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Old 2008-02-09, 12:49   Link #661
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Liquid mana filled moons? Woah, this could be a nice setup for a conflict involving a greedy foreign nation that is really desperate for resources and profits.
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Old 2008-02-09, 22:21   Link #662
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
Liquid mana filled moons? Woah, this could be a nice setup for a conflict involving a greedy foreign nation that is really desperate for resources and profits.
And if they had done so before Regius went to wake everyone up rudely, they would've succeeded.
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Old 2008-02-13, 13:29   Link #663
Kikaifan
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Man I missed some good stuff.

Anyway.

So what's with the Wolkenritter? I had originally assumed their bodies were basically human from their description in A's, and that despite being able to be preserved through only their linker core by the Book in actual function they depended on the human biology they were granted on creation. No Cartesian-dualistic 'true body/core/astral body' nonsense.

But Vita's little heroic moment at the end of StrikerS puts that notion to paid. I'm just guessing here, but that hit looked like it would easily have severed her spine and completely destroyed her heart. But she doesn't drop until her weapon does, a small army of drones and the hardest defensive field we've seen in the Nanohaverse later. And this is after they've supposedly weakened. The body has to be just a shell for her to keep going with that kind of damage, unless you want to take a really, really strong view on Barrier Jacket capabilities.

So what did they actually lose? Just their ability to regenerate? How quickly did that occur before? Signum's wound from her first battle with Fate stuck around at least a few hours...


Same question with Unison devices. Do they have a 'core' from which they can regenerate their human form from like normal devices and the Defense Program, with damage only being significant if hits some central area or causes some kind of magical feedback?

(This post, for the record, was originally a poorly-written satirical explanation of a conspiracy theory attributing the events of MSLN StrikerS to some sort of Belkan Supremacist faction of the TSA that used Regius and the High Council as patsies. In all likelihood it will be quoted and granted the immortality I meant to deny it with this edit, but I feel that Jimmy C's complaint below was well-founded. And that I was temporarily insane when I wrote the thing in the first place. So away it hopefully goes.)
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Old 2008-02-13, 13:47   Link #664
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Kikaifan, that has virtually nothing to do with Magic and Technology in MGLN. Why did you post it here?
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Old 2008-02-13, 13:57   Link #665
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Because in my experience discussions of TSA/Midchildan politics always end up in this thread while the more appropriate 'military, authority, and decisions...' thread is completely ignored.

Now, if there's a nested question of "why did you post poorly-written satire here instead of an actual topic for discussion" in there, I have no idea. I started writing something serious and somehow it mutated. If you would like for me to replace it with my original prompt for speculation on the nature of the bodies of living programs and Unison devices, I will.

Edit: okay let's do that. Now that I've actually written it the insanity has worn off and I'd rather people not read it. It can be our little secret.
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Old 2008-02-26, 02:02   Link #666
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I'm going to work on some components here.

*You will need A's ep 7, and StrikerS ep. 12*

I will attempt to range check and speed check Nanoha's buster. I think there's enough data for it. This should give us a clear idea of the range of Nanoha's abilities by the end of Strikers.


First up.

Divine buster extension. Target is Vita. Shot travel time is six seconds.

Vita is short, probably about a meter high. So she's got about the height of a 1 meter upper torso target from a firing range. Her size on screen is probably variable since it pixelates her and doesn't give us a definate range. But my MK I eyeball says between 300 and 400 meters.

Below is estimated velocity based on various guestimated distances.

~100 m = 16 m/s
~200 m = 33 m/s
~300 m = 50 m/s
~400 m = 67 m/s
~500 m = 83 m/s

(Since I want to say it's somewhere between 300 and 400 meters distance, I want to go and mark my favorite velocity as 60 m/s)

The next scene I use to quantify is Nanoha and fate's shot on Deici and Quattro. The trouble with this is 7arcs discrepencies. Which is more 'canon'. The fast panshot showing nanoha mere tens of meters away? Or the following calculations sheet?

If I fix Nanoha's shot velocity at any of the following, the five seconds between her shot firing, and collission with Fate's Trident Smasher attack at the target point...

16 m/s = 80 meters
33 m/s = 165 meters
50 m/s = 250 meters
67 m/s = 335 meters
83 m/s = 415 meters

My personal favorite marks it at 300 meters even. Which would be about right for having to use a scoped attack to make the shot really easy. Personal oppinion though.

