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Old 2008-03-04, 00:10   Link #41
Darklord_bg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
Sunrise is a funny studio. IMO, if you conveniently ignore the way they've dragged Gundam through the dirt over the last few years (and a few times even before that), they actually have a hell of a track record. It's just a pity that some of their worst titles have turned out to be the most popular ones, since they seem to have no qualms about milking a cash cow for all it's worth.
Well, Sunrise is a BIG studio. As such, they always work on many projects, so it's natural that some of them turn out bad. This is true for any studio by the way, but is less apparent for smaller studios because...smaller studios create fewer shows and as a result - fewer bad shows. Besides, the Gundam franchise is pretty much legendary - it's like Star Wars and the James Bond movies. I don't see why they should stop it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
As well as Kekkaishi Sunrise have also done s-CRY-ed, Inuyasha, Gintama & Yakitate!! Japan and I'm hoping like hell they pick up Mx0 sometime next year. Than you have stuff like Cowboy Bebop, City Hunter, Infinite Ryvuis and Planetes... yes Sunrise are mecha focused but take away every mecha title they have done and they are still a top studio. It's a pity one of their biggest fans here acts like Sunrise is a Rie Kugimiya who can only do tsundere roles
Thank you! I was just too lazy to come up with examples, but yeah - they take part in a large variety of shows, not just mecha.
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Old 2008-03-04, 00:14   Link #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
True this may be, but there aren't a great number of people that associate "mecha" with "character development". Hell, there's no reason why the two are mutually exclusive; FMP:TSR, for example, has some of the best examples of character development one can find in anime. But if you watch a character driven drama (those series people mistakenly call "slice-of-life") like Honey & Clover or Nodame Cantabile or even a lesser title (relatively speaking) like Asatte no Houkou or Hitohira, you'll almost certainly find some sort of character development since that's the whole point. Sure, the whole thing is just perspective, but the common perspective is that one is less likely to find good character development in a random mecha title because there's no obligation for a random mecha title to supply character development... just mecha.
Tell me something I don't know. Also I thought "Slice of Life" were now those series like Minami-Ke where the focus is on majority female casts engaging in antics. Whatever happened to those character driven dramas I love like Only Yesterday or My Neighbours The Yamada's? The other "Slice of Life". Now that I think of it I find it odd that I'm always going to mecha to get that kind of character driven dynamic as opposed to "Slice of Life". How does that make sense? And no don't answer that, I know I'm not crazy. More than likely it's all about a difference in the type narrative I enjoy. I don't really go for most Japanese comedy so that probably has a lot to do with my taste in anime.

Yes, perhaps as you say there is more than one misnomer going on in this thread than just Mecha as a genre.

@Westlo: Ahhhhh man give me a break already, are none of my quotes sacred. Obviously as I said it's a joke that they can only do mecha series. Maybe I'm also not as big a super fan of Sunrise as everyone makes me out to be. You wanna carry the torch? I'll be glad to wash my hands of the whole Sunrise apologist schtick.
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Old 2008-03-04, 00:15   Link #43
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Originally Posted by qtipbrit92 View Post
Also, I'm a fan of Clannad, but I personally have yet to learn why some characters have feelings for Tomoya. Fuko obviously doesn't, being the loli-moe-starfish character, Nagisa and Kotomi are easier to understand, but TsundereKyou and Tomoyo aren't.

The majority of anime categories are overexploited. I would say that almost every studio has had an attempt at slice-of-life/general comedy or drama/romance, and there really aren't as many mecha anime as you think there are (I personally know of maybe 30-40 mecha series that have any popularity at all), it's just that Sunrise really has nothing better to do than to keep releasing Gundam series.

Second, the appearance of any subgenre within a series will remove impact of many other subgenres within it. Take your example, Kimi ga Nozomu Eien. Almost pure drama and romance. There was even very, very little comedy included, mainly during its first two episodes.
Another example, Shakugan no Shana. I say it's a romance, some say it's an action, some say it's a slice-of-life, some say it's a drama. Obviously, mixing any genres will lessen the impact of any other genres within it.
Well Kyou likes Tomoya because she's known him as a friend for awhile, Tomoyo is the least explained, but it is quite apparent that she got attracted to his personality and demeanor.

Now to get back on topic..

I never said that other genres were not exploited, but I'm saying that the mecha anime category has been the worst one I've seen out there by far.

