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Old 2008-02-18, 09:03   Link #921
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Because you pulled a broad, all-incompasing statement of absolute fact (sideways) out of some orifice with no support whatsoever?
You're pretty selective in who you criticise for doing that. Is the fact that I can actually argue my opinions the reason why you felt compelled to single me out?

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Because SEED sucks. It has been accepted by nearly everyone who claims to be a Gundam fan, maybe except for a handful of insane fanatics like D-KLAC, that SEED is not a good series.
It was my first Gundam and I like it to this day. Maybe you didn't like it because it wasn't colorful enough?
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Old 2008-02-18, 09:04   Link #922
Bring d0wn tEh Sky
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maybe he doesnt like shows where main characters are mechas ?
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Old 2008-02-18, 09:05   Link #923
Dean_the_Young
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Seed was decent, if not my taste. It was Destiny that the director himself disowned.

And Gundam 00 is hardly "made of awesome and of win," though I'm enjoying it more than Destiny. It has a number of very serious concerns: slow and awkward characterization of what is supposed to be the main cast, extremely short battles (this being a trade-off for mostly high-quality fights), and a number of national/ethnic stereotypes. It also has the habbit of relying on people great distances apart to finish each other's sentences, and the good-guy/bad-guy inferals can be a bit blatant (which in itself is a good change from Destiny, which gave far too many mixed messages of good-vs-evil).

None of those, however, make it shit, and none of those were even cited by Wesley.
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Old 2008-02-18, 09:06   Link #924
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Bring d0wn tEh Sky View Post
maybe he doesnt like shows where main characters are mechas ?
Setsuna's "I am a Gundam" act is cutsie as hell. Too bad he's a killing machine that's currently in the process of destroying the world for no damn good reason.
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Old 2008-02-18, 09:10   Link #925
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Seed was decent, if not my taste. It was Destiny that the director himself disowned.

And Gundam 00 is hardly "made of awesome and of win," though I'm enjoying it more than Destiny. It has a number of very serious concerns: slow and awkward characterization of what is supposed to be the main cast, extremely short battles (this being a trade-off for mostly high-quality fights), and a number of national/ethnic stereotypes. It also has the habbit of relying on people great distances apart to finish each other's sentences, and the good-guy/bad-guy inferals can be a bit blatant (which in itself is a good change from Destiny, which gave far too many mixed messages of good-vs-evil).

None of those, however, make it shit, and none of those were even cited by Wesley.
No, no. I agree with those points, except the one where they don't make OO shit. OO is entirely faith-based at this point. You either believe there's going to be a damn good explanation or you don't.
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Old 2008-02-18, 09:16   Link #926
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
You're pretty selective in who you criticize for doing that. Is the fact that I can actually argue my opinions the reason why you felt compelled to single me out?
No, mainly because you've been annoying me. I've seen what you call debate skills, it's little more than the braniac sixth-grader who insists on pointing out every perceived factual error whether relevant or not, and who hasn't got the brains to realize how ignorant he is about how the world really works. Harping on every perceived difference to what you think the world should act like =/= debate skills, and outlasting your opponents with obstinate refusal to see their point =/= winning and convincing. Believe it or not, most people do have things they'd rather do than a quote war on a forum over some obscure anime that most people in the world have never heard of.

Do I think most people here are any better in their skills? Don't make me laugh. But having been like you about seven years ago, it annoys me to see someone act like they know everything when they don't even have a inkling as to what they don't know.

Don't think that I hate you: I don't. It's merely painful to see someone go through the exact same phase I was in over half a decade ago.

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It was my first Gundam and I like it to this day. Maybe you didn't like it because it wasn't colorful enough?
Anyone who complains about Seed not being colorful enough is color blind. Most people who complain about the Seed-verse colors complain about them being too bright: pink explosions, constant posing and acrobatics, and the whole nine-yards. Of course, this is also in part because Seed experimented with new computer animation technicques for coloring and such, which isn't for everyone. I personally much prefer the darker hand-drawn colors of Zeta to just about everything else, even if they do have weaker resolution.

Last edited by Dean_the_Young; 2008-02-18 at 09:31.
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Old 2008-02-18, 09:30   Link #927
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
No, no. I agree with those points, except the one where they don't make OO shit. OO is entirely faith-based at this point. You either believe there's going to be a damn good explanation or you don't.
This ignores, however, the many supporting parts of why someone could like 00:

-High-quality fights with a bare minimum of stock footage

-An excellent and varied supporting cast of antagonists who are actually more sympathetic than most of the main characters. Graham has more balls and charisma than any three Meisters, noble Sergei never wavers in ability or moral resolve, rogue Ali who lives and fights for himself, stoic Soma who we all keep waiting to learn some humanity. Even comic relief Patrick.

