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Old 2008-03-03, 21:27   Link #701
Avatar_notADV
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Like we've said, the TSAB is designed by people whose experience with the military is the JSDF. That is to say, the TSAB is a self-defense force in almost the same mold; law enforcement, disaster relief, a jobs program for people with a certain type of inclination.

That works for the Japanese government and society, but primarily because the US is there; Japan, as part of the US security umbrella, doesn't really need powerful forces of its own (and in fact, developing them would be counterproductive, as the US would probably reduce its own deployments in the area.) Nobody else is really competing with the US, so it's not essential that Japanese military strength be developed - and staying non-nuclear was Japan's only real hope of coming out of a multinational nuclear exchange intact.

The TSAB has a different environment, though. If there's a big protector keeping everyone else off their back, the series definitely doesn't mention it; thus, probably not. The implication is that they're the only game in town. Possibly true - it would take a lot of infrastructure to match their Navy, and they're not totally blind. That kind of security arrangement would call for something more like the British Imperial Navy than the JSDF...

One other point - there's absolutely no combat continuity in the TSAB. No mention of unit continuity, no glorious martial heritage, no traditions, no patriotism. No "why we fight" moment - the characters are there because of their personal ambitions, desires, and quirks, and there's no common purpose beyond that. That's -freakin' odd- for a military, but the JSDF is closer to it than anything else.

Nanoha and the others make a lot of other mistakes that help give you the feeling that the writers just weren't familiar with any "real" militaries, and thus winged the whole thing, without really having the background to appreciate the problems their structure would encounter. Well, it's not a terrible thing, that we've created a world in which such people can exist and not know any better... ;p But it does tend to kneecap your magical girl military realism, if that term isn't a contradiction in and of itself.

It'd be interesting to design a rival organization "the right way", though. What special challenges would a militarized magical society face? Yes, yes, peace through superior firepower, but there really are unique challenges presented by the situation; you couldn't just throw Nanoha and Fate and Hayate into the 101st without giving everybody involved fits.

(More to the point, it'd be more interesting to talk about that than harping continually on the shortcomings of Nanoha from a pragmatic standpoint...)
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Old 2008-03-03, 21:29   Link #702
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
If Fate could jump to the Garden of Time without any TSAB sponsors, what stops rogue factions from setting up major installations? Jail could hide a cave lab in the TSAB's own back yard with probably half the intelligence department searching for him. Hiding something like that on random remote world #346 would be easier, and if the faction knows more than typical anime villain, they'd be able to build a formidable army for themselves. The Human Race is not exactly a stunning display of greatness people want to believe.
It is still not what they do 99% of the time.

Quote:
As a totally random what-if scenario... think of what would happen if Nanoha suddenly, by act of random omnipotent being, became disenchanted with the TSAB, and decided to deliver all the information she knows to the JSDF, or the US Military. Imagine nobody picked up on this because this is Nanoha...
Here's where the real rules about technology come in. Tk3997 discussed it with Kagerou and Wild Goose when they made Erusia in the OC thread. To put it simply, they won't succeed because the tech gap will be too great, especially since we hadn't even made the first step in scientifically identifying magic or the existence of other dimensions. Further, Nanoha, who is not even an engineer, won't be able to tell them anything technically useful (and even if she is realistically she can only have expert knowledge on one field), which makes an impossible task further off... All she can do is get Earth to intensify research on weapons.

They won't be able to invade us without lots of indiscriminate bombing to make up for their tactical nonexistence, but we aren't going to invade them anytime soon unless entire inftact warships are given to us. Even then, we'll only be able to use them until the first major magitech system requires maintenance.

(Pure speculation here, but when a world gets advanced enough it might just be able to, like the Erusians, eventually squeeze something out of accidentally contacted magitech, they go from "Non-management" to "Observation Candidate"). That's when they start to sweat...

Now here's another thought. We all agree that the TSAB pretty much had to suppress tactics to get that dumb.

Perhaps that was their war-suppression plan...

