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Old 2008-02-17, 15:53   Link #1
pichu
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What is Typesetting?

I have been questioning myself what is my role in fansubbing. Ever since I got into anime drawing in 2001, I strayed into fansubbing business. Now, I'm just a good-for-nothing typesetter for fansubs with about four years of typesetting experience. The real question is "What is typesetting?"

After talking to several leechers and fellow fansubbers, sadly they don't fit into what my definition of typesetting is. Here are the questions and answers I have in mind.

1. Is styling (subs/karaoke/notes) typesetting?
no

2. Is making fancy karaoke effects typesetting?
no

3. Is designing your logo or banner typesetting?
no

4. Is designing your group logo to match with the actual logo effects typesetting?
maybe.

Then what really is typesetting, since styling != typesetting, logo != typesetting, karaoke != typesetting? Read here for a more mathematical proof of the statement using the definitions given in the dictionary.

To me, an ideal typesetting is to blend in the text into the video as much as possible, making it undifferentiated from the actual source. In fansubbing, this applies more to making signs than anything else (credits [credits have its beauty too], logos, karaoke, and notes [just as a note: notes are considered as styling]).

Note: signs in fansubbing means that the new text is typesetted on the actual object with the original text.

This is my definition. Based on that definition, more questions on making "signs" have arrived in my mind. And I have answers for them, but they're my mere opinions. So I just want to listen out what other people think.

0. What is the definition of typesetting?
Spoiler for pichu's thought:


1. What is the difference between styling and typesetting, since I intend to separate them out?
Spoiler for pichu's thought:


2. Then what are the difference between 'good' typesetting and 'bad' typesetting?
Spoiler for pichu's thought:


3. What will I do if there are not enough room to do an ideal typesetting (based on my definition)? In doing so, will I allow myself to ruin the video itself, or is this what I call as a good typesetting?
Spoiler for pichu's thought:


4. Will putting notes (aka styling, not typesetting) be better than typesetting actual signs when I am required to add stuff to the drawings?
Spoiler for pichu's thought:


5. Since I am good with Photoshop to blend objects in pictures, should I allow myself to recreate what are already on the screen at my own skills?
Spoiler for pichu's thought:


6. What are real typesetters? Differentiate them between stylers who claimed to be typesetters and typesetters who can do signs, credits, and logos.

Spoiler for pichu's thought:


Examples of the situations include:

7. If the signs contain particles or multiple shines, should I simulate them too, thereby adding stuff what perceives on the video?
Spoiler for pichu's thought:


8. What should I do to signs that don't have the room for my new typesetings? Should I make 'extensions?' Should I shrink the text? Will it be better to replace the entire original text to my new text? Or, should I do some effects (i.e. basic fading) on the actual text to yield to new typesetting in the middle?
Spoiler for pichu's thought:


9. If the text in the sign are too crowded and that they fill up the entire screen, should I allow myself to even modify the original text to allow room for the new text, or should I replace the original text with the new text? (same as Q8)
Spoiler for pichu's thought:


---

Anyways, these are the questions I have in mind. I don't want to lead anyone in the "bad" direction, which I am fond of, before I am fully 'retired.'

Also as a note, my tools of trade are Photoshop and After-Effects for typesetting. I started out with .ass typesetting.

-pichu.
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Last edited by pichu; 2008-02-19 at 00:43. Reason: adding my answers in spoiler tags.
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Old 2008-02-17, 16:06   Link #2
endy
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pichu are you making these threads for yourself and your 'image' or for the benefit of wannabe typesetters?
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Old 2008-02-17, 16:12   Link #3
dj_tjerk
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Having had a discussion recently, I'm asking myself now about what's useful/prettier typesetting.

- extensions and the like, leaving the original japanese
- removing japanese, putting only english there

I'm a bit more on the side for removing japanese, as it seems to me it sometimes gets way too crowded on the screen, and stuff like vertical text just doesnt read well.

On the other side, when replacing all japanese shop signs with english ones, it's like you're moving the whole scene to america (for instance).