-A refreshingly new attempt to actually look at and work with global politics and power relations overall, rather than the half-extended generalizations of Seed and Destiny. ("Everyone in PLANT loves Lacus, instant POWER!" "the EA (AF) wants to kill coordinators," "PLANT is good when not trying to kill everyone," "No one cares what happens in Asia or Africa," "Orb is always neutral, even when it fights one side or another.") I don't even hold that against Seed-verse (much), because I don't watch Seed with expectations of a viewpoint being the leaders in power. Seeing it in 00 is a nice change, even if it could be done better here or there.

-Watching the fallacy of a group try to end war through war play itself out, especially when the group is such a collection of f'ed up individuals who are still working it out

-The director's mastery in driving the audience to feel one way about a person (say, Louise), only to spring an abrupt turn of events to give a character an entirely new deminsion (Setsuna killing his parents in the name of God? Louise amputated? Super-computer Veda actually being not only infalible, but a deadly weakness?) It has been almost as amusing watching the audience feel near uniformly about one character or another, and then have a complete switch; Louise went from useless b**** to everyone's character of the hour.

- Effective use of techniques such as foreshadowing and dramatic effects with music and images, while also not falling into the trap of simply revealing past histories in a single monolog. Setsuna's past was flashes here and there, Allelujah took his own episode a dozen eps in, Lockon is mostly out now, and we still have no f'n clue as to what the Incident was with Sumeragi, what exactly happened for Graham to be called on fratricide, what the hell Tieria even is, etc.
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Old 2008-02-18, 09:40   Link #928
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
No, mainly because you've been annoying me. I've seen what you call debate skills, it's little more than a braniac sixth-grader who insists on pointing out every perceived factual error whether relevant or not, and who hasn't got the brains to realize how ignorant he is about how the world really works. Harping on every perceived difference to what you think the world should act like =/= debate skills, and outlasting your opponents with obstinate refusal to see their point =/= winning and convincing. Believe it or not, most people do have things they'd rather do than a quote war on a forum over some obscure anime that most people in the world have never heard of.

Do I think most people here are any better in their skills? Don't make me laugh. But having been like you about seven years ago, it annoys me to see someone act like they know everything when they don't even have a inkling as to what they don't know.

Don't think that I hate you: I don't. It's merely painful to see someone go through the exact same phase I was in over half a decade ago.
I don't really think I'm being obstinate. I certainly don't believe in doggedly arguing for the sake of "winning". Realistically, agreeing to disagree is the best I can hope for, but I still enjoy writing out what I think. It's a creative exercise, nothing more.

You're the one that said "My opinion = Facts ". Obviously you don't think I'm worth arguing with so why even say that? Because I'm annoying you? I don't know what phase you went through, but maybe you've misunderstood me?

And if you're refering to the mst3k-style posts I type up as I watch an episode, that's not so much as arguing as venting. Another creative exercise.

I can appreciate how complicated the world is, but Gundam OO obviously does not.

Quote:
Anyone who complains about Seed not being colorful enough is color blind. Most people who complain about the Seed-verse colors complain about them being too bright: pink explosions, constant posing and acrobatics, and the whole nine-yards. Of course, this is also in part because Seed experimented with new computer animation technicques for coloring and such, which isn't for everyone. I personally much prefer the darker hand-drawn colors of Zeta to just about everything else, even if they do have weaker resolution.
I didn't really mean colorful as being literally colorful. More like the animation style and battle choregraphy. Gundam OO's got good choregraphy as far as Exia's concerned, even if it's portrayal of military tactics and grunts is generally poor.
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Old 2008-02-18, 09:49   Link #929
D-KLAC
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Originally Posted by Bring d0wn tEh Sky View Post
Seed was an EPIC FAIL. And I'm not even talking about it's sequel

Gundam 00 is made of awesome and of win.
I hope that the Seed Universe is behind us and buried forever. 'Hope that there will never be a trilogy. Bwerk no more freaking beam spam, no more people that believe HiMat system is the rainbow attack, no more Kiraaa & Lacuus are so cuute.
GS will not get buried by anyone cause GS will keep on going forever.

besides there are still those really loyal to GS era & also really GS was not about mecha because GS did this Gundam SEED incorporated elements from popular live-action television dramas. Instead of focusing on the robot action, the show focused more on the characters.

so it's main focus are it's characters.