You're second point is what I was trying to say in the first place kind of... I think the theme/genre/subgenre or w/e of mecha lessens the impact of its said show because the main point of mech animes is usually the mecha so everything else is almost insignificant. YES there are exceptions, but 5-10% of exceptions won't make up for the other 90-95% out there in my eyes. It's kinda like when people make stereotypes about cultures. Of course not all people of that culture fit in the stereotype, but there are sure enough that do to make a stereotype idea spread throughout people's minds. Mecha is like dividing by zero, you'll aways get zero.
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Old 2008-03-04, 00:20   Link #44
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Sunrise are my fav studio Kaioshin along with Madhouse but I'm way too negative of them to carry any torch lol. I just found it amusing thay you were saying "finally the myth of Kugimiya doing only Tsundere will die" and than go and make a post typecasting Sunrise as a mecha only studio.. nothing maliouis in it, just amused.
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Old 2008-03-04, 00:40   Link #45
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I'm not sure where this discussion is going, but I'm with other genres making a specific genre less prevalent, which is why there's a mecha anime among my top ten.

Anyhow, I'm glad to not participate in the bulk of this discussion.
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Old 2008-03-04, 00:40   Link #46
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Sunrise has always been in the top of my list of favourite animators, as I consistently enjoy what they make. Still though, even I feel they make too much mecha shows, and wish that they start diverging a bit. What's worse is that they have proven themselves out of the mecha genre, and yet they still very rarely stray away from it. They've got maybe 10 shows out of their entire lineup that ain't mecha, and that's what annoys me most about them.

I mean, even take Code Geass. Did it have to be mechas that revolutionized modern warfare? Or Zegapain... would it change the plot whatsoever if they changed the way of engagement from mechas to say, space fighters? Sometimes I feel that for Sunrise, they put mecha in the show just for the sake of having mecha. But then again, if a large portion of their fanbase are those who's into the mechas, I guess it ain't such a bad business maneuver to input it in if it doesn't affect anything at all other than increased figure and dvd sales.
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Old 2008-03-04, 00:48   Link #47
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Originally Posted by Sorrow-K View Post
True this may be, but there aren't a great number of people that associate "mecha" with "character development". Hell, there's no reason why the two are mutually exclusive; FMP:TSR, for example, has some of the best examples of character development one can find in anime. But if you watch a character driven drama (those series people mistakenly call "slice-of-life") like Honey & Clover or Nodame Cantabile or even a lesser title (relatively speaking) like Asatte no Houkou or Hitohira, you'll almost certainly find some sort of character development since that's the whole point. Sure, the whole thing is just perspective, but the common perspective is that one is less likely to find good character development in a random mecha title because there's no obligation for a random mecha title to supply character development... just mecha.

I don't think anyone's going to argue that the high school setting for romance series isn't a cliche. Why this particular cliche doesn't get berated in the same way as the common mecha cliches, I'm not sure. Maybe people, myself included, have had better luck finding good series within that particular subgenre than in mecha. Experience informs intuition.

I don't really agree with this at all. A well made anime should be able to blend aspects from different genres together in such a way that they all complement each other. See Bokura ga Ita for a near perfect mix of drama, comedy and romance, or Nodame Cantabile for a slightly different but just as effective mix of the same things. Full Metal Panic mixes romance and action fairly well (although I can't be the only one who wishes they'd handle the romance slightly better), while Higurashi has a weird mix of comedy and horror, and yet somehow pulls it off. If an anime contains a mix of things taken from different genres, and they don't work together, that's a flaw of that particular anime. There's nothing inherently wrong with mixing genres if the people doing the mixing know what they're doing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklord_bg View Post
To add to that, Sunrise has done may other shows that are not mecha-related. It's a huge studio with many different good projects, so to stereotype it by saying it does only mecha shows is overgeneralizing a lot.
I agree, though their only recent (I'll say last five years?) popular works not having to do with mecha were Mai-HiME and Mai-Otome, and to a lesser extent, Gintama.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklord_bg View Post
Besides, if there is any genre that is beaten to death recently, it harem/visual novel adaptation. There's an average of 1 mecha series per anime season for the last two years, while at least 6-7 eroge adaptations. So, mecha is in no way overexploited, at least no more thatn other genres. Double standards again...
No idea where you pulled these statistics from.
Especially about eroge adaptations, I'd say that your statistics are very off. From what I can remember, and a bit of help from other sites -
The gigantic Fall '07 season had around six: Clannad, Da Capo II, Ef - A Tale of Memories, Kimikiss ~Pure Rouge~, Myself; Yourself, and Prism Ark. Two of them weren't eroge games, and Myself; Yourself's visual novel was released months after its anime began airing (I'm also quite sure it wasn't eroge, too.)
Summer '07 had two: Nanatsuiro Drops, and School Days .
The large Spring '07 season surprisingly only had two: Kono Aozora ni Yakusoku wo, and Touka Gettan. (I think there were at least five mecha anime, too.)
And Winter '06/'07 had a startling one: Shuffle! Memories. I believe there were at least two mecha series, so I would say that there the number of mecha series premiering in Winter '06/'07 was at least twice as many as the number of eroge adaptations.
That's around eleven eroge adaptations in one year. Unless 2006 had 37, I doubt your statistics are even close.
(Of course, if I've missed any, feel free to comment on it, though I doubt that I missed such a large amount.)

