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Old 2008-02-23, 07:46   Link #781
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
Oh my gods! talk about getting emotional when reading this chapter...

Chap 34
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Old 2008-02-23, 07:59   Link #782
MakubeX2
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Seeing that many of you are in praise of this series....

So may I ask how many of you guys will be ordering a complete set of the original Japanese publication from Amazon JP (Face it, this series might never get a English translation) in support of Watashiya once this series is done ?
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Old 2008-02-23, 11:43   Link #783
Ashlotte
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Oh comeon DK...you can't talk about rin being naive or unknowing about sex seeing as she's been sexually harrassing aoki for most of the series.

It was a pretty damn good chapter, but like others said it also feels like its starting to really wind to a conclusion which would be sad...I need more Kuro/Shiro-chan damnit.
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Old 2008-02-23, 16:29   Link #784
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Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
Seeing that many of you are in praise of this series....

So may I ask how many of you guys will be ordering a complete set of the original Japanese publication from Amazon JP (Face it, this series might never get a English translation) in support of Watashiya once this series is done ?
<shrug> I've been ordering the series book by book... so I'm up-to-date with t he series anyway. If you order several manga at once (I'm following several series in japanese), the shipping isn't so horrendous -- it'll double the cost of a book... but manga is so cheap (<700yen usually) that its hardly a major dent.
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Old 2008-02-23, 17:18   Link #785
Lunar Archivist
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Spoiler for ch 34:
I agree with everyone's assessment of Aoki being an idiot, but not for the reasons being cited here. Howver, I think people are forgetting that we, the readers, have what's referred to as an "Olympian View" of the series, i.e. that we are privy to a bunch of information that all of the other characters are not, so we can make more informed judgements and decisions than any of them could. I mean, let's look at the three main male characters involved in our current dilemma for a moment and make a list of what each of them knows about each other and Rin herself:

I. Rin's father
1. Knows that his former girlfriend, Aki Kokonoe, is dead.
2. Knows that Reiji is her legal guardian.
3. Originally wanted Aki to have an abortion and left her when she didn't.
Conclusion: Personally, I agree with everyone's assessment that he has no business showing up in Rin's life now and taking her away after abandoning her mother like he did. However, we also have to consider that we still have absolutely no idea why he wanted Aki to get an abortion. Yes, it could very well be he just didn't want a child and was a complete douchebag, but it's equally possible that there were other factors that came into play, like differences in social status, his family possibly disapproving of his relationship with Aki, prior work or school-related obligations, that he was married and Aki was his mistress, etc. That last one may sound a bit out there, but think about it: Aki was a single mother working as a supermarket cashier and she could afford to live in a house. Rental or otherwise, that's still a bit beyond the purchasing power of someone with a job like hers, don't you think? It's also possible that Aki became pregnant while she was still in high school and it was impractical/impossible for him to financially support a child if he was the same age as she was. I'm not making excuses for the jerk, but the bottom line is we know nothing about what drove him to abandon Aki in the first place, only that he did. Another thing to consider is that this all happened nearly 10 years ago. Time changes people. Rin's father has nothing to gain by demanding custody of Rin now, as raising his daughter and the money he's apparently dumped into getting a lawyer/private investigator constitutes a major financial drain, and he can't exactly extort money from Reiji like he might've been able to from the mother of his child. As slow and late as it was, maybe the guy's really just trying to do the right thing in the end. The simple fact of the matter is that we just don't know.

II. Reiji Kokonoe
1. Knows that Rin's father wanted Aki to have her aborted.
2. Knows that Rin has a crush on Aoki.
3. Knows that Aoki has admitted to "liking" Rin.
4. Knows that Aoki once made a "house call" to check up on Rin in spite of his explicitly having mentioned he didn't want a home visit.
5. Believes that Aoki's skills as a teacher are questionable since he has made assertions about Rin's actions and behavior that are (from his viewpoint) completely without precedent since she behaves completely differently around him than she does around Aoki.
6. Is doing his best to provide and care for Rin as her legal guardian.
7. Is trying to groom Rin to become Aki's replacement.
Conclusion: Reiji's essentially a mixed bag. On the one hand, he has assumed responsibility for raising, providing for, and taking care of Rin and seems to have done a pretty decent job considering that he had a dysfunctional family upbringing that left him mentally unstable. And, in Chapter 34, Rin has denied that he has sexually abused her in any way, so we still have absolutely no explanation for the "hickeys" and there is zero evidence, as Aoki admitted when he called that child services hotline to try and report Reiji. On the other hand, we, the readers, know that Reiji's pretty delusional and fucked in the head and part of the reason he's so protective of her is for the completely selfish and personal reason that he eventually wants to have her all to himself. Now, add to this the fact that Rin once told Reiji that she has a crush on Aoki, that she also mentioned that he admitted to liking her(while failing to mention the context), and that he has accused her at a parent-teacher meeting of inappropriate behavior when she has shown absolutely no signs of doing such things in his presence. Reiji's not the sanest person out there, but I have to admit, from his point of view, I'd probably be pretty damn suspicious of the appropriateness of Aoki's actions and his competence as a teacher. One of the few things we can pin on him is being ignorant, misinformed, and not being aware of the whole picture.

