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Old 2008-03-15, 08:28   Link #941
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I've got no objection to the part where they have at least a thin barrier - they must at least have a thin film to have had any anti-gas capability. Whether they are nearly as capable outside the clothed area is another question entirely.
The deflected blows were clearly outside the clothed areas. Picture it like a shield generator of any random sci-fi ship, if you will, just because the generator is located somewhere else doesn't mean that certain areas of the ship don't have protection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
How many times do we have to see those things get penetrated by windblast (even if I grant it is the bug itself it isn't all that much better), whips ... etc before we just conclude they just aren't very protective against those things?
Whips? As in S-rank Precia's device? And yes, the bugs aren't really encouraging (if I recall, there was a small riot of Rein being hit by those things at all when that scene aired) Heck, Shamal even said its impossible for Rein alone to defeat those bugs, so whether that says something about the bugs strength or Rein's weakness is subject of debate.

Wind blasts that make the clothing flap are done for effect. When hair and clothing moves, it simply gives more of an image that they are flying at high speeds.
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Old 2008-03-15, 08:39   Link #942
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The deflected blows were clearly outside the clothed areas. Picture it like a shield generator of any random sci-fi ship, if you will, just because the generator is located somewhere else doesn't mean that certain areas of the ship don't have protection.
It sure as heck looked as though those blades were moving really easily through the barrier. If not for the barrier, the blades would just have swiped nothing.

Quote:
Whips? As in S-rank Precia's device?
It wasn't a magical attack. It was a whipping. You can try and come up with rationalizations for individual incidents, but when they add up what is really happening should be clear.

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And yes, the bugs aren't really encouraging (if I recall, there was a small riot of Rein being hit by those things at all when that scene aired) Heck, Shamal even said its impossible for Rein alone to defeat those bugs, so whether that says something about the bugs strength or Rein's weakness is subject of debate.
I wasn't here then, but there was that riot. Anyway, the DVD makes this clear - she was cut ... by windblast ... apparently to the skin. Obviously, if she continued to advance, she'd be cut in far more places by bugs flying close.

Quote:
Wind blasts that make the clothing flap are done for effect. When hair and clothing moves, it simply gives more of an image that they are flying at high speeds.
That means that they are soft. Which means that even if I grant them an extremely high tensile strength so it won't break (and considering Precia and Rein maybe even this is generous), they won't be able to decelerate a bullet properly because they'll "give" too much, just like they give to the wind.

It is IIRC one of the reasons we don't use spider silk for bulletproofs - yes, they have good strength but they stretch far too much.
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Old 2008-03-15, 09:17   Link #943
Keroko
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It sure as heck looked as though those blades were moving really easily through the barrier. If not for the barrier, the blades would just have swiped nothing.
It looked as if those barriers were scratching over the barrier, and would have hit both mages faces if they had continued. heck, there were sparks arching over the contact, which shows pressure being aplied, which means the weapons would have gone further had the barriers not been in the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
It wasn't a magical attack. It was a whipping. You can try and come up with rationalizations for individual incidents, but when they add up what is really happening should be clear.
Does it need to be a magic attack? It's a magic weapon, which means its strength exceeds normal weapons. Signum certainly didn't need a 'magic attack' to break Fate's Defencer:



And note that this was a conciously activated Barrier, not an auto generated one.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I wasn't here then, but there was that riot. Anyway, the DVD makes this clear - she was cut ... by windblast ... apparently to the skin. Obviously, if she continued to advance, she'd be cut in far more places by bugs flying close.
By windblast? To the skin?



I'm clearly seeing a wing hit the jacket and no tear to the skin, though.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
That means that they are soft. Which means that even if I grant them an extremely high tensile strength so it won't break (and considering Precia and Rein maybe even this is generous), they won't be able to decelerate a bullet properly because they'll "give" too much, just like they give to the wind.

It is IIRC one of the reasons we don't use spider silk for bulletproofs - yes, they have good strength but they stretch far too much.
I never argued that Barrier Jackets are soft (the entire 'hardening on impact' sounded rather silly to me too) and I never said that it was the fabric that stopped or softened impacts. The Field and Barrier generated by the jacket do.
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Old 2008-03-15, 10:05   Link #944
tshouryuu
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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
We had pretty much this exact same debate before in the OC thread anyway I never bought any of that “invisible shield outside of jacket” nonsense then and still don’t. As said I’ve seen this augment before and it’s nonsensical IMO. Not least of all since canon itself in booklets and such talks about how the amount of material matters and sonic form is hyped repeatedly as being extremely dangerous due to weak coverage and probably thin layers. This ONLY make’s sense if the jacket itself is the primary defensive competent.
I have to disagree. There is canonical evidence of "invisible shield outside barrier". Please take note that in StrikerS Ep12, 15:07-15:11, Sein specifically asked Lutecia to turn off her field and barrier. If you look further, there was no visible change in her barrier jacket at all which would suggest that there are invisible fields and barriers surrounding her.
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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Also say you got someone to just look at Nanoha having no preconceptions do you think they would look at it and the jackets and go. “Hmm you know despite them being called jackets and armor and stuff having different modes I bet that the material is acutally totally irrelevant and instead it’s acutally invisible force fields protecting them from harm”. That really is basiclly your argument in a nutshell and it’s rather stupid IMO.
See the above for evidence of invisible force fields.
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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Barrier jackets have never really shown resilience to bladed or kinetic weapons mages ability to mess with gravity seems to allow them to sustain more blunt impact force then you’d expect possibly by screwing with inertial and spreading impacts (which even modern soft armor can do), but that’s a different then deflecting bullets or knives.

