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Old 2008-02-27, 05:49   Link #681
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Well, and when you find out they don't really match, it is intellectually dishonest to try and say that the non-matching scenario fits by twisting its observation.
With all the inconsistencies everywhere, it's hard to determine what is what without lots of handwaivium.

Quote:
Go ahead. Get the whole series of frames around that one too - probably in the end you'll grab a maximum of 10 frames - and please, don't JPEG - definitely NO color subsampling. PNG, PNG, PNG.
I'll do it tomarrow, or tomarrow night for you. And yes I know, PNG.

Quote:
Let's clarify "pretty small". Quite frankly, by now you should begin to know your limitations in estimating things like size and range from eyeball alone - your 300m target is only at most ~100m. Your "BVR" proves to be 8px wide.
I think the hole kind of speaks for itself. It's freakin' large. It's not just a few body widths of Nanoha... it's big enough to drive a truck through... Or rather, several of them, side by side. It's a plot shot for sure, but it's a freakin big hole, and Nanoha is freakin small in the hole.


Quote:
Pre-analysis commentary says that airports are generally not built high, so the beam's total run is likely to be relatively short.
It's already a pretty funky airport from what I've seen. Multi-story spiral staircases? (Or approximates. Episode two shows Gin wandering in something that's over eight levels high and greater...) Two monstrous towers extending WAY above the rest of the facility? (One control Tower maybe a few stories up I can see. But if TSAB HQ is any indication, these are more of the fancy supertowers...)
I don't think going with 'Its an airport' will be enough. We need to make observations. This ain't your average airport. (Hell, it ain't even LAX.)

Quote:
BTW, you seem awfully enthusiastic about longer ranges and higher velocities
Probably because I'm hell bent on stretching this 'superior' magic as far as our calcs can get it. I'd rather play Nanoha to the stronger end of measurements. At least then we could suspend the belief that the TSAB has the combat superiority over conventional arms to maintain its authority and policies. At least have her able to hit targets at a range equal to a typical grenade launcher in a similar amount of time. Since her average busters display around grenade level force. (Her top end busters kind of do their own thing as required by plot.)

Be kind of sucky if one day she was sent on assignment to round up some mass weapon users and thought she was going to have minimal problems, only to find THESE on guard... the hard way. Yeah, out-ranged, hit before she realizes she's under attack, and while Protection Powered may keep a hit or three off, that won't stand up against automatic fire delivering the same nasty explosive force to her over and over again several times in one second. Barrier jackets may allow you to slam through concrete, but you don't come out of that exactly smiling and shrugging it off. Rapid Fire Grenade spam gets messy.

If she can at least hit as far out, and as fast as those (Even with a handicap on her recycle rate.), I'd call her superior on acounts of being able to fly, and create a shield.
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Old 2008-02-27, 08:27   Link #682
arkhangelsk
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OK, the scene has been analyzed.

First, the approximate height of the building they are in. Frame 7501 shows that it is about 7 floors (Ground + 6). Figuring about 3m or a little less (Frame 7745 suggests the ceiling isn't all that high), the building is around 20m tall. This is convenient, because in the exterior shots, the main building is around 20m tall. In other words, in the distance plane of the building, 1pixel = about 1m.

The shot was compressed to its smallest size on Frame 7765 and released on 7766. The beam gets off to a great start, easily making well over Nanoha's height in just one frame. For brevity, let's call it at least 2m in 1/30th of a second, which goes to 60m/s.

But then, the beam slows down. It doesn't make its way out till 7806, some 40 frames later. There was a scene cut, but according to you, cuts do not equate major time manipulation, so let's try taking it straight first Averaging that says the progress is in the region of 20^2+20^2=P^2 (Pythagorean's theorem, and quickly assuming Nanoha's beam is set at a ~45 degree angle). So 800^0.5=28.3m. 28.3m in 40 frames ... about 3/4 m/s. Maybe it spent some time drilling its way through, but the ceiling doesn't look quite thin (Frame 7943 and similar) - one should expect Nanoha to punch clean through it. So, if I'm to take this at face value, very shortly after the initial boost phase, Divine Buster settles into a cruising regime of horrible slowness

Now, once the beam gets to the exterior, it advances very rapidly. In fact, from 7806 to 7812 (6 frames), it moves in the region of 495m, or about 2475 meters per second.

