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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 22 Rating
Perfect 10 151 62.66%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 52 21.58%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 22 9.13%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 3.73%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 0.83%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.41%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.41%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 1 0.41%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 0.83%
Voters: 241. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-03-13, 19:22   Link #621
tarachi
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I can't speak for anyone else, but my issue is that I want to see heroes win through their cleverness. So far in Gundam 00, all of the cleverness has been on the part of the their enemies, so it's hard to be sold on the show.

I second this, so far it's all about the suit when it comes to Meisters piloting. I wish for Al/Hal switch to come out for the remaining 3 episodes. Imagine if that happened during Trans-Am mode.
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Old 2008-03-13, 19:29   Link #622
Spitfire
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Originally Posted by Obi-Wan View Post
I wasn't even saying it's worse than CE. Seriously, the show comes in doing close to the same thing Kira and Friends did in GSD (and that everyone hated them for, mind you), which is trying to stop war with one ship and a few Gundams. So why does 00 get a free pass? Because it's not Jesus Yamato and Moses Zala that are the ones doing it? Celestial Being shows up and says to the world, if you're going to engage in war, we're going to blow you up. How is that any different from Cagalli showing up in front of Orb before a battle and telling them to go back, and then sending Kira out to shut everyone down? I guess the only real difference is that Celestial Being kills people, and Kira didn't. It's quite close to being the exact same thing that happened in CE, but wingdarkness doesn't hate it because the Godh4x Gundams aren't doing it, so it gets his stamp of approval. Whatever. I didn't understand why Bush was elected a second time either.
Want to know why its more acceptable in 00? Its because people in the series actually question what CB is doing. Even CB's members question what they are doing. People realize its a hypocritical mission they are undertaking. In GSD, no one whatsoever question what Lacus and her cronies were doing. There's also the fact that Lacus is a pop-star. She has no place in a conflict, and no place leading people into said conflict.
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Old 2008-03-13, 19:36   Link #623
Obi-Wan
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Originally Posted by Spitfire View Post
Want to know why its more acceptable in 00? Its because people in the series actually question what CB is doing. Even CB's members question what they are doing. People realize its a hypocritical mission they are undertaking. In GSD, no one whatsoever question what Lacus and her cronies were doing. There's also the fact that Lacus is a pop-star. She has no place in a conflict, and no place leading people into said conflict.
And in GSD, Kira and Murrue both questioned what they were doing before they even launched the Archangel again, deciding the events of the old war would repeat itself if they didn't act. People seem to forget this whilst blinded by the Godh4x of Freedom. They questioned themselves again later, before fighting against Destroy Gundam. I don't see the need for them to continually say, "Is this right?" They know it's right because they decided it was before they launched, and they have experience from the last war. There was even less need to develop a "What are we fighting for?" idea for the old characters because they had their ideals from the last series that still held firm.

So again, Celestial Being and Kira's Gang are doing the same thing but AnimeSuki loves 00 yet hates GSD. I'm gonna have to dig up Sherlock Holmes and revive him with the Dragon Balls to solve this one, my dear Watson.
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Old 2008-03-13, 19:43   Link #624
chitgoks
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if no one bothered trying to assassinate lacus in gsd, kira would never have possibly joined the war. but noooo, they did... so he's in a gundam and they all got pawned in the end
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Old 2008-03-13, 21:17   Link #625
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Originally Posted by tarachi View Post
I wish for Al/Hal switch to come out for the remaining 3 episodes. Imagine if that happened during Trans-Am mode.
Umm... Killing Spree...?
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Old 2008-03-13, 22:38   Link #626
LoweGear
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@Obi-wan:

But it's not the same. Superficially the similarities are there, but the concept of the Clyne Faction aka Three Ship Alliance and Celestial Being is completely different.

