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Old 2008-03-04, 21:51   Link #721
AdmiralTigerclaw
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I'm in agreeance with Jimmy here. The full scale Jewel seeds had X amount of power, and were just warming up when Lindy went 'Oh HELL NO!' and put her foot down.

Incidently, what constitutes destruction of the world? Decimation of city areas? Global Cataclysms? (Such as fracturing of tectonic plates and other 'super dissasters' on a global scale... I vote for that one.) Base Delta Zero? Or the Alderaan Effect?
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Old 2008-03-04, 21:58   Link #722
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
I'm in agreeance with Jimmy here. The full scale Jewel seeds had X amount of power, and were just warming up when Lindy went 'Oh HELL NO!' and put her foot down.

Incidently, what constitutes destruction of the world? Decimation of city areas? Global Cataclysms? (Such as fracturing of tectonic plates and other 'super dissasters' on a global scale... I vote for that one.) Base Delta Zero? Or the Alderaan Effect?
I'd say when the planet can no longer support life, whatsoever, such as the moon :3

Anyways, people have probably missed my question, but what's the TSAB's stance on projectile weaponry? More so a device that is designed to carry the Belka cartridge system, but the cartridges themselves work as both a magical booster, and actually discharges an actual projectile. Would that be considered illegal technology in the eyes of the TSAB?
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Old 2008-03-04, 22:01   Link #723
Avatar_notADV
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Good point, that.

Or rather, wait a second. Shouldn't every scientist on Earth be freakin' out a few days after that? Apparently sourceless earthquakes are kind of a big deal, no? (Unless you're going to argue that it was limited to the Uminari area, which would be... weird...)

On the other hand, it's entirely possible that the TSAB's in touch with a few Earth governments for precisely this sort of scenario. "Uh... yeah. There was an event yesterday, don't worry, not your fault and won't affect y'all any further... Just don't panic, 'kay?" Of course, that implies competent_TSAB, which isn't what we have.

Projectiles, huh... I don't think it'd necessarily be "illegal", but most likely "what for?" There's no need for having a physical bullet if you can summon one; there's no need for a barrel if you can accelerate a projectile without one; and a bullet-cartridge (as opposed to a Belka cartridge) can't be used for things that don't involve slinging a slug. It'd be easier to just use the cartridge to summon some bullets and fire them, and also probably more weight-efficient. One also expects bullets to be an inefficient offensive means against mages, whose barrier jackets seem to handle purely physical shock with ease.

If anything, I'd expect that sort of technology to be in the hands of guys in a unit specifically formed to counter anti-magic field conditions - i.e. RF6, right? ;p But the brass is definitely down on the concept, they're down on the idea of anti-AMF development (well, Regius is on the wrong side, duh), and Nanoha's training doesn't go in for that sort of thing either. So there's no real shock that we don't see anyone else using 'em.
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Old 2008-03-04, 22:20   Link #724
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Good point, that.

Or rather, wait a second. Shouldn't every scientist on Earth be freakin' out a few days after that? Apparently sourceless earthquakes are kind of a big deal, no? (Unless you're going to argue that it was limited to the Uminari area, which would be... weird...)

On the other hand, it's entirely possible that the TSAB's in touch with a few Earth governments for precisely this sort of scenario. "Uh... yeah. There was an event yesterday, don't worry, not your fault and won't affect y'all any further... Just don't panic, 'kay?" Of course, that implies competent_TSAB, which isn't what we have.

Projectiles, huh... I don't think it'd necessarily be "illegal", but most likely "what for?" There's no need for having a physical bullet if you can summon one; there's no need for a barrel if you can accelerate a projectile without one; and a bullet-cartridge (as opposed to a Belka cartridge) can't be used for things that don't involve slinging a slug. It'd be easier to just use the cartridge to summon some bullets and fire them, and also probably more weight-efficient. One also expects bullets to be an inefficient offensive means against mages, whose barrier jackets seem to handle purely physical shock with ease.

If anything, I'd expect that sort of technology to be in the hands of guys in a unit specifically formed to counter anti-magic field conditions - i.e. RF6, right? ;p But the brass is definitely down on the concept, they're down on the idea of anti-AMF development (well, Regius is on the wrong side, duh), and Nanoha's training doesn't go in for that sort of thing either. So there's no real shock that we don't see anyone else using 'em.
I'm asking because I'm considering of creating a character who uses a system similar to Tiana's, but in a completely offensive style, using the idea of Gun Kata, as used in the movie Equilibrium. Granted that I'd have to rework it to suit the kind of world it's in, and especially since barreling in like that would be dangerous.

