SaiGar 2008 -- The Tournament of Men Among Men

[Grimkill7]

Honestly, I expected Kamina to lose this. There was a split between the GL fanboys and the trolls decided to pick the lesser of two evils, as Darklord bg said. It seems as if Simon is the only GL character immune to the GL hate that's been going around amongst the trolls, or at least, I never heard any complaints when Simon won his matches.

I also expect Kittan to lose against Giovanni simply because anti-GL trolls + meme = gbye Kittan.

[Whitefish]

Woah, proxy spike. Will SaiGAR guy do a rematch with this one, or is he ok as long as something GL wins?

[Grimkill7]

Originally Posted by Whitefish

Woah, proxy spike. Will SaiGAR guy do a rematch with this one, or is he ok as long as something GL wins?

He would have to redo the last 4 matches as well since they all had spikes.

[qtipbrit]

Originally Posted by Whitefish

Woah, proxy spike. Will SaiGAR guy do a rematch with this one, or is he ok as long as something GL wins?

Probably not, we already know that Kamina would have won were it not for proxies, so we're now really only deciding on second place.

This was by far the hugest spike so far, though it wasn't as drastic, it started very early and didn't end until much later. I guess proxyguy learned from Cornelia's loss and decided to get serious.

Also, Kittan today, since I'm not really into the Giovanni meme. Though I really don't think Kittan is as GAR as some of the other characters here, he's moreso than Giovanni, and I'm meme-hating here.

[Malintex_Terek]

So I had an IO test today I thought I was prepared for, drank some coffee and my brain went into freeze mode, I probably failed it...really sad. It was a gloomy day, overcast and rain, my horrible future grade, an upset stomach...

I went to class first instead of checking the status, thinking Genome was done for. I log onto the computer just now, see the results and go "feh, Kamina won, just like I thought"...then I scroll down a bit further.

Pardon my language, cursing is not my forte, but no other words can express the flush of utmost sublime that purged my brain of the noxious caffeine. Only a single, two word phrase could ever properly convey this feeling:

FUCK YEAH!!!!

[FLCL]

Originally Posted by cicido

>__>
<__<

*raises hand*

seconded, i thought hed win also, but i think lord genome/simon are garer

[Irenicus]

It's official; despite constant whining from their side about GL fanbois or whatever, the trolls dominate SaiGar.

From here onward it's war.

...but since this is the internet, and I have one vote while Troll-chan has thousands, I don't think I'll be able to do much.

Oh well.

Next round, Kittan. Giovanni is just a troll choice.

[Malintex_Terek]

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

Probably not, we already know that Kamina would have won were it not for proxies, so we're now really only deciding on second place.

Really now.

Shark Fujishiro v. Kino (2008 Block B Final) - 561
Maebara Keiichi v. Michishio Nagasumi (2008 Block C Final) - 639
Lord Genome v. Kamina (2008 Block D Final) - 754
Guts v. Master Asia (2007 Tournament Final) - 881
Hosaka v. Kaiji (2007 Block A Final) - 1151

Proxies, where? Even if proxies were the case, which they aren't, the voting totals are pretty consistent for all matches except the Block A Final, which had more than double the voting totals of the round after it. It would seem apparent to me that people are just going "LOL PROXY" for any outcome total that doesn't suit their tastes.

Even then, there's no proof of a botnet/proxy/subnet vote and this is especially true considering these are high-profile matches and the turnout is, compared to other times in the tournament, rather low. If anything, these matches are the most honest of all.

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

This was by far the hugest spike so far, though it wasn't as drastic, it started very early and didn't end until much later. I guess proxyguy learned from Cornelia's loss and decided to get serious.

Huge spike, where?? All I see is a staggered linear trend for Genome, and it's a long, consistent trend as well. Just because Genome's graph wasn't as "erratic" as Kamina's doesn't mean it's an indication of cheating, it was steady voting for the first half of the tournament. The graphs don't have to look "curved", that just indicates voting levels off after a time which is rarely the case anymore.

[cicido]

I demand saiGAR re-name it self to "troll's favourite character"

[Grimkill7]

Looks like it's smooth sailing from here on out. Maybe now, Kamina's fans will know my pain from when Ladd got f****d over.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

As long as Simon wins overall, I couldn't care less who wins the rest. Well, actually no, that's a lie. I hope Kittan kick's Giovanni's ass. There is no way in heaven or hell that Giovanni is GAR at all, much less GAR-er than Kittan.

[qtipbrit]

Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek

snip.

Precisely the words of someone who got their way in a proxy battle. (Of course, most others are at least mildly honest with themselves.)
People obviously all gang together and vote for a character at a constant rate for hours and then all decide that a character no longer deserves votes at some predtermined time as well, right?
And characters obviously only get all of their votes early on or later, and never have even mildly consistent vote patterns, since every person in the world is connected psychic-like and all know when others are about to vote the way they are.
Christ.

Originally Posted by cicido

I demand saiGAR re-name it self to "troll's favourite character"

You didn't already know?
Sai stand's for Trolls vote for, and GAR stands for less manly than others, but since I like this character and dislike another, I'll vote for this one.

