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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 19 Rating
Perfect 10 89 40.45%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 61 27.73%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 40 18.18%
7 out of 10 : Good 20 9.09%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 1.36%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 2 0.91%
4 out of 10 : Poor 3 1.36%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.45%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.45%
Voters: 220. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-02-22, 07:12   Link #701
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
It is basically as Paranoia833 said. A decent robot show with references to the current political situation that'd boost plastic kit sales.
How's it refer to the current political situation? You mean how most conflicts exist as today? The absense of large scale warfare?
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Old 2008-02-22, 07:24   Link #702
highvision
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
How's it refer to the current political situation? You mean how most conflicts exist as today? The absense of large scale warfare?
Absence of large scale warfare, relationships between large blocs, energy crisis, the global war on terror; these are pretty much the only things I can name at the top of my head at this moment. The creators probably wanted to put a spin on it by making the main characters kind of like terrorists but with a noble cause.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 06294086 View Post
In the UC gundam series, I read somewhere that the federation and Zeon side each has tens of thousands of MSes...
Different universes have different reasons for the number of MS's available.

Quote:
Speaking about the "E-carbon" material used in manufacturing the gundams, I remembered reading something about "carbon nanotubes" which basically are
materials made from carbon where its molecule configuration is altered , making them much more harder than diamond, stronger than steel, extremely pliable and
weights much less than steel...

I guess this "E-carbon" (Enhanced carbon ?) are some sort of the enhanced version of this material

300 years from now, better version(s) of this kind of material should not be that difficult to get with low price with the advancement in technology, if the current technology already managed to produce such materials eventhough the cost is high...


Eventhough the 3 power blocks didn't have GN drives at that time, why don't
they use such strong material for their MSes ? It will make them much much
more stronger...
From what SoldierofDarkness said, the world was recovering from an economic collapse due to drying up of fossil fuels and most of the resources went to the space elevators. According to wikipedia (take it with a grain of salt) E-carbon is supposedly very new in the 00 universe so that might explain why theres very little of it.

Quote:
Anyhow, Since the 3 power blocks finally got the MS drives, technology won't become a problem anymore...
Yup, now they don't have to fight the Gundams with slingshots anymore.
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Old 2008-02-22, 08:13   Link #703
06294086
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highvision View Post
Absence of large scale warfare, relationships between large blocs, energy crisis, the global war on terror; these are pretty much the only things I can name at the top of my head at this moment. The creators probably wanted to put a spin on it by making the main characters kind of like terrorists but with a noble cause.



Different universes have different reasons for the number of MS's available.



From what SoldierofDarkness said, the world was recovering from an economic collapse due to drying up of fossil fuels and most of the resources went to the space elevators. According to wikipedia (take it with a grain of salt) E-carbon is supposedly very new in the 00 universe so that might explain why theres very little of it.


Yup, now they don't have to fight the Gundams with slingshots anymore.
Actually the number of tens of thousands of MSes that I quoted are mostly consists of GMs and Zakus which basically are mass production mobile suits.

Since GMs and Zakus are practically "cannon fodders", I guess it pretty much
likely comparing between bows and guns. Even in other series, gundam-level
MSes are very small in numbers...

Since many of the resources went to the space elevators and have been
"dried out" during the 300 years, the 3 power blocks might have enough technology to produce some sort of the inferior version of E-carbon but simply don't have enough money and resources..
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Old 2008-02-22, 09:09   Link #704
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
How's it refer to the current political situation? You mean how most conflicts exist as today? The absense of large scale warfare?
Here ya have:

Quote:
Originally Posted by highvision View Post
Absence of large scale warfare, relationships between large blocs, energy crisis, the global war on terror; these are pretty much the only things I can name at the top of my head at this moment. The creators probably wanted to put a spin on it by making the main characters kind of like terrorists but with a noble cause.
highvision pretty much answered it the way I would.