Personally, I would move to discard the panshot for range estimating since even an insanely slow shot still puts her beyond what she was visually shown to be at. PLUS, it was indicated by the brief scope shot that she was attacking at range. I would put this forward along with the logical assumption that both herself and fate would be clear out of the way of Hayate's diabolic emmision.


Moving along, I will now use the above calcs to give an idea of what FATE was doing.

In the same scene, we note that during the scope shot, Fate herself is BVR. Only the twinkle of her trident smasher is visable, and its alignment is above the target trio. (Nanoha must be lower to the ground.)

Just how far out does that make Fate from the target?

Well, If I treat the sequence as linear, with no overlapping time, it takes HER shot ten seconds to reach the target. In the brief shots we see it, it appears to be moving the same speed as the Divine buster.

Now it's clear enough since the T Smasher was already visable in Nanoha's scope as she prepared to fire, that Fate shot first. (Which helps suggest the sequence was completely linear.)

So here are calculations, based on the various speed values for Operation Vita Shot. DBuster Extension.

At ten seconds. (Units are rounded)

16 m/s = 160 (0.1 mi)
33 m/s = 330 (0.2 mi)
50 m/s = 500 (0.3 mi)
67 m/s = 670 (0.4 mi)
83 m/s = 830 (0.5 mi)

This puts fate's attack at anwhere from a tenth of a mile at the lowest possible, to half a mile at the lenient.

If I go with my personal middleground at 60 m/s would put fate on a balanced 600 meters, at 0.372822 mi.

Since we know Fate was BVR in the scope shot, (Small enough that the zoomed in range still didn't spot her, or that the center twinkle overlapped her.) I'm going to have to rule 16 m/s and 33 m/s speed to range... since you would still be able to see her at 160, and 300 meters. If only a dot in the latter case.

This puts range on Trident Smasher between 500 meters, and 830 meters.

But this is FATE. Our resident high speed blitz specialist. If her T Smasher has range around that of an M-16, how much more does out dedicated long range shooter have?


The longest range shots we (I) can find, is the Blaster 3 Divine Buster shot through the cradle, which is also ten seconds long, and the Airport Fire shot, which has no end point from which to calculate. Only a wide field shot showing the blast blowing a hole out of the building and off into the night beyond the height of the towers with ease. Scaling is troublesome though. We only know the hole blown was significantly many times Nanoha's size, and that the airport is extremely large.

The Cradle shot blew through an unknown number of solid bulkheads, hit the target point, and continued to roar on beyond impact point. And hte airport shot? Who knows. We don't have a termination point to judge timing for speed.

I would estimate that Nanoha's shot range, invaribly being greater than Fate's, is going to be starting her lower end, at the upper estimation of Fate's trident Smasher at ~800-900 meters and probably going on up to 1,500 meters or greater.

Range limitations on these shots may actually be more in line with problems involving moving targets at range. That being, locating, fixing, and hitting a target with attacks that do not home, and take several seconds to reach impact.
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Old 2008-02-26, 05:18   Link #667
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
I'm going to work on some components here.

*You will need A's ep 7, and StrikerS ep. 12*

I will attempt to range check and speed check Nanoha's buster. I think there's enough data for it. This should give us a clear idea of the range of Nanoha's abilities by the end of Strikers.


First up.

Divine buster extension. Target is Vita. Shot travel time is six seconds.

Vita is short, probably about a meter high. So she's got about the height of a 1 meter upper torso target from a firing range. Her size on screen is probably variable since it pixelates her and doesn't give us a definate range. But my MK I eyeball says between 300 and 400 meters.
Actually, I've ranged on Vita looking back at Nanoha. It might have looked long, but actually stadia-ranging it says Nanoha is about 5px wide on a 640px wide image (using the width of the target is less precise then using the height, but more reliable because they are fewer ways to alter your profile greatly in width). Given a focal length of 35mm, the FOV of the image is 54.43 degrees and the subtended arc is thus 25.515 arcminutes (5/640 of 54.43 degrees). Given a 40cm width (which is generous, because that's my rough shoulder to shoulder width, and I'm definitely bigger than 9-year old Nanoha), it works out to only 54m. Even at a 85mm focal length (long end of "normal" perspective), it is only 122m. To get a 300m range, the focal length will need to be 210mm and the FOV only 9.8 degrees, which is definitely a zoom (forced perspective).