I'm also asking because this character would have any qualms with the aspect of actually killing, over just inflicting magical damage. What better way then to crack the head open, or pierce through it and mess around with that grey matter as the bullet richocets around in the head?

That's why I need to know what's the stance of it in terms of how the TSAB would feel if one of their own was using projectile weaponry, and also how feasible such a setup would be for that.

And mind you I'm thinking solid projectile because of my character's combat preference: Kill first, arrest later.
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Old 2008-03-04, 22:47   Link #725
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Slug Throwers are considered banned weaponry. And also, after much arguing, I have drawn implications that even the fastest magic projectile just doesn't touch the velocity of a conventional weapon. Even our most generous calcs on it, only a page or two back, show the fastest velocity as less than 150 m/s.

The typical M-16 A2 fires rounds at 930 m/s.

If you want slug throwing power with magic, you'll need to:

A: Have a stupid long charge time.
B: Build a hybrid, and have a slightly less stupid long charge time.
C: Just use the freakin' mass weapon and ignore those puny laws.

Now, exactly what would this weapon be like?

Teeana's weapon's a breach loader. What would you do with a live ammo shell? Emergency shotgun pistol?
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Old 2008-03-04, 22:47   Link #726
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
Ark, as Avatar and the others keep trying to tell you, that's because the process was stopped before it really begun! I don't get, they mentioned it several times, had Precia actually completed her task with the Seeds, it would have destroyed the planet. All the damage we did see was merely from the initial stage, the process hadn't really gotten underway before it was stopped. Yet you always ignore that, why? You don't think things couldn't have gotten worse had she not been stopped?
And as I keep trying to tell them, because of this, we are conveniently unable to get an actual measurement of what would have happened.

Yeah, one can agree it'll probably have gotten worse, but how much worse is a huge question mark. As Tigerclaw mentioned, even if we grant the "destroy" part, there is a huge range of what defines destruction, and without the visual we plain don't know what it is.

And remember, the whole thing was ostensibly stopped by Lindy putting her foot down - which means that it was nothing beyond personal resources, and we've seen the limits of mage resources on the physical dimension.

It depends on what you use as your base. It is clear that everyone is working from their words to excuse all contradictory observations, so I'm working from the actual observations of actual activations available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Good point, that.

Or rather, wait a second. Shouldn't every scientist on Earth be freakin' out a few days after that? Apparently sourceless earthquakes are kind of a big deal, no? (Unless you're going to argue that it was limited to the Uminari area, which would be... weird...)

On the other hand, it's entirely possible that the TSAB's in touch with a few Earth governments for precisely this sort of scenario. "Uh... yeah. There was an event yesterday, don't worry, not your fault and won't affect y'all any further... Just don't panic, 'kay?" Of course, that implies competent_TSAB, which isn't what we have.
I seriously doubt the feasibility of that. That'll stop the government investigation but not the private level ones at such interesting phenomena.

Here's my shot - there was no quake at all, as least as perceivable by the inhabitants within our 3D dimension. The dimension itself is being shaken, so if you place a camera with a frame of reference outside the dimension (or is it just the camera that is being shaken?), you'll see some relative movement and that might explain the small amount of vibration you see on screen, while squaring the circle that no one is even taking anti-earthquake countermeasures because there's no movement from their frame of reference inside the dimension.

For them, the most interesting thing is the poles of light, which is a lot more concealable (requires line of sight for easy observation) than a seismic wave that hits seimographs around the world. And , pushing to a fringier extent just for the moment, even that can be rationalized away as a representation of magic for the viewer's benefit, and the characters are just looking up at the stormy sky. This will square the circle as to why no one had to repair the stuff engulfed in those pillars.

By the way, why are you willing to assume they aren't competent, but refuse to entertain the possibility they could be wrong about the JS?
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Old 2008-03-04, 23:07   Link #727
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Slug Throwers are considered banned weaponry. And also, after much arguing, I have drawn implications that even the fastest magic projectile just doesn't touch the velocity of a conventional weapon. Even our most generous calcs on it, only a page or two back, show the fastest velocity as less than 150 m/s.

