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Old 2008-03-07, 09:51   Link #801
Wild Goose
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I dunno. If you assume that Nanoha flies at Mach One, then Divine Buster must be faster than that since it overtook her.

Look, you're stressed, I'm stressed, go and sleep and leave this alone for a while.

Furthermore, let me remind you of something. This is not Zeropoint. This is not GURPS. This is most certainly not PSDF or Omoi. This is Nanoverse. Deal with it and suck it up.
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Old 2008-03-07, 13:11   Link #802
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Yeah, at the end of the day, we're still talking about anime here. Same genre where two guys can spend fifteen minutes carving into each other with swords and both walk away afterwards... there's going to be some suspension of disbelief involved for the visual medium, along the order of "why not attack them during the transformation sequence" and all that.

Specifically, in Nanoha, we don't ever see anyone actually outrunning a magical attack; outmaneuvering, sure, and there's plenty of stuff that's incoming on Fate that's not much faster than her (and she's pretty quick). So presumably, people don't outrun magical attacks.

It's useless to break out the protractors and rulers and start measuring the advance of pixels across the screen to try to deduce weapon speeds. That's like doing the same thing for City Hunter and determining that the "crucial bullet" scenes have a bullet moping along instead of speeding to the target. No, it's just that the action's slowed down for dramatic effect, just like in every other show that's existed since the beginning of time! It's just easier to come to that conclusion for City Hunter because we know how fast bullets are supposed to go, and the bullets in City Hunter certainly act like normal bullets. With Nanoha, we don't have the external reference, but that's no reason to assume that you can get away from a Divine Buster by simply outrunning it...
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Old 2008-03-07, 13:20   Link #803
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Come on, Ryo Saeba doing cool stuff like blowing up a tank with a 357 bullet even before gun-fu came to existence is GAR.
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Old 2008-03-07, 13:34   Link #804
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The difference between soaring aspirations and limping reality is a constant (though unintentional) theme in MGLN...


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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Yeah, at the end of the day, we're still talking about anime here. Same genre where two guys can spend fifteen minutes carving into each other with swords and both walk away afterwards... there's going to be some suspension of disbelief involved for the visual medium, along the order of "why not attack them during the transformation sequence" and all that.

Specifically, in Nanoha, we don't ever see anyone actually outrunning a magical attack; outmaneuvering, sure, and there's plenty of stuff that's incoming on Fate that's not much faster than her (and she's pretty quick). So presumably, people don't outrun magical attacks.

It's useless to break out the protractors and rulers and start measuring the advance of pixels across the screen to try to deduce weapon speeds. That's like doing the same thing for City Hunter and determining that the "crucial bullet" scenes have a bullet moping along instead of speeding to the target. No, it's just that the action's slowed down for dramatic effect, just like in every other show that's existed since the beginning of time! It's just easier to come to that conclusion for City Hunter because we know how fast bullets are supposed to go, and the bullets in City Hunter certainly act like normal bullets. With Nanoha, we don't have the external reference, but that's no reason to assume that you can get away from a Divine Buster by simply outrunning it...
I'd say that the liberal use of slow motion for attacks is pretty apparent in Nanoha too, in the melee combat. The clash that Chrono interrupts in the first season and the beginning of the ep 7 Signum/Fate fight were especially obvious as I recall them.

And of course they distort time in other ways too- portray simultaneous events in consecutive shots, or crib from manga and jam one text bubble's worth of speech into one panel's worth of animation regardless of whether saying so much in such a situation makes any sense.
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Old 2008-03-07, 19:11   Link #805
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Yeah, at the end of the day, we're still talking about anime here. Same genre where two guys can spend fifteen minutes carving into each other with swords and both walk away afterwards... there's going to be some suspension of disbelief involved for the visual medium, along the order of "why not attack them during the transformation sequence" and all that.

Specifically, in Nanoha, we don't ever see anyone actually outrunning a magical attack; outmaneuvering, sure, and there's plenty of stuff that's incoming on Fate that's not much faster than her (and she's pretty quick). So presumably, people don't outrun magical attacks.
Unfortunately, they can dodge them. This very fact makes it blatantly clear that the speed ratio is very low. And they keep talking during their fights. Talking is a great scaling tool for time. They might be on 20x time compression otherwise, but while they are talking or grunting, it must be pretty darn close to 1:1.

