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Old 2008-03-14, 19:13   Link #1161
Sleepy Speculator
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Hmm as simple as it was clare's plan worked out in the end, though possibly the only one capable of doing it/ and it was practically suicide, but then against rigardo they were outclassed to the point of already being dead. (from jean's pov?)
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Old 2008-03-14, 19:32   Link #1162
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I don't think Helen or Deneve mentioned it because no one asked. Miria had no idea what they were capable of. They were not embarrassed about their abilities and used them plenty. And as long as they did not mention that they had been over their limit it would not have been a problem. They did not know anything was wrong with being partially awakened until after the battle when Miria told them that was why they were all there. Then they knew to shut up and stop acting up.

I understand Miria's difficulty in the process of making quick decisions and it makes me like her more because it makes her a bit more vulnerable and human. It does not change the fact that she struggles with those situations. Where Clare runs in without thinking Miria freezes. Yuma, Deneve, Clare and Helen all beat her in not only making a decision but acting as well while she was still processing. Miria is the fastest claymore speed wise and that should not happen unless she is having a real issue. Rigardo attacking was a shock and definitely not miria's fault. But while she was processing, the other claymores were attacking and defending before she even moved. But when she does move, she moves very very quickly.

Irene and Galatea kept a cool head in equally bad or worse situations. Irene freaked out when she saw Teresa going at almost awakened Priscilla because she knew there was nothing she could do. Even if she ran in she would get killed in the cross fire. But before that she took opportunities to attack afforded her by her comrades which Miria has not done that we have seen. Instead we see Miria taking on the worst situations alone. That is not good for a leader whose real strength lies in being with a group.
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Old 2008-03-14, 19:37   Link #1163
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The 7 ghosts after that the time-skip made Agatha look like childs play so I believe they can stand up to Riful/Alicia/Isley because of the combined abilities of the team and excellent teamwork they have shown. I don't know if they would win but I bet they'd likely take heavy casualties. I don't see them on the level of Priscilla though.
I don't agree because necessarily its very hard to guage a #1 against a #2. It seems like for the most part #1 can be light years a head of #2, #3 or #4. That aside powers deviate generation from generation. Irene tore ophelia apart like it was nothing. What I'm getting at is its very hard to gauge an abyssal ones power against another rank, unless its directly stated.
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Old 2008-03-14, 19:39   Link #1164
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I suppose Miria takes on the tougher situations alone because, in all the teamwork we've seen her so far (except Chapter 78), she's more or less the only warrior left standing.

I wouldn't say whether that's effective or not. But I believe it's all down to the single digits' leadership style. Compare hers and, for example, Flora's or Undine's. Definitely Miria is both responsible & experienced, and the way she manages a team shows that.
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Old 2008-03-14, 19:48   Link #1165
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well as you have seen Miria has this nack of bring the most out of people she can take a #47 and make that #47 fight like a #30 or better or so it seems just by bringing out the best of that person. That's just my view of her leadership skills and how she brings out qualities in people that they themselvs never knew they had.
Yup. Miria even brought out the pompoms cheering for Clare when they first met. Clare getting stronger was more profoundly shaped by Miria's intimate care and had less to do with Clare putting on Teresa's flesh, going over her limit and coming back, acquiring Irene's arm and technique, and nearly awakening to prepare lion chops.
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Old 2008-03-14, 21:13   Link #1166
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Yup. Miria even brought out the pompoms cheering for Clare when they first met. Clare getting stronger was more profoundly shaped by Miria's intimate care and had less to do with Clare putting on Teresa's flesh, going over her limit and coming back, acquiring Irene's arm and technique, and nearly awakening to prepare lion chops.
I think Miria already knew or had a hunch that Clare was as strong as she is she said in the slashers chapters"Its was as if the strongest stood before me",Miria may have been the one to bring this power out but I think its more likey they both pushed each other while training resulting in the 2 strong ones among the 7.
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Old 2008-03-14, 21:28   Link #1167
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And she did this because she had been guiding Clare's hand all along? Clare's run-ins with Ophelia, Riful, Rigald, each of these crises wherein Clare had gained something was all orchestrated by Miria how? Or not to be that extreme, what was Miria's contribution in each of these crises that "brought out" Clare's power? Well, I guess on that last one she purposely put herself in jeopardy at Rigald's hands intending to draw out Clare's potential. It's an interesting plan. I wonder if she calculated losing Jean on that one?