After all, tactics are the best chance for the weaker side to pull a fast one over a stronger side. If no one even has tactics as a concept, then battle becomes a crapshoot. The stronger side will win by dint of N-square (not counting the inevitable factor of luck). Since the TSAB is presumably the strongest power, anybody acting up won't even dream they can beat them.

Further, the suppression of tactics also suppresses the arms race. A lot of weapons are created to satisfy certain tactical requirements mandated by certain tactical visions. Remove thinking on military matters and you reduce this.

Of course, all this kind of falls apart when one guy like Scarlietti doesn't play by the rules, but while the illusion holds, a kind of peace can be retained. They are exchanging unpreparedness against the unknown factors we think of for increasing the probability of peace in the known factors.

At least, that was the original vision about 75-150 years ago. Now, no one in the TSAB controlled zone even really understands what's as stake.
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Old 2008-03-03, 21:30   Link #703
Kha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Like we've said, the TSAB is designed by people whose experience with the military is the JSDF. That is to say, the TSAB is a self-defense force in almost the same mold; law enforcement, disaster relief, a jobs program for people with a certain type of inclination.

That works for the Japanese government and society, but primarily because the US is there; Japan, as part of the US security umbrella, doesn't really need powerful forces of its own (and in fact, developing them would be counterproductive, as the US would probably reduce its own deployments in the area.) Nobody else is really competing with the US, so it's not essential that Japanese military strength be developed - and staying non-nuclear was Japan's only real hope of coming out of a multinational nuclear exchange intact.

The TSAB has a different environment, though. If there's a big protector keeping everyone else off their back, the series definitely doesn't mention it; thus, probably not. The implication is that they're the only game in town. Possibly true - it would take a lot of infrastructure to match their Navy, and they're not totally blind. That kind of security arrangement would call for something more like the British Imperial Navy than the JSDF...

One other point - there's absolutely no combat continuity in the TSAB. No mention of unit continuity, no glorious martial heritage, no traditions, no patriotism. No "why we fight" moment - the characters are there because of their personal ambitions, desires, and quirks, and there's no common purpose beyond that. That's -freakin' odd- for a military, but the JSDF is closer to it than anything else.

Nanoha and the others make a lot of other mistakes that help give you the feeling that the writers just weren't familiar with any "real" militaries, and thus winged the whole thing, without really having the background to appreciate the problems their structure would encounter. Well, it's not a terrible thing, that we've created a world in which such people can exist and not know any better... ;p But it does tend to kneecap your magical girl military realism, if that term isn't a contradiction in and of itself.

It'd be interesting to design a rival organization "the right way", though. What special challenges would a militarized magical society face? Yes, yes, peace through superior firepower, but there really are unique challenges presented by the situation; you couldn't just throw Nanoha and Fate and Hayate into the 101st without giving everybody involved fits.

(More to the point, it'd be more interesting to talk about that than harping continually on the shortcomings of Nanoha from a pragmatic standpoint...)
I just love how Tech thread keeps raising points for me to fix in Rebuilt of StrikerS.

Too bad I'm being hampered by my writing ability...

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Here's where the real rules about technology come in. Tk3997 discussed it with Kagerou and Wild Goose when they made Erusia in the OC thread. To put it simply, they won't succeed because the tech gap will be too great, especially since we hadn't even made the first step in scientifically identifying magic or the existence of other dimensions. Further, Nanoha, who is not even an engineer, won't be able to tell them anything technically useful (and even if she is realistically she can only have expert knowledge on one field), which makes an impossible task further off... All she can do is get Earth to intensify research on weapons.

They won't be able to invade us without lots of indiscriminate bombing to make up for their tactical nonexistence, but we aren't going to invade them anytime soon unless entire inftact warships are given to us. Even then, we'll only be able to use them until the first major magitech system requires maintenance.

(Pure speculation here, but when a world gets advanced enough it might just be able to, like the Erusians, eventually squeeze something out of accidentally contacted magitech, they go from "Non-management" to "Observation Candidate"). That's when they start to sweat...

Now here's another thought. We all agree that the TSAB pretty much had to suppress tactics to get that dumb.

Perhaps that was their war-suppression plan...