Quote:
It's useless to break out the protractors and rulers and start measuring the advance of pixels across the screen to try to deduce weapon speeds. That's like doing the same thing for City Hunter and determining that the "crucial bullet" scenes have a bullet moping along instead of speeding to the target. No, it's just that the action's slowed down for dramatic effect, just like in every other show that's existed since the beginning of time! It's just easier to come to that conclusion for City Hunter because we know how fast bullets are supposed to go, and the bullets in City Hunter certainly act like normal bullets. With Nanoha, we don't have the external reference, but that's no reason to assume that you can get away from a Divine Buster by simply outrunning it...
Actually, going ful SoD and breaking out protractors and rulers to determine weapon speeds is the only method which can ever possibly have a result. Each person having his own opinion is fine, but not, for example, in the OC thread where everyone has to more or less work together. So what's the arbitrator.

How can we say, for example, that ATC setting his Lance Rifle's speed at 2000m/s is out of balance, other than by breaking out protractors and rulers (actually it is mostly the pixel counting tool) to say that mage combat simply doesn't move that fast (though it is recently determined that their shaped charge explosions could move that fast...)
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Old 2008-03-07, 19:52   Link #806
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Hey, reality doesn't necessarily mean there's a source for your answer; in a lot of cases, there's just no real answer in canon. Rather than try to make up technical specs, though, isn't it better to measure stuff relatively? It's not beyond belief that someone could come up with a "quick beam" that is harder to dodge than a normal one because it propagates faster, okay, but why do you have to hang a number off it that you figure is no good? ;p

When you're writing fic, using the known characters as a baseline is generally a good idea. If you've got Nanoha and Nanoha's reputed to be really, really good at something, your original character ought to have a really, really good reason to have something that's got better performance than her in pretty much any category. One trick pony, lost logia assist, ate his Wheaties that morning, what have you.

I stay out of the OC thread - the only thing I write for Nanoha is, er, canon. ^^
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Old 2008-03-07, 22:17   Link #807
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Hey, reality doesn't necessarily mean there's a source for your answer; in a lot of cases, there's just no real answer in canon.
If there is an answer in the canon, and you refuse to see it, then you ignore a part of canon.

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Rather than try to make up technical specs, though, isn't it better to measure stuff relatively? It's not beyond belief that someone could come up with a "quick beam" that is harder to dodge than a normal one because it propagates faster, okay, but why do you have to hang a number off it that you figure is no good? ;p
Because it is part of the reality of MGLN. One must open their eyes to unpleasant realities, not shut them.

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When you're writing fic, using the known characters as a baseline is generally a good idea. If you've got Nanoha and Nanoha's reputed to be really, really good at something, your original character ought to have a really, really good reason to have something that's got better performance than her in pretty much any category. One trick pony, lost logia assist, ate his Wheaties that morning, what have you.
Within the TSAB, that's a reasonable generalization. Or even enemies that use the same types of magic.

But what if you have a "crossover" situation. This does not mean necessarily crossover with another anime. It can also mean, for example, your original enemy organization that oh, uses mass weapons. In that case, what is the correct relative merits and demerits? How would you assess them, if not first by taking a good look at the onscreen performance to use as a reference?
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Old 2008-03-08, 10:21   Link #808
Kikaifan
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, going ful SoD and breaking out protractors and rulers to determine weapon speeds is the only method which can ever possibly have a result. Each person having his own opinion is fine, but not, for example, in the OC thread where everyone has to more or less work together. So what's the arbitrator.
I don't see how consenting to accept results produced by a flawed methodology is any better than consenting to some arbitrary middle ground of opinion.
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Old 2008-03-08, 10:35   Link #809
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Because it is part of the reality of MGLN. One must open their eyes to unpleasant realities, not shut them.
You'll have to look on the other side of the fence as well though, since this discussion started as a Nanoha/SEED crossover, you'd be bombing the Gundams as well, as there is no way Gundams can be accurately controlled by the cockpits that we see on the screen. Two handles to cover for arms, hands, legs, head, torso, flight, weapons etc. etc? Do they even use all the other buttons we see?

And yet, everyone accepts that Gundams are that easy to control.
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Old 2008-03-08, 10:56   Link #810
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I don't see how consenting to accept results produced by a flawed methodology is any better than consenting to some arbitrary middle ground of opinion.
The SoD methodology is a parallel to how we will have analyzed all of this had they actually been flying in our skies. People will be calculating angle and range rates to come up with their speeds (they'll sigh with relief) and effective ranges, measuring their blast radiuses to come up with their power. The methodology is scientific, and science has been serving us quite well for several hundred years now.