The typical M-16 A2 fires rounds at 930 m/s.

If you want slug throwing power with magic, you'll need to:

A: Have a stupid long charge time.
B: Build a hybrid, and have a slightly less stupid long charge time.
C: Just use the freakin' mass weapon and ignore those puny laws.

Now, exactly what would this weapon be like?

Teeana's weapon's a breach loader. What would you do with a live ammo shell? Emergency shotgun pistol?
Probably a 12 cartridge 9mm gun. In terms of the shell, the whole thing is still magically charged, but instead of firing a ball of energy that can shatter walls, it's a hunk of ball with enough energy to shatter shields with enough left over power to kill or injure the person.

Plus, this is point-blink style combat. Look up Equilibrium on Youtube to get an idea of Gun Kata :3
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Old 2008-03-04, 23:57   Link #728
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Yeah, one can agree it'll probably have gotten worse, but how much worse is a huge question mark. As Tigerclaw mentioned, even if we grant the "destroy" part, there is a huge range of what defines destruction, and without the visual we plain don't know what it is.
So you're denying the destruction can be that bad? You once said you didn't deny others' speculations simply because there was no evidence to support it. In this case, there is supporting statements from the characters and visuals from the show, yet you refuse to even allow the possibility that can be that bad. Seems to me like you're doing exactly that right now.
How little damage do you think would really have resulted had Precia not been stopped? Merely the destruction of the Garden of Time? If that's the case, was it worth risking all those lives just to stop her?
Dealing with dangerous Lost Logia like these happens to be one of their main duties, give them some credit when they say it'll be really bad.

Quote:
And remember, the whole thing was ostensibly stopped by Lindy putting her foot down - which means that it was nothing beyond personal resources, and we've seen the limits of mage resources on the physical dimension.
It seems to me that you think, if the completed activation was really that bad, stopping it - even in the initial stages - would be the equivalent of stopping a tide with your bare hands. I would say that's the wrong analogy.
Stopping a full blown forest fire once it's underway is hard, sometimes impossible. However, it doesn't take much energy to keep that lit match from landing on the tinder in the first place, does it?

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Here's my shot - there was no quake at all, as least as perceivable by the inhabitants within our 3D dimension.
Oh yes there was. In ep13, as the shaking dies away, Kyoya says, "it seems the earthquake's stopped." Therefore they did feel it as a quake.
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Old 2008-03-05, 00:19   Link #729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghazghkull View Post
Probably a 12 cartridge 9mm gun. In terms of the shell, the whole thing is still magically charged, but instead of firing a ball of energy that can shatter walls, it's a hunk of ball with enough energy to shatter shields with enough left over power to kill or injure the person.

Plus, this is point-blink style combat. Look up Equilibrium on Youtube to get an idea of Gun Kata :3
I'd be... careful with those cartridges if I were you. If three or four of those things give Nanoha the kick to punch through walls, how much punch does just a raw magic dump got in it? I explore the beginings of that in a scene with Crash when he shoots Nanoha's cartridge casing and sets off a 'Crash Dominos' effect.

Gives a sudden funny feeling of using that in a positive manner.

And I've seen Equalibrium. Preson's Gun Kata is useless. If his opponents could actually... well, AIM, he'd have been mowed down. There's no such thing as optimum position in a room. Fortunately for him, his character shields and the instant activation of the Stormtrooper Effect kept that problem at bay.
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Old 2008-03-05, 00:23   Link #730
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Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
So you're denying the destruction can be that bad? You once said you didn't deny others' speculations simply because there was no evidence to support it.
You probably remember better than me (I'm the type who barely remembers what I ate yesterday), however, I'm sure I'll note the lack of evidence. If the evidence is weak or can be interpreted differently, I'll note that also.

Quote:
In this case, there is supporting statements from the characters and visuals from the show, yet you refuse to even allow the possibility that can be that bad. Seems to me like you're doing exactly that right now.
I'll grant the possibility. But a possibility is far from a certainty or even a probable. Anyway my opposition does not even seem to be doing this.

Quote:
How little damage do you think would really have resulted had Precia not been stopped? Merely the destruction of the Garden of Time? If that's the case, was it worth risking all those lives just to stop her?
No one knows. And that's the point. Remember how this really started? Keroko wanted to classify Cradle as a World Destroyer, you say no firm evidence, he tries to relate the Jewel Seeds, and I point out that not only are they not linked, the evidence does not have to be read that way. Then I get murdered.