It also neatly helps explain why guns are outlawed if the jackets provide marginal protection at best and almost none on uncovered areas then while one guy with a gun might not be much of a threat a platoon dug into hard cover
Nice explanation but incredibly idealistic imo. What's stopping criminals from using guns against mages? Have you considered this point? You won't abandon a type of weapon unless its proven to be ineffective against a common defense. Having BJs provide a defense against bullets would be a better explanation imo on why the ban is effective in the first place.
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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post

If it was thicker and hard it might well be, it would also probably weigh more mind and while knights where far more agile then many would think the armor did still impede movement somewhat.

That said let's face it Hayate at that time was not any kind of armorer or tactical genius when she thought this stuff up as you noted she thought up "knight like cloths" not armor, but basiclly glorified costumes. The Knights might have called them "armor" out of habit, but let's face it wasn't "armor" under sane definition.
Spoiler for Armor:


The fact that most of these people thought up jackets at the age of 9 or 10 is a bit of an issue they'd have not a clue what makes effective armor and given there exhibited tactical ineptitude in other areas even years later assuming they'd learn better and change is hardly a given either.
So here is the question, what is stopping the Knights (who have combat experience) from politely asking for something better? Something that provides more protection? In fact in A's ep6 12:30-12:58 Hayate, Signum and Shamal were talking about Knight armour. Hayate said that she won't have the knights fight for her asks if knight-like clothes is okay and Signum said yes and that she does not mind one bit. If the physical Knight armour itself was important, Signum at the very least would disagree with the clothes and ask for actual armour. Another thing, what's stopping Hayate from researching proper armour? She is in the library when this topic about knight armour was broached you know.

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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Acutally all evidence and logic says they probably are with perhaps some inertial dampening properties imparted via gravity manipulation.
The theory proposed was that Fields of a barrier jacket provide defenses by bleeding off exceed kinetic energy. How much energy was bled off is in proportion to how much kinetic energy behind the attack. So the faster the attack, the more protection is provided.
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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
First off we must note that a large number of these melee fighters "armor" was designed when:
A: They were 9 or 10
B: Had there "armor" designed by said 9 and 10 year olds.
I want to dispute this. First, Fate was trained as a fighter. Why would she get away with her BJ in S1 and S2 if it wasn't effective? Unless you're telling me that her trainer (Linis) is incompetent at teaching. Second, Hayate frequents a library and has her knights who have much experience in combat. Unless you're also telling me that she is unable to do research on armour and her knights are so stupid not to request actual armour when its needed, then I have nothing to say.
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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Yeah sure you could argue they should know better now, but momentum is a powerful thing and it's worked so far so what motive would they have to change?
Because its stupid and dangerous not to change unless its effective?
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Old 2008-03-15, 10:14   Link #945
Tk3997
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I'm not buying the 'because they're stupid' argument. Yes, it was stated that the amount of clothing defines the strength of the defense, but that can be explained differently, and far more logically:
More logically then "more clothing coverage and thickness = better protection?" This should be good for a laugh.

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The Barrier Jacket generate a Field and Barrier, this is a fact.
Yeah, but Field and barrier =/= body encasing energy sheild and the fact that the clothing defines protection is also a fact as are the tons of examples of people punching and kicking and clubbing each other without even a hint of this magic field.

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Now, if the Barrier Jacket is what generates this, then logically, when there is more jacket (as in, more fabric) then the defenses become stronger, as there is more source to generate said defences.
Note the automatic assumption that this field takes the form of the matter impeding energy shield you want and not some kind of dampening feild for magic or the like. Also note we've seen barrier applied to at least two different kinds of spells already so its ambiguous at best. In my theory the "barrier" is the magically reinforced jacket itself with a field that deadens magical attacks projected over it as well. Works well for magic attacks, dosen't do jack for most physical impacts depends on the jacket for defense.

Quote:
We have seen those 'invisible' defenses in action. The 'Fate through the building' part is not a good argument because of the screencut I'll admit, it could work either way. During A's, however, Signum and Fate scored glancing blows on eachother, and you clearly saw Barriers popping up. Now do note that neither was focussed on defending in that scene, both were launching attacks:

Sigh… I can’t believe your even TRYING to use this an example do you think we’re all BLIND or something.
Let’s see:
1- The fields are visible
2- They’re being projected into space ahead of the user not hugging the skin like some invisible armor suit.
3- Neither of them is acutally doing anything else spell related when the fields pop up (they're just swinging at each other)
4- Following the above they bear a strong resemblance to the earlier field spell (name escapes me) Signum used to deflect an attack IMO; though over a somewhat smaller area.
5- Also on that note we have probably dozens of examples of punches and kicks among other things impacting unhindered on the target at later times lending more weight to this being an active defensive spell not a passive aspect of the jackets.

