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View Poll Results: Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 22 Rating
Perfect 10 29 29.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 30 30.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 25 25.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 11 11.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.00%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 2.00%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 2.00%
Voters: 100. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-03-13, 21:10   Link #61
Tokkan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
this latest cut idea from the novels was good enough.

well, in the end this is Yasuko Kobayashi's story, any praise or blame should be placed at his feet, not Takahashi's.
Kobayashi Yasuko is a she. She was also the main writer for the Claymore anime.
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Old 2008-03-13, 21:12   Link #62
Gotank
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Nooooo, don't bring up Rozen Maiden again, I'll go back to my depression again regarding the lack of a third season =((

Anyways, I find it kind of funny that the flames start happening after 2 of the best episodes of the season, when it should have occured while they were still doing harem stuff.
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Old 2008-03-13, 21:13   Link #63
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Everything needs a bit of something called diversity.
Even the plots and scripts derived from the original story.
What's the point of having something that follows the original to the letter?
It obviously in the long run won't show or present anything better.
Don't put the blame on the production team for their antics.
It's all about the finances that leeches on them like bloodthirsty ticks.
If one doesn't like what they see, that person doesn't always speak for everyone.
Either ignore it or write reviews to the producers about errors that weigh more than a ton.
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Old 2008-03-13, 21:15   Link #64
ashlay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokkan View Post
Kobayashi Yasuko is a she. She was also the main writer for the Claymore anime.
yeah I was thinking that. >_> post has been fixed.

kinda weird really, Claymore seemed like a pretty faithful adaptation. (though an anime original ending also took place in that) Well, that's secondary to the point: She wrote the anime's story, like in all series the director no doubt had input.
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Old 2008-03-13, 21:29   Link #65
serenade_beta
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Spoiler for ep22:
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Old 2008-03-13, 21:33   Link #66
ashlay
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Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
Spoiler for ep22:
Option c, gotta be option c. This is Shakugan no Shana! We can't just have Yuji pick one of the girls. (unless he chooses Kazumi...that'd be pretty unexpected. 0_o) This entire story is about Yuji and Shana's relationship having one setback after another. :3
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Old 2008-03-13, 21:33   Link #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek View Post
I'm sorry to say this, but you're being blinded to reason by your fanboyism for this god-awful anime. Don't you think that if people actually had the novels they'd buy them instead? We certainly know about Japan's tendency to cater to ronery otaku since they're the ones who purchase shows like this, but since the Japanese like to complain about fansubbers "stealing their profits" they might as well orient the show to something we'd like as well. Anyone with their head on straight could find a fanservice show; chances are, it'll be the first topic in our Fansubbed Anime subforum. Why should shows with such unique premises like Shana get swamped by fanservice as well?

This is totally not unlike Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball. An insult to anyone with anything above "lowbrow" taste created just so some idiot otaku can have intoxicate themselves with sexual fantasies.

Anime-original is not necessarily a bad thing. In this case, though, it is - the whole Fumina arc was filler, boring generic and disastrous filler that one could easily find in any school life anime. I can see how that could be appealing to people who are new to anime, but for the second season of Shana I think that's pushing things a bit too far.
Wow, you are actually making me think about what you're saying.

Look, I'm not here to recklessly argue. Perhaps maybe I am being blinded by Shana's extreme cuteness that makes me want to cuddle her like a 6-year old. That doesn't mean my arguments are completely rationalized.

I would agree on this: if the novels were available to the non-Japanese public, then yes, due to personal preferences concerning Season II, people will go out to buy the novels. It's a marketing strategy that tends to serve both parties - J.C. Staff gets the viewing ratings, and whoever produces the novels to the general public will also get their sales boosted by those who have a distaste of the anime route that J.C. is taking. Although this hurts J.C. just a tad bit, if the demand for novels increases, then new novels will be produced, and the anime will also benefit.

Ornery, which you misspelled, is stubbornness, and yes, novel readers can be quite stubborn about how a production studio covers an animation adaption. However, that's not to say that anime should follow novel material word for word. Human instincts do get bored of hearing the same story over and over again. Why not make something different.

