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Old 2008-03-10, 04:14   Link #861
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Trigger? FTW you smokkin'?

Trigger's a weak term I admit. But I was thinking more of an inherent propperty. Like the crystal lattice gel, significant force impact makes it 'solidify' and become rigid. I'm not saying BJs can't be defeated, I'm just trying to help find a function principle how say You can knock a person stupid with your bare hands one moment and cut the fabric on their jacket, and the next moment someone gets smashed from zero, up to several hundred MPH, in under less than half a second, hurtling through the roof of an office building through five floors to come to a stop almost as fast, with the same destructive force as a bunker buster bomb's penetration. Normal humans, even reinforced, being mostly water, would become a bloody smear on the roof concrete... or at least have their internal organs adequetly pulped from the accellerations, or be smeared all over the inside of their barrier.

First Law of Thermodynamics, which magic has not violated, and that energy has to go SOMEWHERE. Where the FORK is it going?
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Old 2008-03-10, 04:23   Link #862
arkhangelsk
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Frankly, given that we saw little of what happened there, and your concession of the normal limitations of that BJ, wouldn't a simpler, more consistent explanation be active defense on Bardiche's part? After all, he had already fired off Defenser to ward off Signum's blow - is it too much to think he can aim that at the ground to protect Fate?
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Old 2008-03-10, 04:26   Link #863
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Not good enough, and I actually fired that one and it got shot down. Defensor is directional, and that doesn't remove the effects of going from 0 to 200+ in under a second and back down to 0 just as fast.

EDIT: See, the problem with a barrier is that it is expressly stated to be a 'shell' of sorts.

The trouble with insane uncontrolled accellerations is that having something that's two feet in front of you won't really help it protect you from the other adverse effects of accelleration. Such as the desire for your body to go off in that direction while your internal organs desire to stay put. Newton calls that the second law of motion, I call it Sudden Prompt Local Accelleration Threshhold Syndrom. Or SPLAT!

That is STILL a massive concern with uncontroleld events.
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Old 2008-03-10, 04:46   Link #864
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Generally, if you can defend and maneuver, that's what you'll do.
Psycological impact. Signum tells Levantine to 'bestow her armor' armor is made to move in. That aside, we know it is possible to move around with Fields, as everyone does it all the time. Increasing the density of the Field does not make in unable for someone to move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
How does being a computer grant it instant calculating speed?
Not instant perhaps, but very fast calculating speed. They have the technollogy to create sentient AI, they're leagues beyond the type of computers we have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Despite being a combat veteran, she has never seen a 100m shot. It is obvious she's shocked all the way through.
For such a long time?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, barrel alignment is still more ergonomically intuitive then off axis.
Uhm... I may be misunderstanding a few words here, but what does this have to do with the physical presence of a scope?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The point is that you must have a time reference before you can claim time compression.

Technically, when you claim a compression, you are actually throwing a small piece of evidence away. Thus, your theory will automatically be inferior to any theory that keeps it. Be extra careful when the conclusion gained by including time compression just happens to be what you wish.
*sigh* okay, another example, A's 5, around the 10:32 mark, Signum and Fate fight while viewed from a distance, they move fast, hitting eachother, rebound, and return multiple times within 1 second for several seconds in a row. When we move in for a close view, it suddenly takes them several seconds for those blows to hit. This is a clear and blatant sign that action is slown for dramatic effect.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Anime standards bullet speed = Not.
Okay, so I'll rephrase it: Chrono's Execution Shift moves as fast as bullets.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
A mage also has far more mass, which allows the penetration to occur at a lower velocity.
But five layers of reinforced concrete? Seriously, if a barrier jacket can stand up to that and let the mage come out only slightly rattled, then they sure as hell can stand up to a bullet.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Add that we can't see exactly what happened, but that Defenser is already up. The possibility of an active defense can't be ignored here...
Defenser is a frontal defense, even if it was active it wouldn't have done Fate any good.
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Old 2008-03-10, 04:47   Link #865
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Not good enough, and I actually fired that one and it got shot down. Defensor is directional,
So aim its directionality at the ground! Have you tried that?

Quote:
and that doesn't remove the effects of going from 0 to 200+ in under a second and back down to 0 just as fast.
The main problem is that the barrier jacket is too thin.

Even if I grant the barrier jacket INFINITE strength, it isn't going to save Fate. The barrier jacket might be invulnerable, but Fate isn't. If that jacket hardens up in the fashion you suggest on impact, Fate's innards will be subject to even greater decelerative forces and become mincemeat even faster.