At best this is an example of a little seen or unnamed defensive spell it’s not any indication of a body encasing invisible force field projected from barrier jackets IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan
There's nothing strange about the IV's being able to penetrate a barrier jacket, they're magitech weapons. I doubt their blades compare to Armed Devices, but if they can stealth I don't see what's odd about them having powered weapons.
When did a giant claw arm become a “magitech” 40k power weapon and not just chunk of pointy metal exactly? Do you have a SHRED of evidence to support that it was anything besides a sharp piece of metal? I’m guessing the answer is no and the “logic” behind this entire idea is “a barrier jacket couldn’t be defeated by a simple knife so this knife wasn’t normal.” Circular logic at it’s finest.
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Old 2008-03-15, 10:17   Link #946
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
It looked as if those barriers were scratching over the barrier, and would have hit both mages faces if they had continued. heck, there were sparks arching over the contact, which shows pressure being aplied, which means the weapons would have gone further had the barriers not been in the way.
Yes of course pressure is being applied, they are going through that barrier tangentially, like it is water! The blades are grazing the barrier, and moving very easily. Radially, can you see that movement and conclude it is going to stop the attack? not.

Quote:
Does it need to be a magic attack? It's a magic weapon, which means its strength exceeds normal weapons. Signum certainly didn't need a 'magic attack' to break Fate's Defencer:
Signum clearly accelerated greatly in that scene before coming down, drastically upping the force in your scene. After she managed to fly Testarossa into another building, she had to dump a cartridge - it is obviously when it was expended.

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By windblast? To the skin?

I've got screenshots too. Your captures were too late:
http://arkhangelsk.987mb.com/analysis/ss07depress.html

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I'm clearly seeing a wing hit the jacket and no tear to the skin, though.
Then why the heck is Rein grasping her side. If it is just a cut to fabric, she would hardly be clutching it while she escaped.

Quote:
I never argued that Barrier Jackets are soft (the entire 'hardening on impact' sounded rather silly to me too) and I never said that it was the fabric that stopped or softened impacts. The Field and Barrier generated by the jacket do.
Yes, and we saw how much resistance even the whole complex together brings . Not a lot.
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Old 2008-03-15, 10:35   Link #947
tshouryuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I've got screenshots too. Your captures were too late:
http://arkhangelsk.987mb.com/analysis/ss07depress.html



Then why the heck is Rein grasping her side. If it is just a cut to fabric, she would hardly be clutching it while she escaped.
First, there isn't blood. Second, the inner layer of Rein's BJ or knight armour is shown and not bare skin. Third, just because it didn't cut through doesn't mean it didn't hurt her. If for example someone hits you hard enough in the stomach but not enough to bruise, would you not clutch your stomach in pain?
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Old 2008-03-15, 10:35   Link #948
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
Nice explanation but incredibly idealistic imo. What's stopping criminals from using guns against mages? Have you considered this point? You won't abandon a type of weapon unless its proven to be ineffective against a common defense. Having BJs provide a defense against bullets would be a better explanation imo on why the ban is effective in the first place.
Even good old Scarlietti doesn't think of using guns or HV weapons.

For all we know, when criminals use guns against mages, the mages get clobbered and this is an unseen side of TSAB history. Also, for many decades, entire armies have fought each other without a good defense against guns.

Further, there are some real advantages to magic. At the very least, you won't have to risk a gun being found on your body. Even with a gun, after all, a criminal can hardly face down the entire government force. If they are going to send 10 guys to arrest say a murderer that uses magic, but 10000 on seeing a gun, a criminal will probably just think the gun isn't worth the trouble.

Quote:
So here is the question, what is stopping the Knights (who have combat experience) from politely asking for something better? Something that provides more protection? In fact in A's ep6 12:30-12:58 Hayate, Signum and Shamal were talking about Knight armour. Hayate said that she won't have the knights fight for her asks if knight-like clothes is okay and Signum said yes and that she does not mind one bit. If the physical Knight armour itself was important, Signum at the very least would disagree with the clothes and ask for actual armour. Another thing, what's stopping Hayate from researching proper armour? She is in the library when this topic about knight armour was broached you know.
Even without research, Hayate should have known that knight's armor is supposed to be hard.

Their master has already said that she isn't going to have them fight, and that's why she won't give them real armor. Under this condition, Wolkenritter, who are technically in a Master-Slave relationship, can hardly object.

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I want to dispute this. First, Fate was trained as a fighter. Why would she get away with her BJ in S1 and S2 if it wasn't effective? Unless you're telling me that her trainer (Linis) is incompetent at teaching.
When even the official government agency looks like what they do, competence might be much farther away than you are imagining. You will notice that she often gets hurt in that BJ.

For all we know, Precia might have designed that BJ. Fate will wear it because she loves her "mother". And since it is thin, it provides minimal protection from whips - perfect for Precia. If Fate had been wearing even something like Nanoha's relatively thick BJ, the whip won't cut quite as horribly.

While we are on Fate, you will notice that after she got hurt in A's, Bardiche redesigned the BJ. And what is one of the things he did? He added hard guards on the hands! Ahh, now reality starts to peer through - too bad he didn't go far enough

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Because its stupid and dangerous not to change unless its effective?
The list of things they should have changed far exceeds the choice of BJ.
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Old 2008-03-15, 10:40   Link #949
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
First, there isn't blood.
Anyway, not all wounds draw obvious amounts of blood. Do you really want to see poor Rein blow an artery and spill blood all over the scene? Is that scene not humiliating enough?