Celestial Being is a secret organization CREATED for that purpose that has had 200 years to prepare for it. It has been their mission from the very beginning, the founding doctrine of their group. It uses Gundams designed by the best minds in the world as Superweapons to perform armed intervention in conflicts that would preempt or incite war.

In GS/GSD, the Three Ship Alliance was a "rag-tag" formation of EA, ZAFT and Orb runaways and defectors brought together by fate that banded under Lacus Clyne to prevent the EA and ZAFT from annihiliting each other in an already raging war, using stolen equipment and technologies against their enemies.

Also, there is the presentation of each group. As much as I enjoyed GSD as much as I do 00 now, there is clearly a difference.

The Clyne Faction in GSD is ultimately portrayed as the morally superior choice when going out in interventions against the tyrannical EA and the insidious ZAFT, two powers under which the world would've been a much worse place.

Celestial Being has always been portrayed as a questionable "necessary evil" in a world already striving to recover from several wars, with three major power blocs who have little beef on each other and who are all just working for the good of their respective nations.

It is not my place to judge your tastes or others, but saying that 00 and GSD are similar is inaccurate and unfair to both shows. People like one more than the other exactly because there are major differences between the two once you get past the superficial similarities that you seem to be basing the two on.

Also, if you like GSD yet hate 00, do whatever you want. But publicly denouncing the show like you did is mere trolling and flaming, and adds nothing better to the current discussion.
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Old 2008-03-13, 23:15   Link #627
raginggirlgundamluva
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ummm.....Does anyone know what trans am comes from? just curious...
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Old 2008-03-13, 23:28   Link #628
SoldierOfDarkness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
@Obi-wan:

But it's not the same. Superficially the similarities are there, but the concept of the Clyne Faction aka Three Ship Alliance and Celestial Being is completely different.

Celestial Being is a secret organization CREATED for that purpose that has had 200 years to prepare for it. It has been their mission from the very beginning, the founding doctrine of their group. It uses Gundams designed by the best minds in the world as Superweapons to perform armed intervention in conflicts that would preempt or incite war.

In GS/GSD, the Three Ship Alliance was a "rag-tag" formation of EA, ZAFT and Orb runaways and defectors brought together by fate that banded under Lacus Clyne to prevent the EA and ZAFT from annihiliting each other in an already raging war, using stolen equipment and technologies against their enemies.

Also, there is the presentation of each group. As much as I enjoyed GSD as much as I do 00 now, there is clearly a difference.

The Clyne Faction in GSD is ultimately portrayed as the morally superior choice when going out in interventions against the tyrannical EA and the insidious ZAFT, two powers under which the world would've been a much worse place.

Celestial Being has always been portrayed as a questionable "necessary evil" in a world already striving to recover from several wars, with three major power blocs who have little beef on each other and who are all just working for the good of their respective nations.
Speaking of which someone did an analysis post awhile ago pointing out why Gundam 00 is remaining constant but not the super high ratings GSD/GS got in some (Which in their case was either up or down). The point being was that the Gundam meisters were really really flawed individuals and that their actions were at best, a necessary evil but not ultimately good. The otaku fans generally like black and white, not grey mind you.

Especially given the fact that none of the 3 blocs. who are their main opponents, were ever at war nor are they actually evil bad guys. In fact they seem more like the good guys.

If we were to copy this onto GS then it'd be having the 3 ship alliance bringing the hammer down on both the EAF and ZAFT who while maybe in a cold war and doing skirmishes are not actually in war. That and the 3 ship alliance would end up escalating the conflict.