Her best chance, in fact, is distance. "Give", as they call it. It provides precious extra milliseconds to decelerate, decreasing the deceleration to a more human number. Exactly the kind of thing the relatively far from skin Defensor will give that skintight BJ field / barrier complex won't...
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Old 2008-03-10, 04:56   Link #866
Keroko
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
So aim its directionality at the ground! Have you tried that?
Won't work, there is already a defenser aimed at blocking Signum's strike. Unless you're saying that Bardiche can instantly cast multiple defensers within the timeframe of one second (which I sincerely doupt) there was no way a defenser was active when Fate hit the building.

The Barrier Jacket's field, however, was.
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Old 2008-03-10, 05:04   Link #867
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
So aim its directionality at the ground! Have you tried that?



The main problem is that the barrier jacket is too thin.

Even if I grant the barrier jacket INFINITE strength, it isn't going to save Fate. The barrier jacket might be invulnerable, but Fate isn't. If that jacket hardens up in the fashion you suggest on impact, Fate's innards will be subject to even greater decelerative forces and become mincemeat even faster.

Her best chance, in fact, is distance. "Give", as they call it. It provides precious extra milliseconds to decelerate, decreasing the deceleration to a more human number. Exactly the kind of thing the relatively far from skin Defensor will give that skintight BJ field / barrier complex won't...
I'm not disagreeing with you there, I'm only saying that the blow defense is part of the issue. That's why I've been calling this a CONCERN not once, not twice, but THREE times lately.

Also, the GIVE isn't enough in the sequence. 200 to 0 in under a second will STILL Kill You Dead [/RAID!?]

The jacket has to:

1 - Defend from physical/magical impact.
(Field and Barrier)

2 - Defend from outragous accellerations. Especially concerning the external body components having accellerations != to internal organs.
(???)

3 - Provide atmospheric filtering conditions.
(Field)

4 - Provide basic comfort.
(Fabric and Field)
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Old 2008-03-10, 05:38   Link #868
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Psycological impact. Signum tells Levantine to 'bestow her armor' armor is made to move in.
Not all armor is made to do that, and not all armor is made for you to move with any ease.

Quote:
That aside, we know it is possible to move around with Fields, as everyone does it all the time. Increasing the density of the Field does not make in unable for someone to move.
Does Panzergeist look like the standard strength standby field?

Quote:
Not instant perhaps, but very fast calculating speed. They have the technollogy to create sentient AI, they're leagues beyond the type of computers we have.
I keep telling you, you are a sentient Natural Intelligence that is leagues beyond the computers we have. Now, how good are you with ballistic equations? Spotting bullets? Calculating their appropriate mechanical characteristics and the best theoretical defense according to mechanical engineering? Putting that theory into practice?

Quote:
For such a long time?
Why not?

Quote:
Uhm... I may be misunderstanding a few words here, but what does this have to do with the physical presence of a scope?
It is easier to aim when the barrel is pointing in the same direction. When the barrel is significantly off axis, there's two ways to present the mental scope - a muzzle eye view suddenly replacing your normal vision - rather discomforting, or a reticle that's not centered in your vision. Either will hardly make it easier to aim.

Quote:
*sigh* okay, another example, A's 5, around the 10:32 mark, Signum and Fate fight while viewed from a distance, they move fast, hitting eachother, rebound, and return multiple times within 1 second for several seconds in a row. When we move in for a close view, it suddenly takes them several seconds for those blows to hit. This is a clear and blatant sign that action is slown for dramatic effect.
Better, but:
1) Even if I accept time manipulation, why isn't the far view a candidate for speeding up? This is actually more likely, since the far views at least have little noise, while the close view have them clashing, calling out attack names ... etc. Any time you have sounds (much less voices), there are real crimps as to how much the time can be compressed or dilated before all the sound goes to h*ll.
2) Why can't they just have changed the mode of engagement from fast skirmish to more determined grind.

Quote:
Okay, so I'll rephrase it: Chrono's Execution Shift moves as fast as bullets.
Show me the analysis. Don't give me feelings. Do some work for a change.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Won't work, there is already a defenser aimed at blocking Signum's strike. Unless you're saying that Bardiche can instantly cast multiple defensers within the timeframe of one second (which I sincerely doupt) there was no way a defenser was active when Fate hit the building.