Quote:
~100 m = 16 m/s

(Since I want to say it's somewhere between 300 and 400 meters distance, I want to go and mark my favorite velocity as 60 m/s)
The first is the only one that is within the valid zone, unless you want to claim forced perspective.

Quote:
The next scene I use to quantify is Nanoha and fate's shot on Deici and Quattro. The trouble with this is 7arcs discrepencies. Which is more 'canon'. The fast panshot showing nanoha mere tens of meters away? Or the following calculations sheet?
Will have to actually look at the thing, since probably the fast panshot already discouraged most long-distance claimers. Here follows preliminary comments.

Quote:
If I fix Nanoha's shot velocity at any of the following, the five seconds between her shot firing, and collission with Fate's Trident Smasher attack at the target point...

16 m/s = 80 meters
If you want to use shot velocity methods, then it is 1.

Quote:
My personal favorite marks it at 300 meters even. Which would be about right for having to use a scoped attack to make the shot really easy. Personal oppinion though.
Actually, at over 100m, your problems are not limited to using scopes or no scopes. It is really a problem of stabilization without stocks and shoulders.

Quote:
Personally, I would move to discard the panshot for range estimating since even an insanely slow shot still puts her beyond what she was visually shown to be at.
Demonstrate that.

Quote:
PLUS, it was indicated by the brief scope shot that she was attacking at range.
We've learned from the previous example that scopes are used for as little as 50m so that's no help.

Quote:
I would put this forward along with the logical assumption that both herself and fate would be clear out of the way of Hayate's diabolic emmision.
The diabolic emission is over. Quite frankly, the whole scene's setup and intentions (if we proceed on this front) actually favors them being close in, giving Quattro and Dieci the impression they are in a No-Escape zone. If they were N-hundred meters away (dots in the sky at most), that pressure will be non-existent (because if I assume Nanoha and Fate are special cases, Vita has already demonstrated conclusively in A's that 100m is an extreme shot for Midchildrans, and that will be the norms that Quattro and Dieci will work on.) and the two of them will continue running.

Quote:
In the same scene, we note that during the scope shot, Fate herself is BVR. Only the twinkle of her trident smasher is visable, and its alignment is above the target trio. (Nanoha must be lower to the ground.)
Not having studied the pictures yet, here is a possible alternate from the words. Nanoha saw a glint of sunlight...

Quote:
Since we know Fate was BVR in the scope shot, (Small enough that the zoomed in range still didn't spot her, or that the center twinkle overlapped her.) I'm going to have to rule 16 m/s and 33 m/s speed to range... since you would still be able to see her at 160, and 300 meters. If only a dot in the latter case.
Not having studied the picture, again, you are already making a methodology error. Remember that the range to Fate->Nanoha is longer than Fate->Numbers.

If I figure Nanoha is 160m from target, and so's Fate, they will be 320m apart from each other (which on a 35mm focal length, will place Fate just at the subpixel region and thus definitely a valid target for being "deleted" off screen - though even a 2px or even 4px wide target is probably fair game for deletion if the artist's feeling lazy and we all know how lazy 7Arcs was when drawing StrikerS - problem with trying to analyze cartoons), but they'll still only be shooting at targets 160m away.

Quote:
The longest range shots we (I) can find, is the Blaster 3 Divine Buster shot through the cradle, which is also ten seconds long, and the Airport Fire shot, which has no end point from which to calculate. Only a wide field shot showing the blast blowing a hole out of the building and off into the night beyond the height of the towers with ease. Scaling is troublesome though. We only know the hole blown was significantly many times Nanoha's size, and that the airport is extremely large.
Both shots depend greatly on how large you assume the targets to be. Frankly, an airport is generally built low. Even the tower will likely be no more than 100m above ground.
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Old 2008-02-26, 05:36   Link #668
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How accurate is using photography lense work on an animated show though? I wouldn't question a thing if we were pulling live action shots. But we're very well probably looking at a combination of cell shading and digital editing rather than precise camera focalpoints. FOV cross-checking may very well be dead on arrival if they're doing their work via Mark I Eyeball and digital layering only.