Until now i've been extending and leaving the japanese there, but i doubt any of the leechers will mind when i just replace it with english. Fellow fansubbers will care though (leading to flaming hot discussions here on asuki), so i wonder what the response will be when i decide to just replace the japanese with english

Also in my book goes:
Styling = styling subtitles/notes and the like
Typesetting = Sign(ing?); Logo's require the same skills most of the time
Karaoke something wholly different
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Old 2008-02-17, 16:15   Link #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dj_tjerk View Post
- removing japanese, putting only english there
Sometimes, leaving japanese sign half of time, and replacing it the remaining time with English text, works niceely.
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Old 2008-02-17, 16:20   Link #5
pichu
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@endy: I treat everyone the same. Didn't we all start out with 'wannabe?' Perhaps, people can discuss what are the true meanings of typesetting.

@dj_tjerk: as for extensions, since you're treating yourself at the same level as the artist by recreating the object in the anime, why not just credit yourself as the artist in the opening/ending credits? ;o

@sangofe: that was asked in Q8 (effects can be crossfading, morphing works well too), but my objection to that is that it will never look blended in time.

---

It bugs my mind that after such hard work in typesetting, they got overlooked or turned down by other people.
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Old 2008-02-17, 16:29   Link #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pichus View Post

It bugs my mind that after such hard work in typesetting, they got overlooked or turned down by other people.
That is not true, you get a lot of elitism when it comes to typesetting, ts'ers are proud of their work and often sneer at decent typesets for not being excellent.
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Old 2008-02-17, 16:38   Link #7
dj_tjerk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pichus View Post
@dj_tjerk: as for extensions, since you're treating yourself at the same level as the artist by recreating the object in the anime, why not just credit yourself as the artist in the opening/ending credits? ;o
That's what credits are for right? :P Then i don't see any more reason to credit myself for anything more than typesetting. It's not like i'm creative enough to come up with something, it's just that removing japanese, replacing it with english and giving it the same kind of look is much easier than making it look exactly the same (people tend to see difference quite easily).

Anyway, i don't really buy anime, but i remember the R1 FMA logo being totally different from the original logo in the anime. Also (not blaming anyone), a.f.k. seems to remove the japanese sometimes too, putting just english in place (SZS ep1, never watched beyond that ), and i have to say it doesn't look half bad.. At least half the screen is not filled with gibberish/random characters (that's what they look like to me, 'noise')

Quote:
Originally Posted by endy View Post
That is not true, you get a lot of elitism when it comes to typesetting, ts'ers are proud of their work and often sneer at decent typesets for not being excellent.
I remember me sneer at pichu (thinking he was just a wannabe afx-karaoker) about a year ago (not knowing he had waaaaaay more experience than i have >_>, he even taught me basic typesetting after that xD). So be careful who you sneer at :P (general statement)

Also.. typesetters are proud of their work, and they should be (as afaik, i costs the most time out of every fansubbing 'job'). However, most of the time there's a limit to how much time/effort a person can put in, and then, as a typesetter, you have to make compromises. If every signs were to be made perfect, one would still be working on one's first episode. Also, for one person, animating particles is hell, when for the other, drawing in photoshop is hell. Noone's perfect. Plus, signs look easier when you don't have to do it (meaning, you don't work in that particular group working on that particular show), and often people don't realise how much time is put into getting a sign 'decent', or getting the other signs 'perfect'.

I don't know what point i was trying to make; i guess.. i don't really have one :P

Last edited by dj_tjerk; 2008-02-17 at 16:49.
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Old 2008-02-17, 16:58   Link #8
pichu
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@endy: Unfortunately, most people I talked to don't think that way. Then it comes into my mind, why spending so much time in typesetting. The reason is that I enjoy it and I like modifying the original animations; it's a hobby here and then.