The Barrier Jacket's field, however, was.
Read what I wrote about the field. He'll only have to fire two and do it right. After Signum hits her, she can interrupt Defenser and reactivate it. Or he can just reorient it, whichever produces a better cycle time.

Compared to the problems of the Barrier Jacket field, a little extra ability on Bardiche's part is nothing. Further, maybe they had rotated during the fall and just happened to be in the right position, for all you know - as I said, we saw almost nothing.

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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
I'm not disagreeing with you there, I'm only saying that the blow defense is part of the issue. That's why I've been calling this a CONCERN not once, not twice, but THREE times lately.

Also, the GIVE isn't enough in the sequence. 200 to 0 in under a second will STILL Kill You Dead [/RAID!?]
200km/h or 200MPH? Let's take 200MPH, that's 320km/h, which is just 89m/s. If I get a full second to stop, that's only ~9Gs (a G is about 9.8m/s^2, so round it off to 10m/s^2) - for one second. That's a perfectly survivable figure - plenty of fighter pilots have done it.

Even 200m/s to 0 in a second is just 20Gs. An ejection seat is 20Gs - again, entirely survivable.

If the event is brief enough, even several hundred Gs is survivable. The brain supposedly can take up to 300Gs transient without real damage. There's no need to dream up some Star Wars like inertial compensator.

Actually, it'll be pretty funny if some kind of inertial compensator was around. Those things work fine on a ship. But in this case, here's what would happen:
1) Fate hits rock, suffers deceleration.
2) The deceleration has to be neutralized to save Fate from being turned into mincemeat, so Inertial Compensation fires off to accelerate her, so her net deceleration is reduced to a more tolerable level.
3) Fate literally gets shoved through rock by her BJ's inertial compensator.
4) Hits second layer of rock.
5) Cycle repeats.

OUCH!
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Old 2008-03-10, 06:07   Link #869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post

200km/h or 200MPH?
200 MPH +
(Emphasis mine)

She's got to be hitting that building at above Terminal.


Quote:
Let's take 200MPH, that's 320km/h, which is just 89m/s. If I get a full second to stop, that's only ~9Gs (a G is about 9.8m/s^2, so round it off to 10m/s^2) - for one second. That's a perfectly survivable figure - plenty of fighter pilots have done it.
Fighter pilots, sitting upright in a rocket chair designed not to kill them, where the transfer of momentum was verticle along the spine, the least motion to the brain will be in this axis. And even then, Ejecting pilots air trained adults in peak physical condition. Ejection tends to do bad things to the average person.
Fate's tough for her age, but she's still a child.

Quote:
Even 200m/s to 0 in a second is just 20Gs. An ejection seat is 20Gs - again, entirely survivable.
Again, in a sitting position in one direction in which the human body is the strongest. Fate took a blow from slightly above and in front. Ever heard of whiplash? Yes, I'm sure you have. And that's just a neck injury that could result from a few Gs in the wrong direction. Fate accellerates in two directions with phenominal force both times, probably a lot more than an Ejection Seat too... since Ejection seats only have enough kick at 20 Gs to throw someone just clear of the jet. She gets thrown the distance of an office building exceding six stories plus impact with the building itself suggests enough force from her drive through all that reinforced concrete that she would have kept going. 200 mph is my estimated lower end, but I'm thinking perhaps well above 400 mph...

But I think this would be up your alley really. It's A's episode 2. I believe it will be perfect for your measurements so long as we know the average height of a given story on most buildings. (Standard height right?) Since the blow and impact are all in one scene, and verticle, it's a same-plane calc. Just what you need.

Quote:
If the event is brief enough, even several hundred Gs is survivable. The brain supposedly can take up to 300Gs transient without real damage. There's no need to dream up some Star Wars like inertial compensator.
Again, it depends on direction of accelleration. The brain doesn't take very many Gs when the force is applied in for example an unintended rotation to the side. Knockout blows from pro boxer's punches aren't exactly ejection seats of force, but there's enough Gs in the head-spin to cause minor brain damage. (Because that's what a concussion IS.)