About your fansubbing comment, Japanese companies do complain about fansubbers. But your comment about the Japanese orienting the show so that those who download fansubbed content could enjoy it as well makes total nonsense. It's like you're saying "The Japanese should just give up and alter the content so that those who download fansubbed content could enjoy it as well." That line in itself spells "net loss". No production company would be stupid enough to try to produce a quality animation that results in a net loss and ultimately a bankruptcy unless they want to go out with a bang. If I know J.C. Staff, they are hanging by a thread trying to survive as a production studio, and they are having money problems. Human greed for revenue is evident everywhere you look, and J.C. Staff is no different.

And the fanservice thing? It all relates to greed in itself. A lot of people do have sexual desires, and I'm certain that the majority of viewers are adolescents who are also undergoing puberty, therefore having some sort of interest in sexuality. Although it does upset me that Shana is that close to taking the Louise route, I understand why they would do it.

In the episode 21 thread, I mentioned something about J.C. Staff rushing Season II because of money. I am reiterating that statement now. J.C. is no Kyoto. They are barely hanging by a thread. They haven't found much revenue success until Shana came along. In fact, as far as I remember, they showed at least one anime every single quarter just so that they can get necessary revenue. It's clear that they've started burning out since then, hence why the Shana movie was created.

Put yourself in a business setting where you are running low on money and the only success you have had is one particular item for market. Obviously you would want to re-build your business around that particular item in order to continuously gain revenue.

Yes, anime-original is not necessarily a bad thing. Although I agree that the Fumina filler was pretty much generic, the point of that was not to please/irk the stubborn viewers who watch this show expecting the storyline to follow novel material; rather, it was to appeal to new viewers who love action but wouldn't mind taking a necessary break from it. It was to increase quantity, not quality. Is it pushing things too far? Depends on your perspective.

To conclude, I've just written a whole critique rebuttal paper on Shana when I'm supposed to be working on a term paper on human naturalism. Is it because I like Shana a bit too much? Maybe. However, my arguments do have a degree of reason within them. The comment you provided also had some reason, but the message you conveyed was too strong. I expected an argument against it, therefore I came prepared for it. If you look at this world in general, there are multiple ways to think, and therefore, different ideas are valued. If there was only one way to think, we wouldn't have had Shana at all. In fact, the world would be like George Orwell's 1984, where citizens are forced to think one way. It is our differences in thinking that make the world a beautiful place to live, despite the huge degree of human corruption. Next time you think of me as just another Shana fanboy, control your emotions and think about what the other side has to say about it calmly and argue your case in a dignified manner.
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Old 2008-03-13, 21:41   Link #68
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This is my prediction.

Spoiler:
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Old 2008-03-13, 21:43   Link #69
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Just think of this as incentive to learn Japanese. As in if you want to know what should of happened get off yer asses and try to read the novels.

As I said before I really don't care about the change made. This being said for the episode itself it was very good and now I'm very interested in how Shana II is going to end unlike before when I knew what was going to happen.

So let us end this ranting about J.C. Staff. It's not like they care about your opinion at all
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Old 2008-03-13, 21:47   Link #70
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So let us end this ranting about J.C. Staff. It's not like they care about your opinion at all
I was trying to achieve this in my second post. Took quite awhile to stop complaining. I will say this again. You guys do NOT know what will happen on the 2 remaining episodes. So watch the 2 remaining episodes and then complain.
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Old 2008-03-13, 22:20   Link #71
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well, i hope they make an OVA like in tsubasa reservoir chronicle
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Old 2008-03-13, 22:33   Link #72
The Real Nemo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek View Post
I'm sorry to say this, but you're being blinded to reason by your fanboyism for this god-awful anime. Don't you think that if people actually had the novels they'd buy them instead? We certainly know about Japan's tendency to cater to ronery otaku since they're the ones who purchase shows like this, but since the Japanese like to complain about fansubbers "stealing their profits" they might as well orient the show to something we'd like as well. Anyone with their head on straight could find a fanservice show; chances are, it'll be the first topic in our Fansubbed Anime subforum. Why should shows with such unique premises like Shana get swamped by fanservice as well?