Besides, CB's objective is to have the 3 blocs unite into one power and whatever else the plan is.
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Old 2008-03-14, 00:03   Link #629
Obi-Wan
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Well, I will respect LoweGear's points on why they are different, but I still contend that the show has not progressed much further. It was The World vs Gundam Meisters for 20 episodes, and now it's more of the same except The World has GN Drives. The plot hasn't advanced hardly at all, and 22 episodes in you'd expect some kind of movement. They've just killed characters that they didn't want to develop, or remove them from the show like they did to Saji's annoying girlfriend. That's just an excuse for writing. Usually named characters get offed for an important reason, or defeated by another named character that is their enemy. In this case you just have Ali going on killing sprees, and it's not particularly intelligent. Just cool if you like death. And that's how we get back to my point that AIDS is cooler than Gundam 00. Well, AIDS doesn't have nice looking animation like 00 does.
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Old 2008-03-14, 00:17   Link #630
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You talk about lack of progress from "World v. CB", but pretty much for the first half of SEED the entire plot never progressed beyond the whole EA v. ZAFT, Natural v. Coordinator crap. Besides, where can they go from "World v. CB" besides say CB spintering and fighting among their dissenting factions? Oh, wait. They did that already.
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Old 2008-03-14, 00:38   Link #631
Obi-Wan
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Originally Posted by Tokkan View Post
You talk about lack of progress from "World v. CB", but pretty much for the first half of SEED the entire plot never progressed beyond the whole EA v. ZAFT, Natural v. Coordinator crap. Besides, where can they go from "World v. CB" besides say CB spintering and fighting among their dissenting factions? Oh, wait. They did that already.
Sure there was some development in SEED before 22 episodes. The whole part about Kira realizing he was the only one on the ship that could use Strike and him feeling like he was forced into something he didn't necessarily want to do. Then when he became attached to Flay, he felt that he had to protect the ship because of her. And of course, his struggle with Waltfeld where he met him in person and was told that in was, the only thing that matters is killing the enemy, and then actually deciding to do that in battle against Waltfeld. And that's just Kira, on Athrun's side you had him struggling with whether he should or shouldn't fight against his friend, which he quickly decides that he should fight Kira. SEED's early character development has lapped 00's...almost twice by now.

In 00, mostly all of the characters are the same as they were when we met them, and have had minimal, if any, development. The last few episodes have been just fight, fight, fight, kill, kill, kill! That's not a good way to tell a story. Like I said before, killing characters is not character development unless something evolves out of their deaths. And of those that have died, there's only one person whose death could spur something on to change in another character and/or the plot in general. I think you guys can figure out who I'm talking about too.
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Old 2008-03-14, 01:01   Link #632
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hmm sorry about this but could you please discuss whatever comparison between seed/seedstiny and 00 somewhere else (you could ask the mod to make that kind of thread)

- I'm really sick and tired to read this kind of comparison in gundam 00 thread -

please no hard feeling okay

Last edited by Ardi220288; 2008-03-14 at 01:20.
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Old 2008-03-14, 02:44   Link #633
StratoSpear
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hmm sorry about this but could you please discuss whatever comparison between seed/seedstiny and 00 somewhere else (you could ask the mod to make that kind of thread)

- I'm really sick and tired to read this kind of comparison in gundam 00 thread -

please no hard feeling okay
I second that!
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Old 2008-03-14, 04:23   Link #634
SuperKnuckles
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I think it was lowbrow to bash upon Seed like that as if it's common knowledge. I'm just tired of the whole "this or this series had no development", etc. Even the horrendous ZZ Gundam had some development. Let it go.
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Old 2008-03-14, 05:39   Link #635
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Originally Posted by SuperKnuckles View Post
I think it was lowbrow to bash upon Seed like that as if it's common knowledge. I'm just tired of the whole "this or this series had no development", etc. Even the horrendous ZZ Gundam had some development. Let it go.
I'm not saying SEED had no development, I actually liked SEED. I've yet to see all of SEED Destiny, though with all the flak it got I don't really want to. It's just when Obi-Wan made this statement...
Quote:
It was The World vs Gundam Meisters for 20 episodes, and now it's more of the same except The World has GN Drives. The plot hasn't advanced hardly at all, and 22 episodes in you'd expect some kind of movement.
... I just felt the need to respond to it. I'm not arguing SEED had no development, I'm saying that he point that's it's still the same combatants (World v. CB) in all the battles in 00 so far doesn't work, because it mostly the same combatants (EA v. ZAFT) in the battles during the same amount of time in SEED.