Quote:
Second, the inner layer of Rein's BJ or knight armour is shown and not bare skin.
Are you sure it isn't because it is considered "in shadow?" We can see the innards of the barrier jacket under Rein's armpit, and the shades are different.

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Third, just because it didn't cut through doesn't mean it didn't hurt her.
She got BRUISED by the windblast? Wow, the BJ sounds more and more protective all the time!
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Old 2008-03-15, 11:23   Link #950
tshouryuu
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Even good old Scarlietti doesn't think of using guns or HV weapons.
Doesn't think of using or doesn't have access to? Also he does seem to have a policy of not killing whenever possible. If he didn't mind killing, the 9/12 event would have a lot of deaths.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
For all we know, when criminals use guns against mages, the mages get clobbered and this is an unseen side of TSAB history. Also, for many decades, entire armies have fought each other without a good defense against guns.
If said mages get clobbered, why isn't there more criminals using guns? Also if the mages keep getting clobbered, how the heck did the TSAB survive up till now.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Further, there are some real advantages to magic. At the very least, you won't have to risk a gun being found on your body. Even with a gun, after all, a criminal can hardly face down the entire government force. If they are going to send 10 guys to arrest say a murderer that uses magic, but 10000 on seeing a gun, a criminal will probably just think the gun isn't worth the trouble.
10000 on a gun....That is pure exaggeration you know.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Even without research, Hayate should have known that knight's armor is supposed to be hard.

Their master has already said that she isn't going to have them fight, and that's why she won't give them real armor. Under this condition, Wolkenritter, who are technically in a Master-Slave relationship, can hardly object.
Since she isn't having them fight, then why did she not outright deny them their Knight armour in the first place? Since there's not need to fight, why bother even coming up with their present Knight armour at all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
When even the official government agency looks like what they do, competence might be much farther away than you are imagining. You will notice that she often gets hurt in that BJ.
What has the government agency has to do with Linis at all? What you're doing suggests to me that you are assuming everyone is incompetent
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
For all we know, Precia might have designed that BJ. Fate will wear it because she loves her "mother". And since it is thin, it provides minimal protection from whips - perfect for Precia. If Fate had been wearing even something like Nanoha's relatively thick BJ, the whip won't cut quite as horribly.
If that's the case why does Precia not tell Fate to disengage the barrier jacket in the first place? I would think its even easier to whip someone in normal clothes than in a barrier jacket in the first place.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Anyway, not all wounds draw obvious amounts of blood. Do you really want to see poor Rein blow an artery and spill blood all over the scene? Is that scene not humiliating enough?
What has humiliation got to do with anything? Vita and Nanoha both got stabbed and they bleed a lot. If she got cut, Rein spilling blood would be normal.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Are you sure it isn't because it is considered "in shadow?" We can see the innards of the barrier jacket under Rein's armpit, and the shades are different.
The shade although lighter, is still closer to the the inner jacket colour then actual flesh tones or even blood. And since that part of the barrier jacket you're talking about is under Rein's armpit, it would make sense if its in shadow and hence look darker.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
She got BRUISED by the windblast? Wow, the BJ sounds more and more protective all the time!
Ark, I never said the physical jacket itself provides the protection. I have said the field produced by the jacket provides the defense by bleeding off excess kinetic energy in proportion to the attack. I have also never said that you don't get bruises even if you're protected.

Also I did not say the windblast bruise her. From your third screenshot, the wing of the bug pass by that cut up jacket area. The wing of the bug might have bruised her at the point in time.

Edit: BTW, what exactly is wrong with my theory anyway? I'll restate it here "The field, produced by the barrier jacket, provides defences by bleeding off excess kinetic energy in proportion to that attack. The more kinetic energy behind the attack, the more energy is bled off and hence the mage gets less damaged" Please state the reason clearly if you don't mind. From what I have seen so far, you just disagree and not actually provided an actual reason.
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Old 2008-03-15, 12:17   Link #951
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Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
Edit: BTW, what exactly is wrong with my theory anyway? I'll restate it here "The field, produced by the barrier jacket, provides defences by bleeding off excess kinetic energy in proportion to that attack. The more kinetic energy behind the attack, the more energy is bled off and hence the mage gets less damaged" Please state the reason clearly if you don't mind. From what I have since so far, you just disagree and not actually provided an actual reason.
What observations does the theory explain that couldn't otherwise be explained without it?

At a glance, the theory also seems to be unfalsifiable. If a theory isn't testable it is meaningless.
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Old 2008-03-15, 12:33   Link #952
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
Doesn't think of using or doesn't have access to? Also he does seem to have a policy of not killing whenever possible. If he didn't mind killing, the 9/12 event would have a lot of deaths.
When even a big criminal like Scarlietti can't get any...

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If said mages get clobbered, why isn't there more criminals using guns? Also if the mages keep getting clobbered, how the heck did the TSAB survive up till now.
Because, presumably, the number of people who can get their hands on guns is low.

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10000 on a gun....That is pure exaggeration you know.
The point is that if getting guns draw enough attention, a criminal with other options will not using them. Ultimately, criminals survive by not calling too much attention onto themselves, not by killing cops left and right.