& GSM will happen cause there are many ways to have a GSM.
__________________
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A KLAC IS JUST TOO COMMIT, HONOR, LOYALTY, PRIDE, ETC TO WORLD OF ANIME
WALKING THE PATH OF KLAC ON THE JOURNEY THORUGH THE KLAC-ERA
YOU EITHER ANIME NEXUS http://myanimelist.net/clubs.php?cid=24159 OR AGAINST THE ANIME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6WFM...eature=related
KLAC OF PERSONALITY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqyG8w0iMPw
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Old 2008-02-18, 10:08   Link #930
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
This ignores, however, the many supporting parts of why someone could like 00:

-High-quality fights with a bare minimum of stock footage
Short fights as you've pointed out. However if I had to watch stockfights of mechas and battleships fighting vs. characters standing around with hundreds of dramtic pauses between sentences...

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-An excellent and varied supporting cast of antagonists who are actually more sympathetic than most of the main characters. Graham has more balls and charisma than any three Meisters, noble Sergei never wavers in ability or moral resolve, rogue Ali who lives and fights for himself, stoic Soma who we all keep waiting to learn some humanity. Even comic relief Patrick.
Except for Ali, who is Setsuna's storyboard bitch, I agree.

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-A refreshingly new attempt to actually look at and work with global politics and power relations overall, rather than the half-extended generalizations of Seed and Destiny. ("Everyone in PLANT loves Lacus, instant POWER!" "the EA (AF) wants to kill coordinators," "PLANT is good when not trying to kill everyone," "No one cares what happens in Asia or Africa," "Orb is always neutral, even when it fights one side or another.") I don't even hold that against Seed-verse (much), because I don't watch Seed with expectations of a viewpoint being the leaders in power. Seeing it in 00 is a nice change, even if it could be done better here or there.
Actually Seed's backstory made the situation a little more complicated than any of that. Destiny certainly took alot of things for granted and over simplified global politics. Seed, not so much. There were economic reasons for why there was a war, and the whole Natural/Coordinator thing was simply one aspect of it, even if it served as a rallying cry for some people.

Seed was about war escaluating out of control, while Destiny was about...Strike Freedom?

OO presenting a standing balance of power, rather than a large-scale war is interesting, but the show doesn't really use it much as it should. Especially since I'm dying for Graham, Sergei, Soma, and Patrick to be in a room together.

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-Watching the fallacy of a group try to end war through war play itself out, especially when the group is such a collection of f'ed up individuals who are still working it out
The individuals don't seem too interested in working things out though. They're happy being Meisters. That's the problem. I think the absent of social skills is simply an excuse to keep any interesting discussions about their beliefs from happening.

The fact they don't really believe anything before launching their global crusade is what pisses me off the most.

Quote:
-The director's mastery in driving the audience to feel one way about a person (say, Louise), only to spring an abrupt turn of events to give a character an entirely new deminsion (Setsuna killing his parents in the name of God? Louise amputated? Super-computer Veda actually being not only infalible, but a deadly weakness?) It has been almost as amusing watching the audience feel near uniformly about one character or another, and then have a complete switch; Louise went from useless b**** to everyone's character of the hour.
Not too sure about this one since I detach myself from characters that I hate so their special little emo scenes tend to only matter to me as far as substance is concerned. Louise's was one of the best in series, bar none, but Setsuna murdering his parents and him not caring about it, well, apathy is as apathy does.

As for the shift in attitudes towards character amongst the audience, I don't really like it myself. To suddenly feel bad for Louise, while not trying to understand her in the first place annoys me.

Quote:
- Effective use of techniques such as foreshadowing and dramatic effects with music and images, while also not falling into the trap of simply revealing past histories in a single monolog. Setsuna's past was flashes here and there, Allelujah took his own episode a dozen eps in, Lockon is mostly out now, and we still have no f'n clue as to what the Incident was with Sumeragi, what exactly happened for Graham to be called on fratricide, what the hell Tieria even is, etc.
This is actually an annoyance. I'd rather know nothing than wait to learn something. Especially since they like to re-use flashbacks GSD-style without actually telling us anything new.

Last edited by Wesley84; 2008-02-18 at 10:35.
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Old 2008-02-18, 11:22   Link #931
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I suppose you've proven your point though. There's actually plenty I like about Gundam OO, but we see too little of the parts of it I like, compared to the parts that I hate.
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Old 2008-02-18, 11:37   Link #932
Dean_the_Young
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
Short fights as you've pointed out. However if I had to watch stockfights of mechas and battleships fighting vs. characters standing around with hundreds of dramtic pauses between sentences...
Six of one, half a dozen of another, I know. Destiny made much more of an impression on me than Seed (not least because I saw them in reverse order after I got sick of the Seed dub when it came out, and only watched the sub later), with the dozens of flight MS that kindly just hovered there, not really aiming, waiting for the latest cool-dramatic-pose attack (tm). For 00, short but better is a relief from Destiny, which is a very simple reason for liking it.