EDIT: I don't feel like a lot more work, so I'll estimate fifteen or so eroge visual novel adapations for 2006.
_summer (two OVAs), Canvas II, Gift, Fate/Stay Night, Happiness!, Kanon, Otome wa Boku ni Koishiteru, Soul Link, Utawarerumono, Yoake Mae Yori Ruri Iro na.
I'll include Tokimeki Memorial because, though it's not an eroge game nor really a visual novel, it is of the "dating sim genre".
Space for four series that I may have missed.
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Old 2008-03-04, 00:54   Link #48
Westlo
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^ Kekkaishi has outrated every Sunrise show this in the last 5 years..... maybe Inuyasha was the last Sunrise show to have higher ratings... of course those two were in the same time slot before Conan.
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Old 2008-03-04, 00:57   Link #49
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Originally Posted by royalcrown View Post
So then I look to Evangelion. It's obviously and infamously an anime known for (among other things) the deconstruction of the mecha genre. I love it for all of the non-mecha aspects - character analysis, political overtones and the such (sure, Eva has its flaws, but I'm trying to come up with specific examples).
It's really such a shame that so many shows tried to learn the wrong lessons from Evangelion and decided to obfuscate the audience as a storytelling technique, and doing it poorly. In a way, I feel that Evangelion's success is one of the main reasons for the problems found in many modern mecha shows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama View Post
Tell me something I don't know. Also I thought "Slice of Life" were now those series like Minami-Ke where the focus is on majority female casts engaging in antics. Whatever happened to those character driven dramas I love like Only Yesterday or My Neighbours The Yamada's?
They're still around. There's stuff like the revival of the WMT shows, or Emily of New Moon, or Mokke, and so on.
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Old 2008-03-04, 01:07   Link #50
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Originally Posted by Darklord_bg View Post
Well, Sunrise is a BIG studio. As such, they always work on many projects, so it's natural that some of them turn out bad. This is true for any studio by the way, but is less apparent for smaller studios because...smaller studios create fewer shows and as a result - fewer bad shows. Besides, the Gundam franchise is pretty much legendary - it's like Star Wars and the James Bond movies. I don't see why they should stop it.
I didn't say they should stop. I'm just saying they've dragged it through the dirt recently... a bit like how George Lucas has dragged Star Wars through the dirt. (Although word on the street is that Gundam 00 isn't all too bad all of a sudden... sorry Gundam fanboys, I'm conveniently ignoring it and Turn A for the sake of my argument).

Yes, Sunrise is big. That's not what I said. I said that if you conveniently ignore Gundam, their track record is good. Most studios of that size have a certain ratio of good and crap, but Sunrise has tended to be on the positive side of that ratio in the last few years if you conveniently ignore their cash cows. I agree with those that say a lot of the flack Sunrise has received from certain groups of fanboys is unfair, but when Sunrise is praised, it's seemingly for the wrong reasons. It's a bit disappointing that most of their best titles seem to be the ones that no one bothers to check out. Like Planetes and Zegapain and such. And even Idolm@ster Xenoglossia, which is so underrated it hurts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama View Post
Tell me something I don't know. Also I thought "Slice of Life" were now those series like Minami-Ke where the focus is on majority female casts engaging in antics. Whatever happened to those character driven dramas I love like Only Yesterday or My Neighbours The Yamada's? The other "Slice of Life".
They're around, just as 4Tran says. You just gotta keep your eyes peeled for them. Not that I'd consider Mokke a great example of what the genre has to offer.