In fansubbing, unfortunately, the jobs come down to the following priority (1 being the highest):

1. Translation
2. Editing
3. Timing/Encoding
4. Styling / Karaoke
5. Logo and Typesetting

---> Unless it's really bad... Like garbage encodes or broken Engrish. But, let's say - so-so encodes as oppose to good encodes, or okay English as oppose to fluent English.

As one factors in, typesetting is minor in the fansubbing field. Most people I know put styling more important than signs (but if it's softsub, styling doesn't count - leechers don't really care about overriding fonts and colors). So this depresses me more. I think somehow we should have a poll like this, so that I can get a better picture of what others feel.

@dj_tjerk... Let's pick an example... say you're a typesetter for an episode that fills up about half of the time with pure signs... And, you need to modify pictures almost half of the time in order to have the signs typesetted. Then the question arrives in my mind: shouldn't you also be credited yourself as the artist instead, simply because you are recreating half of those scenes? lol

As for logo designing and karaoke designing, sometimes one can say they're typesetting too... like putting the karaoke on a book that's on the ending theme, or having the logo to simulate exactly the same as the original logo. But really, typesetting is just to define some formats to some text. Yet, I see it otherwise.
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Last edited by pichu; 2008-02-17 at 17:21.
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Old 2008-02-17, 17:03   Link #9
ReAn
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Basically if you break the word down, Typesetting (or Type-setting) would be placement of text (or 'Type').

This typically in practice is referring to Signs / Various baloons & popups, however over the years I've seen many sub-catagories come out of typesetting to encompass jobs that are vaguely bouncing around the borders of what would be considdered "Typesetting"

Karaoke Typesetting - Not really 'Typesetting' I guess since most of Karaoke is TIMING and Styling, but it does involve placement components, including the technical elements.

Credits Typesetting - I'd say sure, it's usually placing the credits in appropriate locations (and styling) so that it blends in with the actual credits.

Title / Logo Typesetting - Can be, it's not really about placement though, it's more about matching. Since this is what I usually spend most my subbing time doing, I've stopped referring of myself as a typeset, and just an AFX Guy.

Basically when you break it down though, Typesetting has it's science and artistic elements, but I'll agree with you that Styling the text is not typesetting, more artistic direction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pichus View Post
In fansubbing, unfortunately, the jobs come down to the following priority (1 being the highest):

1. Translation
2. Editing
3. Encoding
4. Styling
5. Karaoke, Logo, and Typesetting
You forgot Timing, it's probably #2 on that list.
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Old 2008-02-17, 17:32   Link #10
pichu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReAn View Post
Basically if you break the word down, Typesetting (or Type-setting) would be placement of text (or 'Type').
Yes ... that will be the original definition... Setting the text.. Placement, formats (font, colors, blurs, borders, etc), etc of the text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReAn View Post
Karaoke Typesetting - Not really 'Typesetting' I guess since most of Karaoke is TIMING and Styling, but it does involve placement components, including the technical elements.
Actually, only a few karaoke are actual typesets. Those are quite tricky. Sometimes, in the scenes, there are videos of actual book, and one may want to do karoke on top of that book with the same effects as what's given on the book. This is a rare occasion. As a side note, I just did a karaoke typesetting in Bamboo Blade 18, made in .ass (since I don't feel like making it in AFX). The reason I called that karaoke typesetting was that I was matching the romaji karaoke to the timing and styling of the original Kanji/Japanese karaoke (same font, style, colors, and timing). It was fun doing so. heh

