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Old 2008-02-28, 18:33   Link #1081
winter45
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Well im a anti-CE fan supporter but.... its music to my ears at work when i hear GRAHAM CAN PWNZ KIRA WITHOUT A GUNDAM!!!! from the new generation of Gundam fans (Gundam 00)
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Old 2008-02-28, 20:53   Link #1082
Dean_the_Young
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Puh-leez.

Master Asia could beat Kira with just towel.
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Old 2008-02-28, 21:10   Link #1083
winter45
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Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young View Post
Puh-leez.

Master Asia could beat Kira with just towel.
I lose in ths debate I accept defeat.....
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Old 2008-02-29, 04:27   Link #1084
Sir Dearka
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Aah... Master Asia was just an old geezer :P

I've met a couple of my friends yesterday to whom I once managed to show a couple of SEED episodes for the start. They are all hard-working 26-year-old people like me. Lawyers, bankers, businessmen and economist. And you know what. They all have watched it, loved it, and they all have at least one model kit from the series. I think, despiter the statistics, it has nothing to do with age or profession, essentially. Just approach. I admit that it was pretty much the only Gundam show they've ever watched but still... maybe it's not that bad for some of those who passed their teenage years already

I just thought about the title of this thread. I suppose Gundam SEED would be considered a trilogy if the movie OR a more-than-10 episode series was released, huh?

And a question to those more familiar a bout the differences and similarities between CE and UC... Does a CE Dom somehow differ from an UC Dom? (Except the pilots)? To me, they seem all the same, but I have no time, nor opportunity to look at them closer. I've saw somewhere a "Dom trio" model kit pack so I kinda wonder whether getting this one would be much cheaper than just buying all three "SEED" HG 1/144 versions.
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Old 2008-02-29, 08:16   Link #1085
Spitfire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post

And a question to those more familiar a bout the differences and similarities between CE and UC... Does a CE Dom somehow differ from an UC Dom? (Except the pilots)? To me, they seem all the same, but I have no time, nor opportunity to look at them closer. I've saw somewhere a "Dom trio" model kit pack so I kinda wonder whether getting this one would be much cheaper than just buying all three "SEED" HG 1/144 versions.

The Original Doms never had beam shields. Also, there's some differences in the operation of the chest mounted weapon(The Troopers emits some kind of energy field or something, while the Dom's is a beam scatter gun)

Their main weapons also differ. The Dom's weapon is just simply a Bazooka, while the Trooper uses some sort of bazooka/beam rifle combo weapon. There's also some slight differences in regards to overall design.
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Old 2008-02-29, 13:28   Link #1086
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
The Original Doms never had beam shields. Also, there's some differences in the operation of the chest mounted weapon(The Troopers emits some kind of energy field or something, while the Dom's is a beam scatter gun)

Their main weapons also differ. The Dom's weapon is just simply a Bazooka, while the Trooper uses some sort of bazooka/beam rifle combo weapon. There's also some slight differences in regards to overall design.
Oh, I see. Thanks.

Wow, that's a lot of differences. Bandai sure wants to rip the money out of our wallets...
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Old 2008-03-01, 10:12   Link #1087
Eidolon Sniper
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Hell yeah, Master Asia.

Hmm, since Sir Dearka brought it up, how do ZAKU in CE differ from UC? Do UC ZAKU have acronyms for their names?

@ Sir Dearka

So what does SEED and Destiny have that make them unique? This could be said about other Gundam shows, again, but really, they're just similar takes on one another.

@ 4Tran

"...given the geopolitical situation in SEED/Destiny etc."...hmm, what exactly did this have to do anything with what you were answering Dean_the_Young with? anyway, I was just saying that the current political situation in CE is not really going to be dynamic at all if there is a third series or movie unless the entire story was rehashed to accommodate the "evils" done in the 2 CEs.
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Old 2008-03-01, 10:21   Link #1088
Spitfire
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Hell yeah, Master Asia.

Hmm, since Sir Dearka brought it up, how do ZAKU in CE differ from UC? Do UC ZAKU have acronyms for their names?
No, Zaku means nothing in UC. While there are some acronyms present in UC, it isn't the ridiculous overload we had in CE.

