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Old 2008-02-19, 07:19   Link #41
golthin
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Originally Posted by DanielSong39 View Post
It was Shin who railroaded Jun into dating Hiromi and Jun complied. It was time for Shin to keep his end of the bargain.

Objectively speaking Shin comes closer to blackmailing Jun than the other way around.
Shin never agreed to Jun's terms, it was Jun who took his bluff and ran with it! I really don't remember Shin agreeing ever. Jun went and asked Hiromi out and once she was trapped by her lie he had Shin hooked. Now Shin has two choices, Allow Jun to break up with Hiromi and make her suffer (he still believes that Hiromi really loves Jun and she will suffer if he breaks up with her). The other choice is to go out with Noe at the request of her brother, but he can't bring himself to do it for that reason. so has to talk himself into believing he likes Noe, which is not really that hard because she is a nice girl. That is how much he loves hiromi, one of those Anime sacrifice yourself for the one you love. So no, Shin is not even close to blackmailing Jun. amazing what some people think.
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Old 2008-02-19, 10:55   Link #42
greyhawk
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#Jun asked Shin to be serious about Noe and go out with her, which was, admittedly, very blunt of him. But the moment everything started to go wrong is when Shin brought forward the proposal. It was very unlikely that Jun would step back here, we all know what his personality is like, plus he must have prepared himself to agree to any of Jun's conditions for her sister's sake. Then Jun rode off, leaving Shin in total amazement. Was there any kind of contract signed? No, it was just a gentleman's agreement. Jun didn't need to know whether Shin agreed to it, after all he was the one who came up with it, plus what kind of a man that doesn't have the bravery to do what he dares others to? So stop saying he ran away with it, OK? Then what? Like tons of opportunity for both Shin and Hiromi to tell Jun the joke had to end. But instead they just played along with it. Hiromi could always apologize and tell him she'd said it out of confusion just to shoo Tomoyo away or sth along those lines.
What's more:
+Jun did it for his sister. He knew about her feelings, so he'd agree to such a condition-->Now Noe's happy. (If there's anything you can call sacrifice, this would be it)
-Why did Shin do it? He was a clueless (and that's not an excuse) idiot who never thought it through.-->Now Hiromi's screwed up.
+Hiromi can break up with Jun any day without being heart-broken.
-After lying to himself, Shin went on to deceive Noe. Lovely. Or should I say, self-centered.
P.S: After Jun walked Hiromi home, she did think about him for a moment, this is probably a hint for future development. If everything works out for everybody in the end, then maybe Shin was not toying with Noe after all, and I'll be more than happy to forgive him for all his sins (ye I know I'm not God )
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Old 2008-02-19, 11:10   Link #43
golthin
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Originally Posted by greyhawk View Post
#Jun asked Shin to be serious about Noe and go out with her, which was, admittedly, very blunt of him. But the moment everything started to go wrong is when Shin brought forward the proposal. It was very unlikely that Jun would step back here, we all know what his personality is like, plus he must have prepared himself to agree to any of Jun's conditions for her sister's sake. Then Jun rode off, leaving Shin in total amazement. Was there any kind of contract signed? No, it was just a gentleman's agreement. Jun didn't need to know whether Shin agreed to it, after all he was the one who came up with it, plus what kind of a man that doesn't have the bravery to do what he dares others to? So stop saying he ran away with it, OK? Then what? Like tons of opportunity for both Shin and Hiromi to tell Jun the joke had to end. But instead they just played along with it. Hiromi could always apologize and tell him she'd said it out of confusion just to shoo Tomoyo away or sth along those lines.
What's more:
+Jun did it for his sister. He knew about her feelings, so he'd agree to such a condition-->Now Noe's happy. (If there's anything you can call sacrifice, this would be it)
-Why did Shin do it? He was a clueless (and that's not an excuse) idiot who never thought it through.-->Now Hiromi's screwed up.
+Hiromi can break up with Jun any day without being heart-broken.
-After lying to himself, Shin went on to deceive Noe. Lovely. Or should I say, self-centered.
P.S: After Jun walked Hiromi home, she did think about him for a moment, this is probably a hint for future development. If everything works out for everybody in the end, then maybe Shin was not toying with Noe after all, and I'll be more than happy to forgive him for all his sins (ye I know I'm not God )
I was not saying that Shin is blameless, oh no he has done so many terrible things, but everything he did was trying to help other and never without thinking for a moment that he was steping on others feelings. Jun is ruthless, he doesn't care who gets hurt as long as his sister is happy. Shin was unlucky that he got involved with Noe in the first place.