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReAn View Post
Credits Typesetting - I'd say sure, it's usually placing the credits in appropriate locations (and styling) so that it blends in with the actual credits.
Yes, all credits have their own effects. The common effects are fading. The less common ones are directional blurs, and even some are particles blended or explosions or even shines/glows. The goal is to simulate those effects too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReAn View Post
Title / Logo Typesetting - Can be, it's not really about placement though, it's more about matching. Since this is what I usually spend most my subbing time doing, I've stopped referring of myself as a typeset, and just an AFX Guy.
Some of the signs I leaned to are the same stuff needed to be done as in logos. Do we intend to differentiate them too? Some signs are more difficult than just logos... i.e. use of After-Effects or Premiere or whatever video effects software you want to use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReAn View Post
Basically when you break it down though, Typesetting has it's science and artistic elements, but I'll agree with you that Styling the text is not typesetting, more artistic direction.
True... sometimes you need to be artistic to do with some of the signs. Most of the time, you just have to match with the original scenes, so no artistic is really necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReAn View Post
You forgot Timing, it's probably #2 on that list.
Glad you point that out ;p Yes, most people probably don't care timing that much, unless it's extremely badly timed. So, I think it should be the same level as encoding, right below editing and translation.
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Last edited by pichu; 2008-02-17 at 17:46.
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Old 2008-02-17, 17:45   Link #11
ReAn
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Ok pichus, now im confused, what exactly is the point you're trying to convey? Are you trying to put 'typesetting' on some kind of pedistal apart from other variants? Or are you just trying to explain the difference to everyone? The context for your posts are seeming to lose thier clarity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pichus View Post
Yes, all credits have their own effects. The common effects are fading. The less common ones are directional blurs, and even some are particles blended or explosions or even shines/glows. The goal is to simulate those effects too.
Once again I am confused, are you explaining to me, or in general?

Quote:
Originally Posted by pichus View Post
Some of the signs I leaned to are the same stuff needed to be done as in logos. Do we intend to differentiate them too? Some signs are more difficult than just logos... i.e. use of After-Effects or Premiere or whatever video effects software you want to use.
Signs are signs, they vary in difficulty and style. Some groups prefer to make thier signs look as close as possible, some like to make thier signs look obvious enough to catch the eye of the viewer, some groups dont really put a thought into it, and some just dont do signs at all. Why would we differentiate signs from typesetting? Based on the policy of the group the level of difficulty & aspects involved vary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pichus View Post
True... sometimes you need to be artistic to do with some of the signs. Most of the time, you just have to match with the original scenes, so no artistic is really necessary.
But some require extreme artistic talent, or at least skill with photoshop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pichus View Post
Glad you point that out ;p Yes, most people probably don't care timing that much, unless it's extremely badly timed. So, I think it should be the same level as encoding, right below editing and translation.
Well it's pretty danm important to HAVE, it dosent have to be perfect, but it's pretty hard to have a fansub without a timer.

=================== EDIT ====================


Quote:
Originally Posted by pichus View Post
It bugs my mind that after such hard work in typesetting, they got overlooked or turned down by other people.
In light of this added quote, I feel your pain, when I worked with Kiss-Sub I would often get asked to do typeset work only to have it thrown out in favour over a 1 hour earlier release or something else silly. If you're worried that no fans seem to appreciate it, it's my experience that most fans notice Video & Sound quality first, sometimes they dont even notice horrible translation &/ editing. If you're looking for an annonymous fanbase to rise up and praise your work, you're in the wrong line of work. Leechers don't care, fans thank arbitrarily, fansubbers praise.
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Old 2008-02-17, 18:52   Link #12
pichu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ReAn View Post
Ok pichus, now im confused, what exactly is the point you're trying to convey? Are you trying to put 'typesetting' on some kind of pedistal apart from other variants? Or are you just trying to explain the difference to everyone? The context for your posts are seeming to lose thier clarity.
I'm not sure what's so confusing about my posts... As I said before, people think 'typesetting' context differently in fansubbing, and I was wondering what others aspects have thought about. It's neither in what you perceived. And no, typesetting isn't just mere placements and formats. In the context I'm using, typesetting involves motion picture elements too as to making your placements/formats of text blended in. This is really difficult to portray without working examples.

>>> Once again I am confused, are you explaining to me, or in general? <<<

That reply is in general. I don't doubt your experiences... But having placements and formats isn't enough in credits and many elements, as depicted in your definition of typesetting. Hence, it needs to be amended in fansubbing definitions, I believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReAn View Post
Signs are signs, they vary in difficulty and style. Some groups prefer to make thier signs look as close as possible, some like to make thier signs look obvious enough to catch the eye of the viewer, some groups dont really put a thought into it, and some just dont do signs at all. Why would we differentiate signs from typesetting? Based on the policy of the group the level of difficulty & aspects involved vary.