Another thing we should cross refference the local terrain below them. Just to be sure. I just don't see anyone thinking they're "safe" at a mere football field distance. Nanoha can FLY that distance faster than the shot would have traveled it if that was the case.
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Old 2008-02-26, 07:12   Link #669
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Basically, the issue is not so much "photography lens" work then perspective. From the moment you start using stadia-ranging, even if it is a crude "My Mark I eyeball says it is about Xm", you are assuming that the makers have kept things in perspective so it looks "natural" to the viewer, so their perspective is not all out of whack.
Spoiler for Long:
As for local terrain, it can be used but it is also iffy. How big is a terrain feature. If two combatants are ten houses apart, are the houses 10m across or 20?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATE: I've went and gotten the screenshots. Please refer here for details:
http://arkhangelsk.onlinewebshop.net/mglnss12.html

Short version is that you seemed to have guessed roughly right on the speed despite your inappropriate methodology, but the range, well it WAS longer than 100 but it probably isn't what you want it to be either.

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Old 2008-02-26, 10:12   Link #670
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Heh.

So in StrikerS 26 when Signum uses that flame whip spell with Agito, the drones she's hitting (which are a lot wider than Vita is tall) aren't even visible until they start exploding (unless this got fixed in DVD or somethin'). Shot takes less than two seconds to hit, though it takes a couple more to sweep out its full arc.
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Old 2008-02-26, 10:27   Link #671
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Actually, IIRC you can just see them as little dots, but yes, any way you cut it, it is one of the longer ranged attacks. Powerwise it is probably possible - Take Hraesvelgr level energy and deliver it on an arc instead of a sphere, and you should get a fair zone of destruction.
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Old 2008-02-26, 10:43   Link #672
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Oh. That's what I get for watching it on youtube.

I think they forgot about the survivors from that first group she hit with Laevatein though, lol, they're nowhere to be seen.
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Old 2008-02-26, 14:34   Link #673
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So we've got based on your frame-by-frame shots that is that the beams are firing around 67 m/s. (Mean average.)

I actually wanted to suggest doing a FxF frame check next but I was too tired, so you beat me to the punch.

Now, if we assume that velocity is the general medium for all beam shots...

That puts Vita in A's at ~400 meters, and Fate with a shot range of at least 670 meters.

Do we want to solidify this? Or would you like to check a few other shots first?

Another good shot would be quatro geting nuked by the Blaster 3 Divine Buster in the Cradle. That shot is stationary and could be used for beam-O-speed. (That was the beam fram X frame I had in mind last night but never got around to speaking about.)

(EDIT: Incidently, I think it's bad form to take potshots at me during a technical breakdown.)
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Old 2008-02-26, 18:58   Link #674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
So we've got based on your frame-by-frame shots that is that the beams are firing around 67 m/s. (Mean average.)

I actually wanted to suggest doing a FxF frame check next but I was too tired, so you beat me to the punch.

Now, if we assume that velocity is the general medium for all beam shots...

That puts Vita in A's at ~400 meters, and Fate with a shot range of at least 670 meters.
Sorry, no, it does not work that way. The stadia ranging has priority over an ASSUMED shot speed. Clearly, what happened is that more of the shot overlapped then you guessed.

To support a 670m shoot with that graphic, the focal length will have to be over 122mm - that's zoom range. Since as I've already mentioned, the graphics are actually against any kind of extra zoom being added to the scope (a place where zoom is acceptable), if there is zoom, it is there during the pan-shot phase. Which means you are arguing for forced perspective.

Quote:
(EDIT: Incidently, I think it's bad form to take potshots at me during a technical breakdown.)
What potshot. Oh, you mean the Crash thing. That wasn't a potshot. That was a joke, more accurately, a friendly poke at your OC character. Definitely no hostility intended.

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Old 2008-02-27, 00:58   Link #675
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Sorry, no, it does not work that way. The stadia ranging has priority over an ASSUMED shot speed. Clearly, what happened is that more of the shot overlapped then you guessed.

To support a 670m shoot with that graphic, the focal length will have to be over 122mm - that's zoom range. Since as I've already mentioned, the graphics are actually against any kind of extra zoom being added to the scope (a place where zoom is acceptable), if there is zoom, it is there during the pan-shot phase. Which means you are arguing for forced perspective.
Was I right, or was I wrong? You put the speed you estimated between fifty and eighty or so at the end.

Quote:
So, a bolt can travel about 160-170px in 2-3 frames (2-3 because 32702 and 32703 basically have the beams in the same place - limitations in time resolution imposed by economizing anime companies). Quattro is ~51px tall, so the bolts move about 3.13-3.33 Quattro lengths every 1/15th (two NTSC frames) to 1/10th (3 NTSC frames). If we assume Quattro is 165cm tall, then the bolts move at 51.65-82.42m/s.
I simply applied a quick average from there.
67.035

Either tell me I'm right, or tell me I'm wrong, but don't do both, that's just irritating.

Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle in this situation. Either the speed is right, or the distance is right. (Position or Momentum!?) Both cannot be measured at the same time. It's obvious they conflict fiercely.

Now, since we know the exact flight time of Vita Shot, I'll apply your range calculation to that.
If I knock a second off the flight time for Vita Shot to account for potential overlaps at firing and impact, her distance is still 268 meters out. Based on the average of the range of speed you calculated. And the low end of your calculation puts her at 201 meters. According to what you said earlier. Stadia ranging puts her at 122, nearly half the distance at the low end of the speed calc. either the Stadia ranging is innaccurate because we're assuming Lenses, or we're getting some serious bullet-timing in somewhere, and nobody's telling Morpheus about it. (That, or by some really freaky coincidence, magic has a flare for dramatic timing and pulls back on the speed just before impact to give vita the 'OH SHI-' moment she got.)

I mean, I don't know about you, but 'velocity multiplied by time equals distance' is a pretty SOLID calculation.

So we need to decide if you want to use the half-guesses on perspective/forced perspective and focal lengths, or go with the 'far more reliable' calculations you've done.

Quote:
This is actually the ideal configuration for relative scaling, rendering focal lengths basically irrevelant, and far more reliable than guessing about focal lengths.
Or if you just can't bear to pick one style or the other... take the moderate calcs from both and apply them in average and come up with a middleground.

That would put Vita at 228 meters, the Buster at 45.6 m/s
Which would put Fate at 456 meters at 10 seconds, 319 on the short side of lenient with 7 seconds assuming 3 seconds overlapping events. And then we can simply account for the higher speed busters in StrikerS as natural growth Curve on Nanoha, call it a day, and have our decided range and velocity calculations.


I could go with averages of the ranges coming from a complete set of calculations based on all methods possible to exploit. At least then we've got a fixed figure in which we can apply to all events.

It would be handy to have fixed values for other things as well. Seeing as the Asura is supposed to fire a weapon that has a 200 km diameter blast, but on-screen perspective showed it to be a LOT closer than 100 km.
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Old 2008-02-27, 01:58   Link #676
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I just want to note something on the Athra/Asura and Arc~en~Ciel; apparently according to the DVD liner notes, the Arc's blast radius is larger than the firing range. So apparently TSAB ships fire Arc and then run like hell away from the blast. Baka 7Arcs.

*stays the hell out of calculations and stuff - Damnit guys I took English Lit instead of calculus!*
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Old 2008-02-27, 02:03   Link #677
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
I just want to note something on the Athra/Asura and Arc~en~Ciel; apparently according to the DVD liner notes, the Arc's blast radius is larger than the firing range. So apparently TSAB ships fire Arc and then run like hell away from the blast. Baka 7Arcs.

*stays the hell out of calculations and stuff - Damnit guys I took English Lit instead of calculus!*
/facepalm

It can't be put better than this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post


..only that even the DVD made more mistakes.
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Old 2008-02-27, 02:26   Link #678
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
I simply applied a quick average from there.
67.035

Either tell me I'm right, or tell me I'm wrong, but don't do both, that's just irritating.
What part of "improper data fusing" do you not get. You do not take the shot velocity of Scenario B (SS Ep12) and assume it applies to Scenario A (A's Ep7), unless you have no data for Scenario A and must extrapolate based on Scenario B data. If observation taken directly from Scenario A contradicts your guess based on Scenario B, then the extrapolation is simply wrong.

Quote:
Now, since we know the exact flight time of Vita Shot, I'll apply your range calculation to that.
If I knock a second off the flight time for Vita Shot to account for potential overlaps at firing and impact, her distance is still 268 meters out. Based on the average of the range of speed you calculated. And the low end of your calculation puts her at 201 meters. According to what you said earlier. Stadia ranging puts her at 122, nearly half the distance at the low end of the speed calc. either the Stadia ranging is innaccurate because we're assuming Lenses, or we're getting some serious bullet-timing in somewhere, and nobody's telling Morpheus about it. (That, or by some really freaky coincidence, magic has a flare for dramatic timing and pulls back on the speed just before impact to give vita the 'OH SHI-' moment she got.)
The far end of stadia ranging puts her at 122m. Here are some other possibilities - the round in Ep7 flew somewhat slower than the round in SS Ep12. Why is this simple alternative not even a candidate?