And, of course, as it is a sceince-fictional vision of our world in the future, there are quite a few differences, but only a true ignorant or just plain idiot would not recognize the analogies.
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Old 2008-02-22, 09:36   Link #705
4Tran
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Originally Posted by 06294086
Each of the power block consists of countries and their resources should be enough to at least build tens of thousands MASS-PRODUCTION type MS.
True. Admittedly, minimalism is common to just about all Gundam shows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness
In previous episodes the Union president noted that the economy of the country was just recovering. We know that when fossil fuels dried up all of the economies collapsed with the remaining resources routed to building the solar generators and they were completed about 10 years ago.
The economy of the Union had been recovering for ten years. Besides, even an economy in recession is fully capable of building large military forces provided it had the infrastructural capacity. Even in a weakened state, the economy of the Union is probably many times that of the U.S. circa 2007.

Quote:
Originally Posted by highvision
Considering that the number of suits lost against the Gundams are seen as major blows to the 3 blocs, a couple thousand suits would already be pushing the boundary of reality in the 00 universe. The way I see it, MS's are the jet-fighters of the future (but being used as front-line soldiers).
Why? Stuff like Hellions can be owned and maintained by a bunch of terrorists, so why shouldn't full-blown superpowers be able to have hordes of them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by highvisions
None of the power blocs on Earth have access to this technology so a Gundam's worth is equal to maybe a couple hundred thousand MS's (probably more).
While the technology of the Gundams is extremely valuable, in terms of combat capability, one is only worth a couple dozen of the newer mobile suits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84
Considering how a terrorist group was able to perform seven simaluteous attacks in seven different locations all across the globe, and then have that same group thoroughly defeated less than a week later after apparently one member was caught hastily fleeing the scene of a bombing, I'd say the world would be a fairly demilitarized and complacent place. Spines would probably be reserved for certain flying aces, not politicians who are expected to keep the peace.
Given the quality of episode 8, I don't think that it works as an argument for any thing. Besides, if the world were so undermilitarized, then what would be the pressing need for Celestial Being to act in the first place?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84
And to whomever mentioned the lack of nukes, I think episodes 14 and 15 established that the World's stockpile of Weapons Grade nuclear material was being stored at the facility they Factions used as bait.
Why did the world decide to disarm? Have they abandoned nuclear power altogether? These is yet another example of how interesting the Gundam 00 universe would be to actually explore. It's a real shame that the creators don't show any indication that they want to do so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84
I guess it's a case of being the wrong target audience. To be honest I just think of the show as "That show where the writers attempt to introduce young Japanese kids to the bare-bones basics of international politics but mostly just tell a boy-meets-robot story" and watch it for the amusement value.
Ah... But the creators are the ones who decided to make their story about international politics and inserting real-world issues, and so they're stuck with the consequences of doing so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 06294086
In the UC gundam series, I read somewhere that the federation and Zeon side each has tens of thousands of MSes...
That'd make sense, but bear in mind that many of the larger battles in Mobile Suit Gundam only had a couple of hundred mobile suits per side.
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Old 2008-02-22, 10:03   Link #706
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Given the quality of episode 8, I don't think that it works as an argument for any thing. Besides, if the world were so undermilitarized, then what would be the pressing need for Celestial Being to act in the first place?
The same reason for CB to do what they do even though the world powers are not currently at war; CB is an organisation that was created 200 years ago, and thus its existence and purpose has nothing to do with 00's current events.

Think about it this way; if we have a CB-like organisation that was created in the 1800's, do you think that organization's original goal would have anything to do with our year 2000 politics?

CB didn't act because of any "pressing need". They acted on a time schedule of their own choosing, not because of any recent events that forced their hand. What they truly want is a mystery, but whatever it is it has nothing to do with the level of militarization.

****
From that perspective, I believe the reason the relatively low losses suffered by the world powers compared to UC counterparts and its greater effects, is also based on recent events. Being not at war meant domestic and civil issues holds back any insane military spending, or at least the money spent needs to be hidden. Unlike UC, a large portion of each county's budget had to be spent on its people, because the populous wouldn't be willing to spend money on the military unless they think they are in danger of dying. (Saji and Louise's daily lives show exactly how carefree the average civilian were, and thus how little they care about national security.)

In that same vein of argument, this also explain why losing 85 mobilesuits was a big deal; 85 mobilesuits can be replaced, but 85 coffins of dead pilots is bad PR. Further, this was from a deliberate military attack against a non-hostile group (at the time) with the intent of performing an act of THEFT. The attempted Gundam-jack was not for the purpose of defending one's people, but thirst for power. It is something so embarrassing that the world powers had to hide their intent from their own people by calling it a "military exercise".