Quote:
Actually, it'll be pretty funny if some kind of inertial compensator was around. Those things work fine on a ship. But in this case, here's what would happen:
1) Fate hits rock, suffers deceleration.
2) The deceleration has to be neutralized to save Fate from being turned into mincemeat, so Inertial Compensation fires off to accelerate her, so her net deceleration is reduced to a more tolerable level.
3) Fate literally gets shoved through rock by her BJ's inertial compensator.
4) Hits second layer of rock.
5) Cycle repeats.
Might explain a thing or two.
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Old 2008-03-10, 06:18   Link #870
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Not all armor is made to do that, and not all armor is made for you to move with any ease.
Armor that renders you immobile? Do show. Signum is a close combat specialist, her having a defence that renders her immobile makes no sense at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Does Panzergeist look like the standard strength standby field?
Standart strength? Yes, for a Field. Standby? No. However that does not automatically mean that the user is rendered immobile. The fact that Vita described it as one of the main defences for a Front Attacker (which need to be in constant motion) tells us otherwise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I keep telling you, you are a sentient Natural Intelligence that is leagues beyond the computers we have. Now, how good are you with ballistic equations? Spotting bullets? Calculating their appropriate mechanical characteristics and the best theoretical defense according to mechanical engineering? Putting that theory into practice?
Allright, I'll give. However, this renders the idea of Bardiche recasting or rotating the Defencer moot as well.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Why not?
Her being a combat veteran for one. I can understand she is shocked, but to the point where she doesn't even bother to dodge the attack? No. The only way that makes sense is if she couldn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It is easier to aim when the barrel is pointing in the same direction. When the barrel is significantly off axis, there's two ways to present the mental scope - a muzzle eye view suddenly replacing your normal vision - rather discomforting, or a reticle that's not centered in your vision. Either will hardly make it easier to aim.
One can learn to aim rather easy when playing computer games, that does not equal knowing how to aim a real rifle. Same basic principle here, if you learn how to aim with a system like Nanoha's, you'll naturally increase in skill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Better, but:
1) Even if I accept time manipulation, why isn't the far view a candidate for speeding up? This is actually more likely, since the far views at least have little noise, while the close view have them clashing, calling out attack names ... etc. Any time you have sounds (much less voices), there are real crimps as to how much the time can be compressed or dilated before all the sound goes to h*ll.
The far view was the candidate for speeding up. Did you miss the line 'viewed from a distance'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
2) Why can't they just have changed the mode of engagement from fast skirmish to more determined grind.
Because that means they would have decelerated to that speed in 0,000000001 second. They went fast, frame change up close, they went slow. There was no delay, no shift to a different fight, it was fast -> slow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Show me the analysis. Don't give me feelings. Do some work for a change.
Well I'm sorry if I don't throw complicated scientific terms into the discussion. Some of us prefer simple terms.

Anyway, Chrono created a large amount of projectiles, which fired at a snail's pace during the 'effect scene' It takes a full 3 seconds for only a handfull of the projectiles to cross a close up view. As soon as Zafira puts up a barrier, we see a hail of those projecties hit the barrier, the entire bombardement of projectiles is over in only two seconds, each individual projectile hit the barrier under even 1 second.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Read what I wrote about the field. He'll only have to fire two and do it right. After Signum hits her, she can interrupt Defenser and reactivate it. Or he can just reorient it, whichever produces a better cycle time.
If she deactivated the defenser as soon as Signum hit her, the blade would have gone through and hit Fate. The only way to survive the blade would be to keep it up untill she is out of the blade's reach (in other words knocked away) during the knocked away and hit the building scene is a timespan of 1 second. 1 second. And that is not even taking into calculation that Levantine has already shown the abillity to simply break through Fate's defences (as the 14:37 mark shows) which would mean that reorienting is simply out of the question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Compared to the problems of the Barrier Jacket field, a little extra ability on Bardiche's part is nothing. Further, maybe they had rotated during the fall and just happened to be in the right position, for all you know - as I said, we saw almost nothing.
Ironic that suddenly Bardiche gets a lot of credit when it is in your favor, since a few quotes ago you were questioning his abillity to calculate such things.
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Old 2008-03-10, 06:29   Link #871
Jimmy C
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
On the flip side, if it increases the effectiveness of his drones, he'll have to build less of those suckers.
If it was only a reduction of, say 20%, I don't think it would impact ammo production significantly. He'd still a factory for the job. Also, it looks like he preferred more drones over better drones, so he could send them to more places to find "interesting stuff" for him. So a cheaper approach was acceptable.
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Old 2008-03-10, 07:20   Link #872
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Just a side note here, did any of the parties who are arguing about the radical deceleration involved in the part where someone is thrown through a wall and stops at the next wall consider that the first wall IS still there, and has to slow the person down quite a bit when they crash through it?
I mean, if the velocity remained the same, wouldn't that person just keep on going through the NEXT wall as well?