This is totally not unlike Dead or Alive: Beach Volleyball. An insult to anyone with anything above "lowbrow" taste created just so some idiot otaku can have intoxicate themselves with sexual fantasies.

Anime-original is not necessarily a bad thing. In this case, though, it is - the whole Fumina arc was filler, boring generic and disastrous filler that one could easily find in any school life anime. I can see how that could be appealing to people who are new to anime, but for the second season of Shana I think that's pushing things a bit too far.
I have to say I'm not getting where you're coming from on the fanservice thing. I've never considered Shana to be a particularly fanservice heavy show, and certainly not to the point where it interferes with the storyline. And yeah the Konoe arc was a bit boring, but what does that have to do with this latest ep? The turn it took in the end was pretty interesting, at least for me.
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Old 2008-03-13, 22:43   Link #73
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JC is getting alot of hate because of three reasons first Znt 2 being really bad, then their adapation of Kimikiss which they change alot of things the game which was more of a shonen type of romance while the anime was made into a Josei type of romance anime, causing alot of kimikiss fans (I mean alot since kimikiss game was really popular in japan) to bail out early on the anime pretty much making it a cormecial failure. None of the DVD's have sold well not even making it in the top ten DVD's sales when each volume has been released while other romance series like Sola and ef have and with True Tears being very popular the DVD's are going to sell well for that series as well.

Then there's this series which has been rather iffy this season ranging from good to medicore. I'm hoping they can pull it off with the final episodes to get a good ending but with only two episodes left...
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Old 2008-03-13, 23:13   Link #74
Malintex_Terek
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Originally Posted by Gotank View Post
Anyways, I find it kind of funny that the flames start happening after 2 of the best episodes of the season, when it should have occured while they were still doing harem stuff.
Why is this funny? We're comparing twenty one episode's worth of stuff to five or six - people are complaining about our complaining because the series isn't finished yet! Don't you think it would have been just a tad "pessimistic" to denounce the series back then? We have the benefit of hindsight now.
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Old 2008-03-13, 23:35   Link #75
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actually after rewatching shana ep 22, I just realize that the appearance of hecate seems abrupt and forced, not sure why. I know they try to create surprise, but it is kinda fail, not really expected, but it is like you take a crap but somehow the shit is too hard, it is unexpected but not surprising and feels forced:P haha.

another example is like you order some chinese food, but when you get the food, the food is actually pretty spicy and chilly. unexpected, but not surprising and kinda forced when you know the food that you order is actually braised tofu hot pot with mixed vegetable
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Old 2008-03-13, 23:37   Link #76
The Real Nemo
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Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek View Post
Why is this funny? We're comparing twenty one episode's worth of stuff to five or six - people are complaining about our complaining because the series isn't finished yet! Don't you think it would have been just a tad "pessimistic" to denounce the series back then? We have the benefit of hindsight now.
I can see complaining about the first half, but for the most part the second half of the series has been greatly appreciated. I'd also kind of like to know why you think this latest ep clinches the series as a fanservice one.
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Old 2008-03-13, 23:43   Link #77
ashlay
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metronome View Post
actually after rewatching shana ep 22, I just realize that the appearance of hecate seems abrupt and forced, not sure why. I know they try to create surprise, but it is kinda fail, not really expected, but it is like you take a crap but somehow the shit is too hard, it is unexpected but not surprising and feels forced:P haha.

another example is like you order some chinese food, but when you get the food, the food is actually pretty spicy and chilly. unexpected, but not surprising and kinda forced when you know the food that you order is actually braised tofu hot pot with mixed vegetable
well, pushing all the other stuff aside, lets just wait to see what Hecate's plan is.
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Old 2008-03-14, 00:40   Link #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metronome View Post
actually after rewatching shana ep 22, I just realize that the appearance of hecate seems abrupt and forced, not sure why. I know they try to create surprise, but it is kinda fail, not really expected, but it is like you take a crap but somehow the shit is too hard, it is unexpected but not surprising and feels forced:P haha.
I agree with you there. However, don't you think that if you were a badguy you'd try to be abrupt too? If I were Hecate I'd of materialized infront of Yuuji while he was on the toilet and Shana was at her appartment a long time ago. Much easier that way than when 3 flame haze are flying around him like wasps