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You'll have to look on the other side of the fence as well though, since this discussion started as a Nanoha/SEED crossover, you'd be bombing the Gundams as well, as there is no way Gundams can be accurately controlled by the cockpits that we see on the screen. Two handles to cover for arms, hands, legs, head, torso, flight, weapons etc. etc? Do they even use all the other buttons we see?

And yet, everyone accepts that Gundams are that easy to control.
I thought the SEED crossover thing was only for the FanFiction thread, but nevermind. I hate Gundam - basically Gundam shows don't even get a hearing. However, it is obvious in this case that some kind of AI assistance is involved in the control system. That's how they do it in Full Metal Panic (though you have more input there than two joysticks) and Muv-Luv Alternative (the title character even tries to exploit the AI's predictive features).
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Old 2008-03-08, 14:44   Link #811
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Scientific methodology has served us quite well for hundreds of years in which reality was dictated by consistent physical laws instead of the whims of animators. If it's impossible to take an accurate measurement, science can't help you.
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Old 2008-03-08, 14:48   Link #812
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Even a real scientific instrument cannot always take an accurate measurement. That does not stop people from continuing to scientifically determine things.
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Old 2008-03-08, 19:52   Link #813
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There's a level of uncertainty beyond which measurement is no longer useful. Specifically, you cannot get results that are more certain than an uncertain measurement; if your instruments only give you an answer to plus or minus ten percent, you cannot use them to come up with a measurement that only varies plus or minus five percent.

Measuring things like speed or distance from animation is way, way less accurate than plus or minus ten percent. Animators going for a given visual effect may not be consistent with past scenes of the same action - even something as simple as loading a cartridge will take different amounts of time depending on which scene you're talking about. Nor are they worried about keeping it consistent in that fashion - if they can achieve the same effect with fewer frames of animation, or if they have to speed something up a bit to match the piece of music they have, they'll do it, even if it plays hob with the measurements.

You -could- still use statistical analysis to determine a mean value; that way, outliers caused by weird animation frames or what have you will tend to be reduced. You'd also be able to come up with a reasonable analysis of the variance from that mean, which would give you an idea of exactly how much the animators tended to vary that particular what have you. However, that doesn't help you much for Nanoha, mostly because statistical analysis requires a certain amount of "events" with which to process, and very few things in Nanoha happen frequently enough to yield a statistical result closer than "wild-assed guess". Even something that happens 20 or 25 times will still yield quite poor numbers simply because of the nature of statistical analysis, forget the actual variances involved. (And it gets complicated even more if you consider re-used animation, which will tend to reinforce certain numbers without necessarily stating that the values derived from that footage were the "correct" ones...)

One of the important tools of the scientist is a keen appreciation of what his tools are capable of, and what they're not. You can flail around with the latter, but it's not really science anymore...
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Old 2008-03-08, 22:59   Link #814
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However, that doesn't help you much for Nanoha, mostly because statistical analysis requires a certain amount of "events" with which to process, and very few things in Nanoha happen frequently enough to yield a statistical result closer than "wild-assed guess". Even something that happens 20 or 25 times will still yield quite poor numbers simply because of the nature of statistical analysis, forget the actual variances involved. (And it gets complicated even more if you consider re-used animation, which will tend to reinforce certain numbers without necessarily stating that the values derived from that footage were the "correct" ones...)
Let me ask you. If you saw them in real life doing a move again and again with such similarity that it looks like they are reusing animation, how would you conclude things?

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One of the important tools of the scientist is a keen appreciation of what his tools are capable of, and what they're not. You can flail around with the latter, but it's not really science anymore...
Yes, but he doesn't decide to throw in the towel and decide that half-a*sed intuitive guesses are better. Do you think such problems are unique to analyzing MGLN?

Do you think there is no arc of values when discussing, say, Star Wars? In fact, Star Wars values arc over several orders of magnitude. Compared to that, anything MGLN can offer will likely be at least in the same order of magnitude.

Let me ask you. How will you handle it if such things happened in real life. Generally, you will take the most powerful measurement that you believe you have taken reliably. Because no matter how psychologically asinine it seems, it is much easier to rationalize them using lower values than using the lower value as base and rationalizing the high value.