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Except for Ali, who is Setsuna's storyboard bitch, I agree.
I wouldn't use that term myself, but it looks like Ali gets his own action next episode. For the moment, his moments have all been with Setsuna, with only snipits of him out of the cockpit.


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Actually Seed's backstory made the situation a little more complicated than any of that. Destiny certainly took alot of things for granted and over simplified global politics. Seed, not so much. There were economic reasons for why there was a war, and the whole Natural/Coordinator thing was simply one aspect of it, even if it served as a rallying cry for some people.
True, and I admit I was talking more of Destiny than Seed (though Destiny largely magnified the overlookable parts of Seed). Seed had some interesting political dynamics, such as a Eurasia-AF rivalry, South America and Australia declaring for ZAFT, etc., but the series was more about following the travel of Kira and Co, and the politics was reserved for sidestories until jetissioned in Destiny.

(Though why, why, did they feel compelled to make a blatant political statement of genocidal American religious fanatics? Could you be any less subtle?)
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Seed was about war escaluating out of control, while Destiny was about...Strike Freedom?
Pretty much, though I'd say Seed's biggest point was of Kira getting all the girls, including Cagelli, while trying to survive.
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OO presenting a standing balance of power, rather than a large-scale war is interesting, but the show doesn't really use it much as it should. Especially since I'm dying for Graham, Sergei, Soma, and Patrick to be in a room together.
And that, my friend, is the marvel of good directing. The staff has been making the Powers be so attractive, and have been steadily increasing the tempo of the drive inter-power cooperation since the beginning, wanting us to anticipate the shear awsomeness of all of them in the same room. That is what directing should do; I remember how people kept waiting for Kira to meet some of the other ZAFT pilots, and BAM meeting Dearka was a good moment. Compare that to a throw-away meeting between Shinn and Kira in Destiny, which served no purpose later on...

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The individuals don't seem too interested in working things out though. They're happy being Meisters. That's the problem. I think the absent of social skills is simply an excuse to keep any interesting discussions about their beliefs from happening.

The fact they don't really believe anything before launching their global crusade is what pisses me off the most.
Hm? It's pretty clear that most of the Meisters have pretty basic beliefs, albeit too uniform. Setsuna believes in Gundam as opposed to God, and wants to become the Gundam (and by extension, the manifestation of Schenberg's ideals). Lockon wants to prevent any terrorist attacks from happening in the future, after paying the cost now. Allelujah doesn't want there to be a need for any more kids like him. They are all manifestly anti-war from personal experiences, not from some deep driving philosophy.

Tieria is Veda's love slave, likely born and raised in CB like Felt.

Really, it's the rest of the Ptolemy crew that doesn't have a clear motivation. Sumeragi has a mystery reason for leaving the Union military, but not joining CB. I'd be more interested with her in the Union with a dark past, like Graham, rather than in CB. (As a matter of fact, I even wrote a drabble based on that WI, though it was extremely mediocre.)
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Not too sure about this one since I detach myself from characters that I hate so their special little emo scenes tend to only matter to me as far as substance is concerned. Louise's was one of the best in series, bar none, but Setsuna murdering his parents and him not caring about it, well, apathy is as apathy does.
This is a taste judgement, more than a ability judgement. Louise's scene was good because it masterfully combined tricks such as proper application of background movement, sound effects, the shaking camera with ominous music when Saji was racing through the hospital, and the like. Setsuna's scene was supposed to give us an inkling as to why he suddenly gets such an out-of-(established)-character reaction when seeing Ali. Different mechanics, different purpose.
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As for the shift in attitudes towards character amongst the audience, I don't really like it myself. To suddenly feel bad for Louise, while not trying to understand her in the first place annoys me.
It's a testament to the director's ability to not only direct the show, but to at the same time direct audience who is the just as involved in a presentation as any character. If you are resistant to such techniques, fine and good, so am I. But I can still appreciate the meistro-finese involved; Neena went from adored to hated in an episode and a half, Setsuna had almost everyone's support to beat the Thrones hard (even if few actually expected him to), Mason's death directly led to more than a few people cheering when Graham sliced off the arm of those evil, ominous Thrones...

You might not personally like that style, but that doesn't make it any worse in regards to quality. I personally detest art, but I can still appreciate the fine strokes and subtle hues of a DiVinci painting, even if I can't name it. I can still appreciate a good action-thriller, even though those aren't my kind of book. A 00 weakness may be its main character characterization, but it's also balanced out by the rival characters, who have gotten much more focus thus far. (For example: compare Graham's lines for the first five episodes, and then the lines of all the Meisters combined out of their suits. It's telling.)