Nice and fast, but way inconsistent with the other measurements. However, since the major difference b/w this and the other examples examined so far is that the shot hit something first, I suggest that the slower shot velocities to be the speed of the Midchildran round's propulsion, and what we saw in the external shot is the speed of the (directional charge?) warhead blast. This is consistent with real weapons, where the speed of propulsion is generally much slower than the speed of the warhead's explosive blast.

This, of course, also has some consequences for the future direction of Mid magic weapons development. Or perhaps we can create an OC world of mages, which is not that different from Mid magic ... except that they use the "explosives" for the propulsion of their magic weapons, along with good weapons design (ergonomics!), gives them murderous speed and range in comparison to most Mid mages. Wait ... I claim this idea. Oh good. I don't have OC characters yet, but with this I might just be able to build a OC World.
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Old 2008-02-27, 09:17   Link #683
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
This, of course, also has some consequences for the future direction of Mid magic weapons development. Or perhaps we can create an OC world of mages, which is not that different from Mid magic ... except that they use the "explosives" for the propulsion of their magic weapons, along with good weapons design (ergonomics!), gives them murderous speed and range in comparison to most Mid mages. Wait ... I claim this idea. Oh good. I don't have OC characters yet, but with this I might just be able to build a OC World.


VEDA agrees. And you've just discovered the secret behind the WMDevices, which also means...

[You've witnessed too much...]

Go ahead, that way people won't attack you for not being a poster. Do accept my apologies on his behalf.
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Old 2008-02-27, 09:43   Link #684
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I'm not buying beams = grenades. Blood Daggers can tear a crater 4 lanes wide in a street. And that's with the blast occurring above-ground.
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Old 2008-02-27, 09:59   Link #685
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He may mean grenade power in term of concussion-based damage. Kinda like Cyclops' Optic Blast. It would explain why no one befriended by Divine Buster has been desintegrated.
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Old 2008-02-27, 10:26   Link #686
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'Magic Damage' is actually the term used for magic that doesn't target the body, but the magic supply in ones body, rapidly depleting it and causing exhaustion.
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Old 2008-02-27, 12:43   Link #687
Kikaifan
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
He may mean grenade power in term of concussion-based damage. Kinda like Cyclops' Optic Blast. It would explain why no one befriended by Divine Buster has been desintegrated.
Since he's talking about grenade volleys being able to defeat magical defenses I think he means in overall power vs barriers/barrier jackets.
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Old 2008-02-27, 12:50   Link #688
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Yes, Grenade Launcher.

As in:

Spoiler for Like a Mk 19:


Eh... Mass Weapons are HAXX.
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Old 2008-02-28, 00:05   Link #689
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Probably because I'm hell bent on stretching this 'superior' magic as far as our calcs can get it. I'd rather play Nanoha to the stronger end of measurements. At least then we could suspend the belief that the TSAB has the combat superiority over conventional arms to maintain its authority and policies. At least have her able to hit targets at a range equal to a typical grenade launcher in a similar amount of time. Since her average busters display around grenade level force. (Her top end busters kind of do their own thing as required by plot.)

Be kind of sucky if one day she was sent on assignment to round up some mass weapon users and thought she was going to have minimal problems, only to find THESE on guard... the hard way. Yeah, out-ranged, hit before she realizes she's under attack, and while Protection Powered may keep a hit or three off, that won't stand up against automatic fire delivering the same nasty explosive force to her over and over again several times in one second. Barrier jackets may allow you to slam through concrete, but you don't come out of that exactly smiling and shrugging it off. Rapid Fire Grenade spam gets messy.

