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View Poll Results: Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 22 Rating
Perfect 10 29 29.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 30 30.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 25 25.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 11 11.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.00%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 2.00%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 2.00%
Voters: 100. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-03-14, 01:15   Link #81
Tokkan
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Okay... so this is all because of Hecate? And you haven't considered they may have another reason besides fanservice?

Spoiler:
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Old 2008-03-14, 01:32   Link #82
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I just want to reply to Malintex about Ike:
Spoiler for Ike:
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Old 2008-03-14, 01:51   Link #83
The Real Nemo
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Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek View Post
Putting it like that, and considering how short volume fourteen is, it was easily possible to merge the stories (no pub intended). I'm no screen writer but something like this should have been obvious. SnH was just cleared for more Hecate moments, which basically screws over our twenty one weeks of waiting.
So you're saying the only reason the ending was changed was to give Hecate more screentime because she serves as a form of fanservice? Um, I really think you're reading too much into that. While I'm sure it's true that her popularity leads to them wanting to use her more, I don't think there's any reason to assume that they dropped the novel storyline just for the sake of her character.

As for why she was the one to take the Reiji Maigo, well she is the most obvious choice since she was the one who put the seal on it back in ep 15 and has the most prior established connection Yuji. It's true that Hecate has been given a bigger role in the anime than the novels, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. They've given a greater depth to her character than simply being SnH's priestess.
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Old 2008-03-14, 02:26   Link #84
Malintex_Terek
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Originally Posted by minhtam2448 View Post
Um, okay... personally, I haven't noticed the fanservice aspect of it, partly because I wasn't actually looking hard for it. Shana isn't like ZnT II where they have a breast joke twice per episode. It doesn't really make you pay attention to all of the fanservice. Okay, there was that Nakamura girl comparing Shana and Kazumi's breast sizes, but that was just a five second moment, like the time Yuji fell out of the closet and saw Shana topless. This anime doesn't really pay attention to that, at least through my observations.
One of the things I liked about Shana I was the comparatively little fanservice considering what most shounen anime get nowadays. I agree it wasn't as noticeable, at least in season I, but that didn't prevent us from having stuff like that water park episode.

It's considerably worse in Shana II, the complete reverse of the first season. Rather than 8 episodes eight 1 slice-of-life fanservice-y one, we have 6 fanservice episodes and 2 of hard action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokkan View Post
Okay... so this is all because of Hecate? And you haven't considered they may have another reason besides fanservice?
I'm still traumatized by the director of Fate/stay night Yuji Yamaguchi telling 2channel he had a boner for Saber and was going to devote the whole anime toward her. As a result of this, yes, I'm pretty inclined into thinking the director is going to work the plot around a certain character he wants to emphasize (Hecate) irrespective of everything else. Yamaguchi pissed away FSN's potential as an epic anime by only using Fate's route because he wanted Saber, and I feel the Shana director feels the same for Hecate.

Considering how Hecate was worked into the plot for the fanservice angle, I can't think of other reaons. Maybe the director is just arrogant and things his "anime-original" storyline is better than the novels. I strongly disagree, but he's the bloke in charge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokkan View Post
Spoiler:
I've been getting conflicted answers on this, so I have no idea. If I'm wrong sorry about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Nemo View Post
So you're saying the only reason the ending was changed was to give Hecate more screentime because she serves as a form of fanservice? Um, I really think you're reading too much into that. While I'm sure it's true that her popularity leads to them wanting to use her more, I don't think there's any reason to assume that they dropped the novel storyline just for the sake of her character.
I should hire you as a professional summarizer. I (surely) couldn't have said it better myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Nemo View Post
As for why she was the one to take the Reiji Maigo, well she is the most obvious choice since she was the one who put the seal on it back in ep 15 and has the most prior established connection Yuji. It's true that Hecate has been given a bigger role in the anime than the novels, but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. They've given a greater depth to her character than simply being SnH's priestess.
Sabrac put a spell on it as well, he'd be just as suitable if not moreso since it was his role to unleash SnH. That said, and I have yet to watch the episode mind you, Hecate taking the Reiji Maigo is just too unbelievable for me, it smells of contrived pandering.