...Didn't we have this discussion in the slice-of-life thread?

Edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KholdStare View Post
I'm not sure where this discussion is going, but I'm with other genres making a specific genre less prevalent, which is why there's a mecha anime among my top ten.

Anyhow, I'm glad to not participate in the bulk of this discussion.
You're missing out, this has been a pretty interesting discussion.
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Old 2008-03-04, 01:19   Link #51
DragoonKain3
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2007 mecha list according mainly to anidb
Strike witches
Gundam Seed special edition
Giant Robo
Reideen
Dancougar
Bakuretsu Tenshi: Infinity
Tetsujin 28-gou
Gurren Lagann
Heroic Age
Idolmaster
Jeeg
Gigantic Formula
Bokurano
Aquarion OVA
Sky Girls
Rebuild of Evangelion
Aquarion Movie (wow, must be popular to have an OVA and movie in same year. Personally, I thought aquarion was mediocre)
Gundam 00
Dragonaut (Should I include this? technically doesn't fit the bill)
Appleseed
Macross F
21

Game adaptations (VN, eroge, galge, or whatnot)
Shuffle Memories (eroge)
Touka Gettan (eroge)
Konnyaku (eroge)
Nanatsuiro drops (eroge)
School Days (eroge)
Moetan (Should I even include this at all?)
Saishuu Shiken Kujira (eroge)
Clannad movie
DC2 (eroge)
Myself Yourself
Clannad TV
KimiKiss
EF (eroge)
Prism Ark (eroge)
KGNE: Next Season (eroge)
15

So that's 21 mecha shows to 15 game adaptation that's mostly text based, or 10 eroge adaptations that I know of. I might have missed one or two in 2007, but that's it. I can go into 2006, but I don't think the 2:1 ratio of mecha to eroge adaptation wouldn't change much.
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Old 2008-03-04, 01:19   Link #52
Kaioshin Sama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post

I never said that other genres were not exploited, but I'm saying that the mecha anime category has been the worst one I've seen out there by far.
Well this is what I get for telling people to be honest. I guess I can't blame anyone other than myself. Let me just say though that I think you are making a bit of a scapegoat of it when their are many others that are guilty as charged of having inherent weaknesses to their storytelling and character development. I mean you treat your opinion as if it is common knowledge, which I was hoping was the type of reasoning we could kind of avoid in the topic opener. In that sense I guess I am naive as you suggested, but one could have hoped.

Dragoonkain, you are also missing tons of VN adaptations.

Interestingly you brought up Tetsujin 28 in the mech list, which is a series of short 3-4 episode stories set in an alternate universe Post WWII Japan such as a former spy trying to make a living with his brothers, a scientist trying to achieve penance for scientific experiments he conducted during the war that bordered on war crimes against humanity, a woman who resents Kyoto's intactness during the war while her village burned to the ground and seeks to even the score out of bitterness, a Mafia boss trying to make a cut in a resource starved Japan now that it has opened up to the west, and a zookeeper who is haunted by the ghosts of the animals he was forced to put down during the war to keep them from a worse death by the bombing raides, to name a few. All of these events are tied together by the boy detective Shotaro Kaneda and his remote controlled giant robot Tetsujin 28 (Built as a symbolic representation of Shotaro's unborn twin brother by his father, a WWII weapons research scientist), which was built as a war weapon, but never used (and let me tell you, as stupid as that me seem initially, in our own reality the Nazi's came up with some even more crazy weaponary that came out dead on rollout during the later days of WWII).

The thing is that the majority of the series focuses on Shotaro's insertion into these other peoples short stories and Tetsujin 28 maybe makes an appearance once at the end of each arc to be used in a manner that helps brings the conclusion to a close. Sometimes it's a sad ending, sometimes a happy one, but it never seems to be meaningless. It also bring up questions of Asimov's laws of robotics in a rather complicated way you would have to see for yourself.

Anyway it's that kind of unique dynamic that I find often in mecha series that draws me to them. I couldn't care less that Tetsujin 28 is in it (awesome as it is), but that it's whole structure opens the gateway to such interesting stories about interesting people.

