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Old 2008-03-09, 08:43   Link #21
SinsI
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You forgot american comics - only 43% of the graphic novels published are manga, so the whole USA manga market is ~$140 million.
And ~95% of the published manga are not of the erotic variety, so my estimation of the whole eroge market is 1/20*1/4 ~ 1/80 of $140 million, that is $1.5million.
Just enough to license and localize like 10 decent games a year...
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Old 2008-03-09, 11:30   Link #22
cyth
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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
Oh wait, they're not. Stupid troll.
Or maybe they were about to go. This came to me from a Peach Princess employee. PP is only interested in making money, and they do that by licensing titles that are literally thrown into their lap. If his words aren't credible enough for you, I don't know whose are. Time to face the music.

In my honest opinion, I think you can't sell these games here without paying none of the upfront licensing fees and other trivial costs because demand is so small. I was told one of the better titles, Yume Miru Kusuri, which I loved and recollected upon for days, sold less than 1000 English copies. Nobody pays for porn in the West except stupid people and people with a sense of responsibility, especially not for low-budget titles with very little extras. I rather buy the original Japanese games that come with pre-order goodies. I was satisfied with every one of my eroge purchases. English localizations usually have no added value to their product, which is understandable, but it's not my thing. I think Peter Payne knows what he's doing, making a profit off cheap titles, but at the same time he's not bringing anything new in terms of development. Though I'm intrigued by the upcoming English release of Kazoku Keikaku.
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Old 2008-03-10, 08:09   Link #23
Benoit
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Or maybe they were about to go. This came to me from a Peach Princess employee.
As this only applied to a couple titles from other localisation companies (Hirameki, Hobibox Europe), I strongly doubt this. Crowd and Will are big collections of brands. It's why Peach Princess chose to localise their titles; they have a higher chance of staying alive in the market.
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PP is only interested in making money, and they do that by licensing titles that are literally thrown into their lap.
Uh, no, Peach Princess is a labour of love. If they were only interested in making money, they wouldn't exist anymore, as they barely make some.

The only title that was thrown into their lap was Water Closet.
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English localizations usually have no added value to their product, which is understandable, but it's not my thing.
Sure they do. The CGs are uncensored, and we get an English translation. You don't see that in the Japanese eroge.
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I think Peter Payne knows what he's doing, making a profit off cheap titles, but at the same time he's not bringing anything new in terms of development.
Cheap titles? That's the old G-Collections, not Peach Princess. Titles like Little my Maid and Brave Soul are hardly cheap to translate.
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Old 2008-03-10, 08:38   Link #24
cyth
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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
I strongly doubt this.
I have no reason to lie. I know it's a lot to take in, but this is the reality of your beloved companies.

/oshimai
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Old 2008-03-10, 08:41   Link #25
Chewy
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Originally Posted by Toua View Post
especially not for low-budget titles with very little extras. I rather buy the original Japanese games that come with pre-order goodies.
If you compare the prices between an original Japanese release and an English translation, you'll realize you are actually paying quite a lot more for those extras and they're not really "added value".

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Originally Posted by Toua View Post
PP is only interested in making money
Nobody localizes eroge just to make money. It doesn't make sense. There are much easier ways out there ...
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Old 2008-03-10, 09:46   Link #26
cyth
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Originally Posted by Chewy View Post
Nobody localizes eroge just to make money.
You know, the way you say it seems like eroge has that same "otaku" vibe in the west as in Japan, when it's considered as nothing more but a small part of the porn industry here. You can't honestly expect the porn industry to be run with that same spirit the anime fandom is i.e. It just doesn't make any sense, sorry. Maybe things will eventually change, but for the moment it is not so.
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Originally Posted by Chewy View Post
If you compare the prices between an original Japanese release and an English translation, you'll realize you are actually paying quite a lot more for those extras and they're not really "added value".
Extras don't really bring anything to the value pool for those prices, that's true, but thousands of Japanese fans seem to disagree. Perceived added value is something any company needs to work on in this day of rampant piracy, and for many eroge companies that withstood the test of time that strategy seems to be working. Nobody is cranking out cheap games with no extras in Japan, because people simply don't buy that shit. Honest people go to used shops for bare discs, others download.
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Old 2008-03-10, 11:01   Link #27
Hemisphere
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Originally Posted by LiberLibri View Post
Yeah I know it is a very tiny niche, but here how tiny it is is the most significant variable. Less than one hundred / hundreds / thousands / more than that? We cannot save just ten or twenty people, but if they are hundreds, some options would be left. If it is feasible to build a sound commercial relation between the consumers and the creators then it will be the most desirable way. (though it would certainly deprive some amateurs of the pleasure of do-it-yourself).

