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Old 2008-03-14, 10:23   Link #921
Jimmy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Well, since we can't see them at all, how do we even know that they were aiming, or the shots came of their own volition, or that they were shots?
I asked you about position, and you want to ask about aim and other stuff? If you don't have an answer on the position issue, I can accept that. Don't try to distract me by changing the subject.
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Old 2008-03-14, 11:58   Link #922
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Let me ask you. Why does Nanoha, for example (according to you), do short jinks to shoot, and long, long jinks that give people time to aim otherwise?
When did I say that? All I assumed in that plot was that the beams were aimed with fair accuracy so they were probably near where their opponents beams went around the time they were fired. I drew lines with little extra movement to get a general idea for what was necessary but I have no idea exactly how they were maneuvering, just that a lot of back-and-forth was happening on Nanoha's part.

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Here's the problem. From the SoD point of view, the "slow" beam scenes, which contain lots of sound, have their timerates pretty much locked. You might be able to bump it up / down 10% but that's no help considering the base crudeness of our observations. Scenes like this one with few sounds are victims of being sped-up, if I'm to assume they are beams at all.
Timerates shouldn't be considered locked by sound in anime. Look at the scene where Nanoha gets knocked off the building at the start of A's. There's sound in that, but she still falls for an impossible amount of time.

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Appealing to literary analysis methods don't do you any good here. A detailed scene has priority then over a non-detailed one there too.
Cinematographic analysis. There's nothing literary about slow-motion.

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Actually, since you can't see either of our combatants positions, it is not even clear (if they are beams), that the first and last parts are the "straight part". Maybe the "distorted" part is on the right course to target. Or maybe none.
I think perhaps you're missing the forest for the trees in this case. Watch it in full motion and you see straight beams with momentary distortions. Same deal with that windblast sequence- animation is about the end effect, not the contents of each frame. Animation in action sequences often wildly deforms characters in individual frames to enhance the appearance of motion in the end product. Nobody would claim that the limbs of the characters in question temporarily turned into noodles or large blurs.

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Quite frankly, the first impression it gave me (remember that right up until Ep17, I was really trying to turn my brain off) is that it is a cheap special effect drawn in by 7Arcs to show that there's a lot of energy in the area. Because there is no way something that random can be sane weapons fire, not to mention that about the only similarity it has with known attacks is that it glows.
Apparently we have wildly divergent definitions of 'random'. Anyway, I thought it was weapons fire the first time I saw it and I don't think it looks anything like the random magic arcs you get in the rest of the series. I don't recall ever seeing any that big that didn't come off a jewel seed, either.

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What mini-beams. And if those mini-beams are any use as weapons, they should have thrown them at each other.
Fate's charged photon lancer against Nanoha in ep. 4, Nanoha's charged divine shooter against Fate in 6, Fate combining the remnants of her phalanx shift in 11, then it's never seen again until StrikerS 8.

Basically they say the name of one of their lightweight spells but end up firing a single beam that looks smaller than their 'full' beam spells. They also don't use the spell rings IIRC.

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That's why used those only as secondaries. Also the blade is not always "powered up".
Hm?
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Old 2008-03-14, 13:03   Link #923
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimmy C View Post
I asked you about position, and you want to ask about aim and other stuff? If you don't have an answer on the position issue, I can accept that. Don't try to distract me by changing the subject.
OK, let's talk about position. One huge problem with Kikaifan's theory, IMO, is right there. If we assume they are attack beams, they will indeed be fired in the positions that he painted (we can shuffle them forward and back along those lines a bit, but the general location is locked - a variant of TMA). And if we assume that they were actually aiming, then they will indeed have to be in that place. Except that the positions when plotted out don't make a whole lot of sense.

We can, of course, abscribe it to stupidity. But along with all other problems, it is probably easier IMO to just say they aren't beams.

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Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
When did I say that? All I assumed in that plot was that the beams were aimed with fair accuracy so they were probably near where their opponents beams went around the time they were fired. I drew lines with little extra movement to get a general idea for what was necessary but I have no idea exactly how they were maneuvering, just that a lot of back-and-forth was happening on Nanoha's part.
Your diagram actually shows with fair accuracy roughly how they would have been moving had your theory been true. Your lines are actually the consequence of your theory.

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Timerates shouldn't be considered locked by sound in anime. Look at the scene where Nanoha gets knocked off the building at the start of A's. There's sound in that, but she still falls for an impossible amount of time.
Emergency flotation magic slowing the fall. Heck, even non-flight capable mages are supposed to have these in their pockets.

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Cinematographic analysis. There's nothing literary about slow-motion.
Nor is there about fast-motion.