Originally Posted by Grimkill7

Looks like it's smooth sailing from here on out. Maybe now, Kamina's fans will know my pain from when Ladd got f****d over.

Yeah, except I already knew that SaiGAR Guy was going to go for Lord Genome and that Lord Genome would probably win, since he's one of the few characters that actually stand a chance against another TTGL character, gaining both proxy botes and normal ones.

Ah well, guess I have to back Simon until the end.

[qtipbrit]

<double post>

[Ithekro]

So, 'Kamina is just going to win anyway'?

Sort of expected seeing the sort of mess that is 4chan today...and some of the other forums.

Wasn't quite as interesting as I was hoping for...not as epic as people were making it out to be. So far the most epic matchs we have are Hosaka vs. Kaiji and Kamina vs. A. niger vs. (Koichiro (Coach) Ohta).

Here is to the future. I will probably vote ??? for the next match (I dislike memes and was fine with JoJo or Lunar's Papa (I've now voted Terminator four times...50% success rate so far. And I did not vote for him in Round One of SaiGAR)). Simon will likely be the only GL vote I cast in the tournament followed by Medicine Seller, followed by Rena.

The results of the tournament may not be as GAR as some expect, but at least we are having interesting results.

[Gohan78]

I am not surprised that Kamina lost. In this kind of competition the initial favourite never wins, there's just too much hate-voting. Remember Suigintou in Saimoe 2007? She beat Fate with 1700+ votes and everybody thought that she had the tournament in the bag, but hate voters came to bite her in the a$$ in the next round.

Having said that, I actually voted for Lord Genome because I think he is the GARest character of TTGL. Kamina was great and all, but he didn't take down a Ganmen with his bare punches!
Genome was so manly that he didn't lose his attitude even when he was reduced to a talking head in a jar. And in the final battle he sacrificed himself again for the sake of his comrades. If this is not manly, badass and cool I don't know what GAR is anymore. I want an OVA about young Genome's battles against the Anti-Spirals!

[Malintex_Terek]

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

Precisely the words of someone who got their way in a proxy battle.

Oh jeez.

Anymore of this and I'll ask this topic closed. This bad blood needs to stop, the last few rounds have been great with fairly consistent voting totals, only someone who eschews any thinking whatsoever could continue to blame losses on voodoo voters.

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

People obviously all gang together and vote for a character at a constant rate for hours and then all decide that a character no longer deserves votes at some predtermined time as well, right?

You sound like one of those Ron Paul supporters/conspiracy theorists.

Assuming you were right, how would you prove this? Especially with such a low voting total? If this match had 1,100 votes like in Kaiji and Hosaka heavily skewed in favour of one character I might buy that argument, but making baseless assertions when there's nothing in the data to suggest it only singles you out as a bad sport.

You can't accuse me of taking high ground because I accepted Kittan losing to Jonathan in his round and still found it to be a good match, even if it was cheapened by cheating allegations. To a lesser extent I feel the same about Ladd and Rena.

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

And characters obviously only get all of their votes early on or later, and never have even mildly consistent vote patterns, since every person in the world is connected psychic-like and all know when others are about to vote the way they are.

[qtipbrit]

Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek

You sound like one of those Ron Paul supporters/conspiracy theorists.

Assuming you were right, how would you prove this? Especially with such a low voting total? If this match had 1,100 votes like in Kaiji and Hosaka heavily skewed in favour of one character I might buy that argument, but making baseless assertions when there's nothing in the data to suggest it only singles you out as a bad sport.

You can't accuse me of taking high ground because I accepted Kittan losing to Jonathan in his round and still found it to be a good match, even if it was cheapened by cheating allegations. To a lesser extent I feel the same about Ladd and Rena.

And I see that you're not even putting the fact that the first Kamina - Aspergil - Coach round had over 1500 votes into consideration. It's obvious that the number of votes matters little, as it's based almost entirely on chance, as proxies often would only need 100 or so votes to win (of course, when a character would win by such a larger margin (Kamina - Cornelia), then the proxy does little to skew results.

So you've accepted one proxy match and that makes you a good person?
A good amount of the important matches in more recent rounds have been affected by outside sources, and a good deal of the users who are participating have accepted easily. Right now, this isn't denial of the Lord Genome's win, but just the fact that some are trying to state that it was entirely fair and not due at all to proxies or troll votes, as I had suspected that events would develop in this fashion before the match had even started.

Originally Posted by Gohan78

Having said that, I actually voted for Lord Genome because I think he is the GARest character of TTGL. Kamina was great and all, but he didn't take down a Ganmen with his bare punches!
Genome was so manly that he didn't lose his attitude even when he was reduced to a talking head in a jar. And in the final battle he sacrificed himself again for the sake of his comrades. If this is not manly, badass and cool I don't know what GAR is anymore. I want an OVA about young Genome's battles against the Anti-Spirals!

This was the main argument in Lord Genome vs. Kamina.
Though they both shared the badass attitude until both of their deaths, Genome was more of the manly beast who was a beastly man, what with his manly beast-strength and had sacrificed himself in Dai Gurren Dan style as a beastly man, but Kamina was the charismatic leader, able to inspire people around him to man up and become more GAR themselves, so he was quite literally leaking GARness.