1. Yuuji can sense the presence of PoE. Sabrac could hide his from Yuuji by spreading it around, but Hecate can't. How could he possibly get caught?
2. How can he possibly be alive? Isn't stealing a Noble Phantasm supposed to destroy a Mystes? How did she get past the Keeper?
3. If SnH was really behind this...why? Hecate's stealing from her own lord, what good would that do him?

It annoys me that SnH might get portrayed as a purely evil villain rather than a good-willed vigilante; if he is set to appear soon, it'll be in a situation where he puts pressure on Yuuji for no apparent reason. The whole reasonable edge to SnH gets squandered.
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Old 2008-03-14, 02:29   Link #85
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Well, I thought it was a nice ep (sorry but I haven't read the novel so can only go by what I see ^^).
Spoiler:
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Old 2008-03-14, 02:42   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek View Post
Sabrac put a spell on it as well, he'd be just as suitable if not moreso since it was his role to unleash SnH. That said, and I have yet to watch the episode mind you, Hecate taking the Reiji Maigo is just too unbelievable for me, it smells of contrived pandering.

1. Yuuji can sense the presence of PoE. Sabrac could hide his from Yuuji by spreading it around, but Hecate can't. How could he possibly get caught?
2. How can he possibly be alive? Isn't stealing a Noble Phantasm supposed to destroy a Mystes? How did she get past the Keeper?
3. If SnH was really behind this...why? Hecate's stealing from her own lord, what good would that do him?

It annoys me that SnH might get portrayed as a purely evil villain rather than a good-willed vigilante; if he is set to appear soon, it'll be in a situation where he puts pressure on Yuuji for no apparent reason. The whole reasonable edge to SnH gets squandered.
I don't know the answers to most of those questions either, and I hope that more will be revealed in this and the upcoming eps. I don't want to judge the storyline before it's even complete. As far as why Hecate would take the Reiji Maigo assuming SnH will still make an appearance though, well isn't Bal Masque still under the assumption that the Silver is going to be his vessel? That's the reason they're keeping it there isn't it?
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Old 2008-03-14, 03:06   Link #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HashiriyaR32 View Post
I would like to say the following to points 1 and 5

*image of Kyon was here*
Wrong aspect ratio, correct to 640x360, etc etc...

Episode 22 was...interesting... I'll just leave it at that. I can't wait to see the final episodes. Wonder if it's gonna wrap up or give a go at a third season. I haven't read the novels so I guess I'm better off? However, in the Ike-crossing-the-street scene, I did notice two things. One, the traffic is totally inconsistent. From one angle, it's a busy street. From the second, it's completely empty. From a third, it has parked cars. And from a fourth, said parked cars are gone. Come on, now. No excuse. I've made a clip of that part without any audio, so there are no spoilers for anything in Episode 22. People who haven't seen it yet, feel free to check out the animators being lazy.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/pn04tx

But in that same scene was a bit of wonderful gold. I'll put it in a spoiler tag even though it's not a spoiler because I don't want someone claiming it's a spoiler and then this post goes bye-bye.

Spoiler:
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Old 2008-03-14, 03:25   Link #88
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well, i am ok with an anime original ending, but i am a bit confused by why hecate extracted the reiji maigo from yuji, hope ep23 will explain that.
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Old 2008-03-14, 03:43   Link #89
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Poor Hayato. No one cares if he's around, and he's even less priority than the surroundings.

Why doesn't anyone wish for a Kazumi x Hayato turnout? Then both of them can exit the scene gracefully.
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Old 2008-03-14, 03:46   Link #90
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Originally Posted by teelotes View Post
Poor Hayato. No one cares if he's around, and he's even less priority than the surroundings.

Why doesn't anyone wish for a Kazumi x Hayato turnout? Then both of them can exit the scene gracefully.
Oh I think everyone wants a Kazumi x Hayato pairing. She's annoying, he's barely around. Good combination.

EDIT: Everybody except ChrissyXD
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Old 2008-03-14, 04:05   Link #91
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Originally Posted by Nomake Wan View Post
Wrong aspect ratio, correct to 640x360, etc etc...