If she can at least hit as far out, and as fast as those (Even with a handicap on her recycle rate.), I'd call her superior on acounts of being able to fly, and create a shield.
Well, speaking personally, I've got two counteracting pressures inside. The first is similar to yours. The second is that I've established the first calc, and further I'm so disappointed in TSAB competence in general now I'm rather masochistically enjoying the thought of it being weak. Hopefully, the two pressures cancel each other out and allow me to keep a good overview.

On a strategic level, however, even proving Nanoha has some speed and range has little relevance. Because Nanoha is not the numbers. Nanoha is ONE person. Mages in her class or close to it are so ridiculously rare (according to canon events) that even if an entire city has to be sacrificed to kill one of them (say command guided nuclear air to air missiles), the TSAB will probably run out of elite mages faster than the defending civilization will run out of cities.

And once those elites are gone, we are back to the mages that make up the bulk of the TSAB army, and we all saw their "capabilities". Frankly, it isn't even a matter of capabilities anymore. If the defenders of the HQ run away at the relatively benign sight of Gadgets, how am I to believe those same folks won't run at the much more menacing sight of a tank, leaving aside whether they can engage such a target.

Those guys don't even know how to take cover. Note when Nakajima (and he's supposed to be one of the better commanders) deployed them exposed on the main road when they should be taking advantage of the building cover (since Gadget fire is relatively low powered, the buildings should provide some protection) so they don't have to split between raising shields (Not always successfully) and firing. At least they didn't break and run...

As for bolt velocity and range. Definitely not that great there either. After StrikerS One can easily why they hadn't tried to "administer" Earth yet. It'll either involve terror bombing (from orbit, or the precious elite mages risk being lost to nuclear or even conventional SAMs - they might streak in too fast to successfully defend) or a heavily disparate loss ratio in a direct fire fight between their Ground Force infantry (which is the bulk of what they have) and modern weaponry.
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Old 2008-02-28, 00:38   Link #690
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I still contend that they aren't as stupid as the anime makes them out to be. 7arcs just has no sense of tactical ability.
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Old 2008-02-28, 01:06   Link #691
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I hear you there. But I want to put some kind of decent level excuse up there.

As it stands. The Administration Beaurau governs X number of worlds. And it has been expressly stated that whenever the TSAB finds Mass Weapons, they go to great lengths to stamp them out.

In order to 'stamp' something out... you must have either really full on cooperation, or the means to enforce your authority, or some medium of both. If there is little to no cooperation from a faction, and the faction has weapons that outstrip everything the TSAB has save for cruisers (or potentially, has ships that make cruisers look like pop guns.), how does the TSAB expect to handle it?

I see a couple of different options.

1 - TSAB have more strong cards hidden between cannon than we think, and we need to really anylize every aspect to find it. (Some offside magics less related to combat show you can get some clever tricks thrown up. Movement magics that hurl things the size of a 747 right into space... But power measurements have been inconsistent in actual combat magics.)

2 - TSAB really are as pathetic as we see in cannon, and only have their position by virtue of luck and well played negotiation. (It would hold support that The Three Admirals did some really good work in the Pioneering days, and Regius having to deal with rampant crime problems as a result of an administration system that has severe problems maintaining its Control status of dissenters.)

3 - TSAB deal in many underhanded moves behind the scenes al la NERV and SEELE. (The Council actually kind of mimiced SEELE's no image monolith communications with their conversations with Regius.)


Anyway, if 2 ends up being part of the case... here's a theory as to why.

Mid Childa successfully reached a time similar to Earth around WW I or II, but with magic, developed tech solutions far faster than Earth did on pure tech alone. They reached the nuclear age much faster, and as a result, developed powerful weapons before their mindset had evolved to deal with it.