Losing 85 mobilesuits in a war defending your people's rights to live is one thing. Losing 85 mobilesults in a failed rubbery attempt against people who were fighting terrorists is another.

If the population truly believe CB is a threat to their lives, losses of thousands against CB would be accepted.
Ironically, the Throne did exactly what was needed to make the population feel fear. CB's actions up to this point has been undone, and now the World Powers would have the mandate to spend as much money and loses as many soldiers as it take to destroy the Gundams.
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Old 2008-02-22, 10:15   Link #707
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Think about it this way; if we have a CB-like organisation that was created in the 1800's, do you think that organization's original goal would have anything to do with our year 2000 politics?
Yes. Organizations change greatly over time, and they either adapt to new circumstances, or they become irrelevant and lose adherents.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
CB didn't act because of any "pressing need". They acted on a time schedule of their own choosing, not because of any recent events that forced their hand. What they truly want is a mystery, but whatever it is it has nothing to do with the level of militarization.
Are you trying to argue that there is some sort of pressing need, or that one isn't necessary?

If it's the latter, then why would they choose to act when they did? While the brass of Celestial Being (whoever they may be) may have wanted to act for all sorts of reasons, the crew of Ptolemaios seem to be true believers, so they should know that there's no pressing need for action.
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Old 2008-02-22, 10:34   Link #708
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
If it's the latter, then why would they choose to act when they did? While the brass of Celestial Being (whoever they may be) may have wanted to act for all sorts of reasons, the crew of Ptolemaios seem to be true believers, so they should know that there's no pressing need for action.
CB had its own goals, which was unrelated to militarization because whatever reason they first came to be has nothing to do with recent events of 00. The Gundam pilots themselves have nothing to do with levels of militarizations either, because they joined up due to personal tragedies.

Lockon joined up because of a terrorist attack that changed his life. Setsuna joined up because his homeland's constant small-scale warfare messed up everything. Allelujah joined up because he was an abandoned experiment. None of these three joined because of any major military action. It isn't some world-war that made these individuals who they are, but small-scale conflicts that happen everyday. We are talking about conflicts that happen so regularly the media is barely interested.

These three Gundam Meisters are not here to stop a world war, so the presence of a world-war isn't required. They are here to fight their personal demons, which they see in every intervention.

I guess what I am trying to say, is that the fact the 00 world isn't very militarized doesn't mean CB doesn't have a reason to act.
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Old 2008-02-22, 11:04   Link #709
demon_god04
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The sad thing is that the power blocs had never treated Celestial Being as a serious opponent. If they had, the goal of their attacks would have been to destroy the Gundams, not to capture them. To my mind, it isn't acceptable to go from such a lackadaisical attitude to one of abject defeat.

The only reason that a couple dozen Mobile Suit losses are considered significant is because the power blocs hadn't seen any heavy fighting in a long time. However, the fact that even two-bit terrorist organizations could field decent numbers of mobile suits precludes them from being overly expensive. In the real world, terrorists can't even afford to purchase or maintain tanks or aircraft, so their expense should be at best comparable to much older designs.
It's not that the three power blocks did not take Celestial Being, but rather because of the overwhelming technological superiority of the gundams are worth more to the power blocs then their destrution.

While I agree that it's pushing it when two bit terrorist organizations could field mobile suits, I just can't imagine the development and unit costs for say the Union Flag could be substantually cheaper then the F-22. If the cost of a mobile suit is comparable to the F-22's $137.5 million I can see why losing 85 in a single operation would be a huge blow, aside from the PR debacle that the whole incident was as mentioned by Vallen Chaos Valiant. As you said though, it doesn't look like the three power blocs have seen much heavy fighting, perhaps military spending just wasn't a priority as opposed to stabilizing their economy. There was also the issue of the treaty that was mentioned at the begining of the series that limits the military strength of the three powers, which would be a factor too.
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Old 2008-02-22, 11:23   Link #710
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Originally Posted by demon_god04 View Post
It's not that the three power blocks did not take Celestial Being, but rather because of the overwhelming technological superiority of the gundams are worth more to the power blocs then their destrution.