But some require extreme artistic talent, or at least skill with photoshop.

Well it's pretty danm important to HAVE, it dosent have to be perfect, but it's pretty hard to have a fansub without a timer.
Let's pick an example... How difficult is to draw a plate on a static screen. Think, how much more difficult is to make it zooming? If you extend it to making signs, make the signs portion bigger - and the difficulty it involves to make it blended i As for me, I've leaned to making them obvious (bigger text using extensions) and blended in (extensions, recreating the actual signs). It's very hard to explain this without showing you actual examples. Not "artistic"... you mean "technical." (e.g., good skill with photoshop)

And, all typesetters [if not most experienced ones] can time... which is why I forgot timers (timings).

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReAn View Post
In light of this added quote, I feel your pain, when I worked with Kiss-Sub I would often get asked to do typeset work only to have it thrown out in favour over a 1 hour earlier release or something else silly. If you're worried that no fans seem to appreciate it, it's my experience that most fans notice Video & Sound quality first, sometimes they dont even notice horrible translation &/ editing. If you're looking for an annonymous fanbase to rise up and praise your work, you're in the wrong line of work. Leechers don't care, fans thank arbitrarily, fansubbers praise.
Encoding quality (both visual and audio qualities) depends mostly in the raw source. Audio quality 99% depends in the raw source, and 1% is for stupidity (bitrate too low and leechers being too picky). Oh well, I guess I'm just doing it for fun. :/
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Old 2008-02-17, 21:10   Link #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pichus View Post
Encoding quality (both visual and audio qualities) depends mostly in the raw source. Audio quality 99% depends in the raw source, and 1% is for stupidity (bitrate too low and leechers being too picky). Oh well, I guess I'm just doing it for fun. :/
I disagree here. There's some encoder that think it's good to use 92348393 filters in their encodes when the source is bad (thus making it even worse). Or using messed up settings... Or wasting bitrate. Or something else.

As for timing, as long as the text doesn't disappear (about) 1 frame after scene change (or appear 1 frame before), it's not really a problem for me. (applies to karaoke too if the kara FX-er chooses not to use any fading effect)
(and yes, I'm pointing the latter part esp for certain group that has great kara fx but missed the timing to the point it bothers me)

- and -

I'd say styling is part of typesetting (since at least it involves text placement in video)

Quote:
Leechers don't care, fans thank arbitrarily, fansubbers praise.
and mostly only people with same position can praise it <correctly> (ie encoder praising another encoder, typesetter praising another typesetter, etc)
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Old 2008-02-17, 22:29   Link #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edogawaconan View Post
I disagree here. There's some encoder that think it's good to use 92348393 filters in their encodes when the source is bad (thus making it even worse). Or using messed up settings... Or wasting bitrate. Or something else.
Do encoders even use filters in audio? I know at least I've never done so. And the majority of the encodes quality comes from the raw source quality regardless of your filters. Like it looks horrible when upscaling from an SD to HD (note: the infamous MHD) with filters (i.e. warpsharp, etc). And another question arises to me as to typesetting. In using filters, you're altering the video too, so would it be bad in doing so - even more so than my standards of typesetting?