Which is why, by the way, Trekkies and Warsies used to fight each other to the death over the "high-end" incidents. It isn't good enough to just process it out with "averaging". Once even a single high incident is established as reliable, it becomes the base.
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Old 2008-03-09, 00:40   Link #815
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One points out that real life doesn't work like animation. If I see something in real life, I can go measure it -in real life-. I don't have to worry about how many frames the animators decided to animate in that sequence. And I can do it again and again if I need to... ;p

I actually used to discuss Star Trek tech issues, back in the old BBS days. Then I realized that the writers weren't working off a realized model that they were referring back to - the tech did what the plot needed it to do, regardless of whether it was consistent with past shows or not, regardless of whether it would be inconvenient for future shows or not. And Star Trek actually had people trying to hold together consistency on that kind of issue, which is generally not the case with anime.

Then I aged fifteen years and rewrote most of Eva. You can understand why I'm a bit jaded... ;p So no, of course they're not unique. Precisely because they're not unique, I can safely blow 'em off...

I'm not saying that it's impossible to analyze the show and get some figures; however, I -am- saying that it's impossible to conclude that those figures are representative of anything that the creators had in mind, as opposed to just how it worked out when they drew it. That goes double for a show like Nanoha, which, to put it honestly, played it really fast and loose with animation quality here and there.

Not only is it impossible to conclude that, it's not even plausible to -assume- it... but a lot of that is personal judgment; I do have some rather applicable experience on that topic, but that doesn't mean that reasonable people can't disagree.

Seriously, though, when it comes to writing, aren't the intuitive guesses you mention just as good? You -shouldn't- be pulling numbers out of a hat and then looking them up against known values to see what kind of implications they have. If you're designing a magical shot, you don't just say "oh, it's three million thaums" and then look up on the table and say "uh, my rookie pilot is more powerful than Hayate, lol!" The correct way to do that is to decide the implications you're looking for, then reference the numbers... except by that point you don't even really need them.

Take the season 1 "magical power reading", when they pull out a big number to measure Nanoha and Fate's power. Never happens again, right? Even though there's plenty of opportunities to measure whether a particular mage is powerful or not, right? That's because, at the end of the day, putting a number on everything just leads to the "THAT'S OVER 9000!" school of thinking, and this ain't Dragon Ball.
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Old 2008-03-09, 01:03   Link #816
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One points out that real life doesn't work like animation. If I see something in real life, I can go measure it -in real life-. I don't have to worry about how many frames the animators decided to animate in that sequence. And I can do it again and again if I need to... ;p
Actually, in real life you may only have one real observation. In animation or film, you can replay over and over again to fix the observation more precisely. So it isn't ALL a one way street.

Quote:
I actually used to discuss Star Trek tech issues, back in the old BBS days. Then I realized that the writers weren't working off a realized model that they were referring back to - the tech did what the plot needed it to do, regardless of whether it was consistent with past shows or not, regardless of whether it would be inconvenient for future shows or not. And Star Trek actually had people trying to hold together consistency on that kind of issue, which is generally not the case with anime.
Actually, it doesn't matter whether they are or not. We look at the end product. These days, the Trek transporter is a very shafted machine. Episode after episode of them not working pile up until The current estimate actually proposes that you can protect yourself from a Trek transporter by hiding inside a Faraday cage or by standing next to a transformer

That's of course NOT what the authors intended - they really intended them to be exceptions, but that's the law of unintended consequences. 400 exceptions means it is a rule.

Quote:
I'm not saying that it's impossible to analyze the show and get some figures; however, I -am- saying that it's impossible to conclude that those figures are representative of anything that the creators had in mind, as opposed to just how it worked out when they drew it. That goes double for a show like Nanoha, which, to put it honestly, played it really fast and loose with animation quality here and there.
That's one of the beauties of the SoD system. You stop caring about what you thought the creators had in mind. If the creators thought they were making a competent force but weren't, you just take what you see. If their idea of a kilometer draws out to be 100m (people have a tendency to overestimate distance), then the shot was 100m. If they draw it alternately to 100 and 200m, then sometimes they can shoot to 200m. Interesting, you seem able to take the first idea but not the others.

Quote:
Seriously, though, when it comes to writing, aren't the intuitive guesses you mention just as good? You -shouldn't- be pulling numbers out of a hat and then looking them up against known values to see what kind of implications they have. If you're designing a magical shot, you don't just say "oh, it's three million thaums" and then look up on the table and say "uh, my rookie pilot is more powerful than Hayate, lol!" The correct way to do that is to decide the implications you're looking for, then reference the numbers... except by that point you don't even really need them.
If that's the consequence you got out of scientific analysis, maybe the real question is whether you are writing the right story.