The size of total Otaku industry in Japan is said to be around 410 billions JPY and 1.7 millions customers (source: 野村総研, data of 2004). These figures include such related areas as train-otakus. More "core" areas can be summarised as followings;

Comic: 83 billions JPY / 350 thousands customers
Anime: 20 billions / 110 thousands
Game : 21 billions / 160 thousands

In short, Comic:Anime:Manga = 4:1:1 in Japan.

I cannot find the figures on the whole Eroge market. There are about 600 items a year. Supposing that these all reach the break-even, and taking it into account that the figure I introduced at #1 is of a relatively large production, I imagine the total eroge sales in Japan is at most 30-40 million US$. Not exceeding 5% of Comic.

According to the statistics of Publishers Weekly, Manga sales in the US was "$170 million–$200 million" in 2006. Applying the ratio above, optimistcally potential eroge market in the US would be 10 million US$.

That seems rather favourable to me... But is it realistic? I cannot believe in confidence.
Shouldn't you be looking at the financial statements, as well as profits and losses of currently existing Western-based localization companies, instead of basing all your data on the figures from the Japanese industry? Doing the latter makes it look like you're simply basing everything on the market conditions on the existing Japanese industry for Eroges, which is not the case once you bring over these titles to the US. It's like you're saying that the US market is exactly the same as the Japanese market, albeit on a smaller scale. Judging your figures from the latter would help you ascertain whether or not your estimates are close to what you think they are, since they're figures directly from companies who are doing localizations first-hand.

Also, if I was an investor, I wouldn't trust ratio assumptions. The eroge and manga industry are rather different, even if you're led to believe that they are simply because of how they function and behave. Both have rather different demographics and market conditions.

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Originally Posted by Chewy View Post
If you compare the prices between an original Japanese release and an English translation, you'll realize you are actually paying quite a lot more for those extras and they're not really "added value".
Added value is added value, whether it be actual or perceived. You want to argue about the semantics of said value, you can duke it over with Rolex against any other watch company.

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Originally Posted by Chewy View Post
Nobody localizes eroge just to make money. It doesn't make sense. There are much easier ways out there ...
It's an industry with little competition, probably low to medium barriers of entry, low rivalry, low bargaining power of consumers...what's not so tempting about it?

Even the topic creator is thinking of making profits from localizing eroges.
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Old 2008-03-10, 13:26   Link #28
LiberLibri
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I am interested in the commercial possibility because I have seen not few people complaining and cursing the reluctance of the eroge makers to open their products to the international market to which the complainers have easy access. Some persons like to invoke the reluctance to support their "self-defensive" activities. If it is possible to build a normal trade relationship, it would certainly improve the satisfaction both of the customers and of creators. This is why. Making profit is essentially important because it motivates the parties the most, but the break-even at least would do to save today's affairs.