III. Daisuke Aoki
1. Knows that Rin has displayed sexual knowledge and behavior highly inappropriate for a member for someone her age.
2. Has seen Rin come to school sometimes wearing sexy outfits.
3. Knows that Rin has strange hickey-like marks on the back of her neck and has been going out of her way to cover them up/make excuses for them.
4. Knows that Rin's father and mother were not together when she started attending Futatsubashi Elementary School, but knows absolutely no details about the situation other than that basic information.
5. Learned in Chapter 34 that Reiji and Aki were involved.
Conclusion: Yes, Aoki is being a dumbass, but, like Reiji, his actions look that way because he's acting out of ignorance about the situation and Rin's not exactly forthcoming about details abour her personal life. He has no idea that Rin's mother was abandoned by her father after she refused to cave in to his demands to have an abortion and I'm pretty damn sure he'd reconsider handing custody of Rin over to him even if he were aware of that fact. And let's face it: if a nine-year-old came up to me, pulled down her panties, groped me, flashed me, made sexually explicit remarks, started coming on to me, and expressed interest in engaging in sexual activity with me, I'd probably be pretty damn suspicious of what her home life was like: at best, she has an irrresponsible parent or guardian who's lenient about granting her access to pornography and other adult material, or, at worst, she is being sexually abused by said individual and is learning all this stuff from him firsthand. Quite frankly, if I were in Aoki's shoes and my knowledge were limited to these facts, I'm not so sure I wouldn't act differently than he is right now.

To be frank, this entire situation is fucked up: we have three individuals who are ignorant of the big picture and are essentially just about ready to turn Rin's life upside down in order to do what they personally believe to be best for her. As Rin's correctly pointed out, however, all three of them have not asked the person at the center of all this - namely her - what she wants to do and how she feels. And given her strength of will and character as well as what she thinks to herself in Chapter 34, three bets she's not going to take that lying down...

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Old 2008-02-23, 17:47   Link #786
Anh_Minh
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I agree, especially the bit about Rin's father possibly having changed.

But I think both he and Aoki are way too rash.
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Old 2008-02-23, 18:11   Link #787
Deathkillz
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Aoki is just dumb crap...he hasn't even seen Rin's real father yet but already makes up his mind about getting her to go with him...I wil lawl so hard if some drunktard appears at the front door (*dreams* ).
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Oh comeon DK...you can't talk about rin being naive or unknowing about sex seeing as she's been sexually harrassing aoki for most of the series.

It was a pretty damn good chapter, but like others said it also feels like its starting to really wind to a conclusion which would be sad...I need more Kuro/Shiro-chan damnit.
That is one thing, but for an adult to ask that to a child is another...creeps the hell outta me

It's like if my mother came and ask me if I was still a virgin *WTF face*

I might buy the set when it is complete for collection sakes...and maybe I can read later when I get better at the language
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Old 2008-02-23, 21:13   Link #788
Lunar Archivist
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Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
Aoki is just dumb crap...he hasn't even seen Rin's real father yet but already makes up his mind about getting her to go with him...I wil lawl so hard if some drunktard appears at the front door (*dreams* ).

That is one thing, but for an adult to ask that to a child is another...creeps the hell outta me
Honestly, I'm not sure there's any non-awkward way to ask a child if someone's sexually violated them. ^_^;

It would be hilarious if Rin's father turned out to a crossdresser or a transvestite or something. :P

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Old 2008-02-23, 23:17   Link #789
stelok
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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post



Now how did you come to this conclusion?...
Because we haven't seen what Rin's daddy looks like. I thought it is a hint/foreshadowing that he might be cross-dressing as a woman.

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Originally Posted by Lunar Archivist View Post
I agree with everyone's assessment of Aoki being an idiot, but not for the reasons being cited here. Howver, I think people are forgetting that we, the readers, have what's referred to as an "Olympian View" of the series, i.e. that we are privy to a bunch of information that all of the other characters are not, so we can make more informed judgements and decisions than any of them could. I mean, let's look at the three main male characters involved in our current dilemma for a moment and make a list of what each of them knows about each other and Rin herself:



III. Daisuke Aoki


4. Knows that Rin's father and mother were not together when she started attending Futatsubashi Elementary School, but knows absolutely no details about the situation other than that basic information.