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This is actually an annoyance. I'd rather know nothing than wait to learn something. Especially since they like to re-use flashbacks GSD-style without actually telling us anything new.
Considering how 00 has had so few in-series flashback films at this point (the clipshow episode, which at the same time gave new information as to CB's makeup) and just last episode with the Saji-Louise flashback (which actually gave us a new one as to how they met), it's not really fair to say that. By episode 18, Destiny had had a lot, lot more, and most of those were much longer in duration and really didn't put any new info in. Compare the most common flashback of 00, of Setsuna shooting his mother, to Shinn and his family's death. Or the battle stock footage, including the overly intricate Impulse launch twirling sequence.
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Old 2008-02-18, 11:57   Link #933
Sir Dearka
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I find it funny that there are still SEED-bashers who are trying to tell rubbish such as "every Gundam fan accepted the fact that SEED sucks". That's not good taste. That's just friggin' stupid.

Gundam 00 is very good series. But somehow it still did not (but it may, seeing how it is improving from one ep to another) affect me as much as Fukuda's series. Maybe it is because, like Wesley84, I watched it as my first Gundam series ever... ok, maybe there was Wing before that. But it is SEED that utterly made me fall into the Gundam multiverse.
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Old 2008-02-18, 12:04   Link #934
Dean_the_Young
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Thought I'd get that last one out of the way, and then do this one. Then I'm back to class.
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
I don't really think I'm being obstinate. I certainly don't believe in doggedly arguing for the sake of "winning". Realistically, agreeing to disagree is the best I can hope for, but I still enjoy writing out what I think. It's a creative exercise, nothing more.
The problem is when we read your posts, differentiating between "fact" and "opinion." You like to use absolutes alot: "this is," "he was," things that give no gramatical leeway: they're boolian statements, only true or false. You'd run into half the number of fellow obstinates (such as myself) if you used some qualifiers here and there: "I believe" is a common one, while "imo" is internet shorthand you'd likely not like. But giving a qualifying statement that marks something as an opinion rather than as an absolute fact fit to be placed in an encyclopedia makes it much more amiable for people who have differing views.

To put what I'm saying in perspective, I (rarely, because sometimes you need to) don't call a subordinate a total moron when he does something I don't think was smart: I call him on exactly what I think went wrong, give him a chance to explain, and then respond accordingly. That not only is better personal skills, but if I turn out to be the one who's wrong (like, "oh, there's an enemy squad around the bend, and you're out of standard position in preparation for that?"), then I haven't made an ass of myself for no reason.

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You're the one that said "My opinion = Facts ". Obviously you don't think I'm worth arguing with so why even say that? Because I'm annoying you? I don't know what phase you went through, but maybe you've misunderstood me?
You're assuming I have something better to do. I'm just a bum of a college student.

I should clarify what I said, though. It's not that you annoy me, it's that you remind me of what I was like about 6-7 years ago, when I was in the "I'm a world-aware teenager with a working brain, I know everything" stage. It could be the qualifier situation I mentioned above: that's a big part of it. But I can see you have a very sharp, observant mind. That's good, and it will carry you far. But I can hear your words from a position you can't, and I can also see that you have some experience to gain in various areas. I'm sure your much better off than I was back then (and gods I could be an ass when I tried, before I learned to shut my mouth), but seeing the same mistakes I made feels like I'm doing them all over, and that does hurt. I understand the points you make, and respect them, but it's the formation and delivery that hurt.
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And if you're refering to the mst3k-style posts I type up as I watch an episode, that's not so much as arguing as venting. Another creative exercise.
I'll have to wait and see more of your debate skills, but it's what really stands out to me.
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I can appreciate how complicated the world is, but Gundam OO obviously does not.
Of course not: 00 is a work of fiction, and in works of literature you need to adjust accordingly. In 00, we are told that the Gundams can use the elevators almost freely. Now, I've seen people argue endlessly that "any rational person" would be able to prevent that from happening and give a rational argument as to why, and I've seen any number of people counter those rational arguments with their own rational arguments and analogies. But for a work of fiction, sometimes you have to accept what you're told and then just fill in a rational explanation: in 00, the gundams can be smuggled on the elevators. In 1984, doubleThink works. In Dune, Spice works but can't be easily replicated via chemistry. The problem many have is an unwillingness to move beyond what they see as a flaw, even though in the end it really has no bearing on the overall dynamics and plot (and may well be addressed later). That is what gets people called for nitpicking, rightly or wrongly.