CE Zaku's use those lame wizard packs, whereas UC Zaku's do not, although there are various weapon configurations for them.
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Old 2008-03-01, 10:45   Link #1089
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
@ 4Tran

"...given the geopolitical situation in SEED/Destiny etc."...hmm, what exactly did this have to do anything with what you were answering Dean_the_Young with?

I was pointing out where the Cosmic Era shows were similar to UC ones and the progression of that similarity:
Seed = reminiscent of Mobile Suit Gundam
Seed - end of first coul = starts diverging
Destiny = very different from anything UC
End of Destiny = difference from UC is even more pronounced; because of "the geopolitical situation at the end of Destiny"


By the way, if you're going to quote someone, you should at least copy and paste it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
anyway, I was just saying that the current political situation in CE is not really going to be dynamic at all if there is a third series or movie unless the entire story was rehashed to accommodate the "evils" done in the 2 CEs.
Why? And does this have anything to do with any of my points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
No, Zaku means nothing in UC. While there are some acronyms present in UC, it isn't the ridiculous overload we had in CE.
I have to agree with you there. The acronyms in the Cosmic Era shows are almost as annoying as the ones used by real militaries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
CE Zaku's use those lame wizard packs, whereas UC Zaku's do not, although there are various weapon configurations for them.
What's so lame about wizard packs? Conceptually, they're used the same way we use modern hardpoints.
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Old 2008-03-01, 10:55   Link #1090
Spitfire
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post


What's so lame about wizard packs? Conceptually, they're used the same way we use modern hardpoints.
It was neat when it was just the Strike using weapon packs...but it soon got to the point where almost EVERY suit could use wizard/striker packs of some kind. It really lessened the originality of them.
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Old 2008-03-01, 11:38   Link #1091
Sir Dearka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
@ Sir Dearka
So what does SEED and Destiny have that make them unique? This could be said about other Gundam shows, again, but really, they're just similar takes on one another.
I wrote it like a j=hundred times in this topic: I think it is the mood and character designs that make SEED unique. Most of the previous Gundam shows had quite similar, more realistic look to them in juxtaposition to CE's colorful and generally more infantile style (big starry eyes, etc.). And most previous Gundam shows didn't have this much of an air of J-teenage soap drama in them, even in the supposed "boysbanish" Wing.

The extreme change in the mood and designs were so exceptional in the franchise that it lead to CE being one of the series which lured many non-Gundam fans into the Gundam world, actually. And brought this awful so-called "schism" between the n00bie-at-that-time new generation of SEED fans and the devoted old-generation-purist Gundam fans.

I can see that since you ask the same questions all the time while my answers are just the same in my posts, maybe to you the uniqueness of SEED may not be that apparent, but to me the series really stands out in the whole G-multiverse because of the two traitsI mentioned above.

---

As for ZAKU, I prefer the CE ones more in terms of designs. And I like Wizard packs.

Though as far as MSes are considered, there is a visible overload of Gundams in the show which I myself perceive as quite annoying. Especially with Destiny broadening the main cast with each of its members having one or two Gundam MSes on the course of the whole show.
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Old 2008-03-01, 11:46   Link #1092
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
It was neat when it was just the Strike using weapon packs...but it soon got to the point where almost EVERY suit could use wizard/striker packs of some kind. It really lessened the originality of them.
That's like complaining that too many mobile suits have beam weapons. Isn't the point of testing ideas on a prototype to figure out how effective it is and to implement it in mass produced models?
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Old 2008-03-01, 11:52   Link #1093
Spitfire
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
That's like complaining that too many mobile suits have beam weapons. Isn't the point of testing ideas on a prototype to figure out how effective it is and to implement it in mass produced models?
Sure. I just didn't like it. I myself prefer specialized MS.
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Old 2008-03-01, 11:59   Link #1094
Eidolon Sniper
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@ 4Tran

Um, I said, if it was found on other pages, I will copy and paste them. I was answering to the post you made on the same page, so sorry I didn't take time to do that. I thought you understood. Also, Destiny is not Zeta in any way? Stellar and Destroy Gundam will like to have a word with you.