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I think perhaps you're missing the forest for the trees in this case. Watch it in full motion and you see straight beams with momentary distortions. Same deal with that windblast sequence- animation is about the end effect, not the contents of each frame. Animation in action sequences often wildly deforms characters in individual frames to enhance the appearance of motion in the end product. Nobody would claim that the limbs of the characters in question temporarily turned into noodles or large blurs.
When the entire attack is maybe 5 frames long, and it jerks up and down for 2 or 3 of them, then that's a major deviation, not something to be casually filtered out as noise.

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Apparently we have wildly divergent definitions of 'random'. Anyway, I thought it was weapons fire the first time I saw it and I don't think it looks anything like the random magic arcs you get in the rest of the series. I don't recall ever seeing any that big that didn't come off a jewel seed, either.
Well, how about the arcs that came down when Arf excited the air - you have to take into account that that was much more of a long-shot.

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Fate's charged photon lancer against Nanoha in ep. 4, Nanoha's charged divine shooter against Fate in 6, Fate combining the remnants of her phalanx shift in 11, then it's never seen again until StrikerS 8.
If I remember correctly, those are very small, and the scale of the animation so large those particles are unlikely to have been more than crawling in comparison to the speeds they show here. For example, all those balls are within a few meters of Fate in Ep11.

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-03-14 at 13:18.
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Old 2008-03-14, 14:28   Link #924
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The city was fine after SLB went through it, but I see your point. Still, it does not inspire me any confidence when barrier jackets and Knight's armor have been damaged or penetrated by:
1) Bugs's windblast
2) Sein's hand (Erio's) (can't blame magic blades here...)
3) Low velocity (compared to bullets) swipes and glances of blades (not a lot of pressure there).
4) Completely penetrated by Type IVs (Type 1s and IIIs produce AMF, but there's no evidence of it from II and IV, and ruther, even a strong AMF has little visible effect against BJs - or we'll be enjoying some nice naked scenes).

I certainly buy that Mid-tech could have made something that can block bullets and blades. But the BJ just doesn't seem to be it. The real pity is that it isn't that hard - the BJs just badly need a single, much neglected component - hard armor plate.
4. Type IVs are the stealth drones right? I believe it mentions a Barrier Jacket's barriers don't activate if you're hit by surprise. They need to have time to react. Also we don't know if they have some special blades since they seem to be made for assassination.

Also I doubt hard plate does anything. Ginga's barrier jacket has what looks like a hard plate breastplate but by going on this logic it would imply someone whose barrier jacket is say... A knight's armor should be stronger then say Nanoha's which is a variation on a magical girl outfit.

I believe a barrier jacket's look is purely cosmetic (With some exceptions, since Fate's barrier jacket is so revealing in order to make her "faster") and even if your jacket was just some dental floss it'd be as protecting as a suit of armor. Granted the mages both had the same level of magical talent. A jacket's "defense" probably stems from the mage's talent. (So hence Nanoha's barrier jacket would be a lot stronger then say Erio's, Erio is only a C rank or B rank mage isn't he?)
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Old 2008-03-14, 15:59   Link #925
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Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
4. Type IVs are the stealth drones right? I believe it mentions a Barrier Jacket's barriers don't activate if you're hit by surprise. They need to have time to react. Also we don't know if they have some special blades since they seem to be made for assassination.
Special blades in the absence of evidence... meet Occam's Razor.

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Also I doubt hard plate does anything. Ginga's barrier jacket has what looks like a hard plate breastplate but by going on this logic it would imply someone whose barrier jacket is say... A knight's armor should be stronger then say Nanoha's which is a variation on a magical girl outfit.
The "knight's armor" we've seen is also mostly made of cloth. It really has nothing to do with whether how effective hard armor would be compared to soft armor.
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Old 2008-03-14, 16:06   Link #926
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Special blades in the absence of evidence... meet Occam's Razor.
Occam's Razor?

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The "knight's armor" we've seen is also mostly made of cloth. It really has nothing to do with whether how effective hard armor would be compared to soft armor.
Yeah I know that. Hayate thought it up and said she'd make "knight-like clothes".
I'm just saying I wouldn't imagine if you thought up a barrier jacket that looked like a suit of platemail would be any more protecting then Nanoha's.
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Old 2008-03-14, 16:22   Link #927
Avatar_notADV
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Well, let's analyze barrier jacket coverage, shall we?

First off, we can assume that there is, at the least, an argument for not just going out in a barrier jacket done up like a suit of plate mail, as nobody does that (and it's the rather obvious thing to do, if there was an advantage to be gained, huh?)