Conclusion: Yes, Aoki is being a dumbass, but, like Reiji, his actions look that way because he's acting out of ignorance about the situation and Rin's not exactly forthcoming about details abour her personal life. He has no idea that Rin's mother was abandoned by her father after she refused to cave in to his demands to have an abortion and I'm pretty damn sure he'd reconsider handing custody of Rin over to him even if he were aware of that fact. right now.

The Lunar Archivist
Your evaluations and analysis of those said men's dilemmas are diligently thorough and enlightening. But you overlooked one thing. Aoki also knows that Rin was abandoned by her father and her mother was deceased since he read Rin's composition from first grade. However Aoki had no idea that the father wanted to have Rin be aborted as an infant.
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Old 2008-02-24, 01:54   Link #790
Lunar Archivist
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Your evaluations and analysis of those said men's dilemmas are diligently thorough and enlightening. But you overlooked one thing. Aoki also knows that Rin was abandoned by her father and her mother was deceased since he read Rin's composition from first grade. However Aoki had no idea that the father wanted to have Rin be aborted as an infant.
No dispute about his knowledge of Aki and how he found out about it. However, exactly how much he knows about Rin's father is something even I'm not 100% sure about...and that has more to do with conflicting translations and information than anything else.

First, there's this:



The left translation is by Nanashi Rorikon Yarou Domo and the right one by SaHa. There's a marked difference between being separated from the father of your child and divorced from him, for starters. Second, no matter which way you slice it, both suggest that Aki was either married or that she had a common-law husband since you can't divorce or separate from a boyfriend. However, in later chapters, both Aki and Reiji state that she only had a boyfriend who broke up with her, which conflicts with this information regardless...

Either way, though, all Aoki knows is that Rin's father and mother weren't living together when she started school there, which is about the most general factual statement you can make about all this. Do we have any Japanese speakers here who can make sense of this?

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Old 2008-02-24, 02:45   Link #791
jigenbakuda
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Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
Seeing that many of you are in praise of this series....

So may I ask how many of you guys will be ordering a complete set of the original Japanese publication from Amazon JP (Face it, this series might never get a English translation) in support of Watashiya once this series is done ?
I have all the book, but unfortunately, I do not have the dvds. I am in japan now so I will look for the dvds but they might cost too much. I got my manga used from amazon (got my girlfriend hooked on them, lol she read all 4 volumes), hopefully I can score some used dvds as well.

@Lunar Archivist

I enjoyed your breakdown of the characters known info. It makes things seem more reasonable and understandable. I love it when people put thought into their posts (regardless of if I agree with them or not), it always causes me to look at things differently...
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Old 2008-02-25, 07:38   Link #792
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I'm not sure what to think, but we really don't enough if we can call the father a bastard. First of all it would make no sense what so ever if they where actually married that the father would want to abort the child he had with his wife. So I think it's save to asume they weren't married.

If you somehow unintentionally get someone pregnant. Are you really so sure you wouldn't consider abortion? The guy might not even have the means to raise the child. Or just not ready yet to enter parrenthood. If the mother decides to have the child. He sudenly lost the right to see or care for his own flesh and blood? It might be even the case after the guy said to abort Rin, Aki dicided not to see or contact the father anymore.

Still if you look at it realistically. Rather then good or bad he might just be human. He wants to see his daughter. A bad guy would just ditch her period. Though he could be psyco that just want so see his daugther just to abuse her, but somehow I don't think that's the case. He could've been someone selfish in the past but over the years he might have matured.

My thoughts atm are along the lines of Aoki though. My mind is open for change and I think Aoki is the same.


I think the ideal situation would be that Rin lives with her father. Ofcourse with the thought that the father is a decent guy.

Last edited by 2H-Dragon; 2008-02-25 at 07:51.
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Old 2008-02-26, 19:27   Link #793
sumowow
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If it really is the beginning of the end of KnJ then its really disappointing. I don't think we've gotten enough character development for shirai and some of the others.

It would also be interesting if Shirai turned out to be Aoki's love interest instead of Houin. Although she's sort of cold, she is a women after all and she has shown some signs of *probably* liking Aoki. Such as the "Am i jealous?" comment she made a while back.
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Old 2008-02-27, 01:02   Link #794
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
I'm not sure what to think, but we really don't enough if we can call the father a bastard. First of all it would make no sense what so ever if they where actually married that the father would want to abort the child he had with his wife. So I think it's save to asume they weren't married.