Quote:
Dealing with dangerous Lost Logia like these happens to be one of their main duties, give them some credit when they say it'll be really bad.
I'm giving them some credit. I'm just not assuming they must be 100% infallible.

Quote:
It seems to me that you think, if the completed activation was really that bad, stopping it - even in the initial stages - would be the equivalent of stopping a tide with your bare hands. I would say that's the wrong analogy.
Stopping a full blown forest fire once it's underway is hard, sometimes impossible. However, it doesn't take much energy to keep that lit match from landing on the tinder in the first place, does it?
But the crystals were already started up and running. Space hasn't broken yet, but they were already shaking it up and Lindy stops the vibration with her will? That means it is clearly a vibration stoppable by human power, which suggests real limits.

Quote:
Oh yes there was. In ep13, as the shaking dies away, Kyoya says, "it seems the earthquake's stopped." Therefore they did feel it as a quake.
OK thanks for reminding me (now I remember something like that happening). Scrap that theory then. Just a thought.

The best way to "square the circle" when it comes to the whole Jewel Seed incident is probably just to view the space-time fabric as being horribly weak to magic, so a low power event (relatively) can cause the tears. Apparently, our spacetime fabric is also under substantial tension, so once there's a break, it can slowly expand by itself until it indeed becomes all encompassing.
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Old 2008-03-05, 01:11   Link #731
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
I'd be... careful with those cartridges if I were you. If three or four of those things give Nanoha the kick to punch through walls, how much punch does just a raw magic dump got in it? I explore the beginings of that in a scene with Crash when he shoots Nanoha's cartridge casing and sets off a 'Crash Dominos' effect.

Gives a sudden funny feeling of using that in a positive manner.

And I've seen Equalibrium. Preson's Gun Kata is useless. If his opponents could actually... well, AIM, he'd have been mowed down. There's no such thing as optimum position in a room. Fortunately for him, his character shields and the instant activation of the Stormtrooper Effect kept that problem at bay.
Hence why I'm planning to make tweaks to it to actually make it realistically usable.

Besides, unlike they who revolve mostly on one spot, my character is always moving, always attacking. If you want, I can possibly write some sort of scene description at a later time if you want, to give you an idea of how he would fight, and if that is actually feasible or not. I'm not crazy enough to have him fight like they do in that movie where they'd give shot down easy. Plus don't forget, his movement is also enhanced by his magic

Basically how the cartridges work is that when they discharge, they work like Tiana's gun, however, the magic stored would be used to shatter say a barrier or shield, and then the bullet itself would carry on to pierce through the person. Basically by the time it hits the target, providing no shield is brought up, the bullet hitting is nothing more than your average 9mm round, which would still hurt like a or kill, depending where it lodges itself in the target's body.

Which therefore would mean that it can backfire, or if the energy isn't separated from the bullet before discharge, could probably take a chunk of the target's body, but it also depends how much power is compressed into the cartridge, so it varies on the user's preference I suppose.

Actually on another note, should I take this to the OC thread?
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Old 2008-03-05, 01:16   Link #732
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Originally Posted by ghazghkull View Post
Hence why I'm planning to make tweaks to it to actually make it realistically usable.

Besides, unlike they who revolve mostly on one spot, my character is always moving, always attacking. If you want, I can possibly write some sort of scene description at a later time if you want, to give you an idea of how he would fight, and if that is actually feasible or not. I'm not crazy enough to have him fight like they do in that movie where they'd give shot down easy. Plus don't forget, his movement is also enhanced by his magic

Basically how the cartridges work is that when they discharge, they work like Tiana's gun, however, the magic stored would be used to shatter say a barrier or shield, and then the bullet itself would carry on to pierce through the person. Basically by the time it hits the target, providing no shield is brought up, the bullet hitting is nothing more than your average 9mm round, which would still hurt like a or kill, depending where it lodges itself in the target's body.

Which therefore would mean that it can backfire, or if the energy isn't separated from the bullet before discharge, could probably take a chunk of the target's body, but it also depends how much power is compressed into the cartridge, so it varies on the user's preference I suppose.