After all, tactics are the best chance for the weaker side to pull a fast one over a stronger side. If no one even has tactics as a concept, then battle becomes a crapshoot. The stronger side will win by dint of N-square (not counting the inevitable factor of luck). Since the TSAB is presumably the strongest power, anybody acting up won't even dream they can beat them.

Further, the suppression of tactics also suppresses the arms race. A lot of weapons are created to satisfy certain tactical requirements mandated by certain tactical visions. Remove thinking on military matters and you reduce this.

Of course, all this kind of falls apart when one guy like Scarlietti doesn't play by the rules, but while the illusion holds, a kind of peace can be retained. They are exchanging unpreparedness against the unknown factors we think of for increasing the probability of peace in the known factors.

At least, that was the original vision about 75-150 years ago. Now, no one in the TSAB controlled zone even really understands what's as stake.
...and now someone handed me in concrete the plot basis for the Third Succession War (the first being the one after the pillar of Cephiro fell, the second when Belka gave way for TSAB).
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Old 2008-03-03, 23:35   Link #704
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While this talk of the TSAB's military competence is interesting and positive, it really should be moved to the Military discussion thread.
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Old 2008-03-03, 23:50   Link #705
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It should... it could...

...




It probably won't.

Natural progression of conversation from one point to the next is a pain in the rear.
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Old 2008-03-04, 01:28   Link #706
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
It should... it could...
...
It probably won't.
In that case, I'll post this here then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
It'd be interesting to design a rival organization "the right way", though. What special challenges would a militarized magical society face?
It doesn't need to be fully militarized, it only needs to be large enough.
I've got one, though I never got around to writting it down. I was thinking about what I could give an OC in the TSAB, then I thought, "Why should I give these to the Bureau?"

The resulting world has the following features, which I think are what's needed to give the Bureau a run for its money:

1. About 250 years before MC0000, the civilization on this world was in the early electric age and discovered a way to generate magical energy from electricity. As a result, they don't need high-powered mages to deliver high-power attacks. They use nuclear reactors, that can be small enough to mount on vehicles. Infantry have to make do with high capacity batteries.
2. This planet has three superpowers dominating a continent each. Sounds like Gundam 00, but I thought of it weeks before that detail was announced. Anyway, they're not friendly to each other, so they weren't dumb enough to stand down their conventional forces to replace them with magical ones like Mid-childa did.
3. As a result of 2, their magic weapons evolved to match modern weapons in speed, range and destructiveness. They've replaced non-magical weapons only where they've proven superior. Unlike the Bureau's which seem to use non-gunpowder weapons as a meterstick.

To keep them and the Bureau from commiting their full resources to destroying each other, I put this world over three years travel time in Dimensional Space from Bureau HQ.
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Old 2008-03-04, 04:18   Link #707
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
In that case, I'll post this here then.



It doesn't need to be fully militarized, it only needs to be large enough.
I've got one, though I never got around to writting it down. I was thinking about what I could give an OC in the TSAB, then I thought, "Why should I give these to the Bureau?"

The resulting world has the following features, which I think are what's needed to give the Bureau a run for its money:

1. About 250 years before MC0000, the civilization on this world was in the early electric age and discovered a way to generate magical energy from electricity. As a result, they don't need high-powered mages to deliver high-power attacks. They use nuclear reactors, that can be small enough to mount on vehicles. Infantry have to make do with high capacity batteries.
2. This planet has three superpowers dominating a continent each. Sounds like Gundam 00, but I thought of it weeks before that detail was announced. Anyway, they're not friendly to each other, so they weren't dumb enough to stand down their conventional forces to replace them with magical ones like Mid-childa did.
3. As a result of 2, their magic weapons evolved to match modern weapons in speed, range and destructiveness. They've replaced non-magical weapons only where they've proven superior. Unlike the Bureau's which seem to use non-gunpowder weapons as a meterstick.

To keep them and the Bureau from commiting their full resources to destroying each other, I put this world over three years travel time in Dimensional Space from Bureau HQ.
Sounds like a super-upgraded version of a certain non-administered planet somewhere...