Maybe Jun just want Noe to grow up and he thinks that dating someone will help do that. Shin suffers from diarrhea of the Mouth, I grant that much. Still Jun took a bluff as a deal! Even shin told Jun that he never agreed to the deal(this is a fact, not my opinion, he told Jun this when he was stocking him in the rice field), but now he is stuck because if he doesn't do his part Jun break ups with Hiromi. I give 60% of the fault to Jun and 40% to shin!
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Old 2008-02-20, 14:35   Link #44
Manji Midou
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Originally Posted by golthin View Post
I was not saying that Shin is blameless, oh no he has done so many terrible things, but everything he did was trying to help other and never without thinking for a moment that he was steping on others feelings. Jun is ruthless, he doesn't care who gets hurt as long as his sister is happy. Shin was unlucky that he got involved with Noe in the first place.

Maybe Jun just want Noe to grow up and he thinks that dating someone will help do that. Shin suffers from diarrhea of the Mouth, I grant that much. Still Jun took a bluff as a deal! Even shin told Jun that he never agreed to the deal(this is a fact, not my opinion, he told Jun this when he was stocking him in the rice field), but now he is stuck because if he doesn't do his part Jun break ups with Hiromi. I give 60% of the fault to Jun and 40% to shin!
l'm amazed as to how you can put the blame on these two, yet give none to hiromi. a white lie is still a lie, hiromi's action is what caused all of this.
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Old 2008-02-20, 14:38   Link #45
golthin
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Originally Posted by Manji Midou View Post
l'm amazed as to how you can put the blame on these two, yet give none to hiromi. a white lie is still a lie, hiromi's action is what caused all of this.
No, hiromi is guilty of something else! I am talking about Shin getting stuck with the deal.
hiromi is guilty of lying and causing Shin to hook her with Jun. Shin and Jun are guilty of getting involved with this deal of forced dating.
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Old 2008-02-20, 14:41   Link #46
Kaoru Chujo
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I like all the characters in this show. Including Jun. And including Hiromi. Jun is a dangerous guy, all right, but he is acting in his sister's interest, and hasn't done anything to Hiromi except take her out to a movie. Touching her cheek/lips reminded me of his scene with Noe and seemed to me a symbol of Hiromi potentially getting a place in his heart, as well as showing his ability to turn on the charm when he thinks it's needed.

And I think Hiromi is being unfairly criticized. What was she supposed to do? Go to Shin at the beginning of the show and say: "I can see you have feelings for me, but I have to tell that your father slept with my mother and I'm probably your sister." It took a lot of heartache before she lost control and told him that, and she felt terrible afterwards.

I still think Hiromi wasn't lying when she said she had feelings for "#4." Not like she has feelings for Shin, but she didn't make it up out of nothing. She even told Shin the details of how she came to like Jun.

I rewatched the ep where the bargain was made and felt sorry for Shin. He told Jun that you can't toy with people this way, and made a bitter joke about a trade. But single-minded Jun took the suggestion and ran with it. Shin was so surprised he couldn't get it together to say: "Whoa!"

Jun and Noe are actually quite similar. Dangerous to be around: they don't seem to have the normal social limits. You never know what they might do. But neither has done anything bad so far, in my opinion. Still, being with either of them is like riding a tiger.

Either Shin or Hiromi could call a halt to this, but Shin I guess still thinks Hiromi wants it (despite her telling him he was a busybody to arrange it). And Hiromi could easily say -- as I think she might have been about to when Jun dropped her off -- that their being together doesn't work. But she doesn't, perhaps because she actually likes being with Jun. There's no question that he's "cool" in both senses. He makes the other males in the show look like real wimps.
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Old 2008-02-21, 03:42   Link #47
greyhawk
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Originally Posted by Manji Midou View Post
l'm amazed as to how you can put the blame on these two, yet give none to hiromi. a white lie is still a lie, hiromi's action is what caused all of this.
Depends. Maybe she was born a stubborn girl, or maybe it was because of her situation *cough* (such a big deal, or so I've heard). They're all to blame. This is what I love about this show, everybody is so flawed that it's up to you to decide who's your favorite character.
But deceiving each other is no way to build up a relationship, we need someone to put a stop to all this joke. But some part of me still wants to see just what they're gonna do. What does Jun have in store for Hiromi, and what is Shinichiro gonna do about her while trying not to hurt Noe? When is Nobuse going to accept the fact he and Aiko were never meant to be?... I want to see ep08 so badly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo
I still think Hiromi wasn't lying when she said she had feelings for "#4." Not like she has feelings for Shin, but she didn't make it up out of nothing. She even told Shin the details of how she came to like Jun...Either Shin or Hiromi could call a halt to this, but Shin I guess still thinks Hiromi wants it (despite her telling him he was a busybody to arrange it). And Hiromi could easily say -- as I think she might have been about to when Jun dropped her off -- that their being together doesn't work. But she doesn't, perhaps because she actually likes being with Jun.
Hiromi is good at lying, undoubtedly. Still your theory makes sense, at least to those who wouldn't mind seeing them as a couple, me for instance. I guess they think Jun's the opportunistic type of guy who takes advantage of others' emotional vulnerability. I wouldn't be so sure about that, given that there should be no obvious villain in True Tears if it keeps on like this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo
Jun and Noe are actually quite similar. Dangerous to be around...
There's no question that he's "cool" in both senses. He makes the other males in the show look like real wimps.
You could always say that again
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Old 2008-02-22, 15:10   Link #48
Kaoru Chujo
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In rewatching episodes, I noticed again that Jun tells Hiromi in the cinema that he only goes to movies with Noe (ore wa itsumo Noe to bakkari da). Maybe he's not the playboy he may appear to be. Moreover, Noe is all excited when he says he's going out on a date, so perhaps he doesn't go out that often.