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Since she isn't having them fight, then why did she not outright deny them their Knight armour in the first place? Since there's not need to fight, why bother even coming up with their present Knight armour at all?
Because she's a nice person and wants to grant them some of their little fun?

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What has the government agency has to do with Linis at all? What you're doing suggests to me that you are assuming everyone is incompetent
I'm saying that the government agency implies that the society in general, has no context of tactics. This is the zeitgeist of Midchildran society. People trapped in their society (which includes Linis) , even if they are brilliant, "forward-thinking" and what not, can only be so different from the zeitgeist. For example, it is said that a person in the 16th century might be able to conceive a helicopter, but not a computer, because the concept of a computer is too different and requires too much that is not yet known.

For example, take Scarlietti. He's clearly different from most. At least he knows how to perform a radio intercept, which puts him heads and shoulders above the TSAB. But even he doesn't use, for example, HV ammunition. His cyborgs wind up using energy bombs that are ridiculously similar to magic anyway. That's a very visible example of how Zeitgeist limits all.

Which is why I don't blame the TSAB for poor tactics so much as I blame Hayate. Hayate came from Earth, Earth zeitgeist!

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If that's the case why does Precia not tell Fate to disengage the barrier jacket in the first place? I would think its even easier to whip someone in normal clothes than in a barrier jacket in the first place.
Doesn't this tell you that the barrier jacket is so unprotective she doesn't even tell Fate to strip, because it'll be of no difference? (Of course, I suppose that TV broadcast censorship limits have something to do with it, but SoD, SoD, SoD)

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What has humiliation got to do with anything? Vita and Nanoha both got stabbed and they bleed a lot. If she got cut, Rein spilling blood would be normal.
When did I say Rein was stabbed. Have you ever had an abrasion or paper cut? Does blood come out like a faucet?

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The shade although lighter, is still closer to the the inner jacket colour then actual flesh tones or even blood. And since that part of the barrier jacket you're talking about is under Rein's armpit, it would make sense if its in shadow and hence look darker.
Actually get a color picker and look at the HSV values.

Inner jacket under Armpit = H230-250, S60-70%, V=20% = Very Dark Blue
Torn area = H=230-240, S30-40%, V=30-35% = Grayish.

It clearly isn't the inner layer, all right.

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Ark, I never said the physical jacket itself provides the protection. I have said the field produced by the jacket provides the defense by bleeding off excess kinetic energy in proportion to the attack. I have also never said that you don't get bruises even if you're protected.

Also I did not say the windblast bruise her. From your third screenshot, the wing of the bug pass by that cut up jacket area. The wing of the bug might have bruised her at the point in time.
Let's see ... the windblast alone cut the outer layer even according to you. If the actual wing bumped her, what makes you think it won't have penetrated the inner layer if it wasn't penetrated already?

Face it, the bug's windblast penetrated the entire protective complex whatever you want its composition to be.

Quote:
Edit: BTW, what exactly is wrong with my theory anyway? I'll restate it here "The field, produced by the barrier jacket, provides defences by bleeding off excess kinetic energy in proportion to that attack. The more kinetic energy behind the attack, the more energy is bled off and hence the mage gets less damaged" Please state the reason clearly if you don't mind. From what I have since so far, you just disagree and not actually provided an actual reason.
Problem #1: You've got it backwards. You propose the theory, it is your job to at least put up something to back it is at least a candidate. We only come to kick it apart when you can do that. Currently, it is mere counter induction, based on your dream that they must have a defense against bullets.

Right now, you hadn't even explained how you expect that "excess kinetic energy" to be "bled off", which is one of the reasons why it is hard to kick it right now - there's nothing to kick (which is different from your theory being strong enough to be resistant to kicking). And don't say "magic" - that's just an unfalsifiable black box. Magic does not mean you don't need to propose at least some mechanism, how you want the magic to help you bleed the energy away. And how are you planning to bleed away the force and pressure.

Problem #2: Except in restricted cases, it is difficult to envisage a physical mechanisms where the total force, pressure and energy transferred to the victim is reduced when the initial input is higher. In those restrictive cases, it involves the destructive deformation forces and energies being transferred to the penetrator because the blocking shield is tougher. Since a BJ is soft and fluffy, this does not apply, and in any case any such defense will be highly situational.

Problem #3: Why do we even need such an convoluted theory?
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Old 2008-03-15, 12:52   Link #953
Keroko
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Yes of course pressure is being applied, they are going through that barrier tangentially, like it is water! The blades are grazing the barrier, and moving very easily. Radially, can you see that movement and conclude it is going to stop the attack? not.
Did the definition of through change in the last few hours? Last I recall, if something does not get past the surface, it hardly quallifies as going through. The sparks also mean that pressure is being applied, meaning that the attacks would were very much intended to hit. As for 'moving easilly' it is quite clear that this was a slow motion scene. The shift in speed between the three scenes making up the attack is impossible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Signum clearly accelerated greatly in that scene before coming down, drastically upping the force in your scene. After she managed to fly Testarossa into another building, she had to dump a cartridge - it is obviously when it was expended.
It would help if you watch the complete scene. The Cartridge discharged was for the following Shiden'Issen, not the initial attack that broke the Barrier. Cartridges are dumbed before the attack begins, not afterwards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I've got screenshots too. Your captures were too late:
http://arkhangelsk.987mb.com/analysis/ss07depress.html
Hmm, you're right, my timing was off. But that means a mere blast of wind tore her Jacket. Even if it was merely fabric, tearing it from just a small puff of wind is impossible. This means that either A: a timing error in the animation, or B: the bugs are a lot stronger then they apear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Even good old Scarlietti doesn't think of using guns or HV weapons.
Yes, why doesn't he? If guns are so effective against mages, why didn't he equip at least a few of his drones with guns? Acces is no problem, he has acces to dangerous Lost Logia, a few guns is no problem by comparison. The only sensible answer is that guns are of little use against mages, so it would be a waste of time and effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Even without research, Hayate should have known that knight's armor is supposed to be hard.