Episode 22 was...interesting... I'll just leave it at that. I can't wait to see the final episodes. Wonder if it's gonna wrap up or give a go at a third season. I haven't read the novels so I guess I'm better off? However, in the Ike-crossing-the-street scene, I did notice two things. One, the traffic is totally inconsistent. From one angle, it's a busy street. From the second, it's completely empty. From a third, it has parked cars. And from a fourth, said parked cars are gone. Come on, now. No excuse. I've made a clip of that part without any audio, so there are no spoilers for anything in Episode 22. People who haven't seen it yet, feel free to check out the animators being lazy.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/pn04tx

But in that same scene was a bit of wonderful gold. I'll put it in a spoiler tag even though it's not a spoiler because I don't want someone claiming it's a spoiler and then this post goes bye-bye.

Spoiler:

I was seriously going to laugh if the Z passed by and Ike saw Fumina in the passenger seat. If you don't get what I mean, you'll know soon enough.
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Old 2008-03-14, 05:00   Link #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cnnydz View Post
well, i am ok with an anime original ending, but i am a bit confused by why hecate extracted the reiji maigo from yuji, hope ep23 will explain that.
I already explained this on the comments of aroduc's blog. Hecate doesn't want Yuji to be... you know what I mean. My guess is that the Konoe in head has caused her to either some sort of hatred or love for him, because he's prominent in the memories of Konoe. Of course, that sounds incredibly stupid.
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Old 2008-03-14, 07:22   Link #93
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Good episode ^^

I enjoyed Shana's reaction to the baby stuff...and Yuji's conversation with his father was done very well as well. And I enjoyed Yoshida's and SHana's 'date' or so to say. Oh yeah, I enjoyed Sabrac glaring at Dantalion..or how you write it (the professor). Looks like he really has a grudge against him XD

The ending was sudden, but I expected something to happen. With the konoe arc behind us, I expected Hecate to show up once again. It's interesting to see how they'll handle this. I'm all open for some anime-only stuff as long as they'll handle it well enough.

I think that it's a bit too soon for complaining though. There are still 2 whole episodes and I'm sure that they'll give us a good explanation for what happened in this episode.

My prediction:
I think that the balle masque just wants to place the reiji maigo in the Silver. And the balle masque has been planning to get the reiji maigo and the silver together all season already. You could say that the season has been building up to this anime-only part.

Spoiler for spoilers:


So many things could happen. Maybe something will go wrong. Maybe the flame hazes will stop her. Maybe this is some kind of illusion. Maybe Hecate is still in the castle of the balle masque and she's just making contact with the reiji maigo somehow with her staff. Who knows. Everything could happen. I'm very interested in next episode.
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Old 2008-03-14, 07:50   Link #94
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Originally Posted by minhtam2448 View Post
Oh I think everyone wants a Kazumi x Hayato pairing. She's annoying, he's barely around. Good combination.

EDIT: Everybody except ChrissyXD


Ending combos:
Shana - Dead
Hecate - Dead
Metamorphosis - Dead
Yuji X Kazumi
Tanaka X Oga
Margery X Sato
Ike X Wilhelemina ()

Right?
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Old 2008-03-14, 07:59   Link #95
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Originally Posted by Malintex_Terek View Post
Alright.

Let me start off by saying generally I hate fanservice. There are shows that are made for it, and I think it belongs there. Shana is not one of these shows. It is a rather serious story about a boy and a girl, it was never intended (in my eyes) to end up as just another harem drama/comedy, not unlike School Days or Ninomiya-kun (to name a few).
I don't really see a harem - not since Konoe was absorbed back into Hecate anyway. Hecate herself is certainly no part of a Yuji harem... she's trying to kill him, essentially.

The Konoe section was a bit too long, with not enough action breaks in it - if they had just one fewer "slice of life" episode, and one more action-esque episode, I would have been perfectly Ok with it. Still, as filler goes, I liked it more than the sort of filler you see in animes like Bleach, and Dragonball Z

I guess that were you see "harem", I see "slice of life", and while I myself have grown to dislike harem anime, I do like slice of life anime episodes (in moderation - Shana overdid it for a bit).

Quote:

Since Shana involves a high school boy and love, it's natural to assume there would be some dramatic tension, but too much of the show's "uniqueness" is getting wasted by focusing on this harem stuff that's not going anywhere. How's Shana unique? Here's a summary of the premise in a single sentence:

One day, a young student named Sakai Yuuji discovers he is not only dead, but is permanently involved in a timless war between malevolent beings called Tomogara and Flame Haze, humans who have allied with Tomogara to hunt them.