If you somehow unintentionally get someone pregnant. Are you really so sure you wouldn't consider abortion? The guy might not even have the means to raise the child. Or just not ready yet to enter parrenthood. If the mother decides to have the child. He sudenly lost the right to see or care for his own flesh and blood? It might be even the case after the guy said to abort Rin, Aki dicided not to see or contact the father anymore.

Still if you look at it realistically. Rather then good or bad he might just be human. He wants to see his daughter. A bad guy would just ditch her period. Though he could be psyco that just want so see his daugther just to abuse her, but somehow I don't think that's the case. He could've been someone selfish in the past but over the years he might have matured.

My thoughts atm are along the lines of Aoki though. My mind is open for change and I think Aoki is the same.


I think the ideal situation would be that Rin lives with her father. Ofcourse with the thought that the father is a decent guy.
He had ten years to try and meet his daughter. So I don't think it's as rosy as you make it sound.
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Old 2008-02-27, 04:41   Link #795
2H-Dragon
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He had ten years to try and meet his daughter. So I don't think it's as rosy as you make it sound.
As I said maybe he just wasn't ready. Maybe he was busy starting up his carreer in those years. Maybe he thought he didn't have the right to see her, but finally gotten the resolve to make contact with his daugther. As I said he might be selfish, but he probably is a way better choise then Reiji.

I highly someone whould take the trouble to look for his daughter and getting a lawyer after 10years just to exploit a penniless kid...
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Old 2008-02-27, 13:32   Link #796
Anh_Minh
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Maybe he has changed. All I'm saying is, I'm not quite ready to trust him just yet. Before we've even seen him, or heard what he has to say for himself.
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Old 2008-02-28, 09:01   Link #797
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Maybe he has changed. All I'm saying is, I'm not quite ready to trust him just yet. Before we've even seen him, or heard what he has to say for himself.
As I said my mind is open for change. Still Aoki/Rin's situation will become fucked up if the dad isn't a good choice either. Since Aoki taking care of Rin isn't really a solution. >_>
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Old 2008-03-03, 19:24   Link #798
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Originally Posted by Lunar Archivist View Post
And, in Chapter 34, Rin has denied that he has sexually abused her in any way, so we still have absolutely no explanation for the "hickeys" and there is zero evidence, as Aoki admitted when he called that child services hotline to try and report Reiji.

The Lunar Archivist
I like your analysis, overall, but here I have to argue with you. Aoki may have no solid evidence, but we as observers really do (See page 116, Ch 19 and the last few frames of Ch 32). Beyond that, for an abused child to lie about/re-interpret a trusted adults actions as innocent is standard reaction; the logic runs something like this: "Reiji loves me; he wouldn't hurt me; so he can't be doing something wrong"; her response is almost textbook. Rin's explanation for the marks is clearly a lie, and her opinion of Reiji's attitude toward her is completely wrong; it will take some Deus ex Machina to put Reiji in the clear. He may not yet have had intercourse with Rin, but the evidence foe sexual molestation is pretty well overwhelming. Once again, I do agree that Aoki doesn't have access to all the evidence, but we as outside observers do.
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Old 2008-03-04, 00:39   Link #799
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I like your analysis, overall, but here I have to argue with you. Aoki may have no solid evidence, but we as observers really do (See page 116, Ch 19 and the last few frames of Ch 32). Beyond that, for an abused child to lie about/re-interpret a trusted adults actions as innocent is standard reaction; the logic runs something like this: "Reiji loves me; he wouldn't hurt me; so he can't be doing something wrong"; her response is almost textbook.
Would you be surprised to find that I agree with your interpretation? The fact of the matter is that I have little to no doubt that Reiji was responsible for the hickeys and that that's what they are. The reason I'm erring on the side of caution is because Watashiya is pretty infamous for throwing red herrings in the mix. It took Aoki more than half a dozen chapters to figure out he had a father's love for Rin rather than a pedophilic lust for her. I don't personally see how she could write her way out of this one, but she's surprised me before.
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Old 2008-03-04, 23:26   Link #800
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Originally Posted by Lunar Archivist View Post
Would you be surprised to find that I agree with your interpretation? The fact of the matter is that I have little to no doubt that Reiji was responsible for the hickeys and that that's what they are. The reason I'm erring on the side of caution is because Watashiya is pretty infamous for throwing red herrings in the mix. It took Aoki more than half a dozen chapters to figure out he had a father's love for Rin rather than a pedophilic lust for her. I don't personally see how she could write her way out of this one, but she's surprised me before.
Actually, I'm not really surprised; we all have our own pet theories, but it does seem that most of us agree on the basic outline, at least. That being said, if she can pull it off, I'll be impressed
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