Their master has already said that she isn't going to have them fight, and that's why she won't give them real armor. Under this condition, Wolkenritter, who are technically in a Master-Slave relationship, can hardly object.
Again, why didn't they change them when they entered official service then? They were hardly in master-slave relation by then.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
When even the official government agency looks like what they do, competence might be much farther away than you are imagining. You will notice that she often gets hurt in that BJ.
Oh, now all of a sudden the 'they are stupid' excuse is a valid one?

She gets tossed through buildings twice in the second episode of A's and shakes it off, and while the first one can be defended, the second one definetely can't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
While we are on Fate, you will notice that after she got hurt in A's, Bardiche redesigned the BJ. And what is one of the things he did? He added hard guards on the hands! Ahh, now reality starts to peer through - too bad he didn't go far enough
Hmm, yes, she was still wearing a glorified bathing suit, no protection to the upper arms, upper legs still had gaping holes... the only thing that was added was one hard guard to her off-hand.

Suuuuure, that's really effective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The list of things they should have changed far exceeds the choice of BJ.
And yet, they only start to become problems when you view them with your logic.

Strange, no?

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The point is that if getting guns draw enough attention, a criminal with other options will not using them. Ultimately, criminals survive by not calling too much attention onto themselves, not by killing cops left and right.
Criminals in Nanoha seem to use Lost Logia on a general basis, which is far more extreme then guns. And yet, no criminal uses a gun, which is also far easier to get then a Lost Logia (just hop to earth, go to America and buy one). Obviously guns just aren't worth the small effort it takes to get them because they would be useless.

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
When did I say Rein was stabbed. Have you ever had an abrasion or paper cut? Does blood come out like a faucet?
Yes I had papercuts, multiple, and yes they do bleed. Not like a faucet, but blood does come out rather heavilly for such a small cut.

Stings too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually get a color picker and look at the HSV values.

Inner jacket under Armpit = H230-250, S60-70%, V=20% = Very Dark Blue
Torn area = H=230-240, S30-40%, V=30-35% = Grayish.

It clearly isn't the inner layer, all right.
Skin generally isn't dark blue either.
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Old 2008-03-15, 13:30   Link #954
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Did the definition of through change in the last few hours? Last I recall, if something does not get past the surface, it hardly quallifies as going through. The sparks also mean that pressure is being applied, meaning that the attacks would were very much intended to hit. As for 'moving easilly' it is quite clear that this was a slow motion scene. The shift in speed between the three scenes making up the attack is impossible.
The two of them take swipes at each other, and both narrowly missed, slicing into the defensive complex and going through it tangentially like it was water. It tells you that had they been a few cm closer, both shots will have penetrated the respective barriers and sliced each other in two, as proved by various other scenes where this barrier doesn't even bother to show up.

If you want a slow motion scene, fine - there isn't enough noise in that particular scene to forbid it at least, but then the real speed of the blade going tangentially through the complex goes up, suggesting the defensive complex was even less effective than depicted. Maybe you wanted a fast scene

Quote:
It would help if you watch the complete scene. The Cartridge discharged was for the following Shiden'Issen, not the initial attack that broke the Barrier. Cartridges are dumbed before the attack begins, not afterwards.
OK, OK, I'll go rewatch the darn scene ... OK, so the cartridge exploded afterwards, but it is clear that Signum was in accelerated motion propelled by magic.

You will also notice that the blocking was almost effective. Even though the quickly placed Defenser cracked under the high pressure of a hard, sharp object called Laevanteinn, the velocity was slowed enough it just hit relatively lightly. Can you imagine that jacket doing the same?

But Graf Eisen definitely discharged the cartridges after the Raketenhammer.

Quote:
Hmm, you're right, my timing was off. But that means a mere blast of wind tore her Jacket. Even if it was merely fabric, tearing it from just a small puff of wind is impossible. This means that either A: a timing error in the animation, or B: the bugs are a lot stronger then they apear.
Why do you think it is so sad. This is a piece of tissue paper!

There are real limits to how strong the windblast could be, since the bug is just using enough force to keep itself level. It is not in some 10000G ascent. There's probably a vortex involved, but anyway you cut it, it is a most pathetic scene.

Quote:
Yes, why doesn't he? If guns are so effective against mages, why didn't he equip at least a few of his drones with guns? Acces is no problem, he has acces to dangerous Lost Logia, a few guns is no problem by comparison. The only sensible answer is that guns are of little use against mages, so it would be a waste of time and effort.
Yet what we can see of their performance against physical weapons does not support that conclusion.