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I didn't really mean colorful as being literally colorful. More like the animation style and battle choregraphy. Gundam OO's got good choregraphy as far as Exia's concerned, even if it's portrayal of military tactics and grunts is generally poor.
Actually, I've thought choreography was good overall, though I'd be interested to see what you thought was bad. Something admittedly have to be handwaved away: Soma shooting Allelujah at point blank for no effect and the lack of battle scars on the gundams is a big one. But the Flags (read, Graham) are usually equally good, and Ali has been pure win when fighting the Exia.
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Old 2008-02-18, 13:05   Link #935
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Six of one, half a dozen of another, I know. Destiny made much more of an impression on me than Seed (not least because I saw them in reverse order after I got sick of the Seed dub when it came out, and only watched the sub later), with the dozens of flight MS that kindly just hovered there, not really aiming, waiting for the latest cool-dramatic-pose attack (tm). For 00, short but better is a relief from Destiny, which is a very simple reason for liking it.
Also there's the absense of sponateously combusting MSes. That's something else that I like about Gundam OO over Gundam Seed/Destiny. Though, I won't say every battle in OO has been enjoyable or interesting. The animation might be better compared to Seed, but I don't think we've had a defining fight in OO yet.

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I wouldn't use that term myself, but it looks like Ali gets his own action next episode. For the moment, his moments have all been with Setsuna, with only snipits of him out of the cockpit.
I just hope it's not simply to make us hate Ali more. It'd be a shame for him to simply shoot Kinue between the eyes and drive off for the lulz. I really want him to be likeable and interesting in his own right, but I said the same thing about the Thrones who haven't measured up.

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True, and I admit I was talking more of Destiny than Seed (though Destiny largely magnified the overlookable parts of Seed). Seed had some interesting political dynamics, such as a Eurasia-AF rivalry, South America and Australia declaring for ZAFT, etc., but the series was more about following the travel of Kira and Co, and the politics was reserved for sidestories until jetissioned in Destiny.
If CE excels at anything, it's creating side-stories. Not that I've read them myself, but there's alot of them and they're not really even connected to Kira and company, except for the odd piece of named gear.

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(Though why, why, did they feel compelled to make a blatant political statement of genocidal American religious fanatics? Could you be any less subtle?)
Pretty much, though I'd say Seed's biggest point was of Kira getting all the girls, including Cagelli, while trying to survive.
I'm pleased they aren't making the United States into religious fanatics in OO, but I feel for the Middle East, especially after this last episode. I don't really buy into being able to use religion to override people's better judgement. If they can be placated into murdering people en masse simply by invoking the "G" word, there's something wrong with them, not their necessarily their religion.

And Kira's harem wasn't as blatant and silly as Athrun's that's for sure.

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And that, my friend, is the marvel of good directing. The staff has been making the Powers be so attractive, and have been steadily increasing the tempo of the drive inter-power cooperation since the beginning, wanting us to anticipate the shear awsomeness of all of them in the same room. That is what directing should do; I remember how people kept waiting for Kira to meet some of the other ZAFT pilots, and BAM meeting Dearka was a good moment. Compare that to a throw-away meeting between Shinn and Kira in Destiny, which served no purpose later on...
I've spent most of the series anticipacting the Meisters' deaths. Just goes to show that no matter who the director is you can't please everyone.

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Hm? It's pretty clear that most of the Meisters have pretty basic beliefs, albeit too uniform. Setsuna believes in Gundam as opposed to God, and wants to become the Gundam (and by extension, the manifestation of Schenberg's ideals). Lockon wants to prevent any terrorist attacks from happening in the future, after paying the cost now. Allelujah doesn't want there to be a need for any more kids like him. They are all manifestly anti-war from personal experiences, not from some deep driving philosophy.

Tieria is Veda's love slave, likely born and raised in CB like Felt.
I know their experiences have defined their actions, but that doesn't satisfy me. They're essentionally dragging the world through the mud because they got a bad lot in life. And I suppose that is enough as far as motiviation is concerned, but they recieve far too much screentime for their pasts to carry them.

Hopefully 19 marks the beginning of the end of the Meister's tunnel-vision and selfishness. Either that or the start of their beautiful friendships.

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Really, it's the rest of the Ptolemy crew that doesn't have a clear motivation. Sumeragi has a mystery reason for leaving the Union military, but not joining CB. I'd be more interested with her in the Union with a dark past, like Graham, rather than in CB. (As a matter of fact, I even wrote a drabble based on that WI, though it was extremely mediocre.)
Actually Sumeragi joining CB is more interesting than her leaving the Union. Presumably she screwed up horribly. It could be anything, but let's give her the benefit of the doubt and assume it was something where alot of people died. Something so traumatic she quit her job. Or was fired. And she took up drinking and became somewhat suicidal in her outlook on life.