So the actual G's involved in the whole stopping process would be radically smaller than what they would be if they went from 200m/s to 0m/s instantaneously...
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Old 2008-03-10, 07:34   Link #873
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Fighter pilots, sitting upright in a rocket chair designed not to kill them, where the transfer of momentum was verticle along the spine, the least motion to the brain will be in this axis. And even then, Ejecting pilots air trained adults in peak physical condition. Ejection tends to do bad things to the average person.
Fate's tough for her age, but she's still a child.
Actually, ironically, it'll seem that a back posture is even more survivable. Maybe she fell on her back, or on her belly (less favorable apparently but still somewhat better than vertical).

Quote:
Again, in a sitting position in one direction in which the human body is the strongest. Fate took a blow from slightly above and in front. Ever heard of whiplash? Yes, I'm sure you have. And that's just a neck injury that could result from a few Gs in the wrong direction.
Obviously, she got lucky.

Quote:
Fate accellerates in two directions with phenominal force both times, probably a lot more than an Ejection Seat too... since Ejection seats only have enough kick at 20 Gs to throw someone just clear of the jet. She gets thrown the distance of an office building exceding six stories plus impact with the building itself suggests enough force from her drive through all that reinforced concrete that she would have kept going. 200 mph is my estimated lower end, but I'm thinking perhaps well above 400 mph...
I've accounted for up to 200m/s, which is over 400mph.

Anyway, why am I required to do all calculations to disprove everyone's dreams?

Quote:
Again, it depends on direction of accelleration. The brain doesn't take very many Gs when the force is applied in for example an unintended rotation to the side. Knockout blows from pro boxer's punches aren't exactly ejection seats of force, but there's enough Gs in the head-spin to cause minor brain damage. (Because that's what a concussion IS.)
Actually, it is said a hard slap produces a transient acceleration of several hundred Gs - transient, but there you go. Most slaps I presume do not knock people out. And how do you know Fate did not suffer from a concussion? As someone else pointed out there was plenty of time for at least a brief blackout before Yunno came in.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Armor that renders you immobile? Do show. Signum is a close combat specialist, her having a defence that renders her immobile makes no sense at all.
But that's what we saw. You really have no evidence other than your own denial that she can move while casting Panzergeist, whether you want to call it a Field, a Barrier, a Shield or whatever.

Quote:
Standart strength? Yes, for a Field.
How would you know that? It is said that Panzergeist is power greedy.

Quote:
Standby? No. However that does not automatically mean that the user is rendered immobile. The fact that Vita described it as one of the main defences for a Front Attacker (which need to be in constant motion) tells us otherwise.
She said that a Field of Some Sort is one of the defences for a Front Attacker. She did not say Panzergeist, much less Panzergeist that can shrug off Photon Lancers like they were ping pong balls. Strictly speaking, she did not even say that you can really move while using a Field, but since it is one of the defensive options, well, you have to use when you have to, right?

Quote:
Her being a combat veteran for one. I can understand she is shocked, but to the point where she doesn't even bother to dodge the attack? No. The only way that makes sense is if she couldn't.
Now you are drifting into iffy psychological zones. Maybe it is the fact she is a veteran - she thought she saw it all. In a few seconds, she has to push aside a preconception formed by several hundred years of combat experience. A newbie might just see it and say "Crap, she's aiming. Better start dodging."

Quote:
One can learn to aim rather easy when playing computer games, that does not equal knowing how to aim a real rifle. Same basic principle here, if you learn how to aim with a system like Nanoha's, you'll naturally increase in skill.
But it will still hardly be as intuitive. By the way, when you use a scope in a computer, it'll also be down your virtual barrel most of the time, since they are emulating real guns.

Quote:
The far view was the candidate for speeding up. Did you miss the line 'viewed from a distance'?
The way I analyze sentences, when you say "This is a clear and blatant sign that action is slown for dramatic effect." I conclude that you are emphasizing the slow down, not the speed-up.

Quote:
Because that means they would have decelerated to that speed in 0,000000001 second. They went fast, frame change up close, they went slow. There was no delay, no shift to a different fight, it was fast -> slow.
Frame change? Frame change means unknown time skip.

Quote:
Anyway, Chrono created a large amount of projectiles, which fired at a snail's pace during the 'effect scene' It takes a full 3 seconds for only a handfull of the projectiles to cross a close up view. As soon as Zafira puts up a barrier, we see a hail of those projecties hit the barrier, the entire bombardement of projectiles is over in only two seconds, each individual projectile hit the barrier under even 1 second.
Maybe they just accelerated?

