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Old 2008-02-20, 00:25   Link #81
Schneizel
fanatical racism moe
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 27

What is typesetting
Oh comic sans, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more
Oh comic sans, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more

What is typesetting
Yeah

Oh, I don't know why you're not there
I give you my .ass script, but you want afx
So what is right and what is wrong
Gimme a sign to \pos

What is typesetting
Oh fuckingannoyingmovingsign, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more
What is typesetting
Oh fuckingannoyingmovingsign, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more

Whoa whoa whoa, oooh oooh
Whoa whoa whoa, oooh oooh

Oh .ass, I don't know, what can I do
What else can I type, it's up to you
I know we're one, just me and you
I can't go on

What is typesetting
Oh baar sophia, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more
What is typesetting
Oh baar sophia, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more

Whoa whoa whoa, oooh oooh
Whoa whoa whoa, oooh oooh

What is typesetting, oooh, oooh, oooh
What is typesetting, oooh, oooh, oooh

What is typesetting
Oh credits, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more

Don't hurt me
Don't hurt me

I want no other, no other typesetter
This is your life, our time
When we are together, I need your style forever
Is it typesetting

What is typesetting
Oh \clip, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more
What is typesetting
Oh \clip, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more (oooh, oooh)

What is typesetting
Oh AFX, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more
What is typesetting
Oh AFX, don't hurt me
Don't hurt me no more (oooh, oooh)

What is typesetting?
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Old 2008-02-20, 10:08   Link #82
Bot1
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dammit koda for baar sophia isn't THAT bad
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Old 2008-02-20, 11:54   Link #83
cyth
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It's kind of hard to sing that song, I tried. ;_______;
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Old 2008-02-20, 13:14   Link #84
DryFire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toua View Post
It's kind of hard to sing that song, I tried. ;_______;
Try a few more beers and you may be able to do it!

Can this thread be over now? I think koda's song will be the highest point it will see for the rest of its duration.
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Old 2008-02-20, 14:35   Link #85
Daiz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shomazta View Post
Say, for instance, there is a seen in an animation that portrays a bag. Now, this bag has kanji/kana writings on it which you, a non-japanese speaking/reading person have no understanding of.

Are you suffice with just seeing an "onscreen?"
(click)

Would you be fine watching subs (in this sense I mean plain subtitles) overlaying the image?
(click)

Are you fine with no translation for that scene whatsoever?
(click)

Or would you much rather prefer someone taking the time to work in the English translation of that "sign," in such a way that the typeset does not stand out profusely and manages to blend in with the original (source) animation?
(click)

Just to clarify my standing on this issue; we all know that the definition of typesetting is simply setting type. So noone is wrong there. But what we should be debating/discussing is; What is good typesetting?
I basically agree with what edogawaconan said, #2 and #4 are good, but if it's totally unrelated, I would say they are just a waste of time (especially #4) and both can be horrible if done incorrectly. #1 will surely catch your attention, so if it's important, this might be a good approach, but if it's not important, the best solution would be most likely to just leave it out like in #3.

Also, it seems like you literally used the most horrible examples you can have of #1 and #2 (seriously, Comic Sans? Why would you do that?), so I made my own versions:

#1: "Translation note"-esque translation of bag text
#2: Softsubbed and positioned text under original text (the outline got messed up a bit, it was supposed to be a bit transparent)

Personally I have to say that I prefer my #2 the most, even over your #4, because even though the text in your #4 "blends in" better I think it looks more unnatural and "tacked on" because of funky font choice and different font color than the original bag text.

Anyway, it's up to the typesetter (and translator) to decide what kind of approach out of these four should be used with different signs/onscreen texts. And even if you couldn't do #4 properly, I don't think it would be a problem if you are good at #2, since I'd say it's enough for most situations.
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Old 2008-02-20, 15:32   Link #86
Daiz
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"Error 403 - Forbidden

You are forbidden from entering this area.

Leave at once and I will forget you came here!"

Kinda hard to see a difference in four identical error pages.
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Old 2008-02-20, 15:39   Link #87
pichu
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Well, we are planning to give out screenshots for you to decide. Words can say nothing, but our work can.

Here are a few examples.

1. Basic Note Style (just the translation with some very basic style)
2. Basic Sign Styling (angled text with a basic style)
3. Better Sign Styling (angled text with a better style)
4. Full Sign Typesetting Match (skewed/angled text with close fonts and pencil simulations)

See the difference?

Shots taken from this webpage.

If you need to see more examples, I'll be glad to show them to you later on.
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Old 2008-02-20, 16:00   Link #88
Daiz
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Of course I can see the difference. #4 looks the best, but personally I think the translation font should differ at least a bit more so that the viewer can notice with a simple glance what is translated and what is original text. This should be done in a way that it isn't distracting to the viewer, though. I would probably do something like this myself:

Softsubs with matching color and angles

This would be a good-looking solution (and relatively simple to do) in my opinion.