Why's she with CB doing the same line of work? How does she justify taking on an even greater responsiblity that betrays her nation at the same time?

She doesn't seem to care, but at the same time she seems to care too much.

I don't really like her, since she's inconsistent and is a bit of a drama queen that likes to feel sorry for herself. She should know better than to be doing what she's doing, but she's doing it anyway.

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This is a taste judgement, more than a ability judgement. Louise's scene was good because it masterfully combined tricks such as proper application of background movement, sound effects, the shaking camera with ominous music when Saji was racing through the hospital, and the like. Setsuna's scene was supposed to give us an inkling as to why he suddenly gets such an out-of-(established)-character reaction when seeing Ali. Different mechanics, different purpose.
It's a testament to the director's ability to not only direct the show, but to at the same time direct audience who is the just as involved in a presentation as any character. If you are resistant to such techniques, fine and good, so am I. But I can still appreciate the meistro-finese involved; Neena went from adored to hated in an episode and a half, Setsuna had almost everyone's support to beat the Thrones hard (even if few actually expected him to), Mason's death directly led to more than a few people cheering when Graham sliced off the arm of those evil, ominous Thrones...
Gundam OO seems to be popular, despite myself. I nitpick OO quite a bit, so I know when they're simply insulting the intelligence or presuming forgiveness on the part of the audience. "I will have Michael kill Mason now in defiance of Johan, but a couple episodes later Michael will barely defend himself without Johan's direction." It's not consistent and thing's of that nature happen too frequently in OO.

That's why I'm really hoping it'll all come full-circle by the end. I can't see the big picture and have a hard time believeing there is going to be one that will make sense. I will be very disappointed if everything so far was based on a whim.

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You might not personally like that style, but that doesn't make it any worse in regards to quality. I personally detest art, but I can still appreciate the fine strokes and subtle hues of a DiVinci painting, even if I can't name it. I can still appreciate a good action-thriller, even though those aren't my kind of book. A 00 weakness may be its main character characterization, but it's also balanced out by the rival characters, who have gotten much more focus thus far. (For example: compare Graham's lines for the first five episodes, and then the lines of all the Meisters combined out of their suits. It's telling.)
I don't know if it's really balanced out. Certainly the show's progress has been painful for me, who loathes the pace at which Celestial Being presents itself, while living the high life. I can't help but think they could have crammed everything we've seen so far into ten episodes, compared to the twenty we've had, without losing anything besides advertising in the process.

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Considering how 00 has had so few in-series flashback films at this point (the clipshow episode, which at the same time gave new information as to CB's makeup) and just last episode with the Saji-Louise flashback (which actually gave us a new one as to how they met), it's not really fair to say that. By episode 18, Destiny had had a lot, lot more, and most of those were much longer in duration and really didn't put any new info in. Compare the most common flashback of 00, of Setsuna shooting his mother, to Shinn and his family's death. Or the battle stock footage, including the overly intricate Impulse launch twirling sequence.
With any luck, episode 19 marked the end of the Flashbacks. Their pasts are out in the open, now, let's all go kill Ali so we can have some closure. Sound good?
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Old 2008-02-18, 14:00   Link #936
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Thought I'd get that last one out of the way, and then do this one. Then I'm back to class.

The problem is when we read your posts, differentiating between "fact" and "opinion." You like to use absolutes alot: "this is," "he was," things that give no gramatical leeway: they're boolian statements, only true or false. You'd run into half the number of fellow obstinates (such as myself) if you used some qualifiers here and there: "I believe" is a common one, while "imo" is internet shorthand you'd likely not like. But giving a qualifying statement that marks something as an opinion rather than as an absolute fact fit to be placed in an encyclopedia makes it much more amiable for people who have differing views.

To put what I'm saying in perspective, I (rarely, because sometimes you need to) don't call a subordinate a total moron when he does something I don't think was smart: I call him on exactly what I think went wrong, give him a chance to explain, and then respond accordingly. That not only is better personal skills, but if I turn out to be the one who's wrong (like, "oh, there's an enemy squad around the bend, and you're out of standard position in preparation for that?"), then I haven't made an ass of myself for no reason.
I'll make a note of it. I am operating under assumption that passion begets passion, though I seem to get more contempt than I'd like. It shocks me that I've been told I'm hated for the things I've said.

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You're assuming I have something better to do. I'm just a bum of a college student.
We're probably closer in age than you think.