Quote:
If she deactivated the defenser as soon as Signum hit her, the blade would have gone through and hit Fate. The only way to survive the blade would be to keep it up untill she is out of the blade's reach (in other words knocked away) during the knocked away and hit the building scene is a timespan of 1 second. 1 second. And that is not even taking into calculation that Levantine has already shown the abillity to simply break through Fate's defences (as the 14:37 mark shows) which would mean that reorienting is simply out of the question.
Actually, IIRC, the defenser avoided that fate by allowing the blade to accelerate it.

Quote:
Ironic that suddenly Bardiche gets a lot of credit when it is in your favor, since a few quotes ago you were questioning his abillity to calculate such things.
Not really. Call it a hierarchy of plausibility. I don't like to hand out unproven freebies. However, in comparison to the concept of having that ridiculously thin barrier jacket protect her, then in comparison getting Bardiche to handle it is the slightly more favorable and plausible option. Does that make it clear?

Further, this computation is much simpler. Defensor. Direction: Approximately down. Distance: Maximum extension. Power: Max (of course) Fire.

Further, the same can be said of you. One post ago, you were willing to say Bardiche can calculate trajectories and set up defenses in 1/3rd of a second. Now, he can't even re-activate the Auto-Guard in what according to you is a second?
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Old 2008-03-10, 08:01   Link #874
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
But that's what we saw. You really have no evidence other than your own denial that she can move while casting Panzergeist, whether you want to call it a Field, a Barrier, a Shield or whatever.
We know it is a field, denying this is impossible. Why is it that eveything is better when you analyse it without evidence, but not others? We never saw Vice shoot farther then Nanoha, in fact so far Nanoha clearly outranged Vice, but according to your logic, he uses a rifle, thus he has better range, but when I say it makes perfect sense for Signum to be able to move with Panzergeist it's 'denial?'

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
How would you know that? It is said that Panzergeist is power greedy.
Source?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
She said that a Field of Some Sort is one of the defences for a Front Attacker. She did not say Panzergeist, much less Panzergeist that can shrug off Photon Lancers like they were ping pong balls. Strictly speaking, she did not even say that you can really move while using a Field, but since it is one of the defensive options, well, you have to use when you have to, right?
She said 'Field' and then showed an exact copy of Panzergeist with her own magic collor. That should say enough: Panzergeist is a Field.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Now you are drifting into iffy psychological zones. Maybe it is the fact she is a veteran - she thought she saw it all. In a few seconds, she has to push aside a preconception formed by several hundred years of combat experience. A newbie might just see it and say "Crap, she's aiming. Better start dodging."
Still does not account for that fact that, by your logic, she just stood there even when the beam aproached her at an unacceptably slow pace.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
But it will still hardly be as intuitive. By the way, when you use a scope in a computer, it'll also be down your virtual barrel most of the time, since they are emulating real guns.
Yes, but you're not holding the gun, now are you?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The way I analyze sentences, when you say "This is a clear and blatant sign that action is slown for dramatic effect." I conclude that you are emphasizing the slow down, not the speed-up.
Right, so to make it clear: I meant that they went from fast-paced combat from a distance, to slowed down version combat up close for dramatic effect. The scenes you saw in close-combat were not the actual speed a third party would see when on the scene.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Frame change? Frame change means unknown time skip.
Now you're just in senslesly denying. The scene was 'clash clash from a distance' shift to 'clash up close, slowed down for effect' to say that there is 'an unknown time skip' between those two scenes is pure denial.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Maybe they just accelerated?
Which, even if true, does not change the fact that they hit at the speed of bullets.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, IIRC, the defenser avoided that fate by allowing the blade to accelerate it.
The defenser avoided being shattered by letting the blade accelerate it? Explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Not really. Call it a hierarchy of plausibility. I don't like to hand out unproven freebies. However, in comparison to the concept of having that ridiculously thin barrier jacket protect her, then in comparison getting Bardiche to handle it is the slightly more favorable and plausible option. Does that make it clear?