Looks like everybody loves (killing) the TSAB in their dreams and fantasies. For me I did something a little nastier and sneakier rather than "outright planetary resistance", which I refuse to state as yet.
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Old 2008-03-04, 09:52   Link #708
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Continuation of a discussion on Lost Logia powers that started in the OC-thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
1) The ability was not actually demonstrated (and the original series actually came closest to making magic look impressive). We saw it grant a few wierd wishes and made a few monsters, the most impressive of which made a tornado of unknown size. Such monsters can be beaten by single mages. OK, they were pretty elite but it shows that they can be taken down by single humans, without heavy equipment (a device is "small-arms").
Do note that the Lost Logia were not even being used at those times. That's like saying a gun is harmless because all it did was fall of a shelf and hit someone on the head. As soon as Precia started actually using them Lindy had to come off her captain's chair and step in to stop her.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Even in the "historical pictures" shown, which may or may not reflect reality (after all, none of the characters involved had actually witnessed the mentioned event, so for all we know it is their over-active imagination formed from a lifetime of indoctrination regarding the dangers of Lost Logia and barely remembered ancient history), they were causing a few tsunamis which is bad (even to take out a civilization under the right circumstances) but is about a dozen orders of magnitude away from "World Destroying".
Concidering Lindy even says that 'many of its adjacent worlds were completely anihalated' I'd say it was hardly an exageration. The scenes also show an entire planet literally tearing apart (huge tears in the grounds with buildings the size of ants included).

Also, this 'exageration formed over a lifetime of indoctrination' is completely baseless. Lost Logia incidents happen even to this day, meaning that there is plenty of it in the news.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
In the end, all the hype caused a few special effects on Earth, but otherwise left it so untouched no one even panics! No one dies. I don't think anyone even remembered it for two days...
Yes, because the effects were stopped before they could become serious. It'd make a strange series if the heroes failed to save the day, wouldn't it?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
the next time we saw a Jewel Seed, it powered a Type III Gadget... does it look like something that in sets of 21 will be doing all the hype they promised?
Correction, we saw a tiny fragment of a Jewel Seed ingrained into a chip, not the entire seed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
2) Lost Logia are not all ranked the same. Some are safe enough that even the TSAB is willing to allow their sale at auctions...
Do clarify. If it was what Lutecia stole for Jail, we don't even know what that was.
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Old 2008-03-04, 10:21   Link #709
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Concidering Lindy even says that 'many of its adjacent worlds were completely anihalated' I'd say it was hardly an exageration. The scenes also show an entire planet literally tearing apart (huge tears in the grounds with buildings the size of ants included).

Also, this 'exageration formed over a lifetime of indoctrination' is completely baseless. Lost Logia incidents happen even to this day, meaning that there is plenty of it in the news.
Oops, my reading skills fail in the night-time, and I obviously didn't watch some eps very carefully

Yeah, watching Nanoha tells us that much about Lost Logia incidents. There seem to be way too many of them for anyone's good.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yes, because the effects were stopped before they could become serious. It'd make a strange series if the heroes failed to save the day, wouldn't it?
It would have been more fun they had left it to the last minute, instead of deciding it with a few minutes left to go, though. It was anticlimatic.

You can go see the main point of my reply to his rant on the OC.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Correction, we saw a tiny fragment of a Jewel Seed ingrained into a chip, not the entire seed.
Now, where did Jail get those from, eh? I thought Precia, like, disappeared into the some dimensional void or something...or was she not carrying the thing with her?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Do clarify. If it was what Lutecia stole for Jail, we don't even know what that was.
Well, it's definitely something that eventually got counter-copped by the TSAB following their ultimate victory.

Spoiler for Philosophical/Technological/Magical Underpinnings of the Formation of RF6:
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Old 2008-03-04, 11:32   Link #710
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Continuation of a discussion on Lost Logia powers that started in the OC-thread:

Do note that the Lost Logia were not even being used at those times. That's like saying a gun is harmless because all it did was fall of a shelf and hit someone on the head. As soon as Precia started actually using them Lindy had to come off her captain's chair and step in to stop her.
But they were clearly activated and running.