Quote:
Again, why didn't they change them when they entered official service then? They were hardly in master-slave relation by then.
Never get it wrong. Hayate is a very nice master, but it was always a Master-Slave relationship. You shouldn't always think of a Slave as someone that's constantly whipped. Some masters are very nice to their slaves, but never get it wrong. Slaves are slaves. The slave is much more conscious of this than the Master because he knows that at any moment, his master can choose to be a butthole.


Quote:
She gets tossed through buildings twice in the second episode of A's and shakes it off, and while the first one can be defended, the second one definetely can't.
Both involve a smoke cloud. It is perfectly possible to defend quickly, and Fate wasn't even thrown nearly as hard this time.

As for competence, see the answer to tsuushoryu. You'll notice "they are stupid" is not my main line. The main line is physical limitations of such thin and fluffy things as barrier jackets are shown to be. The "they are stupid" is just to knock off appeals to authority.

Quote:
Hmm, yes, she was still wearing a glorified bathing suit, no protection to the upper arms, upper legs still had gaping holes... the only thing that was added was one hard guard to her off-hand.

Suuuuure, that's really effective.
Why do you think I said that Bardiche didn't go far enough. But he did make progress that he won't have to make if hard objects are completely useless.

Quote:
Criminals in Nanoha seem to use Lost Logia on a general basis, which is far more extreme then guns. And yet, no criminal uses a gun, which is also far easier to get then a Lost Logia (just hop to earth, go to America and buy one). Obviously guns just aren't worth the small effort it takes to get them because they would be useless.
Alternatively, the Lost Logia has a shot of helping them achieve a strategic goal, while a gun can only help them shoot cops. One's worth the risk of waking up the whole TSAB much more than the other.

Oh, as for "my" logic, how about the logic of reality.

Quote:
Yes I had papercuts, multiple, and yes they do bleed. Not like a faucet, but blood does come out rather heavilly for such a small cut.

Stings too.
Strange, when I've papercutted myself, I had to squeeze the wound to force a drop out. But it certainly stings, like poor Rein. Anyway, it'll have to be a faucet to force it to appear.

Quote:
Skin generally isn't dark blue either.
It is not Dark Blue. It is gray. Obviously, it is shadow.
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Old 2008-03-15, 14:31   Link #955
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I'm saying that the government agency implies that the society in general, has no context of tactics. This is the zeitgeist of Midchildran society. People trapped in their society (which includes Linis) , even if they are brilliant, "forward-thinking" and what not, can only be so different from the zeitgeist. For example, it is said that a person in the 16th century might be able to conceive a helicopter, but not a computer, because the concept of a computer is too different and requires too much that is not yet known.

For example, take Scarlietti. He's clearly different from most. At least he knows how to perform a radio intercept, which puts him heads and shoulders above the TSAB. But even he doesn't use, for example, HV ammunition. His cyborgs wind up using energy bombs that are ridiculously similar to magic anyway. That's a very visible example of how Zeitgeist limits all.

Which is why I don't blame the TSAB for poor tactics so much as I blame Hayate. Hayate came from Earth, Earth zeitgeist!
In her defense though a nine year old girl isn’t going to have much interest or knowledge in military affairs unless she was VERY unusual. Hayate showed no real intrest in such things bordering on pacfist really. So all her actual military training occurs under the TSAB so really she’s just as poisoned by their culture as any other officer as she never had any useful experience on earth to draw off and say “you know this is sort of stupid…” when she joined there army. She might well now just assume this is how all armies work.

Quote:

Problem #1: You've got it backwards. You propose the theory, it is your job to at least put up something to back it is at least a candidate. We only come to kick it apart when you can do that. Currently, it is mere counter induction, based on your dream that they must have a defense against bullets.
Really they do have some defenses against bullets. Various sorts of active magic barriers clearly have the strength needed to defelct even heavy automatic gunfire, but barrier jacket sure as hell don't IMO.
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Old 2008-03-15, 14:45   Link #956
tshouryuu
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
What observations does the theory explain that couldn't otherwise be explained without it?

At a glance, the theory also seems to be unfalsifiable. If a theory isn't testable it is meaningless.
Then this thread is almost meaningless. What tech and magic in this thread is actually testable? Even the arguments about speed of magical shots and range isn't exactly testable. Could you name me a few things that actually can be tested?

Anyway, what the theory could explain is
  • How mages survive great impacts
  • Why is the ban of conventional weapons sucessful
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
When even a big criminal like Scarlietti can't get any...
That's only half of it. What about the fact Jail does seem to have a policy of not killing whenever possible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Because, presumably, the number of people who can get their hands on guns is low.
Why is it low then? If its effective against mages, then people will still use them despite the ban.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
The point is that if getting guns draw enough attention, a criminal with other options will not using them. Ultimately, criminals survive by not calling too much attention onto themselves, not by killing cops left and right.
What about non mage criminals? Are you suggesting there are none? What options do they have? Also guns can be concealed so that they do not gather attention.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Because she's a nice person and wants to grant them some of their little fun?
Then why not actual armour? Signum and Shamal did not really care what their Knight armour will be like. All they wanted was for Hayate is to grant them their knight armour which suggest the physical material/outlook isn't important.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I'm saying that the government agency implies that the society in general, has no context of tactics. This is the zeitgeist of Midchildran society. People trapped in their society (which includes Linis) , even if they are brilliant, "forward-thinking" and what not, can only be so different from the zeitgeist. For example, it is said that a person in the 16th century might be able to conceive a helicopter, but not a computer, because the concept of a computer is too different and requires too much that is not yet known.