Also, you can't say that Miria believed that Clare was "as strong as she is" upon their first meeting while she was thinking to herself "the strongest is standing before me". Well, you could. And you did. But how do they not contradict each other?
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Old 2008-03-14, 21:51   Link #1168
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Miria smelled the Teresa on her . khryoleoz I agree though, I think Miria recognized strength in Clare a long time ago, but as for their training we have no idea if it involved a sweaty Miria in short shorts and a tank top with a whistle counting off the ghosts jumping jacks (oh please oh please) or if they were all doing their own thing. I imagine Clare actually did the most instruction because by her youki reading she would know the most about the techniques, especially for Helen. But again pure speculation. I am imagining Helen leading a yoga class, deneve teaching kick boxing, Miria leading aerobics, Clare crying because she can't use her arm, and Yuma baking cakes. I am imagining the training to done to the song Eric Prydz - Call on Me.

Clare and Miria have always been more potent than the other partially awakened Claymores and when she said Clare would not be bested by even the top few it seemed that was pretty much were Clare was before because she could hang neck and neck with Galatea for battle power. As she cannot use her old limit breaker technique then she really must change her fighting style to a more technical and probably physically weaker mode hoping the cloak gives her a surprise advantage.
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Last edited by chibamonster; 2008-03-14 at 22:15.
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Old 2008-03-14, 21:56   Link #1169
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Hmmm...I like that picture a lot. Okay, I'm sold.

Gotta have spandex hugging every nook and cranny of their frames.
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Old 2008-03-14, 22:06   Link #1170
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I never said she orchestrated anything just that I think she had a hunch that Clare was alot stronger than she seemed.

And I got the quote wrong she said"It felt as if the strongest was standing in front of me" so she definitely felt something.

Something else I noticed about Miria is she seems to favour Clare over the other claymores like asking Clare opinion about the war in north and when she decided to head south with her,with whats happened in the past and this chapter I think Clare could be the reluctant second in command of the ghosts.

Last edited by Newhope; 2008-03-14 at 22:22.
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Old 2008-03-14, 23:12   Link #1171
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Hmmm...I like that picture a lot. Okay, I'm sold.

Gotta have spandex hugging every nook and cranny of their frames.
Yes!
We need to start a petion started to get Yagi to release ES5 showing all this exhausting, sweaty, and intimate training! The public has a right to know, dang it!!!!!
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Old 2008-03-14, 23:23   Link #1172
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Miria's intimate care/training of Clare during those seven years...

STOP IT! My mind needs no more imagery!!
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Old 2008-03-15, 00:28   Link #1173
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I don't think Helen or Deneve mentioned it because no one asked. Miria had no idea what they were capable of. They were not embarrassed about their abilities and used them plenty. And as long as they did not mention that they had been over their limit it would not have been a problem. They did not know anything was wrong with being partially awakened until after the battle when Miria told them that was why they were all there. Then they knew to shut up and stop acting up.

I understand Miria's difficulty in the process of making quick decisions and it makes me like her more because it makes her a bit more vulnerable and human. It does not change the fact that she struggles with those situations. Where Clare runs in without thinking Miria freezes. Yuma, Deneve, Clare and Helen all beat her in not only making a decision but acting as well while she was still processing. Miria is the fastest claymore speed wise and that should not happen unless she is having a real issue. Rigardo attacking was a shock and definitely not miria's fault. But while she was processing, the other claymores were attacking and defending before she even moved. But when she does move, she moves very very quickly.

Irene and Galatea kept a cool head in equally bad or worse situations. Irene freaked out when she saw Teresa going at almost awakened Priscilla because she knew there was nothing she could do. Even if she ran in she would get killed in the cross fire. But before that she took opportunities to attack afforded her by her comrades which Miria has not done that we have seen. Instead we see Miria taking on the worst situations alone. That is not good for a leader whose real strength lies in being with a group.
Those are interesting points. I like to think that Miria is the stratagist while some of the others are good at tatics. Clare in particuler reactes well in a crisis( until she loses complete control but still she is rather effective)

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Originally Posted by azurie View Post
well as you have seen Miria has this nack of bring the most out of people she can take a #47 and make that #47 fight like a #30 or better or so it seems just by bringing out the best of that person. That's just my view of her leadership skills and how she brings out qualities in people that they themselvs never knew they had.
I have to strongly agree with this. I think these are qualities of a true leader
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Old 2008-03-15, 01:30   Link #1174
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Miria has devotion aura +5 armor, endurance aura +20% attack speed, command aura +30% damage and unholy aura +25% regeneration. That's why she's the best in group.
Warcraft III stats ftw! >_<

More exactly, we see characters comment from all sides of Miria's unusual leadership ability, so the manga leaves no doubt as to what it wants us to think. As far as I can see, Claymores are more...sensitive...warriors than the usual soldiery types -- being unstable prideful solitary warriors and all that -- so handling them probably requires more leadership and care than usual.