Note that if I was the actual typesetter for this, I would spend some time looking for a different font, but since this is just an example, I just used a font that I already had.
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Old 2008-02-20, 16:09   Link #89
pichu
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well your font selection is bad in terms of thicknesses (my ideal goal is to match sizes and/or weights)... Plus that they have different handwritings, so don't you think they should have different fonts?

Also, if you watch that show (ep2 of School Days), you'll notice it starts out as a full text and then cut in half... so that's why in #4, the top note is cut.
The bottom font in #4 is actually an exact font, and the upper font is actually a comparisons of around a hundred handwritten fonts to the actual Japanese writing, and the strokes lengths and weights are matched as close as possible; it's a shame that the anime artist uses a well-known Japanese font.

Each of us has different beliefs. I believe that all subs should be removed from the video because they distract my enjoyments, and yet I need to know what they are talking about. Signs typesettings that get blended in nicely permit that belief.

Anyways, I don't know much about you in fansubbing or typesetting per se... So I'm not sure what work have you been involved with, but this is my ideal for signs typesettings.
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Old 2008-02-20, 16:26   Link #90
Daiz
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Yes, it all comes down to user preferences and I think we can clearly say that we prefer different things. I don't personally mind subtitles and they don't distract me the least bit (unless they are really, really, horribly styled, but fortunately I think I've only seen this kind of horror for once or twice at maximum). Like I said, in my opinion the translated text should be "highlighted" in some way so the viewer can quickly find it from the original text. That's why I used a thicker font than what the original writing is.

Also, regarding that particular scene: How important are those two short lines to the overall plot? I haven't watched School Days myself, so I couldn't know. But judging from the process you listed, I'd say it would take pretty long time of work just for those two little lines, and I'd rather have a little faster release with "rougher" sign typesetting than have "perfectly fine-tuned stroke widths" (I don't think anyone else would even notice this, because I didn't notice these little things when looking at the picture, so how would you do when viewing it for only a small time in the actual video?) and a release that takes forever.

And like I said, if I was the actual typesetter for that, I would most likely use two different fonts and spend some time looking for good handwriting fonts, but since I just made an example, I used what I already had. The point anyway was to demonstrate how a "highlighted" font is easier for the viewer, since it's recognized faster (in other words, it has a better readability in my opinion, and readibility is pretty important in a video that is constantly moving forward. In the ideal situation, you wouldn't have the need to stop the video in order to read on-screen signs).

One another thing though, if you really want font perfection, couldn't you just overwrite the original text after you achieve it? I don't think it would make a dramatical difference to lose the japanese writing, but it would make a huge difference when it comes to readability.
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Old 2008-02-20, 17:15   Link #91
pichu
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It was a 15 minutes job... the sign's moving too... the total time for everything in ep2 (two typesetters) is about a few hours each (I think that sums up about 20-30 signs in ep2). I don't mind at all, since the outcome is really nice, and the speed was actually quite good until ep3 when other factors occurred, and honestly, TS never held up the project.

Not to sound arrogant, but ... Why bother even using handwriting fonts or your so-called 'highlighted' handwriting fonts when they don't even match? Won't using a sans font like Arial bold be more readable than your selection of handwriting fonts? And need I repeat that I already matched an EXACT font? Why using other font when I could have used an EXACT font that's used in the animation? There are more stuff than just angles, colors, fonts, and sizes in signs typesetting...

Your descriptions of 'typesettings' were already done by myself four years ago. After years of experience, talking to fellow fansubbers, and watching other fansubs, I've decided to do even better jobs than what I did before.

Anyways, which groups and projects are you working with? You seem to be more experienced than I am.
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Old 2008-02-21, 00:29   Link #92
chaos4ever
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All I have to say is that Typesetting a fun job that becomes a bitch when you have to do it frame by frame....

but I take pride in the work I do, whenever it gets released...

(and as usual, i'm always late to the party)

Last edited by chaos4ever; 2008-02-21 at 01:03.
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Old 2008-02-21, 10:07   Link #93
Daiz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pichus View Post
Not to sound arrogant, but ... Why bother even using handwriting fonts or your so-called 'highlighted' handwriting fonts when they don't even match? Won't using a sans font like Arial bold be more readable than your selection of handwriting fonts? And need I repeat that I already matched an EXACT font? Why using other font when I could have used an EXACT font that's used in the animation? There are more stuff than just angles, colors, fonts, and sizes in signs typesetting...
I'm not exactly complaining about the fonts... There is something else that actually is bad in your example. Take a look at this image explanation:

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/6...iswrongnm4.jpg

Like I've said, there's nothing wrong with trying to have "font perfection", but this is not it. You have good fonts, but they cause readability problems. I would actually call this bad typesetting because of this. Not even the best fonts can save anything if you can't read the text in question properly.

