maybe my kids one day and I think I will end this with one of my favorite quotes. "To build a strong community, organization and nation, you must build within and change the old ways to begin anew way."
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Old 2008-02-20, 01:26   Link #214
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The thing that concerns me when people chant "Change!" is that "Change!" also got Germany into a bit of a pickle when they were having many of the same problems in the 1930s.

Always ask *exactly WHAT change do you have in mind?* when a politician orates on that line.

For many reasons (not the least of which has been pointed out is the general knowledge level of the voting public), we need to pay a lot of attention AFTER the election to make sure it isn't "In Comes the NEW Boss, Same As the Old Boss....".

If the Dems take both houses and the prez..... the incentive to roll back the "imperial presidency", make serious voting and campaign finance reforms, fix the media consolidation crisis, actually substantively do something about the healthcare system dysfunctionality --- may all vanish in a purple haze, eh? Just remember to keep the burning public spotlight trained on them.
The Republicans had their chance and simply pissed it away by looting the Treasury for their buddies and committing some of the most egregious ethical disasters since the 1800s so they are completely off my list for the year.
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Old 2008-02-20, 02:21   Link #215
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None of the politicians running in the U.S election are really left, just not so far right as the others. Come to Canada and partake of the NDP and Bloc Quebecois and you will come to truly understand what left really is. As for the Nixon flop-sweat disaster, I believe he was recovering from the flu or something and was in no real condition to appear on TV, while Kennedy was in good health and just came back from a condition perfectly refreshed. That was the decider though and one of the most interesting upsets in U.S political history.
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Old 2008-02-20, 04:17   Link #216
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The thing that concerns me when people chant "Change!" is that "Change!" also got Germany into a bit of a pickle when they were having many of the same problems in the 1930s.
What are you implying with that?

Are you seriously trying to trace such a parallel or is this the worst straw man argument in this thread?

Thank you for your profane and unhelpful attempt to shutdown discussion.
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Old 2008-02-20, 05:00   Link #217
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I don't trust Obama. How can a political outsider claim to be able to change Washington? You don't change Washington; Washington changes you. The idea that someone without connections can persuade Congress to pass controversial bills seems incredibly naive to me.

But Hillary Clinton suffers from her own problems of credibility as well, so I can understand why voters would distrust her. It irks me however to see that Americans think they should leave Iraq as soon as possible. That strikes me as being very irresponsible. The US created the current problems in Iraq. You own the problem, and you can't leave until stability is restored.

Obama is not giving himself any leeway on this issue, by claiming support for withdrawing American troops. In my opinion, voters who support him for this reason are going to be in for early disappointment.

As for other issues of US domestic policies, especially your healthcare system, I can't really comment, since I have no vested interests in those issues. As for the economy, I'm not sure what US presidents can actually do to affect the economy. In fact, it's probably best they don't interefere at all. But that doesn't stop them from taking credit when the economy is doing well.
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Old 2008-02-20, 05:48   Link #218
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As for the economy, I'm not sure what US presidents can actually do to affect the economy.
For starters they could pull out of Iraq.
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Old 2008-02-20, 06:18   Link #219
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
The way its been looking lately, Obama is going to win the Presidency out of reasons that are totally unpolitical.
Political elections tend to be anything but political. Hype and marketing create images of things that don't exist. Does anyone actually expect Obama to change the world? No. He's just telling people what they want to hear, and they're eating it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Loniat View Post
What are you implying with that?

Are you seriously trying to trace such a parallel or is this the worst straw man argument in this thread?

Thank you for your profane and unhelpful attempt to shutdown discussion.
Nice attempt at turning the argument back on Vexx. His point is that Germany was in a similar situation, where the society wanted to blame everyone but themselves. Along comes a charismatic man, a strong speaker, who promises to make everything better and promises sweeping change.

Sometimes the change you want isn't the change you get.

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Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf View Post
It irks me however to see that Americans think they should leave Iraq as soon as possible. That strikes me as being very irresponsible. The US created the current problems in Iraq. You own the problem, and you can't leave until stability is restored.
I agree with you. Keep in mind that not *all* Americans think that, but the growing sentiment is we shouldn't have been there in the first place. Which saddens me because people who were saying that years ago were branded as traitors and unpatriotic. Pulling out of Iraq now would mean a power vacuum the likes we haven't seen in a long time. It would destabilize the region and possibly erupt a massive war.

I'd rather we gave it our all, but agendas get in the way of doing what should have been done in the first place. Not a unique problem, but it's a problem America has now.
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Old 2008-02-20, 08:17   Link #220
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Nice attempt at turning the argument back on Vexx. His point is that Germany was in a similar situation, where the society wanted to blame everyone but themselves. Along comes a charismatic man, a strong speaker, who promises to make everything better and promises sweeping change.
Care to elaborate on how pre nazi Germany is comparable to today's USA?

Elections and politics will always have charismatic and well spoken politicians. Don't take the overused nazi card to set up arguments like this. It is amazing that people still use this kind of argumentation just to try to make their point seem more credible.
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