I know it is no good idea to apply simply one model to another, especially when it comes to an inter-cultural comparison, but I have little knowledge on the consumption style of each nation except a few areas I have actually lived. If you tell me some, say, on the US style, I will greatly appreciate.
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Old 2008-03-10, 14:40   Link #29
Thany
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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
Sure they do. The CGs are uncensored, and we get an English translation. You don't see that in the Japanese eroge.
You don't always get that, you also may get censorship ala X-Change Alternative. Funnily enough every person who mentioned about the huge censorship they made are banned off the Peach Princess BBS (no I never registered, but just read many times about it).
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Old 2008-03-10, 18:44   Link #30
HashiriyaR32
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Originally Posted by Thany View Post
You don't always get that, you also may get censorship ala X-Change Alternative. Funnily enough every person who mentioned about the huge censorship they made are banned off the Peach Princess BBS (no I never registered, but just read many times about it).
Okay, THAT reminds of why I stopped going onto the Facepunch forums.
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Old 2008-03-10, 19:29   Link #31
Benoit
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I have no reason to lie. I know it's a lot to take in, but this is the reality of your beloved companies.
Don't toy with me. I know very well what I'm talking about, and you are misinformed.
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You know, the way you say it seems like eroge has that same "otaku" vibe in the west as in Japan, when it's considered as nothing more but a small part of the porn industry here.
That's the way Joe Blow thinks about it, yes. But not the fans, or the people running the localisation companies, as those actually know the genre.
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It's an industry with little competition, probably low to medium barriers of entry, low rivalry, low bargaining power of consumers...what's not so tempting about it?
Little competition, yes. Low rivalry, yes. Low to medium barriers of entry? You've got to be kidding me.

Getting an eroge company to license their games to you for localisation is very hard. There's the stigma about foreign people not understanding the games, not buying them. It wouldn't make them much money, they have trouble staying afloat on their own, etc.

Low bargaining power of consumers? Like pirating the hell out of these games isn't some kind of bargaining power. That's what made Virtual Mate pop up with cheaper game prices, and eventually the trend of Peach Princess selling all their games at cheaper prices overall.

And at the end of the day, the localisation companies don't see much of a return for all the effort they have made. These games don't sell a lot, and for less than on the Japanese market. But they still have to go through the trouble of getting a license, getting the scripts from the company, translate the game, put the text back in the game, get the CGs uncensored, beta test the game, print manuals (unless you're G-Collections), and then ship the master copy off to the duplication company.

Of course, you also have the purist eroge fans shouting in the back about how they aren't licensing Kanon, Fate/Stay Night, or whatever other game the purists hold high in regard, instead of what they perceive as Bad Games(TM).
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You don't always get that, you also may get censorship ala X-Change Alternative.
That's X-Change 3, actually. And it's the only game Peach Princess has done censorship on. That doesn't mean I approve, though.
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Funnily enough every person who mentioned about the huge censorship they made are banned off the Peach Princess BBS (no I never registered, but just read many times about it).
Every person who mentioned they were going to pirate the game got banned. Coolgamer came back, though.
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Old 2008-03-10, 20:51   Link #32
cyth
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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
Don't toy with me. I know very well what I'm talking about, and you are misinformed.
I am now one hundred percent certain you wouldn't consider any conversation log proving me right nor Peter Payne himself if he were to come out with his business strategies, so I'm just gonna stop right here. I actually have quite a few replies to your ill-constituted paragraphs, but you know, it's hard finding reason with fanboys who think they know it all because they purchase PP games and lurk on their BBS.

Be proud of your convictions man, that's the way to enlightment.
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Old 2008-03-11, 01:08   Link #33
Thany
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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
That's X-Change 3, actually. And it's the only game Peach Princess has done censorship on. That doesn't mean I approve, though.
You're right, I just checked back on google and it was X-Change 3, my bad
But that's a good reason to not trust companies like these, especially given the fact they're huge hypocrites who randomly censors stuffs for no real reason.
I'd rather buy the original game than seeing stuffs like these happening.
Also, unfortunatly, the original companies don't even have any dignity either, since, afterall, they could probably have whined when they noticed how Peach Princess was butchering their games.
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Old 2008-03-11, 13:35   Link #34
Benoit
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I am now one hundred percent certain you wouldn't consider any conversation log proving me right nor Peter Payne himself if he were to come out with his business strategies, so I'm just gonna stop right here. I actually have quite a few replies to your ill-constituted paragraphs, but you know, it's hard finding reason with fanboys who think they know it all because they purchase PP games and lurk on their BBS.
Of course I would consider those. But I have heard things to the contrary when it comes to Peach Princess, and since you're one of those purist eroge gamers that enjoy bashing Peach Princess, you're not very credible.