While I agree that it's pushing it when two bit terrorist organizations could field mobile suits, I just can't imagine the development and unit costs for say the Union Flag could be substantually cheaper then the F-22. As you said though, it doesn't look like the three power blocs have seen much heavy fighting, perhaps military spending just wasn't a priority as opposed to stabilizing their economy. There was also the issue of the treaty that was mentioned at the begining of the series that limits the military strength of the three powers, which would be a factor too.
That's right, but remember that treaty or pact or whatever they be are simply "diplomatic tactics"

No country leader in this world will just sit down and gnaw his/her fingers reading surveilance reports about his/her country's rivals/enemies. They will secretly build their own forces whether it's peaceful time or not...

I think that wartime or not, the real difference will be in how much real combat experience that their forces have...
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Old 2008-02-22, 11:49   Link #711
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
These three Gundam Meisters are not here to stop a world war, so the presence of a world-war isn't required. They are here to fight their personal demons, which they see in every intervention.

I guess what I am trying to say, is that the fact the 00 world isn't very militarized doesn't mean CB doesn't have a reason to act.
This is sort of sideways from my own point. I'm not trying to argue that a world war or anything like that is necessary to give the Celestial Being rank and file cause for their activity. Instead, I'm saying that an under-militarized world is incongruent with the image of a world situation so replete with war that Celestial Being's actions can generate symapathy even from the citizens of the targetted countries. Such a world is also a far cry from the "brink of warfare" kind of scenario hinted at by the narration.

The only way to even come close to resolve this incongruity would be for the Celestial Being rank and file to constantly question why they're bothering to do all of this while the world is so peaceful.

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Originally Posted by demon_god04
It's not that the three power blocks did not take Celestial Being, but rather because of the overwhelming technological superiority of the gundams are worth more to the power blocs then their destrution.
This is only true to a point; and that point should come somewhere before considering abject surrender.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demon_god04
While I agree that it's pushing it when two bit terrorist organizations could field mobile suits, I just can't imagine the development and unit costs for say the Union Flag could be substantually cheaper then the F-22.
A couple of points here: the majority of the Union military seems to still be equipped with Realdos, and they appear to be dirt cheap. The main cost for the F-22 is (as with all modern aircraft) the cost of its avionics. As long as these aren't much more advanced than that of the Realdos, the Flags shouldn't be an order of magnitude more expensive. By way of comparison, the F-22 is only 40-50% more expensive than new F-15Es.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demon_god04
As you said though, it doesn't look like the three power blocs have seen much heavy fighting, perhaps military spending just wasn't a priority as opposed to stabilizing their economy.
This is partially true, but if there is a real military threat, such spending can easily be increased, and each bloc would soon be fielding tens of thousands of mobile suits.

As another comparison, the U.S. fielded a peacetime force of around 15000 AFVs with many thousands in its inventory, while simultaneously maintaining over 5000 combat aircraft. The blocs don't have any need for such a diverse inventory, and they're all much wealthier than the current U.S., so their numbers of mobile suits should be at least be comparable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demon_god04
There was also the issue of the treaty that was mentioned at the begining of the series that limits the military strength of the three powers, which would be a factor too.
As far as we know, the only arms limitation treaty that's in play just limits the number of mobile suits that can be stationed at one's elevator, so it shouldn't affect the size of the militaries in general.
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Old 2008-02-22, 12:27   Link #712
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As another comparison, the U.S. fielded a peacetime force of around 15000 AFVs with many thousands in its inventory, while simultaneously maintaining over 5000 combat aircraft. The blocs don't have any need for such a diverse inventory, and they're all much wealthier than the current U.S., so their numbers of mobile suits should be at least be comparable.
Well I suppose we have to work with what the 00 universe offers.

Because frankly, all together they were able to bring up about 852 units with no doubt the majority by the Union and the HRL. So perhaps their logistics aren't capable of fielding too many suits. I mean doesn't it cost the US millions of dollars to mobilize its forces?

If China, Russia, India, Europe, and the US conducted a military exercise the number of units participating should easily be in the thousands.