Quote:
So we need to decide if you want to use the half-guesses on perspective/forced perspective and focal lengths, or go with the 'far more reliable' calculations you've done.
Hopefully, you aren't just quoting me, but fully understand why "in plane" is an ideal situation.

The in-plane situation is indeed ideal for distance scaling (one dimension of the velocity scaling problem), but the situation as a whole is not really as reliable for velocity scaling due to the low number of total data points and the horrible time resolution (the other dimension) of lazily-drawn anime. The bolt froze for 32702 and 32703 and moved for 32705 (for some reason, it proved impossible to get a cap of 32704, so for all I know 32704 would have been the same as 32703 as well - which turns it into a 3 stop-1 move situation. Come to think of it, even if 32704 = 32705, it would be a 2 stop-1 move-1 stop situation, with the beam traveling that 16x pixel distance over 4 frames - darn it, maybe I made an error, will have to think on this one...). On 32706, the two beams start to interfere with each other (the explosion begins before the two beams actually collide), thus invalidating the calculation. But what happened in 32701. It was a white frame, but if it wasn't, what would it have depicted? Would it have depicted the beam at a different (farther away) location, thus providing an addition data point to refine the speed, or would it have been the same as 32702 and 32703, thus expanding the timeframe of movement from 1/10 to 1/7.5 second with consequences of slowing down the beam. (The same could actually be said of 32700, but to convention, it is improper to freeze positions more than 3 frames in a row so as to maintain the animation effect, so one assumes it would have shown the beam in a different position).

But even given a reliable velocity estimate, it does not cover using the reliability of using said velocity to calculate range based on TV=R in situations where cut scenes are rampant, and an unknown number of seconds are cut out or repeated with each cut scene.
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Old 2008-02-27, 04:05   Link #679
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
What part of "improper data fusing" do you not get. You do not take the shot velocity of Scenario B (SS Ep12) and assume it applies to Scenario A (A's Ep7), unless you have no data for Scenario A and must extrapolate based on Scenario B data. If observation taken directly from Scenario A contradicts your guess based on Scenario B, then the extrapolation is simply wrong.
I understand it perfectly. I'm also discarding it on purpose to push towards compiling all data into one large set to cover all situations seen. In this case, apply calculations from scenario B to Scenario A and compare with the Scenario A calculations to see the differences. Then do the reverse for Scenario B.
You don't look at the tactical map to understand the strategic situation. Does that make sense?

Quote:
The far end of stadia ranging puts her at 122m. Here are some other possibilities - the round in Ep7 flew somewhat slower than the round in SS Ep12. Why is this simple alternative not even a candidate?
Never said it wasn't, it's just needlessly increasing the complications to do so until we've got a full data collection to work with. I want to see what the full ranges of different situations come out with using cross refferenced data sets comes to.


Quote:
Hopefully, you aren't just quoting me, but fully understand why "in plane" is an ideal situation.
I may not be an expert, but I'm not exactly stupid, and knowing why having the attack AND the target in the same depth plane works better. (And why having both attacks in the same frame helps confirm that you are looking directly on profile and confirming it is indeed, same plane.) It means simply that the target object size can be used in direct refference to the attack size, and how far that attack would move in relation to its own size and the target. It's not rocket science. Though you type it out as such...

Quote:
The in-plane situation is indeed ideal for distance scaling (one dimension of the velocity scaling problem), but the situation as a whole is not really as reliable for velocity scaling due to the low number of total data points and the horrible time resolution (the other dimension) of lazily-drawn anime. The bolt froze for 32702 and 32703 and moved for 32705 (for some reason, it proved impossible to get a cap of 32704, so for all I know 32704 would have been the same as 32703 as well - which turns it into a 3 stop-1 move situation. Come to think of it, even if 32704 = 32705, it would be a 2 stop-1 move-1 stop situation, with the beam traveling that 16x pixel distance over 4 frames - darn it, maybe I made an error, will have to think on this one...). On 32706, the two beams start to interfere with each other (the explosion begins before the two beams actually collide), thus invalidating the calculation. But what happened in 32701. It was a white frame, but if it wasn't, what would it have depicted? Would it have depicted the beam at a different (farther away) location, thus providing an addition data point to refine the speed, or would it have been the same as 32702 and 32703, thus expanding the timeframe of movement from 1/10 to 1/7.5 second with consequences of slowing down the beam. (The same could actually be said of 32700, but to convention, it is improper to freeze positions more than 3 frames in a row so as to maintain the animation effect, so one assumes it would have shown the beam in a different position).
Do you want me to break out Adobe Premier and get you every frame you need?
I can probably get that one shot...