The point he is trying to show is that there hasn't been much character growth in 00, which I may admit is kind of correct. Ofcourse, he's not only speaking of character growth, but he speaks as if growth is the only form of character development. It's not. You can develop characters by delving into their histories, as it gives a greater explanation for their actions and builds a better foundation for their person (in other words, "develops their character"). And I must admit, we've done that with Setsuna and a little with Allelujah. In terms of actual character change/growth, Saji has gone pretty far. And now we have Tieria, a character who started out in the series with little care for the lives of others now caring for people's well beings and blaming himself for Lockon's eye injury.

I'm done here. If Obi-Wan wants to come back and argue about how wrong I supposedly am, he can go ahead and yell at the brick wall. I'm dropping the subject now.
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Old 2008-03-14, 06:31   Link #636
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Originally Posted by raginggirlgundamluva View Post
ummm.....Does anyone know what trans am comes from? just curious...
I like to think it was named in deference to KITT (but most of you are probably too young to know of it). KITT was a Pontiac Trans Am car of Knight Rider fame. You may know the 'Hoff' (David Hasselhoff) - prior to his Internet notoriousity and Bay Watch - he was famous in the 80's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KITT

It was an AI aware car with loaded extra features. Similarly, Trans Am mode appears to have enhanced AI on the Gundam and releases 'extra features'.
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Old 2008-03-14, 09:18   Link #637
SoldierOfDarkness
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Speaking of development I was under the impression that in an interview awhile ago the show was about the gundams themselves and not the characters. The pilots themselves would, as the series go on, develop more and more which they have been as the gundams were the main focus early in the series.
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Old 2008-03-14, 12:29   Link #638
Dextro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CombiHenge View Post
I like to think it was named in deference to KITT (but most of you are probably too young to know of it). KITT was a Pontiac Trans Am car of Knight Rider fame. You may know the 'Hoff' (David Hasselhoff) - prior to his Internet notoriousity and Bay Watch - he was famous in the 80's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KITT

It was an AI aware car with loaded extra features. Similarly, Trans Am mode appears to have enhanced AI on the Gundam and releases 'extra features'.
Guess I wasn't the only one thinking KITT when they mentioned Trans-Am... And here I was thinking I was getting old/going louco...
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Old 2008-03-14, 13:10   Link #639
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Hm, I'd like to know, what Ali will do with damaged Gundam, that have no buster sword or Fangs... And he must charge it's Tau Gn-drive somewhere....
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Old 2008-03-14, 13:35   Link #640
Matrim
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That's the problem with how many viewers are watching Gundam; their eyes are glued to the scenes for plotholes, and consequently they fail to see the actual themes and symbols, lose their objectivity, and complain about the story and characters when they haven't 'read' either properly.
Ah, the good ol' "You haters, have not understood the show and that's why you bash it" argument? Of course there is the small issue that it is a baseless argument which ignores the fact that the devoted fans of a given series are even more unlikely to be objective towards it than people looking for plotholes and that it's not that difficult to dislike a show and still "get" it. Personally, it's borderline impossible for me to care for any themes and symbols when I find the plot laughable and the work in question is plot driven. Also, these themes don't make any plothole less of a reality, do they?

Quote:
Perhaps what bugs viewers is how the Meisters are relying constantly on superior technology to obtain victory. However, take into account the experience the pilots are gaining while the ace pilots catch up in technology;
Well, maybe the show could have worked better with less incompetent CB pilots and less overpowered CB mechas? Just a thought.

Quote:
I can't speak for anyone else, but my issue is that I want to see heroes win through their cleverness. So far in Gundam 00, all of the cleverness has been on the part of the their enemies, so it's hard to be sold on the show.
Exactly.
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