The version I made might be "cruder" when it comes to the fonts itself, but it doesn't fail in readability. Like you said, there are more stuff than just angles, colors, fonts and sizes in sign typesetting. Readability is one of them. It seems to me that you forgot this yourself in this case.

If possible, can you post more examples of what you have done? As far as I know, this might be just a special occasion where the readability is bad, but if this problem repeats then I think you have found something where you have room for improvement.

Also, you didn't answer my question the last time, so I'll ask it again: Have you thought about replacing the original Japanese text with the translated versions? It shouldn't be exactly hard to do, and since you have good fonts, it shouldn't dramatically change anything either. Instead, the readability would become instantly better, because there would be no unknown signs to confuse the viewers' thought process. But if the show has lots of other signs and lots of up-to-down writing, one replaced text might look funny, so it might not be a good idea after all. But like I said, I wouldn't know, since I haven't watched School Days.
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Last edited by Daiz; 2008-02-21 at 10:20.
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Old 2008-02-21, 19:51   Link #94
dj_tjerk
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sometimes it's easier to remove the original text.. sometimes it's easier to place english next to it.. in that school days example, i prolly would've moved the japanese further apart, to make room for the line to put inbetween, or moved them closer together and placed the 2 english lines somewhere below. But as you said, removing the original text might look funny when there's a lot of other unreplaced signs.
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Old 2008-02-21, 22:49   Link #95
chaos4ever
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A lot of the typesetting solutions just depend on the preferences of the typesetter and, in some cases, the project leader. My personal preference would be to keep the matched font, keep the relative text sizes as equivalent as possible, but improve the spacing between some of the letters. In addition, I would space the lines a little more evenly between the jp and eng lines.
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Old 2008-02-24, 21:57   Link #96
Maceart
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Pichus, I have to politely disagree. If the scene is moving, your "perfect" typesetting would be useless if no one is able to scan the screen at the rate of 20 words in a second. Bullshit, a simple text on top timed to when the signs appear will suffice 99.999% of the time.

/an8 is your best friend. Use it.
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Old 2008-02-25, 06:57   Link #97
juggen
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There is usualy a pause button >_>
Why have some useless text stuck at the top of the video for God knows how many seconds?
Why not use \an2 then? So that u don't miss the main subtitles while you're reading the "note/sign"?

I think nice typesetting has artistic value that should be more than welcomed.
Personally I love what pichu do =/
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Old 2008-02-25, 16:01   Link #98
False Dawn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maceart View Post
/an8 is your best friend. Use it.


No, shan't.
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Old 2008-02-26, 02:13   Link #99
pichu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maceart View Post
Pichus, I have to politely disagree. If the scene is moving, your "perfect" typesetting would be useless if no one is able to scan the screen at the rate of 20 words in a second. Bullshit, a simple text on top timed to when the signs appear will suffice 99.999% of the time.

/an8 is your best friend. Use it.
First of all, do you mean "\an8"? And I recalled that many people commended on and liked "our" TS style (signs, etc) for Bamboo Blade your group took part in... So you can't really say it's 'bullshit' or 'useless.' Also, I don't feel like discussing about it for people who never had experienced this at all.

Also there are specific guidelines for typesetting I followed... And I'll try to avoid squeezing 20 words in one second... (with proper extensions, that one second can be extended to five seconds on movements - use common sense)

PS: Why is my thread being moderated? ._. (most talk that weren't deleted were even worse than those being deleted)

To Daiz:

Quote:
Also, you didn't answer my question the last time, so I'll ask it again: Have you thought about replacing the original Japanese text with the translated versions?

Yes... And I hate it. It's more challenging to not replace it, and I have done it so many times seamlessly, so you can't tell whether or not that the original text has been altered.

Like I said, your so-called good typesetting was already old, done by myself four years ago... I don't need to listen what I already knew and experienced before. ANd you failed to answer me... WHAT IS YOUR TYPESETTING EXPERIENCE for you to speak so much of yourself.
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Last edited by pichu; 2008-02-26 at 02:35. Reason: Reply
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Old 2008-02-27, 00:59   Link #100
ladholyman
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Typesetting is cool and everything, but it's not worth going emo over.

That said, if you're good at it, I applaud at your skill. It leaves weak ass Chinese-English translators like me in the dust. \an8 is the extent of my abilities, so I'll leave it up to you masters in making everything fancy and shit.

Thanks again for the logo for Bamboo Blade, pichu.
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