So what makes the difference in the UC and CE again?
  • UC has (MSG) Federation and Zeon = (Z) the beginnings of Neo Zeon, AEUG and Titans (where do i put Federation in here? >.>;; ) = (ZZ) Neo Zeon and Federation again (is this what they're called? haven't watched ZZ yet it's too hard to find it here in the Philippines)
  • CE = (beginning of SEED) EA and ZAFT = (end of SEED) EA, ZAFT, TSA = (beginning to middle of Destiny) EA, ZAFT, CF = (end of Destiny) = EA, ZAFT, CF + Orb (+ other random factions we may not yet know about)

If EA = Federation and ZAFT = Zeon, then there is not much of a difference in here. Unless of course you count the incident of the complete "wipeout" of the EA by the end of Destiny and leaving the members of CF and Orb in major positions of power, and have power over EA as well, in the sense that they've now taken complete control of the EA sphere of power as well. There's nothing too different in the way SEED/Destiny and the UC were presented, they followed roughly a similar path altogether, but the way they attempted to tell it is different. I also stated in my earlier post that all Gundam shows are similar, if it comes to that, but the way they were interpreted by the directors were different. It's not because they have different stories, it's just that Gundam shows present all facets of the war in different aspects, but essentially, they still retain the Gundam prerequisites in spite of all the difference the directors try to inject (as well as the writers) into each Gundam series.

Saying what happened at the end of Destiny is of course, totally different from what happened from what happened at the end of Zeta, Shinn didn't become a vegetable, Shinn just lost 2 significant important women in his life, there was no CE Jerrid (unless the other 2nd gen Extended accounts for this ), there was no CE Minerva Zabi manipulated by a CE Haman Khan, etc., etc. ... but some aspects of Zeta did happen, like Stellar being compared to Four Murasame (and maybe Lunamaria = Fa in a way), Kira = Amuro that had a cameo/returning role in Destiny (do not hit me with rotten tomatoes for this ToT it's just a comparison), for one thing Dullindal gave me Scirocco vibes somewhat, the concept of a better CPU from MSG or was it Zeta (in here they're called as Extendeds), plus the homage to Hyaku Shiki, the DOMs, the ZAKU...plus of course, the horrible acronyms.

I am pretty sure Zeta also has its similarities with MSG, but the point is, the directors (Tomino and Fukuda) tried to present that in a different light. Similar stories, different aspects of war. That is just what I was basically trying to say with the analogy I did with, plus saying that the CE way of ending the Zeta 2.0 that was part of the many mantras that some UC fans say it is was just a little too overboard as well. In that aspect, any attempt of trying to create another CE story based on what has happened in the SE IV would just be totally ;________; because the Clyne Faction and Orb have actually shut the door on anyone that would probably be attempting to do some war on humanity again.
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Old 2008-03-01, 14:26   Link #1095
Sir Dearka
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@Eidolon Sniper - I wonder if you actually really watched at least some major parts of SEED or Destiny. Because I have this feeling that despite you knowing all the storyline details, you seem not to understand my point which mostly circles not around the plot (which, as we know, is FULL of homages to the MSG and Z, but still has its different conclusions and numerous unique subplots), but more around aesthetic aspects like the style of drawing, overall atmosphere/mood and conventions. I never questioned what you ultimately said: that "Gundam shows present all facets of the war in different aspects, but essentially, they still retain the Gundam prerequisites in spite of all the difference the directors try to inject (as well as the writers) into each Gundam series". It is true. But still, I wanted others to see why I think that this difference aspect make CE series stand out among other Gundam shows.

And well, yeah, putting other evaluations aside, the Kira= Amuro comparison... I think that Yamato's role in Destiny was significantly greater than Amuro's in Zeta, which is a bad thing for CE. In Zeta, the "new protagonist" Kamille had such great character development... whilst Shinn's development was screwed up in the second half of the series. This is when Kira breached the boundary of what I understand as "cameo". He became a friggin' main protagonist, stealing away much of the spotlight from Shinn.