@Sorrow-K: If you are looking for one of those best titles by Sunrise that get's ignored, you mentioned one that you conviently ignored. Turn A Gundam is overwhelming about the setting and the characters. If more series could be set in the pre-civil war era I would be ecstatic as their is just something so overwhelmingly romantic about the period. Perhaps it's the simplicity of the life, with people still living mostly in rural areas even as the industrial age dawns upon the land and everybody seems to know everybody else and treats them with respect and courtesy, creating a sense of community that I feel has been lost since the Industrial Revolution. Maybe I need to watch Gone With The Wind again.

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Old 2008-03-04, 05:26   Link #53
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@Kaioshin_Sama: From what you say, I get the impression that the best moments of mecha series is when there is no mecha around or when they are not focusing on it. If so, then why watch mecha series at all, if you could get it all from a series which didn't have any mecha in the first place?
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Old 2008-03-04, 06:39   Link #54
Sorrow-K
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@Kaioshin_Sama: From what you say, I get the impression that the best moments of mecha series is when there is no mecha around or when they are not focusing on it. If so, then why watch mecha series at all, if you could get it all from a series which didn't have any mecha in the first place?
I think the more relevant question is, why treat mecha anime different from any other action anime?

A good mecha is just like any other good anime... it'll have things which are unique, be it characters, setting, etc, etc.

I think the sky is falling in... I'm siding in with Kaioshin_Sama in an argument about mecha.
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Old 2008-03-04, 08:10   Link #55
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Double checking, I missed an obvious one... To Heart 2 OVA (eroge). But I missed a ton of VN adapted anime? Unless you provide evidence (aka. name the actual VN adaptations that aired in '07), I'm more inclined to believe that I missed very few, if at all. As such, I don't know why people get the impression that VN adapted anime are more in numbers in comparison to the mecha genre. It might just be more pronounced as people tend to talk about such anime more than your average mecha show, but saying otherwise even despite the facts that it's almost 4:3 would be just one having their bias colour their judgement. (or 2:1 when comparing mecha to eroge adaptations)

And the tetsujin-28 I listed is not the series, as that was made in 2004. The one that I was referring to was the 2007 movie, and I listed it as mecha not because I have seen the actual thing, but because animenfo has listed it as mecha. And knowing of the really old tetsujin being mecha (forgot it's English name though), I don't think animenfo is wrong lol.
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Old 2008-03-04, 11:38   Link #56
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Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Double checking, I missed an obvious one... To Heart 2 OVA (eroge). But I missed a ton of VN adapted anime? Unless you provide evidence (aka. name the actual VN adaptations that aired in '07), I'm more inclined to believe that I missed very few, if at all. As such, I don't know why people get the impression that VN adapted anime are more in numbers in comparison to the mecha genre. It might just be more pronounced as people tend to talk about such anime more than your average mecha show, but saying otherwise even despite the facts that it's almost 4:3 would be just one having their bias colour their judgement. (or 2:1 when comparing mecha to eroge adaptations)

And the tetsujin-28 I listed is not the series, as that was made in 2004. The one that I was referring to was the 2007 movie, and I listed it as mecha not because I have seen the actual thing, but because animenfo has listed it as mecha. And knowing of the really old tetsujin being mecha (forgot it's English name though), I don't think animenfo is wrong lol.
I definitely exaggerated when I said there was only 1 mecha series for 6/7 eroge adaptations (I was sleepy, OK), but I still stand by my overall opinion that harem shows are way more overexploited recently than mecha. I guess I just have to paraphrase my opinion to make it more clear:

1) When I said harem/visual novel I meant any harem series even though I know some of them are not based on eroge adaptations. It's just that most of them are, which is why I grouped them together (I apologize )

2) I meant only TV series, not movies/OVA. If you take away the movies/OVA from the mecha list, you'll see the tide turn around.