Also, the first time Simon drillinated him wouldn't count as a sacrifice, so he never really sacrificed himself "again".
And Kamina came back to knock their asses back into reality as well, remember?

[SinsI]

I think the biggest mistake of this tournament is pitting one character against the other - it really encourages hate-voting. 4 or 5 characters in each round + "against all" choice would have given each of the voters a decent candidate and thus greatly reduced the impact of hate-voters.
It would also speed up the tournament - a very, very good thing as lots of voters have become bored with it already.

[Malintex_Terek]

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

And I see that you're not even putting the fact that the first Kamina - Aspergil[lius] - Coach round had over 1500 votes into consideration.

Which was a product of the day long sticky that brought in a lot of people who normally don't vote. It's been like this with SaiMoe, too - a large portion of /a/ participates in SaiGar but not every single person. The sticky caused record turnout.

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

It's obvious that the number of votes matters little, as it's based almost entirely on chance, as proxies often would only need 100 or so votes to win (of course, when a character would win by such a larger margin (Kamina - Cornelia), then the proxy does little to skew results.

If there was a proxy match, someone would cast a large number of ballots to overcome that chance and put someone into a safe-zone; one hundred votes isn't enough, especially with totals as lopsided as the one during the Shark/Kino match. The cheater would have to cast two hundred or three hundred at least to be 99% sure a candidate would win, and we're not seeing votes in those ranges. Genome beat Kamina by a 7% margin, a decent standard for victory. Do you honestly think that if the cheater had wanted Genome to win, he/she would risk defeat by casting only 7%'s worth of votes? Without knowing what Kamina had now and knowing what he had before? Lord Genome would have needed votes in the upper hundreds for me to call this match fraudulent; someone expecting high turnout for Kamina and casting a safety net of votes to ensure a solid win.

If someone was truly in command of cheating mechanisms, we should be seeing turnout around that of the A. Niger match for a single character contrasted with small vote totals for other characters. That's not the case right now, they're rather even.

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

So you've accepted one proxy match and that makes you a good person?
A good amount of the important matches in more recent rounds have been affected by outside sources, and a good deal of the users who are participating have accepted easily. Right now, this isn't denial of the Lord Genome's win, but just the fact that some are trying to state that it was entirely fair and not due at all to proxies or troll votes, as I had suspected that events would develop in this fashion before the match had even started.

Accepting the Kittan/Jojo battle shows I'm less of a butt-hurt loser. Frankly, this tournament has always been about "GAR" to me so even if the results aren't to my liking, so long as the character could be conceivably considered "very manly" all around I'd be cool with it. It seems you're looking past that and whining about cheating, even in matches were there isn't any evidence thereof.

Back last year I was less intolerant of cheating because all the tournament candidates were of such stellar quality, but it's more of a salient issue this year because of the troll candidates being so numerous. Aside from Rena, though, there are no more of those candidates left, so people should be focusing back toward the GAR and be praising the epic close matches or the one sided slaughters with great enthusiasm rather than go "LOL MY FAVOURITE CHARACTER DIDN'T WIN SAIPROXY FAILS".

I'm not going to even touch why I think Kamina isn't manly anymore, some people think he is GAR while acknowledging that Lord Genome is also bursting with manliness, it should be a win-win situation either way (for those people). There's no room to complain regarding this if manliness remains the central theme rather than favouratism. Take heed, I've had to be reminded of this at least once in this topic too.


The whole incident reminds me strongly of Onizuka v. Archer, which I denounced at first but accepted within minutes of the result since Onizuka was pretty bloody GAR as well, so even though Archer lost, his loss ensured the stability of the tournament and was an admirable (though dubiously honorable) defeat. Failing with style was always a trademark of his.

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

Though they both shared the badass attitude until both of their deaths, Genome was more of the manly beast who was a beastly man, what with his manly beast-strength and had sacrificed himself in Dai Gurren Dan style as a beastly man, but Kamina was the charismatic leader, able to inspire people around him to man up and become more GAR themselves, so he was quite literally leaking GARness.

Think what you will, but one trait does not make a character "GAR". It is redundant to equate Gar solely with charisma, there must be more dimensions to it, so by this interpretation Kamina is NOT "Gar" because he has nothing beyond the personality.

Incidentally speaking, I never really found Kamina charismatic except episode eight, for the most part he was saying quirky (but dumb) things very loudly, much like Issac Dian and Franky. He's really the kind of character one can look back at with nostalgia and get really worked up about.

Originally Posted by qtipbrit92

And Kamina came back to knock their asses back into reality as well, remember?

Kamina never did anything directly, he just helped Simon remember who he was. And I should also point out the dream Kamina had none of the prudish attitude the real one had, it was a nostalgic phantom conjured from how Simon lovingly looked back at his brother - all the positives, none of the negatives.

[Ithekro]

Assuming there is a Saigar next year, the results will be very interesting given current voting trends. Would GL be within the eligible time brackets to be in the running for 2009?

I do wonder if or how the format will change given what this tournament has been like.