If we look at the barrier jackets used by TSAB people, they tend to have pretty full body coverage, excluding the head. The standard uniform is basically a normal military outfit with added breastplate. Chrono's duster-jacket is not only badass, but covers basically everything except his noggin. Crucially, I don't remember anyone using a helmet anywhere, which is -really- suggestive; obviously there is some sort of head protection provided by the barrier jacket, or they'd definitely go in for some kind of head-covering. (Qualify this: it's an anime, helmets cover heads/hair/faces, making characters hard to identify, so you can expect that named characters will not wear helmets even when otherwise indicated. Starship Troopers movie syndrome.)

The most exposure of any named character's barrier jacket is Subaru, who has big uncovered areas (legs and torso). Not truly proof - Subaru's much more durable than standard-issue human and can get by with less protection, possibly. Others have mentioned Sonic-mode Fate, though I don't think that's so much a matter of "weight" as "repurposing" - some of her BJ elements are devoted to propulsion instead of protection.

That said, it's obvious that the barrier jackets can protect even exposed flesh - Elio's legs, Tia's arms and legs, Subaru's stomach and legs, Hayate's legs (possibly an oversight in the design phase there - how important does a paraplegic think her legs are, anyway?), practically everybody's head. Thus, the protective capabilities aren't just "tough magical cloth" and presumably aren't enhanced by sticking actual metal in there. (Then again, who knows?)
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Old 2008-03-14, 19:28   Link #928
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
Occam's Razor?
Occam's Razar, a philisophical and scientific understanding that when there is a lack of hard scientific proof, when pressented with multiple possible solutions, the simplest solution is most often the correct one.

IOW: Nature Favors Simplicity. And the simplest answer is usually the right one.


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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Well, let's analyze barrier jacket coverage, shall we?

First off, we can assume that there is, at the least, an argument for not just going out in a barrier jacket done up like a suit of plate mail, as nobody does that (and it's the rather obvious thing to do, if there was an advantage to be gained, huh?)
Mass and freedom of movement. The same things that keep us from putting people in plate armor now. For the defensive advantages it would give, the drawbacks in mobility are too great due to weight problems. Though this may well be a thing of the past if the research into powered exosketons makes it into the mainstream. The main problem at this point is power supply.


Quote:
If we look at the barrier jackets used by TSAB people, they tend to have pretty full body coverage, excluding the head. The standard uniform is basically a normal military outfit with added breastplate. Chrono's duster-jacket is not only badass, but covers basically everything except his noggin. Crucially, I don't remember anyone using a helmet anywhere, which is -really- suggestive; obviously there is some sort of head protection provided by the barrier jacket, or they'd definitely go in for some kind of head-covering. (Qualify this: it's an anime, helmets cover heads/hair/faces, making characters hard to identify, so you can expect that named characters will not wear helmets even when otherwise indicated. Starship Troopers movie syndrome.)
A bit of an arbitrary reason to not have helmets, but we can handwave that away. Though, someone probably could have come up with Unique helmet designs, or at least head covering.


Quote:
The most exposure of any named character's barrier jacket is Subaru, who has big uncovered areas (legs and torso). Not truly proof - Subaru's much more durable than standard-issue human and can get by with less protection, possibly. Others have mentioned Sonic-mode Fate, though I don't think that's so much a matter of "weight" as "repurposing" - some of her BJ elements are devoted to propulsion instead of protection.
Freedom of movement more likely. Likely she moves faster than her own fields in terms of reflexes and physical speeds. Removing them gives her that much more ability to move freely. At very short reaction times, the scale of time starts to drop into the 'every milisecond counts' range.

Quote:
That said, it's obvious that the barrier jackets can protect even exposed flesh - Elio's legs, Tia's arms and legs, Subaru's stomach and legs, Hayate's legs (possibly an oversight in the design phase there - how important does a paraplegic think her legs are, anyway?), practically everybody's head. Thus, the protective capabilities aren't just "tough magical cloth" and presumably aren't enhanced by sticking actual metal in there. (Then again, who knows?)
Actually, assuming you could deal with the weight issue, putting armor plating on a mage would improve the ability to withstand blows. It becomes a layered defense. The magic barrier would work as always, but the armor plate would provide the same protection as its non-magic counterparts. Depending on composition, density, and thickness, that COULD be significant... But again, at the cost of weight. From a practical standpoint, this would be one-up on barrier jackets as normal. But with practical plate armor designs, you can't get the frilly fancy costume designs quite as well.
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Old 2008-03-14, 21:21   Link #929
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
4. Type IVs are the stealth drones right? I believe it mentions a Barrier Jacket's barriers don't activate if you're hit by surprise. They need to have time to react.
Fat lot of good that will do against a bullet then... if I've got time to react I'll be putting up a god-darn shield!