And in answer to Manji Midou's understandable feelings against Hiromi, I personally think a white lie is often better than telling the truth. It's certainly very normal. It may not be working out for Hiromi right now, but I don't hold it against her in principle.
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Old 2008-02-22, 15:20   Link #49
golthin
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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
And in answer to Manji Midou's understandable feelings against Hiromi, I personally think a white lie is often better than telling the truth. It's certainly very normal. It may not be working out for Hiromi right now, but I don't hold it against her in principle.
That is why I changed my opinion about her lying after i saw the reason why she did it. I thought she just did it because she didn't want to have trouble in the household with the mother, but it actually was something much worse.
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Old 2008-02-22, 15:38   Link #50
Manji Midou
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That is why I changed my opinion about her lying after i saw the reason why she did it. I thought she just did it because she didn't want to have trouble in the household with the mother, but it actually was something much worse.
Hell, I don't dislike Hiromi...it just is she's my 3rd favorite of the three girls, it just irks me that Jun and shin are taking the majority of the blame...I don't blame her for lying but at the same time I can't say she isn't the main cause for this.
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Old 2008-02-22, 17:07   Link #51
Kaoru Chujo
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Hell, I don't dislike Hiromi...it just is she's my 3rd favorite of the three girls, it just irks me that Jun and shin are taking the majority of the blame...I don't blame her for lying but at the same time I can't say she isn't the main cause for this.
Good point. I'm not sure about "main cause," but maybe that's just my sympathy for her talking. Her choice to say she liked #4 certainly has led in directions she probably didn't expect. Everybody seems to me to have made reasonable decisions that ended up combining to make something unreasonable. But I still have hope that Jun may turn out to be a good guy and the best thing for her, so that the mix-up has a happy ending. And that Shin will end up after all this with his true love, whoever she is (Hiromi, Ai, or Noe).
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Old 2008-02-25, 22:19   Link #52
lea
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I know that I am in the minority, but I just wanted to show my support for Jun. Jun is actually my favorite character from the show. He's somewhat mysterious and a little shady, and we're still not sure whether he's good or bad, but I think that's what makes him so interesting.

He may end up being the most evil character on the show but, at the moment, I actually don't see why people think he's so evil. My guess is that a lot of this hatred is coming from Shin/Hiromi shippers. However, I do understand why they would hate him because he does play the role of "spoiler" in that pairing.

Spoiler for Episode 8:


Like I said, he can still end up being the most evil character on the show but, even if that's true, I am enjoying his scenes and his role in moving the plot along. I think he really adds to the show and makes it much more dramatic.

Last edited by lea; 2008-02-26 at 04:01.
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Old 2008-02-26, 03:33   Link #53
Khaos
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Now for my a little different interpretation:
Jun knows, what's going on between Shin and Hiromi and I think he does what he does to get them both into positions where they get pressured to much that finally have to communicate their feelings. However he didn't expect, Shin would tell Noe, he would like her (Jun was surprised when he heared that, and that was no happy surprise), so this makes it all more complicated. He now stands by Hiromi's side for she doesn't have anyone else to help her and be with her so I doubt he would do anything to her. In a way he plays a similar role for Hiromi as Noe for Shin: Helping them to mature and realize. He isn't a bad guy.
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Old 2008-03-02, 10:37   Link #54
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I was wondering what people thought about Jun's prior knowledge of Hiromi, and vice versa. Hiromi obviously lies when she says that she once had to "host" Jun during one of his games, but I wonder if the two of them have had any previous interactions before to cause Hiromi to think of him when choosing a candidate for her story to cover for her feelings for Shin. Its most likely that Hiromi only knew of him by his reputation as a basketball player, as high school sports is a small world, but I just wanted to see if other people had some other theories that could get fleshed out in the future.
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Old 2008-03-04, 12:26   Link #55
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Originally Posted by Kaoru Chujo View Post
In rewatching episodes, I noticed again that Jun tells Hiromi in the cinema that he only goes to movies with Noe (ore wa itsumo Noe to bakkari da). Maybe he's not the playboy he may appear to be. Moreover, Noe is all excited when he says he's going out on a date, so perhaps he doesn't go out that often.