Quote:
But even given a reliable velocity estimate, it does not cover using the reliability of using said velocity to calculate range based on TV=R in situations where cut scenes are rampant, and an unknown number of seconds are cut out or repeated with each cut scene.
Sure it can.

It's called 'bullshitting'. I for one, think 'more accurate and consistent' bullshit beats out 'random' bullshit any time of the day.
We have scarce data that is consistent. Where it would be consistent, it's seperated by situation. If there is matching information, such as attack types matching up for the same character, it would be prudent to use that data, and then extrapolate variances rather than sitting around going 'We can't do that!'


It may have its flaws, but it would be consistent and set the line. And the only ones who can go and finger wag at us would be either someone who breaks their own back to calc and recalc this mess, or someone from the actual production staff somewhere who gives official numbers.

Otherwise, we'll have a scene like with the Airport Fire, where Nanoha fires a beam big enough to blow a hole in the top of the airport SO LARGE that her body is pretty small compared to the hole. The same beam which outstrips that size in length alone, and travels its length in under a second. Calc THAT range and velocity. Go ahead, wave the estimated perspective flag at it, see what you get. Compared to any calcs we have here. Traveling a haindwaivium estimated 200 meters or more in a second already blows everything we've done here out of the water like a SUBROC nuclear depth charge to a German WWII Era U-Boat. (Everything we've calced comes to below 100 m/s.)

Actually...


DO IT. I mean it. Calc that shot if you can figure out a way. I want to see what kind of velocity and range that shot has compared to everything else.

You'll want SS episode 1 from 4:29 to 4:36 I don't exactly know how you'll estimate the shot, since everything is shown in perspective. (Must be when 7arcs had the financing to put on the best graphics editing.)

At least, let's get everything cross refferenced to build a full image of speeds and ranges based on the different calculations. More data is BETTER.
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Old 2008-02-27, 04:54   Link #680
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
I understand it perfectly. I'm also discarding it on purpose to push towards compiling all data into one large set to cover all situations seen. In this case, apply calculations from scenario B to Scenario A and compare with the Scenario A calculations to see the differences. Then do the reverse for Scenario B.
You don't look at the tactical map to understand the strategic situation. Does that make sense?
Well, and when you find out they don't really match, it is intellectually dishonest to try and say that the non-matching scenario fits by twisting its observation.

Quote:
Do you want me to break out Adobe Premier and get you every frame you need?
I can probably get that one shot...
Go ahead. Get the whole series of frames around that one too - probably in the end you'll grab a maximum of 10 frames - and please, don't JPEG - definitely NO color subsampling. PNG, PNG, PNG.

Quote:
Otherwise, we'll have a scene like with the Airport Fire, where Nanoha fires a beam big enough to blow a hole in the top of the airport SO LARGE that her body is pretty small compared to the hole. The same beam which outstrips that size in length alone, and travels its length in under a second. Calc THAT range and velocity. Go ahead, wave the estimated perspective flag at it, see what you get. Compared to any calcs we have here. Traveling a haindwaivium estimated 200 meters or more in a second already blows everything we've done here out of the water like a SUBROC nuclear depth charge to a German WWII Era U-Boat. (Everything we've calced comes to below 100 m/s.)

DO IT. I mean it. Calc that shot if you can figure out a way. I want to see what kind of velocity and range that shot has compared to everything else.

You'll want SS episode 1 from 4:29 to 4:36 I don't exactly know how you'll estimate the shot, since everything is shown in perspective. (Must be when 7arcs had the financing to put on the best graphics editing.)

At least, let's get everything cross refferenced to build a full image of speeds and ranges based on the different calculations. More data is BETTER.
Let's clarify "pretty small". Quite frankly, by now you should begin to know your limitations in estimating things like size and range from eyeball alone - your 300m target is only at most ~100m. Your "BVR" proves to be 8px wide.

Pre-analysis commentary says that airports are generally not built high, so the beam's total run is likely to be relatively short.

BTW, you seem awfully enthusiastic about longer ranges and higher velocities
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