Her performance in the Slashers Arc was not particularly impressive, though one could forgive that fact due to the Awakened's surprise attack, the misinformation, the unstable powers of the teammates, and her own revelation about the nature of the mission and the Claymores involved which must've shaken her pretty badly.

At Pieta we saw her commanding a mixed force against overwhelming odds with surprising success -- until Simba, I mean Rigaldo, does his kill-the-captains-in-one-strike thing and completely screws them up. Before that even he comments that the Claymores are astonishingly efficient in that hopeless battle; the fact that they held together as a force as long as they did was a testament to her charisma in and of itself, since many of the Claymores never had experience fighting those odds and would've broken ranks at the very realization of the battle's nature under a less skilled leader. Leadership isn't something easily defined, drawn, narrated, or felt, so I can't support this much with a lot of tactics (the manga hasn't been particularly tactical anyway), but what distinguishes Miria from many other single digit heads seems to be her lack of overt pride, her sympathy, and her understanding of a Claymore's nature, not to mention her tenacity and will to survive (we can also infer that she has a pretty strategic mind). For some reason, this allows her to bring out the most out of her subordinates.

Mind you, I'm still angry about Flora's death in that Arc. Dammit, the most beautiful and most elegant Claymore ever, gone, in one shot, despite developments that pointed her out as a potentially very interesting character to fill out the Ghosts' ranks, her only remnant in the story being Clare's Windcutter. What the hell!?

Like others said though, Miria seems to have taken a particular liking to Clare even over others of the Fab Four. Then again Priscilla did observe at Pieta that there were two "lights" much stronger than the other ones. Not one over another, but two together: Miria and Clare.

Now I'm just waiting for eyeless God-Eye to join forces with the Phantom and her Ghosts in the upcoming chapter. They probably have a lot to share with each other too, since Galatea has also been sniffing around the organization like Miria did, and as Number 3 of a time when Number 1 and 2 are mindless weapons (i.e., not counting Raphaela's unique case, she was the top "normal" Claymore of her time), she seems to know a lot.

P.S. lol @ training imagery. Sweaty action in the caves hiding from the frozen fields, eh.
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Old 2008-03-15, 02:09   Link #1175
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Something else I noticed about Miria is she seems to favour Clare over the other claymores like asking Clare opinion about the war in north and when she decided to head south with her,with whats happened in the past and this chapter I think Clare could be the reluctant second in command of the ghosts.
I noticed that too. I think it goes along with what flore said about the strongest having to lead. I put Miria and Clare as about equal so it makes since that of all the people Miria would most conffer with Clare, as the next strongest, would be it. The confersation between Clare and Miria when Clare was telling them she was going to go south was also intersting. I definatly see Clare as a reluctant 2nd in command.
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Old 2008-03-15, 03:20   Link #1176
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It seems to me that while the other claymores may look up to Clare she is not one to take responsibility willingly. She shrugged off Flora's invitation to become a leader. While she may or may not have lost the sword style competition Flora was the second highest ranked claymore there meaning there were plenty of opportunities for her to lead. Clare did not want to. I still think Clare is the most lone wolf of any of the ghosts. She goes out and does her own thing even at Miria's disapproval. She was the same before when Jean followed her; it was not like she asked Jean to be her shadow.

After the time skip Clare went off by herself again and Denve assigned Yuma to go with her indicating that Clare would just as happily have gone alone. It was not the first time that she had searched the north. Clare also planned to go to the south by herself. She did not invite the others to come with her. Miria actually disbanded the ghosts at that moment saying she would go with Clare and the others invited themselves along by choice. Clare is with the group but I do not think they are unified by a common goal at the moment. Moving together is the best thing to do at this time but I do not think the ghosts will stay together forever, although I would like that. Clare has been too willing to leave to have solid loyalty to the group itself even if she does care for the other ghosts. Clare seems much better at producing loyal followers than she is at actually leading. Too bad for her she loses her followers and Miria actually is following Clare at the moment.

While Miria may be respected and trusted Clare obviously has her own agenda. Remember when they rescued the claymores from Riful? That was Miria's idea but instead of following Miria's order Clare did not scatter and stayed behind to chat with Riful for her own personal reasons. Clare is still a lose cannon. A powerful one who tries to do the right thing but seemed all to willing to put her life on the line, almost as if she has a death wish.

As for Miria's leadership it seems her strength in Pieta was planning, organizing and preparing so that she does not have to do much actual leading in battle. Once organized the different cells worked without her having to manage them. Miria could then just be another leader of a smaller group and focus on her target. I think her struggles with the responsibility she holds are quite touching, freezing up when things go really bad, crying when she realizes she only could save 7, terror when she sensed Rifuls strength, genuine concern when Clare says she will consider working with Riful and so on. I do not think Miria is a leader because she likes doing it. If anything we see plenty of her weaknesses and struggles from it. It seems that training the ghosts to fight as a unit is a simmilar concept to Pieta; Miria does not tell them what to do as they already know their roles and how to work together taking advantage of each other's strengths and covering for their weaknesses.
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Old 2008-03-15, 07:35   Link #1177
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Hmmm...I like that picture a lot. Okay, I'm sold.