Taking that into account:

Winter 2008:

Rosario to Vampire (based on a manga but still harem)
H2O ~FOOTPRINTS IN THE SAND~
true tears
Kimi ga Aruji de Shitsuji ga Ore de

4 harem vs. 0 mecha

Fall 2007:

harem/visual novel:
D.C.II ~Da Capo II~
Myself;Yourself
Goshuushou-sama Ninomiya-kun
CLANNAD
ef - a tale of memories
Kimikiss pure rouge
Rental Magica (yeah, it's a harem show)
Prism Ark

mecha shows:
Dragonaut -The Resonance- (not really mecha, but I'll include it)
Gundam 00

8 harem vs. 2 mecha

Summer 2007:

harem/visual novel:
Nanatsuiro Drops
Kenko Zenrakei Suieibu Umisho
School Days
Zero no Tsukaima ~Futatsuki no Kishi~ (harem based on light novels)

mecha:
Sky Girls

4 harem vs. 1 mecha

Spring 2007

harem/visual novel:
Kono Aozora ni Yakusoku wo
Nagasarete Airantou
sola
Touka Gettan

mecha:
Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann
Heroic Age
Idolmaster XENOGLOSSIA
Kiss Dum -ENGAGE planet-
Kishin Taisen Gigantic Formula
Kotetsushin Jeeg
Bokurano

4 harem vs. 7 mecha

Note: I thought the Spring 2007 season was a great season (not just because of the statistic, put overall it had many more action-oriented and more serious shows).

Winter 2007:

harem/visual novel:
SHUFFLE! MEMORIES

mecha:
GR -GIANT ROBO-
Juusou Kikou Dancouga Nova
Reideen

1 harem vs. 3 mecha

OK, you get the idea. I don't feel like digging up 2006 and before, but you have to admit that at least in 2007 and especially in the last couple of seasons (fall and winter 2007) the odds are astronomical against the mecha series.

21 harem/eroge vs. 13 mecha TV series it's almost 2:1
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Old 2008-03-04, 13:08   Link #57
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Woahwoahwoah! Why are we combining harem AND visual novel adaptations (and even manga adaptations too!) together? That would be me like combining the mecha genre and the shounen fighting action genre. They might be similar, but they're quite distinct to the average anime viewer. Not to mention you have included shows a lot of people can't even consider 'harem' in the slightest definition of the word, as the most they have are love triangles.
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Old 2008-03-04, 13:32   Link #58
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I am little puzzled with what is trying to be proven here by listing all the mecha / "harem" series. (and i could surely nitpick on the list you provided Darklord, as things like Sola are neither harem nor visual novel, but i digress). Genre bias gets us nowhere, and even though the mecha is supposedly less represented, i found the majority of the shows listed subpar at best. That said, i can name quite a few horrible shows from the "other camp" as well. And what would i have proven ? That there are both good and bad shows among both genres ? (In other news, earth is indeed round). There is quite a bit of arguing going around the subject, though i don't see what is there actually to prove, and it seems more like arguing for the sake of argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darklord_bg
Note: I thought the Spring 2007 season was a great season (not just because of the statistic, put overall it had many more action-oriented and more serious shows).
Something being "action oriented" hardly makes it more serious by default. That aside, whether one likes serious or less serious shows (which are not necessarily tied to genre) is a matter of preference. I enjoy both, so i am perfectly happy with being fed from both fields. (Oh yea - you forgot Higurashi among visual novels if we actually care about statistics).


A story is a story and people have their preferences - that is perfectly reasonable and understandable. What i don't understand is the need to try and bring in arguments (that i often find self-serving and just as easily applicable to any genre) why some genre is "better" than another. Their strengths and appeals lie in different areas to begin with, so thats comparing apples to oranges. When we start arguing whose taste in genres is better (which this virtually amounts to), then i can't help but see it as exercise in futility. At times like this i can only be glad i am virtually unbound by genre and can appreciate everything from testosterone load emoing mecha teenagers and shounen shows to calm and peaceful slice of life series and find appeal in both. Just kick back and try to enjoy the story without trying to "group" it with something to determine its "value". Just my two rusty cents.
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Old 2008-03-04, 13:48   Link #59
Kaioshin Sama
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Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Woahwoahwoah! Why are we combining harem AND visual novel adaptations (and even manga adaptations too!) together? That would be me like combining the mecha genre and the shounen fighting action genre. They might be similar, but they're quite distinct to the average anime viewer. Not to mention you have included shows a lot of people can't even consider 'harem' in the slightest definition of the word, as the most they have are love triangles.
Add Otoboku, Shinkyoku Soukai Polyphonica, Clannad (Movie Version) and two adult OVA's from the Boin series to the list as well. I don't think just straight haremish series count. As Sky said though, I really don't want to foster any genre bias anymore than the next person so let's not worry about that anymore.