Thus, when they hit their War to End all Wars... it wasn't with just machine guns, trench warfare, and that kind of thing. It was an all out nuclear or near nuclear exchange that shredded the planet and shocked the survivors into throwing down their weapons.

Since they never had a tech and tactical equal to WWI, or WWII (Skipping straight to our visions of WW III), they never progressed their doctrine past Nepolionic tactics, never developed the complicated warfighting and battle strategies using conventional weapons, like we have today.
Even Regius shows it with his fixation on his Einharijar project. If what you told me was right... a big building with big guns on it. That's Battleship thinking, or even thoughts similar to a Maginot Line... only incomplete and was proven futile by tech and tactics that had already evolved past it.


That would explain why the TSAB seems to be mentally handicapped at least when it comes to tactics and strategy, and why they could allow someone like Jail, to lead them on for so long before they FINALLY got him.

As an example, for the entire plot of strikers... If I knew a threat that keeps launching armies of drones that are becoming more and more difficult to beat over time was on Mid CHILDA, and I was in charge? There would be a cruiser in orbit 24/7. Someone would always be on watch to mark drone appearances, their locations, and attempt to find any kind of pattern or consistant appearance location... And if I found one, I'd be dropping an Arc on the location if at all possible to do so without affecting anyone else.

The magical doctrine equal to an arty strike.

But I at least want to stretch Nanoha and mages in general as far as possible to give the TSAB 'SOME' credibility.

Anyway, I'll have to go after those frames for you later. I'm kind of warn out today. I had to get a tire on my car replaced, got the oil change and everything else done while I was at it, and then went straight from there to work.
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Old 2008-02-28, 11:19   Link #692
Kikaifan
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I don't think you would want to Arc anything on your own planet unless the alternative was complete annihilation. Same principle they were applying against the Book on Earth. Sure, magic tends to be 'clean' by default and not have a lot of secondary effects, but we're still talking a weapon that makes the RDS-220 look like a damned firecracker.

But yeah, orbital weapons as the mainstay of planetary defense would make a lot of sense since their high-end naval tech is where they really shine. Though I guess the way you guys approach these speculation sessions the fact that they don't exist implies that they aren't viable, either technically or politically.

Leaning to the latter, since the TSA and Midchildan army have always struck me as just being police forces that happen to have huge guns in reserve because they occasionally need to police lostech that can kill planets. Einharijar was an attempt to apply huge guns to planetary defense, but it was Regius' pet project and being army I doubt he'd put the whole thing in another service branch's hands by putting it in orbit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagerou View Post
I still contend that they aren't as stupid as the anime makes them out to be. 7arcs just has no sense of tactical ability.
I like 'blame the writers, pretend it wasn't like that' too.
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Old 2008-02-28, 16:56   Link #693
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That's what I like about the real military. Sure they have their pride for branches, but sheesh. If the army needs the Air Force to drop the bombshell, they don't hesitate to call it in. And if someone needs the Navy to start giving the enemy a taste of Cruise Missiles. The Navy is HAPPY to oblige, and the Army is happy their guys aren't on the recieving end. As it looks, the TSAB forces have a real problem about working as a Joint Task Force outside of crisis situations.
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Old 2008-02-29, 00:48   Link #694
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This is something that I intend to touch on during Prelude to Alpha; Franz writes a paper on the Marine Air Ground Task Force and how the concept can be adapted to the TSAB; the paper is savaged and rejected and Franz curses the idiots in the TSAB.

On another note... perhaps with the abandoning of conventional weapons, the TSAB also abandoned the tactics associated with those weapons? Hence why we've got great idiocy. (though I kinda like ATC's final war option better.)

...no, the fact that the Japs generally suck ass on this kind of reseach and that the JSDF doesn't buy into the whole idea of JTF doesn't count.

I think the only way the TSAB is going to ever move towards a JTF-style sctructure is if a TSAB Marine Corps were to be introduced, with all the Marine aspects: Navy ships, Marine Air, Marine Ground, etc.