Quote:
Originally Posted by edogawaconan View Post
As for timing, as long as the text doesn't disappear (about) 1 frame after scene change (or appear 1 frame before), it's not really a problem for me. (applies to karaoke too if the kara FX-er chooses not to use any fading effect)
(and yes, I'm pointing the latter part esp for certain group that has great kara fx but missed the timing to the point it bothers me)
As for timing, I know how they work... Scene-timing and subs linking. But they are more as an art, like when not to bleed and when to link them - purely subjective. The important part is that the subs get timed to the audio.
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Old 2008-02-17, 22:40   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pichus View Post
Do encoders even use filters in audio? I know at least I've never done so. And the majority of the encodes quality comes from the raw source quality regardless of your filters. Like it looks horrible when upscaling from an SD to HD (note: the infamous MHD) with filters (i.e. warpsharp, etc). And another question arises to me as to typesetting. In using filters, you're altering the video too, so would it be bad in doing so - even more so than my standards of typesetting?
yes it's bad. some people don't even realize this though and keep using bad source and thousands of filters

Quote:
Originally Posted by pichus View Post
As for timing, I know how they work... Scene-timing and subs linking. But they are more as an art, like when not to bleed and when to link them - purely subjective. The important part is that the subs get timed to the audio.
It can be distracting when done incorrectly.
btw, Math is art

and by your definition of typeset, it's kinda sounds like sign-duplicating (to me)

in the end, ignorance is bliss
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Old 2008-02-17, 22:53   Link #16
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Urgh. Talk about how you good you are at AFX all you want but the fact is that you're trying to redefine a word with a well-known meaning. Don't do that. A more conventional definition can be found here: http://aegisub.cellosoft.com/docs/Typesetting

Edit: after reading the post in its entirety, it seems more like some sort of style guide for sign typesetters. Okay, that's fine but I don't see why you have to try to redefine parts of the standard English vocabulary to do it. I also don't see why people are so eager to say that karaoke and/or logos aren't typesetting. It's presentation of textual material, how can it not be typesetting?

Edit2: apparently this turned into a typesetter circlejerking thread.
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01:04:41 < Plorkyeran> it was annoying to typeset so it should be annoying to read

Last edited by TheFluff; 2008-02-17 at 23:05.
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Old 2008-02-17, 23:26   Link #17
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So, I fail for thinking that fansubbed signs don't have to look indistinguishable.
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Old 2008-02-17, 23:34   Link #18
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@TheFluff: Perhaps, the right word for us isn't typesetting. And, I'm not here to redefine the word. I'm hoping to clarify it in a fansubbing job. An example is that "fansub" doesn't even exist in English vocabulary, until people coin it. The "typeset" word already exists, but I am here to clarify its use in fansub practice. As for the link you just pointed out, it definitely needs to be elaborated, as it is quite obvious to anyone. Simple, no? It doesn't require a rocket scientist to figure this situation out.

Quote:
Edit2: apparently this turned into a typesetter circlejerking thread.
I don't see what's your arrogant problem, as you didn't say anything useful at all, based on all of your opinions... Please note: the topic even suggests "Typesetting," so it is obviously a discussion zone for typesetters or people who are in the business. You're just being pessimistic, so quit it kiddo.

@edogawaconan: and by your definition of typeset, it's kinda sounds like sign-duplicating (to me) <-- it's more than just duplicating... Duplicating signs is extremely easy... The question is how many people will lean or lean towards the direction I'm at. I only knew a very few.

@Sylf: I'm in your situation by thinking that the text in the typesetted signs should never stand out in the video (i.e., indistinguishable, i think that's what you mean), but they should never be made unreadable either.
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Last edited by pichu; 2008-02-17 at 23:52.
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Old 2008-02-17, 23:52   Link #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pichus View Post
@TheFluff: Perhaps, the right word for us isn't typesetting. And, I'm not here to redefine the word. I'm hoping to clarify it in a fansubbing job. An example is that "fansub" doesn't even exist in English vocabulary, until people coin it. The "typeset" word already exists, but I am here to clarify its use in fansub practice. As for the link you just pointed out, it definitely needs to be elaborated, as it is quite obvious to anyone. Simple, no? It doesn't require a rocket scientist to figure this situation out.
um... I thought fansub is short for fan-subtitled?
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Old 2008-02-17, 23:56   Link #20
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fansub is a made-up word, coined from 'fan' and the prefix, 'subtitle.' Hence, I mentioned the 'coining,' like combining parts of the words.
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