Quote:
Also I doubt hard plate does anything. Ginga's barrier jacket has what looks like a hard plate breastplate but by going on this logic it would imply someone whose barrier jacket is say... A knight's armor should be stronger then say Nanoha's which is a variation on a magical girl outfit.
Depends on the kind of attack. Against a bullet-like attack, however, hardness (in the layman sense) does matter. Being magical, the UTS in physical terms may indeed be the same either way, but the hard plate (make it of whatever) quickly spreads impact force over a large area without any magicobabble and does not deform as much. The soft fabric might not actually be penetrated, but it'll deform and stretch under the bullet's pressure, so the bullet actually burrows into flesh, which is not what you want.

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I believe a barrier jacket's look is purely cosmetic (With some exceptions, since Fate's barrier jacket is so revealing in order to make her "faster") and even if your jacket was just some dental floss it'd be as protecting as a suit of armor. Granted the mages both had the same level of magical talent. A jacket's "defense" probably stems from the mage's talent. (So hence Nanoha's barrier jacket would be a lot stronger then say Erio's, Erio is only a C rank or B rank mage isn't he?)
Actually, it'll seem that the barrier jacket's look correlates to some extent as to how well it defends.

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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Well, let's analyze barrier jacket coverage, shall we?

First off, we can assume that there is, at the least, an argument for not just going out in a barrier jacket done up like a suit of plate mail, as nobody does that (and it's the rather obvious thing to do, if there was an advantage to be gained, huh?)
Personally, I'll have thought stocks for long-range shooting is a rather obvious thing to do as well (for even longer ranges a bipod / tripod is welcome, but I'll grant a Device is supposed to be mobile).

On the other hand, the knights originally asked for armor before settling on knight-like clothes. Let's face it. Armor ain't fun. Nobody asks for it if they can do as well dressed in pajamas.

Quote:
Crucially, I don't remember anyone using a helmet anywhere, which is -really- suggestive; obviously there is some sort of head protection provided by the barrier jacket, or they'd definitely go in for some kind of head-covering. (Qualify this: it's an anime, helmets cover heads/hair/faces, making characters hard to identify, so you can expect that named characters will not wear helmets even when otherwise indicated. Starship Troopers movie syndrome.)

The most exposure of any named character's barrier jacket is Subaru, who has big uncovered areas (legs and torso). Not truly proof - Subaru's much more durable than standard-issue human and can get by with less protection, possibly. Others have mentioned Sonic-mode Fate, though I don't think that's so much a matter of "weight" as "repurposing" - some of her BJ elements are devoted to propulsion instead of protection.

That said, it's obvious that the barrier jackets can protect even exposed flesh - Elio's legs, Tia's arms and legs, Subaru's stomach and legs, Hayate's legs (possibly an oversight in the design phase there - how important does a paraplegic think her legs are, anyway?), practically everybody's head. Thus, the protective capabilities aren't just "tough magical cloth" and presumably aren't enhanced by sticking actual metal in there. (Then again, who knows?)
Well, not many people have actually clubbed them in those places. I will note that Teana got clubbed in the leg by Deed, rendering it almost unusable. Fate gets wounded ... in the leg. Subaru gets really bloody after taking Overdetonation ... in the uncovered places. Oh, I'm sure there's something protecting them elsewhere, but it is not at all clear that it is of the same strength as the stuff protecting the covered areas.

As for the lack of helmets ... well, we know that helmets are protective, and still not everyone puts them on when using their motorbike.

Of course, given SS Ep07, maybe the truth is that the jacket's covered positions are equally unprotective (not quite the same thing), but then we'll really need hard plate...

Oh yeah. While we are on the topic of things that have penetrated barrier jackets, how could I have forgotten Precia's whip? A real bullet stopper - Fate's jacket...

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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Mass and freedom of movement. The same things that keep us from putting people in plate armor now. For the defensive advantages it would give, the drawbacks in mobility are too great due to weight problems. Though this may well be a thing of the past if the research into powered exosketons makes it into the mainstream. The main problem at this point is power supply.
Actually, we are putting people in plate armor again - Interceptor Body Vests have little pieces of plate inserted so they'll handle 7.62 fire.

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Actually, assuming you could deal with the weight issue, putting armor plating on a mage would improve the ability to withstand blows. It becomes a layered defense. The magic barrier would work as always, but the armor plate would provide the same protection as its non-magic counterparts. Depending on composition, density, and thickness, that COULD be significant... But again, at the cost of weight. From a practical standpoint, this would be one-up on barrier jackets as normal. But with practical plate armor designs, you can't get the frilly fancy costume designs quite as well.
Can't they at least put some plate in vital areas, like the breasts (thus accentuating them while covering the heart?)
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Old 2008-03-14, 23:52   Link #930
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post


Actually, we are putting people in plate armor again - Interceptor Body Vests have little pieces of plate inserted so they'll handle 7.62 fire.
While that IS plate armor, the concept is something more like full scale total body armor from head to toe VIA a Knight.