Further, this computation is much simpler. Defensor. Direction: Approximately down. Distance: Maximum extension. Power: Max (of course) Fire.
I still don't see why a defenser must be in place. The 'ridiculously thin Barrier Jacket' generates a permanent Field, remember?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Further, the same can be said of you. One post ago, you were willing to say Bardiche can calculate trajectories and set up defenses in 1/3rd of a second. Now, he can't even re-activate the Auto-Guard in what according to you is a second?
I yielded that point to you, if you recall. However, you are contradicting yourself at the moment.
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Old 2008-03-10, 08:59   Link #875
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
We know it is a field, denying this is impossible. Why is it that eveything is better when you analyse it without evidence, but not others? We never saw Vice shoot farther then Nanoha, in fact so far Nanoha clearly outranged Vice, but according to your logic, he uses a rifle, thus he has better range, but when I say it makes perfect sense for Signum to be able to move with Panzergeist it's 'denial?'
Considering that the longest documented shot of Nanoha is 100m or thereabouts, and according to WG, Vice managed to shoot over that when he shot at the drones ... that at least is gone, unless you would like to dispute Wild Goose's findings, which will require you to range the shots yourself.

Quote:
Source?
OK, my memory was messed a little here. To be exact, the DVD booklet says "At full power, it can generate a field that can withstand even bombardment magics, but at full power its consumption is extremely high."

But at least it shows, certainly, that not all "fields" are created equal.

Quote:
She said 'Field' and then showed an exact copy of Panzergeist with her own magic collor. That should say enough: Panzergeist is a Field.
Oh, she randomly put out some red flames and you thought it was "an exact copy of Panzergeist", which was more like a purple glow?

Fine. Panzergeist is a field. Now justify your belief that all fields allow mobility.

Quote:
Still does not account for that fact that, by your logic, she just stood there even when the beam aproached her at an unacceptably slow pace.
What part of psychological shock do you not get.

Quote:
Yes, but you're not holding the gun, now are you?
The fact your game character presumably has the gun on HIS shoulder means the game abstracts this part.

Quote:
Right, so to make it clear: I meant that they went from fast-paced combat from a distance, to slowed down version combat up close for dramatic effect. The scenes you saw in close-combat were not the actual speed a third party would see when on the scene.
Oh, so indeed the close scenes were slowed according to you. Just as I thought. And so I ask you again, why is the far scene being accelerated not even a candidate. It contains much less detail. There were no voices and few sounds - sounds play h*ll on any significant time compression / dilation theory - we might have believed that Planet Namek was really going to blow up in 5 minutes and the delay is because we were seeing everything in super fast time if not for the sheer amount of dialogue

Quote:
Now you're just in senslesly denying. The scene was 'clash clash from a distance' shift to 'clash up close, slowed down for effect' to say that there is 'an unknown time skip' between those two scenes is pure denial.
Why? What is a scene transition for except to mark a time shift. 5 minutes could have passed and you won't even know.

Quote:
Which, even if true, does not change the fact that they hit at the speed of bullets.
I've quickly analyzed the scene. It took them 3 frames (28583-28586) to cross about 5 Zafira heights (say 10m). That's 10m every tenth of a second. Or about 100m/s. Your idea of bullet speed must be really slow... and there are plenty of scene cuts and distance to allow an acceleration phase any way you cut it.

Quote:
The defenser avoided being shattered by letting the blade accelerate it? Explain.
It is a variant of sliding with the blow. If Laevantein swipes down, and Bardiche descends with it, then the full force of the blow is dissipated. I thought this principle is common in melee. Certainly, there's no sign the defenser broke.

Quote:
I still don't see why a defenser must be in place. The 'ridiculously thin Barrier Jacket' generates a permanent Field, remember?
The key is in the distance from which they can deploy your defense. The BJ is an extremely short distance from the body. Thus, even if I grant the field infinite strength, it will be forced to stop Fate over an extremely short distance and thus in an extremely short time. This increases the deceleration and severely decreases the chance Fate will get out of it in one piece. A Defenser has more flexibility in deployment, thus allowing more time for the deceleration, which greatly increases the chances she'll get out of it in one piece.

By the way, I've analyzed the sequence. Fate took from Frame 12859 (loss of flash) to Frame 12894 to fall into the building (smoke pillar). That's about 35 frames. The distance ... i frame 12858 (last frame with a light point to allow a distance fix), the distance between building and point is ~291px. A window is about 5px tall. Figuring they are about 2m tall, the scale is 2.5px=m. So 291/2.5=116.4m, and that over 35 frames = 99.77m/s, so the average speed was about 100m/s.