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I should clarify what I said, though. It's not that you annoy me, it's that you remind me of what I was like about 6-7 years ago, when I was in the "I'm a world-aware teenager with a working brain, I know everything" stage. It could be the qualifier situation I mentioned above: that's a big part of it. But I can see you have a very sharp, observant mind. That's good, and it will carry you far. But I can hear your words from a position you can't, and I can also see that you have some experience to gain in various areas. I'm sure your much better off than I was back then (and gods I could be an ass when I tried, before I learned to shut my mouth), but seeing the same mistakes I made feels like I'm doing them all over, and that does hurt. I understand the points you make, and respect them, but it's the formation and delivery that hurt.
I know exactly what you mean, although you're probably a bit further along than me. I'm at the "I will develope and adhere to my beliefs" - stage. Being preachy and passionate helps to shape my own opinion. Especially when there's little facts to be had or interpretation is more open.

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Of course not: 00 is a work of fiction, and in works of literature you need to adjust accordingly. In 00, we are told that the Gundams can use the elevators almost freely. Now, I've seen people argue endlessly that "any rational person" would be able to prevent that from happening and give a rational argument as to why, and I've seen any number of people counter those rational arguments with their own rational arguments and analogies. But for a work of fiction, sometimes you have to accept what you're told and then just fill in a rational explanation: in 00, the gundams can be smuggled on the elevators. In 1984, doubleThink works. In Dune, Spice works but can't be easily replicated via chemistry. The problem many have is an unwillingness to move beyond what they see as a flaw, even though in the end it really has no bearing on the overall dynamics and plot (and may well be addressed later). That is what gets people called for nitpicking, rightly or wrongly.
I understand a nitpick here or there won't make or break a standing work of fiction. Hell, I can sight the mess that Star Wars "canon" has become to show how sometimes a clear and unarguable rational is simply not going to happen. That's why I'm really hoping that even as I note and categorize OO's inconsistencies and contradictions, that eventually I'll get an explanation.

I won't simply accept something as a point of plot convinence until there's nothing else left to be had.

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Actually, I've thought choreography was good overall, though I'd be interested to see what you thought was bad. Something admittedly have to be handwaved away: Soma shooting Allelujah at point blank for no effect and the lack of battle scars on the gundams is a big one. But the Flags (read, Graham) are usually equally good, and Ali has been pure win when fighting the Exia.
Oh, I haven't had a problem with the choreography. I think I said that was one of strong points didn't I? If I absolutely had to nitpicky though, I'd say the neat lines and formations grunt MSes like to fly and march in. Could they make themselves slightly less easy to kill en masse?
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Old 2008-02-18, 14:17   Link #937
D a m i e n
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i always hoped there would never be a third season of SEED weither it would be TV or a movie it would have been a waste of time.
Unlike UC the CE universe was weak and didnt receive enought background work from the start in order to be able to withstand a comparison with UC.
The best thing in CE ws stargazer it was the only thing i really liked in CE.
Gundam SEED will yet remain the serie that gave birth to one the best character in the last decades : Flay alster but aside from that the whole serie was average. Gundam SEED was just a copy and past fron the orignal 0079 (even archangel is a rippoff).
Destiny completely destroyed the potential CE universe had. so many things went bad, it s not necessary to discuss about GSD anymore.

as for G00, even though the animation is good and the background story has a very good potential, the general plot took way too much time to start, it took em 15 episode to finish setting things up. storytellingwise G00 is weak but the subject being develloped are interresting, i ll have to see how they deal with it.
just my 2cents
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Old 2008-02-18, 15:54   Link #938
Sir Dearka
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I don't perceive Gundam SEED as 0079 rip-off, really. The atmosphere, the characters and overall mood were so different. Better, IMO. Some people may not like this air of innocence that SEED has, but I liked it. A lot. A lot more than the first series which I respect for its pioneership, but for nothing more.
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Old 2008-02-18, 16:14   Link #939
Dean_the_Young
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The reason why people cry "rip off," and with a valid point, is that most of the plot points neatly line up in a format that can roughly be described as "change name A to location B, wording of motivation from C to D, etc." This is to be expected, as Seed was explicitly intended to be a homage/remake of 0079, but it can be aggravating.

I actually didn't mind it so much in Seed, where it worked well for the most part, but it crashed in Destiny at about the point where the writer started changing things for her own interest.
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Old 2008-02-18, 16:19   Link #940
Sir Dearka
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Well then, please, show me other Gundam pilots. Show me Yzak, Dearka, Nicol counterparts in MSG. Athrun is not really Char-like beside the fact that he pilots red MSs.

SEED was a homage to MSG. But still got so many differences aside analogies that I watched it as a totally different show. Plotwise or, the more, in terms of character/mecha etc. designs.
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