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Can't they at least put some plate in vital areas, like the breasts (thus accentuating them while covering the heart?)
To get effective coverage against all these nasty wide area impacting magical attacks alone, you need more than a breast plate. Half the shit explodes on impact. You also need to protect key blood vessels and other vital areas. Wouldn't do you any good if you had a nice heavy armor brest plate, and had a hole blown in your stomach in which your intestines would spill out of and cause you to bleed to death slowely and painfully, now would it?

The heart is a near instant kill, but any major injury puts Grim on Standby. Injuries to major arteries could result in fatal blood loss. And you could get injuries like this from a lucky puncture wound to the leg.
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Old 2008-03-15, 00:00   Link #931
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To get effective coverage against all these nasty wide area impacting magical attacks alone, you need more than a breast plate. Half the shit explodes on impact. You also need to protect key blood vessels and other vital areas. Wouldn't do you any good if you had a nice heavy armor brest plate, and had a hole blown in your stomach in which your intestines would spill out of and cause you to bleed to death slowely and painfully, now would it?

The heart is a near instant kill, but any major injury puts Grim on Standby. Injuries to major arteries could result in fatal blood loss. And you could get injuries like this from a lucky puncture wound to the leg.
True. But the normal defenses seem reasonably able against wide area magic attacks (or is it because most of them are set on "anti-magic" rather than physical?) What's needed is reinforcement against sharp, high pressure blows - bullets, blades ... etc.
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Old 2008-03-15, 00:04   Link #932
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Which also have counters, called 'armor piercing'.

Like I said, to get GOOD physical armor against today's gear, you need to get the good materials... usually high density, and very heavy. And to get that in any decent coverage, you'll have to cover the body pretty well. Which, if you don't have a mechanism to counter it, leaves you with too much bulk, and no mobility, and that in turn, allows the bigger weapons to hit you more easily.

(And why I opt for powered exoskeletons to support the armor. All the mobility of a man, all the armor of a mini-TANK.)
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Old 2008-03-15, 01:44   Link #933
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Just something I wanna chime in: during Operation Enduring Freedom, US troops basically had just vests covering the chest and back. What happened was that while they had decent protection front and back, but no side protection and groin protection; IBA vests protect more areas on the body than the earlier vests.

As for the plates, US body armor has been using plates since the early 90s; read Black Hawk Down: the Rangers and Delta operators had insert plates for their body armor, but most only put their plates in front, leaving their backs unprotected. IBA isn't really that new... well, except for being the first type of body armor to have protection for the groin.

Compared to 10, 15 years ago, IBA (and the USMC variant FSBEV, which is held to be better) protect more parts of the body. They also reduce your mobility and you cannot run as fast.

And yes, as ATC said, it's a neverending race between body armor and armor-piercing rounds. At the moment, the side which can whip out the HMGs and use them wins: NO body armor available right now can tank a .50cal round. (And I've heard that body armor makes things worse if you're shot with the Mk211 Mod 0 Raufuss HE/API round, since it slows the round long enough for the HE to detonate. Apparently if used on human targets, the round blows through and the HE detonates afterwards. And this isn't even talking about the AP penetrator... mind you, this is a moot point, since most people die from being hit by .50cal rounds.)

I'm thinking that perhaps the reason barrier jackets are so light may have to do with mass and inertia... I'll think about it more and come back later when I've thought it out more properly.
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Old 2008-03-15, 04:18   Link #934
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On the subject of armor: Saying 'Barrier Jackets don't protect areas that are not clothed' makes no sense. Sure, for people like Teana and Nanoha, who are not in te frontlines, it makes sense, but when you look at how many melee fighters leave their legs uncovered, it loses that sense.

To explain, in armed melee combat, one of the primairy areas to get hit is the leg. Arms are close secondery, torso is tertairy. A melee fighter leaving his legs uncovered is risking serious and easy injuries, even though armor can be put on without removing or even reducing mobillity. If all that is needed is a layer of cloth, then it makes even less sense to leave the legs unguarded.

Now, if we look at the amount melee fighters in Nanoha leave their legs uncovered (Signum, Vita, Erio, Arf, Subaru) it is safe to asume that Barrier Jackets do in fact cover for unclothed areas. The only other alternative would be to asume nobody in Nanoha save Vivio knows anything about melee fights.
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Old 2008-03-15, 04:40   Link #935
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TWO Erios now? Do we have CLONES?!