Last edited by Sir Dearka; 2008-03-01 at 14:44. Reason: I always write "spider" instead of "sniper".... :P
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Old 2008-03-01, 15:25   Link #1096
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
So what makes the difference in the UC and CE again?
UC has (MSG) Federation and Zeon = (Z) the beginnings of Neo Zeon, AEUG and Titans (where do i put Federation in here? >.>;; ) = (ZZ) Neo Zeon and Federation again (is this what they're called? haven't watched ZZ yet it's too hard to find it here in the Philippines)
CE = (beginning of SEED) EA and ZAFT = (end of SEED) EA, ZAFT, TSA = (beginning to middle of Destiny) EA, ZAFT, CF = (end of Destiny) = EA, ZAFT, CF + Orb (+ other random factions we may not yet know about)
This would be the part that's sort of similar: the setting for Seed is a direct parallel to Mobile Suit Gundam. However, the pivotal role played by both Orb and Lacus' supporters means that the geopolitical situation plays out very differently. Case in point: the death of the EA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
Saying what happened at the end of Destiny is of course, totally different from what happened from what happened at the end of Zeta, Shinn didn't become a vegetable,
<SNIP>
This doesn't matter too much since Shinn isn't particularly similar to Camille. In Seed, there are 2.5 characters that bear any great similarity to their counterparts in Mobile Suit Gundam. In Destiny, unless one is counting the nonsubstantitive elements, there is only one character of this sort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper
n that aspect, any attempt of trying to create another CE story based on what has happened in the SE IV would just be totally ;________; because the Clyne Faction and Orb have actually shut the door on anyone that would probably be attempting to do some war on humanity again.
Why? Why is it impossible to tell a story like this? And why does another story have to be about someone "attempting to do some war on humanity again"? Is it so impossible to tell some other kind of story?
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Old 2008-03-01, 15:34   Link #1097
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Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
Exactly. I just don't understand this whole fuss... Why so much hate. What for? Some people really should just give up and let others live with their tastes and preferences. The main problem here is a gap in mentality, I suppose. The majority of CE fans are just kids who tend to irritate their fellow-G-fans with their enthusiastic blabber about SEED/Destiny. Those irritated anti-CE people consider themselves to be more "grown up" and "mature" in their preferences and just could not bare yet another "immature child" yappping its praising cliches or some runt throwing his mindless: "Kira ownz all!". They retaliate to such, I admit, somehow childish and naive approach, with anger and so the whole cycle of hatred starts.

My advice to the more "mature" Gundam fans is... be TRULY mature, guys. And truly mature person just forgives or ignores those whom they consider to be childish (like I do it with D-KLAC). When a person shows that he is outright rude, we should blame the man, not the series he likes.

And hey... SEED ownz all and Kira ownz all... but it's just me

Here's something to lighten up the mood and milden the divides:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUBMTiIk-qc

hoi sino ako si D-KLAC ?!

besides i'm very personal with GS & also i agree that GS is unique besides it display a serious/mature/personal side of gundam series.

well even despite gundam fans are spilt in half for GS but still the series known as gundam seed series show a new meaning of gundam series.
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Old 2008-03-02, 03:47   Link #1098
Eidolon Sniper
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Dearka View Post
...but more around aesthetic aspects like the style of drawing, overall atmosphere/mood and conventions. I never questioned what you ultimately said: that "Gundam shows present all facets of the war in different aspects, but essentially, they still retain the Gundam prerequisites in spite of all the difference the directors try to inject (as well as the writers) into each Gundam series". It is true. But still, I wanted others to see why I think that this difference aspect make CE series stand out among other Gundam shows.
Yes I did see the CE contrary to what my posts seem to insinuate. But the tiny difference that you speak is only aesthetic, and the way the Amuro aspect was handled in Destiny (but this aspect was major). Story wise, it is just similar to the recurring Gundam theme, except it was handled differently by the director and showed another aspect of war. I was just asking you what makes SEED unique, and you answered them already (Hirai's designs) ; I was just asking you if you think that beside this fact, is there any other factor that makes SEED and Destiny unique than its other predecessors.

@ 4Tran

Quote:
This doesn't matter too much since Shinn isn't particularly similar to Camille. In Seed, there are 2.5 characters that bear any great similarity to their counterparts in Mobile Suit Gundam. In Destiny, unless one is counting the nonsubstantitive elements, there is only one character of this sort.
The crew of the Argama would like to have a word with you. this is Zeta VS Destiny aka Zeta 2.0 in some respect for some UC fans. Of course, SEED is MSG 2.0, but despite the fact, the homages are all over the place, even if they are named rather differently. You just said it yourself that SEED was a parallel of MSG. Shinn wasn't apt to punching anyone because he hates it when people think his name is girly, but he had the same hot temper that Kamille had when it came to his superior officers (recall when Bright BRIGHTPUNCHED him along with other bridge bunnies on the bridge of the Argama); the higher officers didn't BRIGHTPUNCH him however, so I guess that was why Shinn became who he was at the end of Destiny. Athrun, however, Athrunslapped him, so this takes the place of the BRIGHTPUNCH.