Quote:
A couple of points here: the majority of the Union military seems to still be equipped with Realdos, and they appear to be dirt cheap. The main cost for the F-22 is (as with all modern aircraft) the cost of its avionics. As long as these aren't much more advanced than that of the Realdos, the Flags shouldn't be an order of magnitude more expensive. By way of comparison, the F-22 is only 40-50% more expensive than new F-15Es.
Well they are the mainstay force of the Union army. Though I'm pretty sure a variable vehicle is much more costly to build. While the Realdo can transform it can only do so with a groundcrew. The Flag on the other hand can do it without any outside assistance which IMO shows a major technological advantage over that unit.

In regards to the Enact, it's suppose to be a huge jump over the Hellion and the brass noted that they spent quite a hefty amount on developing that unit.
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Old 2008-02-22, 12:44   Link #713
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Given the quality of episode 8, I don't think that it works as an argument for any thing. Besides, if the world were so undermilitarized, then what would be the pressing need for Celestial Being to act in the first place?
I've been asking that since the beginning. There's no apparent need for what Celestial Being is doing, it's members don't seem to ever question whether it's necessary, and it's not like all of it's members have personal tragedies. It could be just another job to them, and a very comfortable and perky one at that. Add in Miss Wang's statement of simply wanting the world to change, and you've got a group that seems to justify it's actions solely on the basis that they'll all probably pay with their lives. Though some members don't seem to appreciate that fact...

Celestial Being is said to not be interested in the moral high ground, that their beliefs and their mission takes priorty over everything, but they're not consistently portrayed as such. Certainly with the last four or five episodes, the badguys and the "blight" of the Meisters have been on the center stage, cheering for them has become easier while no one, not even those who oppose them like Graham or Sergei, ever argues against what Celestial Being is doing. At best, I think Saji said their methods would lead to chaos and that was only at the start of the show.

I'm still reeling from Allejuah's big episode. A coming of age cemerony christened with the holocaust of hundreds of people when an information leak and even blackmail are on the table? Hallejuah won the arguement, but that didn't mean he was right, and they even had drinks at the end to show Allejuah as "reconciled" and "of age". No perspective on whether it was necessary or not. Simply that euthanisa is okay if you're not personally in a position to do anything other than nothing.

Quote:
Why did the world decide to disarm? Have they abandoned nuclear power altogether? These is yet another example of how interesting the Gundam 00 universe would be to actually explore. It's a real shame that the creators don't show any indication that they want to do so.
I believe the HRL Chair refered to the dump as a relic of the old world. I'd assume the creation of the Solar Array and the nature of it's construction is what caused the disarmament (fragile and symbolic of the mutual need the blocs have of one another), although I don't if that applies to nuclear energy.

There won't ever be a large scale conflict, because losing the array is something that must absolutely not happen. Unless of course magical mecha from the sky appear with an exotic, plentiful, and powerful form of energy generation that is.

It may be that Celestial Being had ran out of time. "The Plan" was probably not without it's setbacks (Jupiter?), the world was beginning to catch up to them technologically, and no matter how many or how smart the scientists, there was simply no way they could maintain the edge they had.

I will laugh if the reason why any of this happened is because ten generations committed themselves to a dream that was being realised without them.

Quote:
Ah... But the creators are the ones who decided to make their story about international politics and inserting real-world issues, and so they're stuck with the consequences of doing so.
That's what the mecha and Sumeragi are for.

Last edited by Wesley84; 2008-02-22 at 12:57.
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Old 2008-02-22, 13:58   Link #714
Paranoia833
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
This is sort of sideways from my own point. I'm not trying to argue that a world war or anything like that is necessary to give the Celestial Being rank and file cause for their activity. Instead, I'm saying that an under-militarized world is incongruent with the image of a world situation so replete with war that Celestial Being's actions can generate symapathy even from the citizens of the targetted countries. Such a world is also a far cry from the "brink of warfare" kind of scenario hinted at by the narration.
Given that up until the Tarabia incident the Meisters seemed to be intervening chiefly in Africa, the Middle-East and other areas outside the power-blocks I can imagine CB generating positive public opinion among certain sections of the first world.