Actually on another note, should I take this to the OC thread?
Is that a solid bullet?
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Old 2008-03-05, 01:19   Link #733
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I'll grant the possibility. But a possibility is far from a certainty or even a probable. Anyway my opposition does not even seem to be doing this.
You know what? I'm going to rewatch the scenes where they talk about how bad the Seeds can get. But later, have to take care of some other things first. In the meantime, can you tell me which scenes do you think the characters are saying inaccurate things, to narrow my search?

Quote:
I'm giving them some credit. I'm just not assuming they must be 100% infallible.
Except in this case, it looks to be me like you think they are 50 to 100% wrong. Pardon me, but it feels like if the characters' statements do not seem to support your case, you're telling me it's alright to assume they're "mostly wrong"? That's what you seem to be doing here.
If the characters say "it could destroy the world" then it's safe to assume that if it doesn't turn the planet into an asteroid belt, it will at least render it uninhabitable. Not that will cause such insignificant damage that you won't see it from orbit. If we can't rely on the characters to present the situation to us properly, what are we watching?

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That means it is clearly a vibration stoppable by human power, which suggests real limits.
That doesn't mean it wouldn't have grown beyond those limits given time. Like a fire, again, in the early stages one person can stop it alone, if she knew what she was doing. If unchecked, it will grow to something no number of people can halt. So, does the fact that a single person can stop a fire from elscalating mean there's no such thing as an unstoppable fire?

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The best way to "square the circle" when it comes to the whole Jewel Seed incident is probably just to view the space-time fabric as being horribly weak to magic, so a low power event (relatively) can cause the tears.
You're grasping at straws here. How "weak" do you want that break point to be? Weaker than the Starlight Breaker? Weaker than Arc-en-ciel? You seem to assert the full activation of the Seeds can't be much stronger than what Lindy stopped. The Arc-en-ciel is certainly a stronger magical blast than that, it didn't tear the spacetime fabric apart.
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Old 2008-03-05, 01:44   Link #734
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Is that a solid bullet?
Yes, a solid 9mm bullet that is encased in a magic bullet.

Basically it works like a full metal jacket in the sense that the magic clears the obstruction from interfering with the bullet's trajectory.

But yes, it's a solid magically charged bullet.
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Old 2008-03-05, 01:56   Link #735
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Originally Posted by ghazghkull View Post
Yes, a solid 9mm bullet that is encased in a magic bullet.

Basically it works like a full metal jacket in the sense that the magic clears the obstruction from interfering with the bullet's trajectory.

But yes, it's a solid magically charged bullet.
I'll label it as a conventional weapon. It maybe a hybrid of sorts but still a conventional weapon... just like ATC's sniper rifle. Although his uses magic to power/create the shot, to me its still conventional weapon but with an exotic power source.
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Old 2008-03-05, 02:12   Link #736
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I'll label it as a conventional weapon. It maybe a hybrid of sorts but still a conventional weapon... just like ATC's sniper rifle. Although his uses magic to power/create the shot, to me its still conventional weapon but with an exotic power source.
You sure it would still be considered conventional? Because my intention of it was to be used to cause real physical harm, or in worse case scenario, kill a target.
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Old 2008-03-05, 02:23   Link #737
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Originally Posted by ghazghkull View Post
You sure it would still be considered conventional? Because my intention of it was to be used to cause real physical harm, or in worse case scenario, kill a target.
To me yes. To the others, likely. To ATC, most likely not
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Old 2008-03-05, 02:25   Link #738
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Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
To me yes. To the others, likely. To ATC, most likely not
ATC?

So in short, it would fall under TSAB list of permitted weapons, just that the preferred means of implementation of the weapon would be frowned upon I guess?
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Old 2008-03-05, 02:31   Link #739
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ATC?

So in short, it would fall under TSAB list of permitted weapons, just that the preferred means of implementation of the weapon would be frowned upon I guess?
ATC = AdmiralTigerclaw, Sword wielding penguin.

It totally depends on how you justify it but I don't think its permitted. Also, its better to think of the TSAB as a police force instead of a military. Btw its better to move this line of conversation to PMs or the OC thread.
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Old 2008-03-05, 02:32   Link #740
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Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
ATC = AdmiralTigerclaw, Sword wielding penguin.

It totally depends on how you justify it but I don't think its permitted. Also, its better to think of the TSAB as a police force instead of a military. Btw its better to move this line of conversation to PMs or the OC thread.
I shall do so :3
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