*Tigerclaw prepares to nuke the thread.*
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Old 2008-03-15, 04:56   Link #936
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TWO Erios now? Do we have CLONES?!

*Tigerclaw prepares to nuke the thread.*
Yup, we have clones. Fate, Erio, Vivio... that's 3 clones from the top of my head, and the numbers are technically clones as well, so....
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Old 2008-03-15, 05:07   Link #937
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
4. Type IVs are the stealth drones right? I believe it mentions a Barrier Jacket's barriers don't activate if you're hit by surprise. They need to have time to react.
Which would still be a HUGE weakness that anyone with a gun and the tiniest skill in camouflage could exploit.

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Also we don't know if they have some special blades since they seem to be made for assassination.
Because just adding this as another example of how jackets really aren't effective against psychical impacts is clearly totally illogical this muhc better...

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Also I doubt hard plate does anything. Ginga's barrier jacket has what looks like a hard plate breastplate but by going on this logic it would imply someone whose barrier jacket is say... A knight's armor should be stronger then say Nanoha's which is a variation on a magical girl outfit.
Why is that illogical? If I say "Jacket" and "Armor" one would tend to assume the later would offer rather more protection then the former. Further a kngiht would be fighting in close presumably against other people wielding psychical weapons it would only be sane to expect they'd want and try to gain more protection. Just like real knights and foot soldiers did, while archers wore at best leather with metal studs if that.

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I believe a barrier jacket's look is purely cosmetic (With some exceptions, since Fate's barrier jacket is so revealing in order to make her "faster") and even if your jacket was just some dental floss it'd be as protecting as a suit of armor. Granted the mages both had the same level of magical talent. A jacket's "defense" probably stems from the mage's talent. (So hence Nanoha's barrier jacket would be a lot stronger then say Erio's, Erio is only a C rank or B rank mage isn't he?)
We had pretty much this exact same debate before in the OC thread anyway I never bought any of that “invisible shield outside of jacket” nonsense then and still don’t. As said I’ve seen this augment before and it’s nonsensical IMO. Not least of all since canon itself in booklets and such talks about how the amount of material matters and sonic form is hyped repeatedly as being extremely dangerous due to weak coverage and probably thin layers. This ONLY make’s sense if the jacket itself is the primary defensive competent.

Also say you got someone to just look at Nanoha having no preconceptions do you think they would look at it and the jackets and go. “Hmm you know despite them being called jackets and armor and stuff having different modes I bet that the material is acutally totally irrelevant and instead it’s acutally invisible force fields protecting them from harm”. That really is basiclly your argument in a nutshell and it’s rather stupid IMO.

Barrier jackets have never really shown resilience to bladed or kinetic weapons mages ability to mess with gravity seems to allow them to sustain more blunt impact force then you’d expect possibly by screwing with inertial and spreading impacts (which even modern soft armor can do), but that’s a different then deflecting bullets or knives.

It also neatly helps explain why guns are outlawed if the jackets provide marginal protection at best and almost none on uncovered areas then while one guy with a gun might not be much of a threat a platoon dug into hard cover

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Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
Yeah I know that. Hayate thought it up and said she'd make "knight-like clothes".
I'm just saying I wouldn't imagine if you thought up a barrier jacket that looked like a suit of platemail would be any more protecting then Nanoha's.
If it was thicker and hard it might well be, it would also probably weigh more mind and while knights where far more agile then many would think the armor did still impede movement somewhat.

That said let's face it Hayate at that time was not any kind of armorer or tactical genius when she thought this stuff up as you noted she thought up "knight like cloths" not armor, but basiclly glorified costumes. The Knights might have called them "armor" out of habit, but let's face it wasn't "armor" under sane definition.
Spoiler for Armor:


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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
Well, let's analyze barrier jacket coverage, shall we?

First off, we can assume that there is, at the least, an argument for not just going out in a barrier jacket done up like a suit of plate mail, as nobody does that (and it's the rather obvious thing to do, if there was an advantage to be gained, huh?)
The fact that most of these people thought up jackets at the age of 9 or 10 is a bit of an issue they'd have not a clue what makes effective armor and given there exhibited tactical ineptitude in other areas even years later assuming they'd learn better and change is hardly a given either.

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If we look at the barrier jackets used by TSAB people, they tend to have pretty full body coverage, excluding the head. The standard uniform is basically a normal military outfit with added breastplate.
Fancy that a combat uniform with armor plates, but I thought those gave no advantage?