Spoiler:

...and other which could be put in this list, too many others to mention. >.>;;

Quote:
Why? Why is it impossible to tell a story like this? And why does another story have to be about someone "attempting to do some war on humanity again"? Is it so impossible to tell some other kind of story?
Well, since Gundam stories are always to some effect a war story, it will always be like that. What would be the point of tryin g to fit in an 18 meter tall robot in a story with no war, and to sell all its models?
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Old 2008-03-02, 04:59   Link #1099
Sir Dearka
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Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post
Yes I did see the CE contrary to what my posts seem to insinuate. But the tiny difference that you speak is only aesthetic, and the way the Amuro aspect was handled in Destiny (but this aspect was major). Story wise, it is just similar to the recurring Gundam theme, except it was handled differently by the director and showed another aspect of war. I was just asking you what makes SEED unique, and you answered them already (Hirai's designs) ; I was just asking you if you think that beside this fact, is there any other factor that makes SEED and Destiny unique than its other predecessors.
Beside the mood/air, teen j-drama convention and "only" aesthetic aspects? No. At least not among the things that I consider really major groundbreaking differences. Notice that SEED differs MUCH from MSG in practically everything except basic plot skeleton and, as in Destiny, the use of some mecha designs. That's why I consider SEED to be unique among other G-franchise. Not only it is a big homage to original series, but the aesthetic form, which, unlike u seem to impute with the use of word "only", is a CRUCIAL trait here, IMO.

As for your analogies for characters:

Quote:
* Murrue, Talia = female Brights, but weren't that Bright enough (Noah Bright the captain)
* Natarle = female Bright done right, but was killed off
* Athrun, Mwu (as "Neo"), Rau = some parts of being an CHAR, Athrun also inherits Amuro's talents in creating robot pets (Haro) and Bright as well (because of the Athrunslap)
* Kira = not Amuro Rei enough (except Kira got some of Amuro's talents in designing)
* Fllay = an Lalah, some Beltorchika thrown in for good measure ("Beltorchika chasing Amuro in Zeta" kind of Beltorchika), Chan, but was killed off
* Cagalli = Minerva Zabi (oh crap I just realized that just now )
* Lacus = just wasn't that Haman enough
* ZAFT Supreme Council = ZEON, Neo Zeon
* EA = Federation
* Dullindal = Scirocco
* Shinn = he just wasn't that Kamille enough ;____;, also, a bit of a Katz for letting Rey-Sarah influence him
* Lunamaria = just wasn't that Fa enough either
* Stellar = just wasn't that Four enough either ;____;
* Rey = Sarah
* Meer = Reccoa
* Sting, Auel, Orga, Clotho, Shani = random CPUs
* Djibril, Azrael = random Federation bigwigs
* random Archangel/Minerva bridge bunny/hangar crew =White Base/Argama bridge bunny crew/hangar crew
* Archangel = not that White Base enough
* Minerva = not that Argama enough
* Akatsuki = Nu Gundam + Hyaku Shiki
* Strike Freedom = Quebeley (+ Gundam Double X)
You seem to merge and mix the traits of the characters in such a careless way that I really don't see a strong analogy here. I can also say that Kira is like Luke Skywalker, Kagalli is like Leia, Athrun+Mwu is a mixture of Han Solo+Biggs+Obi-Wan, Rau is like the mixture of Boba Fett and evil Anakin Skywalker, Djibril and Azrael are some "random Imperial bigheads" and Dullindal is like a younger Emperor, but not "Palpatinish" enough etc. And hence SEED is a rip-off of Star Wars. Does it sound convincing to you? If it does, then no wonder our opinions differ. If we'll start to argue about such things, I think that such discussion leads to nowhere but a waste of time.

I think you basically understand what I mean. If not, then I probably don't have enough writing skill, nor time to put it simpler to you.
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Old 2008-03-02, 07:02   Link #1100
winter45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eidolon Sniper View Post

Spoiler:

...and other which could be put in this list, too many others to mention. >.>;;



Well, since Gundam stories are always to some effect a war story, it will always be like that. What would be the point of tryin g to fit in an 18 meter tall robot in a story with no war, and to sell all its models?
ROFL!!!! Eidolon Sniper nice compairings I never though about it in this detail

Thx for the read
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