Quote:
Concidering Lindy even says that 'many of its adjacent worlds were completely anihalated' I'd say it was hardly an exageration. The scenes also show an entire planet literally tearing apart (huge tears in the grounds with buildings the size of ants included).
They are having a bad earthquake. Admittedly, it is pretty bad for a bunch of tiny seeds, but it isn't planet destroying.

The actual word used in the Japanese was 崩壊, which means "collapse", "breakdown" or "decay". It is actually a pretty broad term that can mean far more than annihilate.

Quote:
Also, this 'exageration formed over a lifetime of indoctrination' is completely baseless. Lost Logia incidents happen even to this day, meaning that there is plenty of it in the news.
Note that they had to search into ancient history to find a good example (Year 423 on the old calender (the new calendar was up to 65 or so, so that means it is something like 500 years ago). Lost Logia cause trouble everywhere but presumably really bad tragedies are very rare. Considering that entire really devastating wars have occurred in the meantime, the accuracy of records is doubtful. This is clearly dialogue, and the hearsay variant.

The point is that where we can observe the seeds, they clearly aren't nearly as l33t as promised.

Quote:
Yes, because the effects were stopped before they could become serious. It'd make a strange series if the heroes failed to save the day, wouldn't it?
Thus, you admit that you have absolutely no first-hand evidence for determining how bad it'll actually be .

Quote:
Correction, we saw a tiny fragment of a Jewel Seed ingrained into a chip, not the entire seed.
Fine. Does it look like 84 (or even 840) of those tiny "fragments" put together could "completely annihilate" worlds.

Quote:
Do clarify. If it was what Lutecia stole for Jail, we don't even know what that was.
IIRC, the place they are guarding is auctioning away Lost Logia. Since RF6 is guarding the place, it is clear that at least some Lost Logia are cleared for sale.
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Old 2008-03-04, 13:20   Link #711
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One points out that it was stated pretty bluntly that the Book of Darkness would absorb the entire world if not unchecked. Destroying Tokyo to kill it (temporarily) was a lesser-of-two-evils option, not a hysterical over-reaction to an imagined threat. No, Yuuno didn't actually see a world go foom, but given that by this point he's the expert on the Book outside of Reinforce herself (who doesn't contradict him), we can take it as settled fact.

One also points out that you don't know that the "old calendar" is a BC-type counting backwards. That's actually an unusual way to do it - the counting backwards would also be an artifact of the "new calendar", and the "old" calendar would reflect the previously-used dating system. Since the implication of that statement was that it was in some way influential in forming TSAB policy towards Lost Logia, it's sensible that it happened much closer to the TSAB's foundation than you've stated.

Keroko's right in that the manifestations of the Jewel Seeds that we see in the first season are entirely uncontrolled - the Jewel Seeds are not being manipulated by anyone with the least magic power (save Fate and Nanoha, who are busy sealing them, not unleashing them.) The one time we see some Jewel Seeds being intentionally used by a mage, Precia is attempting to open a pathway that involves destroying a dimension, and even the warming-up process is enough to cause an earthquake... in Uminari, in another dimension completely. It's not too much to surmise that (a) Precia-success would have spelled bad news for the Midoriya's cake sales, and (b) that the Jewel Seeds are packed full of punch for them who know how to use 'em.
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Old 2008-03-04, 19:17   Link #712
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
One points out that it was stated pretty bluntly that the Book of Darkness would absorb the entire world if not unchecked.
Given an appropriate amount of time, I'll grant that it can do so.

Quote:
One also points out that you don't know that the "old calendar" is a BC-type counting backwards. That's actually an unusual way to do it - the counting backwards would also be an artifact of the "new calendar", and the "old" calendar would reflect the previously-used dating system. Since the implication of that statement was that it was in some way influential in forming TSAB policy towards Lost Logia, it's sensible that it happened much closer to the TSAB's foundation than you've stated.
At the very least, it definitely was nowhere within the zone of the new calendar, or they simply have used it. Which means that it is still at least 75 years ago, way out of any of our character's direct observation.

Quote:
Keroko's right in that the manifestations of the Jewel Seeds that we see in the first season are entirely uncontrolled - the Jewel Seeds are not being manipulated by anyone with the least magic power (save Fate and Nanoha, who are busy sealing them, not unleashing them.)
How about Ep9, when Fate blasted the water - that's an activation by a mage right there.