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Chrono's duster-jacket is not only badass, but covers basically everything except his noggin. Crucially, I don't remember anyone using a helmet anywhere, which is -really- suggestive;
Of rampant stupidity.

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obviously there is some sort of head protection provided by the barrier jacket, or they'd definitely go in for some kind of head-covering.
Or there idiots many European armies went into WWI without helmets sure they they didn't need them and Delta force operators wore hockey helmets with all the ballistic protection of a Fez in Mogadishu.

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(Qualify this: it's an anime, helmets cover heads/hair/faces, making characters hard to identify, so you can expect that named characters will not wear helmets even when otherwise indicated. Starship Troopers movie syndrome.)
Which is no excuse a modern combat helmet dosen't obscure the face much (since the guy needs to you know SEE) and given the flowing manes on half the characters you could ID them by hair alone...

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The most exposure of any named character's barrier jacket is Subaru, who has big uncovered areas (legs and torso). Not truly proof - Subaru's much more durable than standard-issue human and can get by with less protection, possibly.
Basically a certainty IMO.

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Others have mentioned Sonic-mode Fate, though I don't think that's so much a matter of "weight" as "repurposing" - some of her BJ elements are devoted to propulsion instead of protection.
Then why even bother changing appearance? If it's just swamping around some force fields it changing shape makes no god damn sense.

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That said, it's obvious that the barrier jackets can protect even exposed flesh - Elio's legs, Tia's arms and legs, Subaru's stomach and legs, Hayate's legs (possibly an oversight in the design phase there - how important does a paraplegic think her legs are, anyway?), practically everybody's head.
Which is why we see like a half dozen extremity injuries in Strikers alone... Acutally the jackets don't seem to do much of ANYTHING for the limbs IMO even minor hits seem to do serious damage.

We've never seen anyone hit int he head, probably because it would kill them instantly given the lack of protection for there skulls.

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Thus, the protective capabilities aren't just "tough magical cloth" and presumably aren't enhanced by sticking actual metal in there. (Then again, who knows?)
Acutally all evidence and logic says they probably are with perhaps some inertial dampening properties imparted via gravity manipulation.

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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Mass and freedom of movement. The same things that keep us from putting people in plate armor now.
Acutally plate armor wasn't that bad it weighed significantly less then what a modern soldier is expected to march in. Even in armor a knights could run, roll, and even do handstands in it.




And when one can FLY via anti-gravity this is even less of an issue.

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For the defensive advantages it would give, the drawbacks in mobility are too great due to weight problems.
Again weight becomes sort of a secondary concern when one can fly on anti-gravity... It might matter for the suckers stuck on the ground like Teana, but for someone like Nanoha; not nearly as much.

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Though this may well be a thing of the past if the research into powered exosketons makes it into the mainstream. The main problem at this point is power supply.
And moving, and syncing with the user, and being affordable, and reliable enough for feild use. I don't expect any kind of exo-skeleton for at least 20 years and that will be a model to help carry a bigger pack; not an armor plated juggernaut that can shrug off swarms of bullets.

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A bit of an arbitrary reason to not have helmets, but we can handwave that away. Though, someone probably could have come up with Unique helmet designs, or at least head covering.
Or we can just go with the fact that like many other aspects of the TSAB militray the lack of helmets is a case of raging incompetence.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
On the subject of armor: Saying 'Barrier Jackets don't protect areas that are not clothed' makes no sense. Sure, for people like Teana and Nanoha, who are not in te frontlines, it makes sense, but when you look at how many melee fighters leave their legs uncovered, it loses that sense.
It makes perfect sense IMO given the mountain of evidence to support it.

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To explain, in armed melee combat, one of the primairy areas to get hit is the leg. Arms are close secondery, torso is tertairy. A melee fighter leaving his legs uncovered is risking serious and easy injuries, even though armor can be put on without removing or even reducing mobillity. If all that is needed is a layer of cloth, then it makes even less sense to leave the legs unguarded.
First off we must note that a large number of these melee fighters "armor" was designed when:
A: They were 9 or 10
B: Had there "armor" designed by said 9 and 10 year olds.

Yeah sure you could argue they should know better now, but momentum is a powerful thing and it's worked so far so what motive would they have to change?

Further in this case IMO you’re using a real world examples that doesn’t really work here. Yes when your only method of movement is your legs they’re indeed a prime target, but when you and your enemy can FLY the equation changes drastically and they become vastly less important. After all most cuts to the leg are intended to decrease the opponents mobility against an enemy that uses flight for that mobility this is rather worthless. The only real point to cut at them is to in duce bleeding, which you could do just as easily to other areas so the legs lose much of there importance as targets.