Of course we really only get to see the Union (or more specifically Japan's) publics opinion of CB (I imagine the AEU and HRL media would be much less inclined to portray them in any kind of positive light*) and up until the Thrones attacks the Union is probably the power that's suffered least from CB interventions, with a rebellious client state being the only known asset to come under direct attack.

But yeah the world is ludicrously under militarised and as THAT animeblog pointed out it seems artillery no longer exists in the 00 world in any shape or form. Fun times.


*Although personally I doubt CBs leadership are any more concerned with public opinion than their operatives, they've got a checkpoint list and their sticking to it. Come to think of it that makes the 'surrender' thing even more idiotic. CB have never once offered demands or terms or shown any willingness to open up contact with the superpowers/UN. There's no guarentee that even if a nation unilaterally disarmed itself that the Thrones would stop attacking. What would CB (or the mysterious alter-CB behind the Thrones) even consider to be disarmament anyway? Scrapping your mobile suits? Dismissing your infantry? Would an armed police force be considered an army? What about the militias that would inevitably spring up in the absence of a formal military? It's amusing to speculate but the more you tug at it the sillier it gets to the point that I have to keep reminding myself it's just a childrens show and laugh it off to keep my enjoyment of it.
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Old 2008-02-22, 14:20   Link #715
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post

And to whomever mentioned the lack of nukes, I think episodes 14 and 15 established that the World's stockpile of Weapons Grade nuclear material was being stored at the facility they Factions used as bait.

That's right. The World has outgrown the concept of MAD, and now uses the new MAR (Mutually Assured Ruination) system to keep the peace.

Kind of makes Celestial Being look petty doesn't it?

Wasnt that place just a nuclear waste storage facility? Even if it housed old weapons grade material that doesnt mean the world gave up nuclear weapons, thats just not going to ever happen, even without the need for nuclear power, there will always be a need for someone to keep at least some nuclear weapons around.
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Old 2008-02-22, 14:39   Link #716
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Wasnt that place just a nuclear waste storage facility? Even if it housed old weapons grade material that doesnt mean the world gave up nuclear weapons, thats just not going to ever happen, even without the need for nuclear power, there will always be a need for someone to keep at least some nuclear weapons around.
100% AGREE !

It's human's natural instinct to compete and fight and I don't think it will ever changed no matter how far in the future.

That's why human's technology develop rapidly and in fact even so many of the
"non-military" technologies today such as the Internet was developed as a military project.

As long has human exist, it is impossible to eliminate wars completely because it's the same as denying human's basic instinct to compete and to survive.

What can be done is not to eliminate war completely, but how to have wars as little as possible !
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Old 2008-02-22, 15:57   Link #717
4Tran
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness
Well I suppose we have to work with what the 00 universe offers.
Two points here:
1. While it seems as if Gundam 00 is going for the minimalist we don't really know if that's the case.
2. I'm pointing out that it wouldn't make sense for such an approach to be used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness
Because frankly, all together they were able to bring up about 852 units with no doubt the majority by the Union and the HRL. So perhaps their logistics aren't capable of fielding too many suits. I mean doesn't it cost the US millions of dollars to mobilize its forces?
Unless the logistical train was under constant enemy attack, it would probably be commensurate relative to the size of the force it's trying to support. Since we know that mobile suits are easy to maintain and supply, there's no reason to think that logistics are much of a constraint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness
Well they are the mainstay force of the Union army. Though I'm pretty sure a variable vehicle is much more costly to build.
Mobile suits like Hellions are as ubiquitous as RPGs, so there's no need to think that it's all that expensive to construct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness
In regards to the Enact, it's suppose to be a huge jump over the Hellion and the brass noted that they spent quite a hefty amount on developing that unit.
The development cost of a weapons system isn't always the same relative to the unit cost. Using my previous example, the F-22's development was much more costly than that of the F-15, but new models of each fighter are fairly close in price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84
Celestial Being is said to not be interested in the moral high ground, that their beliefs and their mission takes priorty over everything, but they're not consistently portrayed as such.
Who said that they weren't interested in the moral high ground? The crew of Ptolemaios is absolutely convinced that they're not only in the right, but that what they're doing is the only solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84
I'm still reeling from Allejuah's big episode. A coming of age cemerony christened with the holocaust of hundreds of people when an information leak and even blackmail are on the table? Hallejuah won the arguement, but that didn't mean he was right, and they even had drinks at the end to show Allejuah as "reconciled" and "of age". No perspective on whether it was necessary or not. Simply that euthanisa is okay if you're not personally in a position to do anything other than nothing.
This was easily the most bizarre of the "interventions", and I'm not sure what the creators were thinking when they came up with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoia833
Given that up until the Tarabia incident the Meisters seemed to be intervening chiefly in Africa, the Middle-East and other areas outside the power-blocks I can imagine CB generating positive public opinion among certain sections of the first world.
Their very first attack was at the AEU elevator, and the third attack was in HRL territory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoia833
But yeah the world is ludicrously under militarised and as THAT animeblog pointed out it seems artillery no longer exists in the 00 world in any shape or form. Fun times.
Mobile suits seem as common as dirt, so I'm not sure why the 2307 CE world should be considered under militarized. Artillery, and other support arms seem to have been supplanted by mobile suits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Icehawk
Wasnt that place just a nuclear waste storage facility? Even if it housed old weapons grade material that doesnt mean the world gave up nuclear weapons, thats just not going to ever happen, even without the need for nuclear power, there will always be a need for someone to keep at least some nuclear weapons around.
You're correct. Although that sort of begs the question of why nuclear power and nuclear weapons hadn't been mentioned until they talked about that facility.
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Old 2008-02-22, 16:11   Link #718
Dean_the_Young
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoia833 View Post
Given that up until the Tarabia incident the Meisters seemed to be intervening chiefly in Africa, the Middle-East and other areas outside the power-blocks I can imagine CB generating positive public opinion among certain sections of the first world.