Quote:
I yielded that point to you, if you recall. However, you are contradicting yourself at the moment.
Not really. There is such a thing as hierarchy. For example, I don't believe RH has stabilization, remember? However, if you can show me a shot of her shooting at a clearly impossible range for a human in that posture, then in comparison to the idea that that Nanoha is inhumanly leet in shooting, all of a sudden, suddenly the stabilization theory gains plausibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Might explain a thing or two.
It is only kind of funny there, but had this happened on a solid piece of ground, not an elevated floor, this might have happened:
1) Fate hits ground, decelerates.
2) Compensator fires to accelerate Fate so deceleration won't be fatal.
3) Ground continues to resist, creating greater decelerative force. Compensator accelerates harder.
4) Steps 2 and 3 begin to recycle rapidly (as in microseconds). The forces and pressure surges. Suddenly, the compensator gives out because it overreached its limit and Fate dies from deceleration.

Another possible fate:
1) Fate hits ground, decelerates.
2) Compensator fires to accelerate Fate.
3) Ground yields. Fate is plunged into the Earth by massive accelerative forces from the compensator.
4) Fate is trapped inside Earth, asphyxiates.
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Old 2008-03-10, 12:07   Link #876
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I want to point out something.

Vice shot at a range beyond 100 meters.

Nanoha is said to be able to outrange Vice.

Logically, Nanoha thus can shoot beyond 100 meters.

Also, all these claims of surviving impacts and stuff at 400 MPH... if this is so, why do cars going at 60-80KMH KILL people with the impacts?

*yawns*
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Old 2008-03-10, 12:20   Link #877
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Hah? When was it said that Nanoha can outrange Vice? This little statement must have missed me in flight.

And what does it mean by "outrange"? Does it mean Nanoha's beam can hold itself together for a longer distance? That's very possible because Nanoha is so much higher in power. Or does it mean the ability to get real hits at particular distances? Ergonomics here... even counting that most Blasters are unchoked shotgun blasts.

For your second question, it is partially because impacts involves a lot of vagaries. Which part hit? Where? Which angle? ... etc. There are also many mechanisms of death, such as being crushed by your own car, something a little different. However, given their stated decelerations, it is certainly possible to live through.

For all we know, if Signum blasted Fate down the same way again, she wouldn't be so lucky.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-03-10 at 12:32.
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Old 2008-03-10, 12:35   Link #878
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I think you were the one who said Nanoha outranged Vice. Or something. I'm too tired.

I wanna point out something on stocks: they help the accuraccy but you don't really need them for sniping if you have a good bipod. Carlost Hathcock's 2,200 meter kill was with a scoped M2 machine gun with no stock. SEALs train with the MP5N's stock retracted.
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Old 2008-03-10, 12:37   Link #879
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
I think you were the one who said Nanoha outranged Vice. Or something. I'm too tired.
Even if I was drunk and did utter something like that, look at my statistical average on this subject.

Quote:
I wanna point out something on stocks: they help the accuraccy but you don't really need them for sniping if you have a good bipod. Carlost Hathcock's 2,200 meter kill was with a scoped M2 machine gun with no stock. SEALs train with the MP5N's stock retracted.
True, a bipod is better than a stock and a tripod is even better for stability - but it isn't like RH or the other staffs got that as an option either.
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Old 2008-03-10, 12:42   Link #880
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Well, we've seen that Mid mages have a method of cushioning ground impacts - Yuuno used it to save Nanoha from falling early in S1, and Chrono managed to brake right at ground level in A's after getting walloped by Mask. (But the first was an active-type defense - RH didn't do it on its own - and the second may have just been Chrono's flight spell recovering...)

We know Fate is just plain quick; obviously if she's using Sonic Move, that's a significant amount of acceleration that she's being cushioned against. So it's at least not beyond the ability of a mage to survive that kind of acceleration in other circumstances (and, indeed, she did survive it.)

Actually, here's a good question - how often do we see a character sustain an injury through the barrier jacket? That would give us an idea of what it takes to penetrate the jackets, and the sorts of things it protects poorly against.

Hm... Season 1, we don't see a lot of this. Chrono got a head wound in the Garden somewhere, and Yuuno's taping up Nanoha's ankle, but we don't see either injury happen. (Let's discount the outliers, like Fate grabbing on to an unsealed Jewel Seed, or Fate's mom going through her jacket like hot butter.)

Fate's jacket takes a lot of damage from Nanoha's Divine Buster and then Starlight Breaker, but Fate doesn't actually sustain much in the way of damage (even though she had an uncontrolled fall into water at the end.)

A's, however, is full of this sort of thing...
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