And in answer to Manji Midou's understandable feelings against Hiromi, I personally think a white lie is often better than telling the truth. It's certainly very normal. It may not be working out for Hiromi right now, but I don't hold it against her in principle.
I, on the other hand, don't think white lie is any better than telling the truth. It is very possible to tell the truth without revealing anything, by for example, glossing over important details like politicians do. At the very least, if someone confront you later on, you can always claimed that they are the one who misunderstood.

But being a social outcast myself, a normal socialable person may not find that appealing.

I personally like both Noe and Jun, probably because they are as weird as me. I couldn't understand other people's reactions; if you like someone, why is it such a big deal? If you like someone, of course you would answer "I like you", just like Noe did. If it is for marriage, why is it such a big deal to ask someone to get married? Normal people are weird.

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Old 2008-03-04, 13:45   Link #56
Kaoru Chujo
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...Hiromi obviously lies when she says that she once had to "host" Jun during one of his games, but I wonder if the two of them have had any previous interactions before to cause Hiromi to think of him when choosing a candidate for her story to cover for her feelings for Shin....
Why do you think that was a lie? It seems most likely true to me, and the reason she picked him as the one she would claim to like. When one school comes to play another, some students would be assigned to help them find their way around, and a girl basketball player who was also a scorekeeper would be a natural choice to be a host. I think she'd know him from then, and from seeing him play, but not anything more.
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Old 2008-03-09, 18:23   Link #57
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I wonder sometimes if Jun really made the deal to make Noe happy. It seems to me that her being with someone else could simply act as a "seal" for his own feelings, if she's the one he loves. I'm thinking it's a little bit of both. If he can see her happy with someone else, he can maybe forget about her.

I wonder if it would be at all OOC for him to do such a thing. I don't think we know enough about him to really grasp why he does the things he does... Still, I like him, hahaha. An"ulterior motive" makes him all the more interesting.
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Old 2008-03-09, 18:47   Link #58
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I think some people are reading way too much into Jun and Hiromi's relationship at best. Jun was just a cover since answering "No.4" to the question of who she likes is a socially acceptable answer, whereas "Shin" is not (a la her living under the same roof, mom not liking her, etc.); you guys have to remember the "Japanese culture" dynamic as well as her specific social dynamic when it comes to answering that question in a socially acceptable manner.

Maybe after all this (meaning eps 5-10), Jun actually has something for her; but to claim that such was the case earlier on is to be wishfully missing what really happened earlier on in the series. She gave the socially acceptable response to the question, and Jun asked her to date him simply to keep her out of the way of Shin and Noe as per the earlier deal. That's how it all started; the fact that all of this has become far more complex than intended is a natural result of this kind of situation.
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Old 2008-03-09, 22:28   Link #59
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^I believe you're spot on with your assessment. I can't even fathom a Jun/Hiromi pairing. It wouldn't make any sense after having seen what happened in previous episodes. Jun's interest in Hiromi is entirely fabricated to prevent any event's that may cause Shin to break Noe's heart.

Jun obviously is in love with Noe in the same way Shin is in love with Hiromi. They both have seen the obstacles their respective crushes have gone through, and they want to be able to protect them. The difference is Jun's love is truly "forbidden", and so the only way he can express it is to give Noe to someone who can take care of her the way he would. Perhaps I'm reading too much into it, but I think initially Jun saw the same problem he was having with Noe in the Hiromi/Shin's relationship and believed a mutually beneficial agreement could be made. Of course this was before the events of ep.9.

Last edited by Rick_Grimes; 2008-03-09 at 22:29. Reason: forgot to site who I was agreeing with
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Old 2008-03-09, 22:44   Link #60
w00tness
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To be honest, I dont know why Jun refuses to end it with Hiromi. He knows that ther relationship is a farce. The only reason to keep it is because he is afraid that if he breaks off, then Shin will see no reason to keep his end of the bargain. However he fails to see that if Shin really loves Noe, whether Jun breaks up with Hiromi or not does not matter, and Shin wont break up with Noe just because Jun did with Hiromi. Conversely, if Shin doesnt really love Noe, then if Jun loves Noe so much, should he force Shin to continue being with Noe? Is this really the best for Noe? Wouldnt it be painful for her?

I think Jun is desperately clinging on to his ideal ending, even though he knows that it is just a dream, even though he knows it is not right, and will cause more hurt to everyone involved if left to continue. Escapism. I can really relate to that xD.

OR, you could say that he has developed true feelings for Hiromi. But yeah. heh?
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