But yes, primarily, the TSAB are more to police forces. Nakajima's deployment of the 108th Ground Batt makes no freakin' sense for deploying a combat unit.

Riot cops, on the other hand...
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Old 2008-02-29, 09:19   Link #695
Kikaifan
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Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Huge vans, a big line of guys all trying to stop some other guys from moving down a street... all it needed was some tear gas. And the drones trying to loot some stores.
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Old 2008-03-03, 11:37   Link #696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
'Magic Damage' is actually the term used for magic that doesn't target the body, but the magic supply in ones body, rapidly depleting it and causing exhaustion.
I'm thinking "Rasp" and "Soul Sphere" from Final Fantasy...
Spoiler for A little light rubbish:


Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Well, speaking personally, I've got two counteracting pressures inside. The first is similar to yours. The second is that I've established the first calc, and further I'm so disappointed in TSAB competence in general now I'm rather masochistically enjoying the thought of it being weak. Hopefully, the two pressures cancel each other out and allow me to keep a good overview.

On a strategic level, however, even proving Nanoha has some speed and range has little relevance. Because Nanoha is not the numbers. Nanoha is ONE person. Mages in her class or close to it are so ridiculously rare (according to canon events) that even if an entire city has to be sacrificed to kill one of them (say command guided nuclear air to air missiles), the TSAB will probably run out of elite mages faster than the defending civilization will run out of cities.

And once those elites are gone, we are back to the mages that make up the bulk of the TSAB army, and we all saw their "capabilities". Frankly, it isn't even a matter of capabilities anymore. If the defenders of the HQ run away at the relatively benign sight of Gadgets, how am I to believe those same folks won't run at the much more menacing sight of a tank, leaving aside whether they can engage such a target.

Those guys don't even know how to take cover. Note when Nakajima (and he's supposed to be one of the better commanders) deployed them exposed on the main road when they should be taking advantage of the building cover (since Gadget fire is relatively low powered, the buildings should provide some protection) so they don't have to split between raising shields (Not always successfully) and firing. At least they didn't break and run...

As for bolt velocity and range. Definitely not that great there either. After StrikerS One can easily why they hadn't tried to "administer" Earth yet. It'll either involve terror bombing (from orbit, or the precious elite mages risk being lost to nuclear or even conventional SAMs - they might streak in too fast to successfully defend) or a heavily disparate loss ratio in a direct fire fight between their Ground Force infantry (which is the bulk of what they have) and modern weaponry.
Oh well...you know how the TSAB is...They are surprisingly backward for being so ahead. Space-time travel without the weapons to fit is just...too stupid for me to comprehend. I don't know what they think they are. If anything, though, they are the intergalactic version of the UNPROFOR in Bosnia.

For Urban Warfare, they should all get a platoon-based Wide-Area-Search ACS probe, good cover, and fire those commanders! The first one to get them a good view, the second one to get them good protection, and the third one to get them to avoid up-there blunders. If not, I'd take Rainbow or the 300 as my team any day over the average TSAB battalion.

For Shields, they should use those Holtzmann "flicker-fire" shields they have in Dune. Much more effective, I tell you, in case of an attack. Why they didn't think of that even after so long, I will never know.

For administering Earth, they should just forget it. The moment those military scientists get their hands on just one battleship, or just one device, or (horror of horrors) just one elite mage, inter-dimensional/galactic/time-space-frequency hell is gonna break loose if they fail. Not a good risk to take, unless they are willing to switch to Covenant tactics, and use orbital bombardment.

And about the elites, I can't count the times that I'd formulated downright evil, wicked and sadistic schemes to completely wipe the TSAB clean of elites, and then slaughter everything else while they watch. I'll admit that I've kicked the habit already, but you had my evil blood boiling up again back there, I'll admit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
I hear you there. But I want to put some kind of decent level excuse up there.

As it stands. The Administration Beaurau governs X number of worlds. And it has been expressly stated that whenever the TSAB finds Mass Weapons, they go to great lengths to stamp them out.