And you're wrong about me. I've been in the fandom for years, and was a regular member of the Peach Princess BBS for about the same amount of time, and occasionally visited the IRC channel where an employee and other BBS members chat.
Quote:
I actually have quite a few replies to your ill-constituted paragraphs
zomg you got sekret infromasion! Where are all those people then? Why don't they just post here? Maybe those people don't exist?
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But that's a good reason to not trust companies like these, especially given the fact they're huge hypocrites who randomly censors stuffs for no real reason.
Say what? That's one incident. No other game by Peach Princess has been censored. And they did have a somewhat good reason to censor Lipp. They're a tiny company that doesn't want any media attention and lawsuits because of soccer moms and ignorant attorneys who think such images would be kiddy porn.
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Old 2008-03-11, 13:55   Link #35
Thany
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Originally Posted by Benoit View Post
Say what? That's one incident. No other game by Peach Princess has been censored. And they did have a somewhat good reason to censor Lipp. They're a tiny company that doesn't want any media attention and lawsuits because of soccer moms and ignorant attorneys who think such images would be kiddy porn.
You know Lipp is a character that's supposed to appear in only what? 3-4 CGs at best? And IIRC I checked the CGs and Lipp didn't seem any 'worse' than the blonde loli from Jewel Knight Crusader (who also happen to be raped by the protagonist in her first ero-scene).
I haven't heard of any soccer mom cry about her, so I don't see why it would have been the case for Lipp which is a character that barely appear in the game, they'd have to look at the whole game to even find about her. And given the fact none of those persons made an uproar about Hisui, so I don't really see how Lipp would have caused one.
So yeh to me this does not make any sense though I must say threesome or whatever it was again isn't really something I like, the point that bother me is censoring a character. No, seriously, I don't see any point about this, especially given the Japanese company put this character as well even though there's a real law stating that all characters in erogames should be 18 and over.
To me their reason doesn't make any sense because it's not like Lipp was any more 'offending' than Hisui plus she had at best 2 h-scenes involving her.
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Old 2008-03-11, 17:51   Link #36
Benoit
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And IIRC I checked the CGs and Lipp didn't seem any 'worse' than the blonde loli from Jewel Knight Crusader (who also happen to be raped by the protagonist in her first ero-scene).
That game, however, was localised by G-Collections, and when Peach Princess took over their distribution, they stopped selling the game, and contemplated putting it back on sale with some censoring. However, they ended up putting the game back on sale, unaltered, thankfully.
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You know Lipp is a character that's supposed to appear in only what? 3-4 CGs at best?
(snip)
I haven't heard of any soccer mom cry about her, so I don't see why it would have been the case for Lipp which is a character that barely appear in the game, they'd have to look at the whole game to even find about her. And given the fact none of those persons made an uproar about Hisui, so I don't really see how Lipp would have caused one.
Points taken. I actually agree with you, and made the same last point as you did back then, which is why I said "somewhat good reason". But I was trying to explain Peach Princess' reasoning in that post, which does make some sense.

While it's true that you'd have to look at the whole game to find out about her, that doesn't stop anyone from making an uproar about it. Remember Hot Coffee? You had to hack/use a cheating device to see it and know what to do, but there was still an uproar about it. I know, it's silly, but that's the US.
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Old 2008-03-12, 00:34   Link #37
Thany
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Well the point is there wasn't an uproar on JKC, so I don't see why they would have been for this.
So their logic is quite flawed if you ask me.
Let's just hope they don't continue to censor their incoming games like they did on X-Change 3.
Also for Hot Coffee it's about a normal game so peoples were probably shocked by it (I probably wouldn't have been).
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