How does this premise - a war of humans versus Tomogara - connect to slice of life highschool melodrama?? It only connects vaguely, through Yuuji and Shana and their dynamic; the whole uniqueness of the Shana series is being wasted by not being focused on.
You're right in the sense that the main creative stroke and principal catalyst of both action and uniqueness in Shana is the fascinating war between the Tomogara and Flame Haze, with humans caught in the middle and typically abused or disregarded by both groups.

However, in any good war story, you don't lose sight of those individual and personal elements that make you care about the damaging affects of the war.

As Joseph Stalin said, one death is a tragedy while a thousand deaths is a statistic.

So, the most important thing for an anime with war in it to do is to make you really care about the characters... otherwise the broader drama and impact of the war itself is lost. If you don't care about these characters, then why would you care about the war?

One way to make people care about the characters is to show nice slice-of-life episodes every now and then - to show glimpses of the friendly and serene sort of life that the protagonists (and their supporting cast) are able to have when the war is at a low ebb.

I think that Shana Season 2 tries to take half of their episodes for this goal, and take another half of their episodes for focusing on the action, conflict, and violence of the war itself. Now, that ratio might be a bit too slanted towards "slice of life", but it isn't as bad a ratio as I think some people view it.

Quote:

What I'm saying is, for those harem episodes, if you took those episodes out of context and showed them to someone who had no idea about what the series was about, he/she wouldn't think of it as an action show. That person would think of it as a generic harem show with good art and average animation.
I really don't get this harem vibe. For several episodes now, it's back to the love triangle, which isn't a harem.

And even the Konoe bit was barely a harem - with three girls seemingly interested in Yuji. In retrospect though, that was never a harem either, as Konoe wasn't a true Harem member in the sense of harem members given by Ranma Saotome's or Negi Springfield's or Tenchi Misaki's harem... but rather a copy of Hecate who was callously using Yuji.

Hecate might be moe, but that doesn't change the fact that she's a cold, selfish and self-centered antagonist, who'll gladly snuff out the life of an innocent teenage boy to achieve her goals. And honestly, Hecate might be moe compared to most anime villains, but she's no Osaka (Azumanga Daioh). If she's the most moe character in Shana than it's not a very moe anime (which I agree with you it shouldn't be).

Quote:

What I'm trying to get at is this huge involving plot is getting wasted on the harem stuff. It's connected to the fanservice in that Hecate, who is a beloved icon in doujin circles for Shana and was one of the most popular characters last season despite her short tenure because she was "moe", is getting screentime.
I actually liked Hecate in Season 1 for her characterization... not her appearance. I found the concept of a sheltered antagonstic character starving for meaningful life experience, and perhaps what could even be called spirituality, fairly interesting. Now, Hecate has come across as increasingly evil and unsympathetic to me in Season 2, so some of that initial interest in the character has been lost for me. Still, Hecate remains a solid recurring Shana antagonist - she fulfills that role well, I feel.

Quote:

That's the fanservice - Hecate focus.
I really don't see that. Actually, Shana Season 2 took a longer break from Hecate than I thought that they would. The Konoe arc, filler though it may be, made it very clear that Hecate would be the main antagonist of Shana Season 2.

I feel that the use of Hecate in Shana Season 2 has been downright judicious - they've used her just enough to have her come across as the main villain of Shana Season 2, but nowhere near enough to make someone who doesn't already dislike her character to grow sick of her.

Quote:
Fanservice is pandering to people by doing something, either jiggling breasts, cooing or getting naked. It can also mean focus on a particular character (not just an item of said character), and Hecate, who has a rather small role in the novels compared with her anime incarnation. All of this is done at the sacrifice of the overall aesthetic of the story - substituting Sairei no Hebi for Hecate to fanboys will have an incentive to buy the DVDs.
You really think that Hecate's moe factor is that huge? Wow, the female villain is cute and all, but again, she's no Osaka in that department.

I can understand your desire to strictly limit the amount of moe in a serious anime like Shakugan no Shana, but I think that you're taking it to the point where you've developed a strong bias against a good villain who happens to be a bit moe. Hecate has served her villain role fine, imo.