In order to 'stamp' something out... you must have either really full on cooperation, or the means to enforce your authority, or some medium of both. If there is little to no cooperation from a faction, and the faction has weapons that outstrip everything the TSAB has save for cruisers (or potentially, has ships that make cruisers look like pop guns.), how does the TSAB expect to handle it?

I see a couple of different options.

1 - TSAB have more strong cards hidden between cannon than we think, and we need to really anylize every aspect to find it. (Some offside magics less related to combat show you can get some clever tricks thrown up. Movement magics that hurl things the size of a 747 right into space... But power measurements have been inconsistent in actual combat magics.)

2 - TSAB really are as pathetic as we see in cannon, and only have their position by virtue of luck and well played negotiation. (It would hold support that The Three Admirals did some really good work in the Pioneering days, and Regius having to deal with rampant crime problems as a result of an administration system that has severe problems maintaining its Control status of dissenters.)

3 - TSAB deal in many underhanded moves behind the scenes al la NERV and SEELE. (The Council actually kind of mimiced SEELE's no image monolith communications with their conversations with Regius.)


Anyway, if 2 ends up being part of the case... here's a theory as to why.

Mid Childa successfully reached a time similar to Earth around WW I or II, but with magic, developed tech solutions far faster than Earth did on pure tech alone. They reached the nuclear age much faster, and as a result, developed powerful weapons before their mindset had evolved to deal with it.

Thus, when they hit their War to End all Wars... it wasn't with just machine guns, trench warfare, and that kind of thing. It was an all out nuclear or near nuclear exchange that shredded the planet and shocked the survivors into throwing down their weapons.

Since they never had a tech and tactical equal to WWI, or WWII (Skipping straight to our visions of WW III), they never progressed their doctrine past Nepolionic tactics, never developed the complicated warfighting and battle strategies using conventional weapons, like we have today.
Even Regius shows it with his fixation on his Einharijar project. If what you told me was right... a big building with big guns on it. That's Battleship thinking, or even thoughts similar to a Maginot Line... only incomplete and was proven futile by tech and tactics that had already evolved past it.


That would explain why the TSAB seems to be mentally handicapped at least when it comes to tactics and strategy, and why they could allow someone like Jail, to lead them on for so long before they FINALLY got him.

As an example, for the entire plot of strikers... If I knew a threat that keeps launching armies of drones that are becoming more and more difficult to beat over time was on Mid CHILDA, and I was in charge? There would be a cruiser in orbit 24/7. Someone would always be on watch to mark drone appearances, their locations, and attempt to find any kind of pattern or consistant appearance location... And if I found one, I'd be dropping an Arc on the location if at all possible to do so without affecting anyone else.

The magical doctrine equal to an arty strike.

But I at least want to stretch Nanoha and mages in general as far as possible to give the TSAB 'SOME' credibility.

Anyway, I'll have to go after those frames for you later. I'm kind of warn out today. I had to get a tire on my car replaced, got the oil change and everything else done while I was at it, and then went straight from there to work.
Napoleonic Tactics? Like the square and fixed artillery positions? No wonder all their enemies are getting a superiority complex. And I thought Nanoha was a tactical instructor who came from Earth, and went to cram school. In that case, Wilde was right when he said that "education produces no effect whatsoever." Even my lil' sis knew of WWII-grade tactics when she was like, what, ten? Those Aces aren't really changing anything: they just created a unit that was a pioneer in TSAB tactics (e.g. Teana = urban warfare pioneer), but it got disbanded. Let's just pray the TSAB keeps the success of infiltration and tactical strike force strategems in mind, shall we? *crosses fingers*

The real reason is possibly a combination of 2 and 3.