Quote:
Take the season 1 "magical power reading", when they pull out a big number to measure Nanoha and Fate's power. Never happens again, right? Even though there's plenty of opportunities to measure whether a particular mage is powerful or not, right? That's because, at the end of the day, putting a number on everything just leads to the "THAT'S OVER 9000!" school of thinking, and this ain't Dragon Ball.
Fortunately, the magical power reading doesn't have a unit attached. The rank system just substituted for it in looser terms.
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Old 2008-03-09, 01:59   Link #817
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, in real life you may only have one real observation. In animation or film, you can replay over and over again to fix the observation more precisely. So it isn't ALL a one way street.
Reviewing a recording to refine your measurement doesn't change that the recording represents only one observation of one event. Ask Fleischmann and Pons what one observation is worth.

Quote:
That's one of the beauties of the SoD system. You stop caring about what you thought the creators had in mind. If the creators thought they were making a competent force but weren't, you just take what you see. If their idea of a kilometer draws out to be 100m (people have a tendency to overestimate distance), then the shot was 100m. If they draw it alternately to 100 and 200m, then sometimes they can shoot to 200m. Interesting, you seem able to take the first idea but not the others.
The creators had a world made of physical matter in mind but the entire thing is clearly just a series of drawings. The creators had human characters in mind but clearly their anatomy is anything but human. The creators had Earth in mind as the setting but there's no evidence that anything other than 'Uminari City' and 'some ocean' exist.

At some level you're accepting the creators' intent, or your entire system would self-negate when it reached the conclusion that the setting it is being applied to isn't real.
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Old 2008-03-09, 02:25   Link #818
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Hi guys sorry to interrupt, but a group of us (me, Lowegear, AdmiralTigerclaw, WildGoose, Jimmy_C, LimitedEternal, ghazghkull) were discussing about barrier jackets. We came up with something like this and would like for you guys you see if what we think can be correct.

Barrier Jackets - A theory
  1. BJ defends from kinetic impact
  2. BJ does so via bleeding the energy into the atmosphere, dispersing the energy (incidentally producing those cool clothing flapping scenes when mages block shots)
  3. BJ primary defense against Kinetic Impacts is the default Field which is set to anti-kinetic
  4. Thus, as BJ is set to protect against hi-energy kinetic impacts, beams travel slower so as to not have to deal with the kinetic protection
  5. Kinetic protection is kept on the BJs due to risk of falling/being thrown really freakin' fast
  6. Similarly, BJs protect against bullet penetration by bleeding all that kinetic energy into the atmosphere, thus leaving no penetration (The impact will still be painful though)
  7. This explains also why melee works against mages. And it may be the reason why the ban on conventional weapons is successful.
In summary, the faster the attack, the more the BJ protects and the slower the attack, the less the BJ protects.

What do you guys think?
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Old 2008-03-09, 05:53   Link #819
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
Reviewing a recording to refine your measurement doesn't change that the recording represents only one observation of one event. Ask Fleischmann and Pons what one observation is worth.
Actually, one observation about one event is often a practical limit. You can only have so many cameras anyway.

You seem to be of the type that insists that if the Observation is imperfect, you think that wild-a*sed guesses are equal.

Quote:
The creators had a world made of physical matter in mind but the entire thing is clearly just a series of drawings. The creators had human characters in mind but clearly their anatomy is anything but human. The creators had Earth in mind as the setting but there's no evidence that anything other than 'Uminari City' and 'some ocean' exist.

At some level you're accepting the creators' intent, or your entire system would self-negate when it reached the conclusion that the setting it is being applied to isn't real.
For the second question, they do, however, state that it is Earth, though. They don't just imply it is, the 97th World is clearly Earth.

The first and third question are a little harder, because it is anime. But ultimately the base question is the same. What will we do if this were all real, that this represents a real situation. The anime, thus, becomes the recreation of that situation, and one of the few sources we have (we have the manga and the one novel too). Are you going to throw up your hands or are you going to buckle down and analyze?

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-03-09 at 06:06.
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Old 2008-03-09, 06:37   Link #820
Sheba
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In summary, the faster the attack, the more the BJ protects and the slower the attack, the less the BJ protects.
It's kinda how fighters in Dune Universe dealt with personal shields.
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