Quote:
The one time we see some Jewel Seeds being intentionally used by a mage, Precia is attempting to open a pathway that involves destroying a dimension, and even the warming-up process is enough to cause an earthquake... in Uminari, in another dimension completely. It's not too much to surmise that (a) Precia-success would have spelled bad news for the Midoriya's cake sales, and (b) that the Jewel Seeds are packed full of punch for them who know how to use 'em.
Yes, and the anime tries to make it look impressive. However, the earthquake didn't even collapse any houses. Nobody even bothered to repair the earthquake damage to their houses as far as we can determine. Nobody even bothered to hide under their tables, as people generally are trained to do during a quake. Yes, it was pretty impressive it managed to cause the quake at all, but let's not give it too much credit.
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Old 2008-03-04, 19:56   Link #713
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This has probably been asked, but what is the TSAB's personal stance on using projectile weaponry? Such as making a Belka-style gun, like Tiana's, however, it is designed to fire actual bullets that are magically charged?
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Old 2008-03-04, 20:01   Link #714
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Fate didn't execute the Jewel Seeds in ep 9 - she just threw a hell of a lot of energy out there, and hoped that they'd reveal themselves with some sort of sympathetic reaction, which is what more or less happened, right? Fate wasn't trying to "summon waterspout" (duh). And once she'd set them off that way, she couldn't just turn them off - in fact, she wouldn't have managed to seal them at all without Nanoha for backup - so it's safe to say that they were doing their own thing and not in the least under Fate's control.

I have no idea exactly how much oomph it takes to make an earthquake in another dimension. Hell, making one HERE requires the same magnitude of energy release as several nuclear weapons, even if it's one that's too small to do much damage (and I suppose "distance to the epicenter" isn't a problem when the quake is occurring at right angles to reality, huh?) And it's not even what Precia was trying to do - just an incidental feature of her doing something even more difficult. And she didn't even manage it! So, yeah, okay, we're talking about nine seeds and the assist of all the power reactors in the Garden of Time (which was not, we can assume, greater than the effect of the additional five Jewel Seeds that Precia wanted.) But that's still one HELL of a punch!

By contrast, the show never gave the Relics that kind of power in Strikers. We don't ever see them unshielded, we don't really know what they're good for other than sticking into Vivio and (maybe) bringing back Lutecia's mom? (What'd Jail want with so many, anyway?) They're not so dangerous that Caro suffered ill effects from hiding one under her hat, even. So we can at least conclude that they're more stable than a Jewel Seed...
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Old 2008-03-04, 20:19   Link #715
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I believe Jail wanted a specific one, so he was going after any he could find.
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Old 2008-03-04, 20:33   Link #716
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Fate didn't execute the Jewel Seeds in ep 9 - she just threw a hell of a lot of energy out there, and hoped that they'd reveal themselves with some sort of sympathetic reaction, which is what more or less happened, right? Fate wasn't trying to "summon waterspout" (duh). And once she'd set them off that way, she couldn't just turn them off - in fact, she wouldn't have managed to seal them at all without Nanoha for backup - so it's safe to say that they were doing their own thing and not in the least under Fate's control.
It was 強制発動, not just 共鳴. She hadn't set any instructions on how they should manifest the powers, but she did turn them on and we can take a good look at what they are doing.

Quote:
I have no idea exactly how much oomph it takes to make an earthquake in another dimension. Hell, making one HERE requires the same magnitude of energy release as several nuclear weapons, even if it's one that's too small to do much damage (and I suppose "distance to the epicenter" isn't a problem when the quake is occurring at right angles to reality, huh?) And it's not even what Precia was trying to do - just an incidental feature of her doing something even more difficult. And she didn't even manage it! So, yeah, okay, we're talking about nine seeds and the assist of all the power reactors in the Garden of Time (which was not, we can assume, greater than the effect of the additional five Jewel Seeds that Precia wanted.) But that's still one HELL of a punch!
Hard to tell. As I said, they tried to make it look impressive, but Mercalli-wise it was a <5 based on how much damage it did. It is the "incidental feature" that decides how much it'll affect our world, and as far as we can see, not too much. Definitely doesn't look like the end of us...