1) is out of the question because you know, when your Ground and Air HQ is under threat of desolation from some hugely upgraded Imperial Destroyer with armor thicker than that of an AT-AT against maula pistols, what with even a SS level mage failing to mess it up from the outside, I think they would have better sense than to send their ever-late fleet to the scene, and rely on a string of insane risks to preserve their poor elites who are risking their necks down there. If I were the TSAB and I had something like the Ion Cannon handy, I'd just press the red button already. Another example would be that of the Book of Darkness incident. I'm very sure there were cases before of its use and misuse, and I'm wondering why if the TSAB were so great, did they need a Gil Graham, a Hayate and a lot of elites, and once again the eponymous Arc-en-ciel to win the day, again? Either they're useless or they think that ordinary Lost Logia is like "no kick man." In the first case, I say too bad. In the second case, I think they're just batshit crazy.

2) The 3 Admirals are currently resting on their laurels thinking "we're so great", and I'm currently so exasperated by it that I'm toying with the idea of letting them rest eternally already with their predecessors in bone-headership, the three-man High Council. And Regius is a shady character himself. He shouldn't rant on and on about Justice if he subverts it himself, what with murdering a unit under you for the sake of a cover up. What X number of worlds, if they couldn't handle it, they should have opted for more controllable growth, instead of trying something so huge and then cheesing so many people off. The wise government only angers those worth angering.

Even in that age, I think socio-anthropologic theories still existed, right?

And you'd think that after being screwed up by so many things in the past, they'd learn something. But noooo, they cover it up, and wait for some random girl to discover her new-found power and to master their technology and totally start raising hell down there. Now that's what I call pathetic: an intergalactic consortium of high-tech, high-civilization-level needing the help of a bunch of girls who hail from some un-administered planet...

3) is probably right, although I'm thinking that the High Council was way too arrogant for its own good, and the 3 Admirals are taking their retirement too seriously. The High Council already has its brains spilled by a single Cyborg, a fitting end for a bunch of deluded fools. The 3 Admirals? Ha, I'll bring them out of retirement soon enough, and I'll even let them buy the farm! Ain't I the nice guy...

Spoiler for some stuff for ATC:


Sheesh.

Now that my rant is over, I'm slightly similar to Goose in the sense that tactics will feature heavily in my fic as well. Anyway Goose, I feel right sorry for Franz, I know what it's like to have your innovations smashed to pieces by big cheeses that just refuse to budge...

Spoiler for Tactics, tactics:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Huge vans, a big line of guys all trying to stop some other guys from moving down a street... all it needed was some tear gas. And the drones trying to loot some stores.
I really laughed like crazy for a bit imagining the scene...too bad it doesn't happen, and drones don't have nictitating membranes on their keystone sclerotic coats, so tear gas wouldn't work. They could just flip on magnetic resonance or infrared or something, and then the tear gas would have been pointless.
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Old 2008-03-03, 15:54   Link #697
AdmiralTigerclaw
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All those drones... and nobody has an electrical transformer to overload.

Anyone remember how that worked in Small Soldiers?
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Old 2008-03-03, 18:02   Link #698
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Haha, Small Soldiers.

Quote:
Napoleonic Tactics? Like the square and fixed artillery positions? No wonder all their enemies are getting a superiority complex. And I thought Nanoha was a tactical instructor who came from Earth, and went to cram school. In that case, Wilde was right when he said that "education produces no effect whatsoever." Even my lil' sis knew of WWII-grade tactics when she was like, what, ten? Those Aces aren't really changing anything: they just created a unit that was a pioneer in TSAB tactics (e.g. Teana = urban warfare pioneer), but it got disbanded. Let's just pray the TSAB keeps the success of infiltration and tactical strike force strategems in mind, shall we? *crosses fingers*
Joking aside, I was serious when I said they're police. They don't need any of that crap.

What do the TSA and Army do? They investigate and apprehend criminal mages, seal Lost Logia, and perform disaster relief. They have no enemies to get a superiority complex. There's nothing wrong with their education because they're educating their mages to face the kind of threat they actually encounter with any regularity, criminals. Of course their rank and file employ simple strategies of containment and their elites train for individual combat ability and small unit tactics; they don't expect to ever face an enemy army, just individuals or small groups of enemies who will only be dangerous if they have great personal power.