Last edited by Triple_R; 2008-03-14 at 08:15.
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Old 2008-03-14, 08:03   Link #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post


Ending combos:
Shana - Dead
Hecate - Dead
Metamorphosis - Dead
Yuji X Kazumi
Tanaka X Oga
Margery X Sato
Ike X Wilhelemina ()

Right?
Nah... we might need some more yuri.

Or better yet, Shana starts to feel feelings of the real Yukari Hirai and starts falling in love with Hayato, leaving an opening for a MMFF orgy!

j/k, we all know it's Yuji x Shana.
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Old 2008-03-14, 08:05   Link #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post


Ending combos:
Shana - Dead
Hecate - Dead
Metamorphosis - Dead
Yuji X Kazumi
Tanaka X Oga
Margery X Sato
Ike X Wilhelemina ()

Right?
1.) Shana is not goin to die, unless Yuji dies with her.
2.) I agree
3.) I Agree
4.) you forgot Bel-Peor
5.) Only gonna happen in your fanfics.
6.) I agree Tanaka, and Oga are so cute.
7.) As much as I would like to see this it probably won't be shown in the Anime, or the Novels.
8.) Your joking right......
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Old 2008-03-14, 08:14   Link #98
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Originally Posted by DeotoxSlayer View Post
1.) Shana is not goin to die, unless Yuji dies with her.
2.) I agree
3.) I Agree
4.) you forgot Bel-Peor
5.) Only gonna happen in your fanfics.
6.) I agree Tanaka, and Oga are so cute.
7.) As much as I would like to see this it probably won't be shown in the Anime, or the Novels.
8.) Your joking right......
Ike: Wilhelemina, I'm so tired. This whole "Flame Haze" thing is a bit of a shock.
Wilhelemina: You complain too much ~de arimasu~
Ike: I'm sorry. But could you please stop walking so fast?
Wilhelemina: Must make haste to Tomogara station ~de arimasu
Headband: Time Important
Ike: *Sigh*



I omitted Bel-Peor because she's never shown romantic interest in anyone in the love net.


minhtam: Or Hikari breaks out of Shana, as Shana had been collecting power of existance, and there was enough for Hikari to come alive again, and Shana admits that she loves Hikari.
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Old 2008-03-14, 08:15   Link #99
CapoExecutor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DX HBK View Post
The omens of the future aren't always good things.
Yet the Sakai household has new life that came from a midnight fling.
The cards of every player's deck each have become like a great stack.
But at least Bel Peol gets to show off her rather prominent rack.
The season sure comes in with a lot of Christmas cheer.
But in Misaki City, you would also have a lot of unresolved fear.
Yuji has just reached the dividing paths in true thinking mode.
But his decision is disrupted by Hecate, the goddess of the crossroads.
Been awhile since you composed your lines, buddy.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DX HBK View Post
Everything needs a bit of something called diversity.
Even the plots and scripts derived from the original story.
What's the point of having something that follows the original to the letter?
It obviously in the long run won't show or present anything better.
Don't put the blame on the production team for their antics.
It's all about the finances that leeches on them like bloodthirsty ticks.
If one doesn't like what they see, that person doesn't always speak for everyone.
Either ignore it or write reviews to the producers about errors that weigh more than a ton.
Even in a serious debate, you surprise me.



Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post


Ending combos:
Shana - Dead
Hecate - Dead
Metamorphosis - Dead
Yuji X Kazumi
Tanaka X Oga
Margery X Sato
Ike X Wilhelemina ()

Right?
No way in hell is Ike ever going to be paired with Wilhelmina.

Bel Peol X Ken Yoshida (because she likes to torture little kids)
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Old 2008-03-14, 08:30   Link #100
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I could see Metamorphosis and Bel Peol ending up together... if they both survive to the end.

Kazumi/Ike would have been ideal, since it solves the love triangle in a way that leaves the fewest unhappy unattached characters, but it's unlikely now.

I actually think that there's a pretty good chance that Kazumi or Shana will die. The Kazumi-Yuji-Shana love triangle now strikes me as one that resolves itself by one of the corners getting cut off... honestly, that strikes me as the only way it gets resolved at this rate.
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