Never mind that we see a bunch of extremity injuries during the show which would tend to say that indeed they aren't that well protected. Also you seem to just assume that this cloth will be light; in fact cloth thick enough to act as armor weighs an amount like armor too even without armor plates a modern Kevlar flak jacket weighs around 10 pounds for instance despite being made of "Cloth".

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Now, if we look at the amount melee fighters in Nanoha leave their legs uncovered (Signum, Vita, Erio, Arf, Subaru) it is safe to asume that Barrier Jackets do in fact cover for unclothed areas. The only other alternative would be to asume nobody in Nanoha save Vivio knows anything about melee fights.
Of those only one of them can't fly, although later he starts riding a mount so even he loses most of the drawbacks of unprotected legs.

Further more it was acutally rather common for men to have a helmet and breast plate and no real protection on the legs or arms in real life. Full plate while it had it's upsides was somewhat encumbering and it was difficult to march in it also reduced endurance of even very fit men considerably. This is the same reason modern troops still normally only have vests and helmets despite experiments with full armor systems; that shit is heavy, HOT (a commonly overlooked fact is that body armor can act allot like winter clothing... even if you happen to be in a desert), and constricting.

I'm not arguably that everyone in Nanoha should start wearing plate armor or massive bomb suits as those both have downsides as noted, and might not fit there situations best. I will argue thought that the Jacket IS what provides the protection and they all ought to be wearing frikkin helmets and heavier torso protection in most cases.

Last edited by Tk3997; 2008-03-15 at 05:35.
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Old 2008-03-15, 05:31   Link #938
Keroko
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I'm not buying the 'because they're stupid' argument. Yes, it was stated that the amount of clothing defines the strength of the defense, but that can be explained differently, and far more logically: The Barrier Jacket generate a Field and Barrier, this is a fact. Now, if the Barrier Jacket is what generates this, then logically, when there is more jacket (as in, more fabric) then the defenses become stronger, as there is more source to generate said defences.

We have seen those 'invisible' defenses in action. The 'Fate through the building' part is not a good argument because of the screencut I'll admit, it could work either way. During A's, however, Signum and Fate scored glancing blows on eachother, and you clearly saw Barriers popping up. Now do note that neither was focussed on defending in that scene, both were launching attacks:

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Old 2008-03-15, 05:51   Link #939
Kikaifan
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I just mentioned that talking to Ark but I guess no one read it.

Also Fate's Plasma Lancer shot in the same fight hits Signum straight in the face (and she sure as hell didn't look like she was 'expecting it') and does nothing. And the blast on that one looked comparable to photos I've seen of tanks getting hit by missiles.

There's nothing strange about the IV's being able to penetrate a barrier jacket, they're magitech weapons. I doubt their blades compare to Armed Devices, but if they can stealth I don't see what's odd about them having powered weapons.
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Old 2008-03-15, 08:10   Link #940
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I'm not buying the 'because they're stupid' argument. Yes, it was stated that the amount of clothing defines the strength of the defense, but that can be explained differently, and far more logically: The Barrier Jacket generate a Field and Barrier, this is a fact. Now, if the Barrier Jacket is what generates this, then logically, when there is more jacket (as in, more fabric) then the defenses become stronger, as there is more source to generate said defences.
No great problems there. But by that extension, the parts not under clothing can only be at best minimally protected by the "leftovers" coming from the jacket.

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We have seen those 'invisible' defenses in action. The 'Fate through the building' part is not a good argument because of the screencut I'll admit, it could work either way. During A's, however, Signum and Fate scored glancing blows on eachother, and you clearly saw Barriers popping up. Now do note that neither was focussed on defending in that scene, both were launching attacks:
I've got no objection to the part where they have at least a thin barrier - they must at least have a thin film over the nose to have had any anti-gas capability. Whether they are nearly as capable outside the clothed area is another question entirely.

You will notice, in your example, that the blade was trailing very easy through the so-called barrier. Sure, it is interacting. Whether it will have stopped or even significantly hindered the blow is a whole different story.

[QUOTE=Kikaifan;1461834]I just mentioned that talking to Ark but I guess no one read it.

Also Fate's Plasma Lancer shot in the same fight hits Signum straight in the face (and she sure as hell didn't look like she was 'expecting it') and does nothing. And the blast on that one looked comparable to photos I've seen of tanks getting hit by missiles.

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There's nothing strange about the IV's being able to penetrate a barrier jacket, they're magitech weapons. I doubt their blades compare to Armed Devices, but if they can stealth I don't see what's odd about them having powered weapons.
How many times do we have to see those things get penetrated by windblast (even if I grant it is the bug itself it isn't all that much better), whips ... etc before we just conclude they just aren't very protective against those things?

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-03-15 at 08:30.
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