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By contrast, the show never gave the Relics that kind of power in Strikers. We don't ever see them unshielded, we don't really know what they're good for other than sticking into Vivio and (maybe) bringing back Lutecia's mom? (What'd Jail want with so many, anyway?) They're not so dangerous that Caro suffered ill effects from hiding one under her hat, even. So we can at least conclude that they're more stable than a Jewel Seed...
Caro supposedly sealed it before putting it under her head, but no matter how you slice it, the Jewel Seeds do look like the more powerful LL.
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Old 2008-03-04, 20:52   Link #717
ghazghkull
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Caro supposedly sealed it before putting it under her head, but no matter how you slice it, the Jewel Seeds do look like the more powerful LL.
Well not necessarily powerful. Avatar did say that they're possibly more stable. However, just because it's stable, doesn't mean that it's any less powerful, it just won't go all funky on you due to being manhandled, such as raw energeon crystals compared to energeon cubes. (Those who are familiar with the Transformers reference will probably understand that :3)

Oh and can anyone please answer the question I had posted a few statements back?
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Old 2008-03-04, 21:01   Link #718
Nightengale
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Fine. Does it look like 84 (or even 840) of those tiny "fragments" put together could "completely annihilate" worlds.
I think we're talking something in the millions. If we consider what was zoomed into, aka a small wiring inside the drone, not to mention it is zoomed several times more inside the circuitry of it, it goes to imply that it's size is microscopic.

I'd say in the least, 1 Jewel Seed for 100,000 Drones. Not that Jail made that much of course.



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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
IIRC, the place they are guarding is auctioning away Lost Logia. Since RF6 is guarding the place, it is clear that at least some Lost Logia are cleared for sale.
Factor of danger.

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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
By contrast, the show never gave the Relics that kind of power in Strikers. We don't ever see them unshielded, we don't really know what they're good for other than sticking into Vivio and (maybe) bringing back Lutecia's mom? (What'd Jail want with so many, anyway?) They're not so dangerous that Caro suffered ill effects from hiding one under her hat, even. So we can at least conclude that they're more stable than a Jewel Seed...
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Caro supposedly sealed it before putting it under her head, but no matter how you slice it, the Jewel Seeds do look like the more powerful LL.
I think this part is ridiculously inconsistent with how Relic was pimped as some form of reallly l33t Hidden Class Lost Logia, but aside from that, both of them just works too differently. They're more like wireless card with a degree of contained power of its own to be set up to receive 'infinite' power from a wireless network that receives 'infinite' power from the moons, than something that holds a huge bundle of power on its own.

I think those Relics are supposed to matter after Jail wins, where he can spend his nice coffee hours to create more Saint bloodlines, or to modify living humans to be able to accommodate Relics, since canonically proper cloning is not so easy of a task.
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Old 2008-03-04, 21:24   Link #719
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
I'd say in the least, 1 Jewel Seed for 100,000 Drones. Not that Jail made that much of course.
At the rate they were going, even 2.1 million of those fragments don't look like they are going to be destroying worlds...

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Factor of danger.
Which goes back to what I said at the very, very beginning - not all LLs are made equal.

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I think this part is ridiculously inconsistent with how Relic was pimped as some form of reallly l33t Hidden Class Lost Logia,
The difference between soaring aspirations and limping reality is a constant (though unintentional) theme in MGLN...
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Old 2008-03-04, 21:47   Link #720
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It is the "incidental feature" that decides how much it'll affect our world, and as far as we can see, not too much. Definitely doesn't look like the end of us...
Ark, as Avatar and the others keep trying to tell you, that's because the process was stopped before it really begun! I don't get, they mentioned it several times, had Precia actually completed her task with the Seeds, it would have destroyed the planet. All the damage we did see was merely from the initial stage, the process hadn't really gotten underway before it was stopped. Yet you always ignore that, why? You don't think things couldn't have gotten worse had she not been stopped?
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