Gotta have spandex hugging every nook and cranny of their frames.
more cameltoes...

BTW, who sews their outfits? Cynthia?
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Old 2008-03-15, 07:49   Link #1178
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But then again, the whole loose cannon clare thing may be a result of her being number #47 and not having enough respect to lead anyone. She fought well with jean, (after) jean #9 had pledged her life to clare, she only actively fought with miria #6 (after) it was noticed she was using the pre-emptive perception, to raise her game a notch. Flora #8 completely discarded her in her plans until (after) the whole arm and quicksword manipulation in battle. Clare also seemed shocked that flora considered her commander material with the responsibility to lead. Clare did *seem* to be leading the attack against agatha at the start, but then we see miria taking the first attack on the 'awakaned' form. This curiously left clare a spare wheel until the moment her new found speed was needed to attack the isolated agatha.
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Old 2008-03-15, 08:39   Link #1179
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Spoiler for wrapped for length ^^:
.
It's almost weird how well Clare and Miria fit together despite being so different. As I've alluded to before, these two fit just like Griffith and Guts did when they were still the White Hawks. I believe that Griffith was telling Casca how he always knew that Guts was a hot-head and eager to rush in so he made his battle plans with that already in mind. I see Miria doing the same, if not similar, with Clare whenever they go to fight together.

Miria also knows that one day, Clare will leave them - she has to. While I wouldn't say that Clare has no group loyalty; it was Miria herself who 'disbanded' them just to follow through with the revenge for Pieta and her original intent against the Org. All the Ghosts, except for Yuma, are united by the desire to avenge the fallen so that's the common goal they'll work for, even if some of them take different paths to do so. They are also united in that they are not just comrades but friends instead of just being thrown together as usual.

If I may, I see Miria as wanting to follow Clare, not into battle or anything, but just in general - being with her rather than following her. She has a quality that makes strong people gravitate to her, despite her being weak. Clare's not fully aware of this so she tries to push people away from her because of her own experiences that nearly everyone around her gets hurt in some way. Clare just needs to get it through her head that whatever happens - it's not always her fault. Life's just that way.
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Old 2008-03-15, 12:53   Link #1180
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It seems to me that while the other claymores may look up to Clare she is not one to take responsibility willingly. She shrugged off Flora's invitation to become a leader. While she may or may not have lost the sword style competition Flora was the second highest ranked claymore there meaning there were plenty of opportunities for her to lead. Clare did not want to. I still think Clare is the most lone wolf of any of the ghosts. She goes out and does her own thing even at Miria's disapproval. She was the same before when Jean followed her; it was not like she asked Jean to be her shadow.

After the time skip Clare went off by herself again and Denve assigned Yuma to go with her indicating that Clare would just as happily have gone alone. It was not the first time that she had searched the north. Clare also planned to go to the south by herself. She did not invite the others to come with her. Miria actually disbanded the ghosts at that moment saying she would go with Clare and the others invited themselves along by choice. Clare is with the group but I do not think they are unified by a common goal at the moment. Moving together is the best thing to do at this time but I do not think the ghosts will stay together forever, although I would like that. Clare has been too willing to leave to have solid loyalty to the group itself even if she does care for the other ghosts. Clare seems much better at producing loyal followers than she is at actually leading. Too bad for her she loses her followers and Miria actually is following Clare at the moment.

While Miria may be respected and trusted Clare obviously has her own agenda. Remember when they rescued the claymores from Riful? That was Miria's idea but instead of following Miria's order Clare did not scatter and stayed behind to chat with Riful for her own personal reasons. Clare is still a lose cannon. A powerful one who tries to do the right thing but seemed all to willing to put her life on the line, almost as if she has a death wish.

.
Clare just doesen't seem the leader type.

As for her being a lone wolf, it's quite understandable. All the people she was close to end up dieing First her famil, then Teresa, Jean, and Flora. I'm not adding Irene because we don't know if she is dead and even if she is Clare doesen't know. Also she lost Raki. She keeps looking for him even though her teamates insist that he is dead.

I believe you underestimate the bond betrween the ghosts. They have been through a lot together after all. I think Clare didn't invite them because like Miria said it had a worse succes chance then Pieta which had a 0% chance.

Also don't forget that talking to Riful did help the ghosts get a lot of information. They learned how strong Priscilla was (even though Clare was not suprised). It wasn't just for personal reasons.
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