The only thing that can threaten them on a large scale is Lost Logia, and Lost Logia aren't something you can take with an army either. As with criminals, timely response and investigative ability trump warfighting ability. If it can be sealed, a small group with a good understanding of that particular task is sufficient; if not it's probably time to break out a superweapon.

Seriously, why is it so bad that they aren't a conventional army? As far as we know they have a total monopoly on interdimensional travel. Who's going to invade them? Scaglietti had to be brought in and sponsored by their own government to become a threat. Why would they waste the money?

Quote:
Another example would be that of the Book of Darkness incident. I'm very sure there were cases before of its use and misuse, and I'm wondering why if the TSAB were so great, did they need a Gil Graham, a Hayate and a lot of elites, and once again the eponymous Arc-en-ciel to win the day, again?
Because nobody could do anything about the Book without Hayate. Period.
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Old 2008-03-03, 19:05   Link #699
Kha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
All those drones... and nobody has an electrical transformer to overload.

Anyone remember how that worked in Small Soldiers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
Haha, Small Soldiers.
Just a thought: EMP bombs are banned, and an EMP probably have the same effect on more complex Devices like Intelligent and Unison. Canon has declared them to be rather sensitive to damage.
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Old 2008-03-03, 20:06   Link #700
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post

Seriously, why is it so bad that they aren't a conventional army? As far as we know they have a total monopoly on interdimensional travel. Who's going to invade them? Scaglietti had to be brought in and sponsored by their own government to become a threat. Why would they waste the money?
If Fate could jump to the Garden of Time without any TSAB sponsors, what stops rogue factions from setting up major installations? Jail could hide a cave lab in the TSAB's own back yard with probably half the intelligence department searching for him. Hiding something like that on random remote world #346 would be easier, and if the faction knows more than typical anime villain, they'd be able to build a formidable army for themselves. The Human Race is not exactly a stunning display of greatness people want to believe.


Hell, one wrong move and random inhabbited but Unadministered world becomes your greatest enemy. All it would take, is one loyalist to that planet to get inside knowledge and do a spy run.

As a totally random what-if scenario... think of what would happen if Nanoha suddenly, by act of random omnipotent being, became disenchanted with the TSAB, and decided to deliver all the information she knows to the JSDF, or the US Military. Imagine nobody picked up on this because this is Nanoha...

Now imagine five years later, the USA launches a Dimensional Warship of its own, only it's not some front firing Cruiser thingie, but a dimensional battleship and carrier, equipped with both magic, and devastating conventional abilities. How does the TSAB react to this?

If the TSAB pushes to enforce their protocall on this situation, they're going to find the US is more stubborn and won't let that sit. This will build tension, the US may think that the TSAB is more capable based on Nanoha's old information, and start arming seriously. Tensions will mount to a head, and if sparks fly, and the TSAB hasn't reacted in some predictable fashon and remains caught in beaurocratic quagmire, they'll get run over by the US's new Dimensional Supercarrier fleet, and hoards of conventional soldiers backed by not so monopolized magic.

The TSAB are the big boys on the block, only because they're the ONLY boys on the block. Add more people to the interdimensional block, and before long, the usual jockying for X nations best interest will inevitably lead people down paths to full scale war. It is human nature. I can see this situation without it actually being a normal possibility, and I would want to be prepared for it in case any portion of a similar scenario appeared.

What if we meet another more militant interdimensional faction?
What if they show up one day over Mid Childa with a bristling warship?

What if it's a world we've monitored, that has achieved magic power, but refuses to recognize out authority?

History shows that it is better to prepare for the war that may never happen while hoping it never occures, than to dismiss it as impossible and not bother with it.

As they say, hope for the best, plan for the worst. The TSAB fails at this.
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