Of course we really only get to see the Union (or more specifically Japan's) publics opinion of CB (I imagine the AEU and HRL media would be much less inclined to portray them in any kind of positive light*) and up until the Thrones attacks the Union is probably the power that's suffered least from CB interventions, with a rebellious client state being the only known asset to come under direct attack.
This is about 1/3 true: while the Union and AEU took more of a "wait and see" approach to CB, not least because they were rarely directly targeted (drug farms and blood diamond mines? pass), the HRL declared war on CB from about episode 3, after CB annihalted a HRL base with hundreds of casualities. For a comparison, think of the US response if someone wiped out Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. After declaring war, the HRL has acted as "leader" of the three powers in the anti-CB agenda.

Quote:
But yeah the world is ludicrously under militarised and as THAT animeblog pointed out it seems artillery no longer exists in the 00 world in any shape or form. Fun times.
? Sure it exists, they were in the HRL introductory montage clip in the first episodes. More relevantly, they exist as the Teiren-cannons and the Ground-flags we saw in 15.
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Old 2008-02-22, 17:24   Link #719
Wesley84
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Who said that they weren't interested in the moral high ground? The crew of Ptolemaios is absolutely convinced that they're not only in the right, but that what they're doing is the only solution.
Tieria did in so many words. Some of the members may be squeamish about some of the consenquences of their actions, but overall no one seems concerned if even individual missions are right or wrong, nevermind their overall "mission". They may sometimes have the high ground de facto, but it's supposed to be clear that they're not interested in PR or being "the good guys".

Good, bad, they're the guys with the Gundams.

And episode 15 was almost completely about artillery raining Hell on the Gundams non-stop. There's no way you could miss it. More than artillery, I was wondering where the strategic bomberes were at? Sending MSes to drop a few bombs every now and then compared to a big plane dropping dozens of them at a time...

Not to mention C-130 Gunships or a MS equivalient.
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Old 2008-02-22, 18:33   Link #720
Icehawk
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Canada
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post

You're correct. Although that sort of begs the question of why nuclear power and nuclear weapons hadn't been mentioned until they talked about that facility.

I figure its because there hasnt been any case where nuclear weapons were even necessary to be used. The only operation I could think of that might have merited nukes was the big one seen in ep 15 but even then, the goal was to overwhelm and capture the gundams not destroy them, with the lack of precision targeting due to GN particle interference pinpoint tactical nuclear strikes wouldnt really be possible or wise if there goal is simply to contain and capture.
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