One of my goals with this thread was to have people get their thoughts on mecha out on the table, bias' included so that we can all better understand them. That way in the future hopefully we can all work to get rid of them step by step. That doesn't mean people being forced to watch, but us all understanding and respecting each others point of view a little better.
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Old 2008-03-04, 14:34   Link #60
Darklord_bg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Woahwoahwoah! Why are we combining harem AND visual novel adaptations (and even manga adaptations too!) together? That would be me like combining the mecha genre and the shounen fighting action genre. They might be similar, but they're quite distinct to the average anime viewer. Not to mention you have included shows a lot of people can't even consider 'harem' in the slightest definition of the word, as the most they have are love triangles.
OK, I'm combining them because most harem shows are based on visual novels where one guy gets to interact with many different girls and has to choose one in the end (basically that's the main idea of such games) and anime adaptations of such games result in the so-called "harem" genre. That doesn't mean that all harem shows are based on visual novels(some are based on manga as I said) and some visual novels are not harem (like Higurashi for instance), which is why I did not include it. It's sometimes hard to pigeonhole a certain show in a certain genre, but in general harem shows and visual novel adaptations have much more in common than the mecha and shounen genre for that matter(you could group all shows that have action together by that logic of yours).

Besides, even shows that have love triangles have a lot of female side characters interested in the main male character even though they do not have a chance of winning his heart in the end. When I say "harem" I don't mean harem in the sense that all female characters have to show serious romantic interest in the guy - I mean shows where a guy is set in an environment where he gets to live and interact with a lot of female characters daily. I think the shows I listed fulfill that condition.

Besides, most of the shows I mentioned are on your list anyway, so I don't see why you are complaining, and the ones I added I am pretty sure fulfill that condition as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
I am little puzzled with what is trying to be proven here by listing all the mecha / "harem" series. (and i could surely nitpick on the list you provided Darklord, as things like Sola are neither harem nor visual novel, but i digress). Genre bias gets us nowhere, and even though the mecha is supposedly less represented, i found the majority of the shows listed subpar at best. That said, i can name quite a few horrible shows from the "other camp" as well. And what would i have proven ? That there are both good and bad shows among both genres ? (In other news, earth is indeed round). There is quite a bit of arguing going around the subject, though i don't see what is there actually to prove, and it seems more like arguing for the sake of argument.
Fine, I will retract Sola, since even I was not entirely sure whether I should put it there or not, but then, since we are going to get nitpicky, I'll retract Dragonaut from the mecha list as well. I'm sure you might find some other examples of shows which might not be exactly "harem", but I doubt that you will find enough to change my overall stance on the issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
Something being "action oriented" hardly makes it more serious by default. That aside, whether one likes serious or less serious shows (which are not necessarily tied to genre) is a matter of preference. I enjoy both, so i am perfectly happy with being fed from both fields. (Oh yea - you forgot Higurashi among visual novels if we actually care about statistics)
I meant more action-oriented and more-serious shows separately, I did not mean to say they always go together . Besides, I guess the word "serious" isn't exactly appropriate either. Let's just say I really enjoyed the Spring 2007 season and leave it at that.

Quote:
A story is a story and people have their preferences - that is perfectly reasonable and understandable. What i don't understand is the need to try and bring in arguments (that i often find self-serving and just as easily applicable to any genre) why some genre is "better" than another. Their strengths and appeals lie in different areas to begin with, so thats comparing apples to oranges. When we start arguing whose taste in genres is better (which this virtually amounts to), then i can't help but see it as exercise in futility. At times like this i can only be glad i am virtually unbound by genre and can appreciate everything from testosterone load emoing mecha teenagers and shounen shows to calm and peaceful slice of life series and find appeal in both. Just kick back and try to enjoy the story without trying to "group" it with something to determine its "value". Just my two rusty cents.
I never said one genre was better than the other. I generally prefer mecha shows to harem shows, even though I really loved Fate/Stay Night and Utawarerumono despite being harem shows, and I have not really seen some of the mecha shows that I listed.

I merely wanted to point out that the argument that the mecha genre is over-exploited sounds ridiculous to me, when there are other genres which are exploited to a much greater extent. I wasn't the one who started with the lists, I just wanted to support my claim with my own list. Generally, I am against such nitpicking and demands like "name 10 shows the fit your criteria" but I was given no choice. I just didn't want to seem like I was talking without thinking.

Trust me, I share your opinion that we should leave the genre bias to rest and enjoy the shows for what they are...
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