Yay for a good antagonist planning for once!
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Old 2008-03-14, 00:56   Link #79
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Originally Posted by The Real Nemo View Post
I can see complaining about the first half, but for the most part the second half of the series has been greatly appreciated. I'd also kind of like to know why you think this latest ep clinches the series as a fanservice one.
Alright.

Let me start off by saying generally I hate fanservice. There are shows that are made for it, and I think it belongs there. Shana is not one of these shows. It is a rather serious story about a boy and a girl, it was never intended (in my eyes) to end up as just another harem drama/comedy, not unlike School Days or Ninomiya-kun (to name a few).

Since Shana involves a high school boy and love, it's natural to assume there would be some dramatic tension, but too much of the show's "uniqueness" is getting wasted by focusing on this harem stuff that's not going anywhere. How's Shana unique? Here's a summary of the premise in a single sentence:

One day, a young student named Sakai Yuuji discovers he is not only dead, but is permanently involved in a timless war between malevolent beings called Tomogara and Flame Haze, humans who have allied with Tomogara to hunt them.

How does this premise - a war of humans versus Tomogara - connect to slice of life highschool melodrama?? It only connects vaguely, through Yuuji and Shana and their dynamic; the whole uniqueness of the Shana series is being wasted by not being focused on.

What I'm saying is, for those harem episodes, if you took those episodes out of context and showed them to someone who had no idea about what the series was about, he/she wouldn't think of it as an action show. That person would think of it as a generic harem show with good art and average animation.

What I'm trying to get at is this huge involving plot is getting wasted on the harem stuff. It's connected to the fanservice in that Hecate, who is a beloved icon in doujin circles for Shana and was one of the most popular characters last season despite her short tenure because she was "moe", is getting screentime.

That's the fanservice - Hecate focus. Fanservice is pandering to people by doing something, either jiggling breasts, cooing or getting naked. It can also mean focus on a particular character (not just an item of said character), and Hecate, who has a rather small role in the novels compared with her anime incarnation. All of this is done at the sacrifice of the overall aesthetic of the story - substituting Sairei no Hebi for Hecate to fanboys will have an incentive to buy the DVDs.

If anyone else with any motive whatsoever had stolen the Reiji Maigo - Sabrac, Margery, Sydonay, Bel Peol, Fecor, ANYONE - I wouldn't complain. But using Hecate, especially considering the harem role she played, just strikes me as blatant pandering, and it was done in the wrong place.

I could easily have imagined the SnH done in the last three episodes. The spread would be like this (WARNING: novel spoilers!)

Spoiler:


Putting it like that, and considering how short volume fourteen is, it was easily possible to merge the stories (no pub intended). I'm no screen writer but something like this should have been obvious. SnH was just cleared for more Hecate moments, which basically screws over our twenty one weeks of waiting.

...

On the second half, meh, I'm ambivalent.

1. Margery's flashback was awesome. Best part of season II easy, only part that felt like season I.
2. Pheles incident was really weird, we were given barely any info on Pheles and the battle was disoriented, poorly explained and really rushed.
3. Sabrac incident started off well, but it still felt rushed and looked funky in twenty one, THOUGH I think JC Staff made up for it by keeping ol Sab alive. That's great, I like him. He shouldn't go down that easily.
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Old 2008-03-14, 01:13   Link #80
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Um, okay... personally, I haven't noticed the fanservice aspect of it, partly because I wasn't actually looking hard for it. Shana isn't like ZnT II where they have a breast joke twice per episode. It doesn't really make you pay attention to all of the fanservice. Okay, there was that Nakamura girl comparing Shana and Kazumi's breast sizes, but that was just a five second moment, like the time Yuji fell out of the closet and saw Shana topless. This anime doesn't really pay attention to that, at least through my observations.
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