For example, take Scarlietti. He's clearly different from most. At least he knows how to perform a radio intercept, which puts him heads and shoulders above the TSAB. But even he doesn't use, for example, HV ammunition. His cyborgs wind up using energy bombs that are ridiculously similar to magic anyway. That's a very visible example of how Zeitgeist limits all.

Which is why I don't blame the TSAB for poor tactics so much as I blame Hayate. Hayate came from Earth, Earth zeitgeist!
You're making sweeping statements. And the example you provided is about technology not mindset. Also, if that's the case, the TSAB may not have survive the aftermath of the war which led to the banning of conventional weapons. At that point in time, there is sure to be conventional weapons left around. If physical weapons are effective against mages, then conventional weapons itself would survive to present day strikers.

As for Jail not using HV ammo, is it because of Zeitgeist limiting him or could it be that HV ammo simply not effective in the first place?

Also blaming Hayate is extremely unfair to her. She may have lived on Earth but the TSAB trains her.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Doesn't this tell you that the barrier jacket is so unprotective she doesn't even tell Fate to strip, because it'll be of no difference? (Of course, I suppose that TV broadcast censorship limits have something to do with it, but SoD, SoD, SoD)
No it doesn't. the fields and barriers of the jacket may be down for all we know. If those are down then the physical component of the BJ won't protect Fate at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post

When did I say Rein was stabbed. Have you ever had an abrasion or paper cut? Does blood come out like a faucet?
I never said you said Rein got stabbed. I mentioned that 2 character got stabbed and they bled. I specifically said that Rein got cut. Also the size of that damaged part of the BJ is large, about 20% the thickness of her wrist and its along almost the entire length of her side if I'm not mistaken. If she really got cut like that, she would be bleeding like a faucet if not worst.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually get a color picker and look at the HSV values.

Inner jacket under Armpit = H230-250, S60-70%, V=20% = Very Dark Blue
Torn area = H=230-240, S30-40%, V=30-35% = Grayish.

It clearly isn't the inner layer, all right.
It also neither blood nor skin tone. I said its still closer to the the inner jacket colour then actual flesh tones or even blood. If it wasn't the inner jacket then what is that grey patch?
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Let's see ... the windblast alone cut the outer layer even according to you. If the actual wing bumped her, what makes you think it won't have penetrated the inner layer if it wasn't penetrated already?

Face it, the bug's windblast penetrated the entire protective complex whatever you want its composition to be.
Because Rein did not bleed nor was there any flesh exposed. Also I said bruise (blunt force) and not cut (cutting force)
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post

Problem #1: You've got it backwards. You propose the theory, it is your job to at least put up something to back it is at least a candidate. We only come to kick it apart when you can do that. Currently, it is mere counter induction, based on your dream that they must have a defense against bullets.
How is it counter induction? If it is, what is the induction then. Also let me retract my statement. I hypothesize that the field does what I stated due to observations that mages can survive being slammed through concrete without significant injuries but yet can get injured on "slower" attacks such as sword strikes. Also NEVER did I say they must have a defense against bullets. I said BJs due to defense against kinetic impacts protect the mage. As bullets have a great deal of kinetic energy behind them, the BJs would be effective against bullets. Its have not MUST have. Please stop putting words in my mouth.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Right now, you hadn't even explained how you expect that "excess kinetic energy" to be "bled off", which is one of the reasons why it is hard to kick it right now - there's nothing to kick (which is different from your theory being strong enough to be resistant to kicking). And don't say "magic" - that's just an unfalsifiable black box. Magic does not mean you don't need to propose at least some mechanism, how you want the magic to help you bleed the energy away. And how are you planning to bleed away the force and pressure.
It would be similar to how heat is dissipated from hot objects. Its a hypothesis based on what I observed....
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Problem #2: Except in restricted cases, it is difficult to envisage a physical mechanisms where the total force, pressure and energy transferred to the victim is reduced when the initial input is higher. In those restrictive cases, it involves the destructive deformation forces and energies being transferred to the penetrator because the blocking shield is tougher. Since a BJ is soft and fluffy, this does not apply, and in any case any such defense will be highly situational.
I'm talking about Fields of the barrier jackets. Not the physical, visible components of barrier jackets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Problem #3: Why do we even need such an convoluted theory?
Then how would you explain how Fate survive getting slammed through multiply layers of concrete with her barrier jacket completely undamaged but can get cut by Signum?
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Old 2008-03-15, 21:41   Link #957
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
In her defense though a nine year old girl isn’t going to have much interest or knowledge in military affairs unless she was VERY unusual. Hayate showed no real intrest in such things bordering on pacfist really. So all her actual military training occurs under the TSAB so really she’s just as poisoned by their culture as any other officer as she never had any useful experience on earth to draw off and say “you know this is sort of stupid…” when she joined there army. She might well now just assume this is how all armies work.
Partial, but not a total excuse. She spends a lot of time on Earth until she's 15, so she still has that link to Terran culture and zeitgeist until at least then.

Quite frankly, if I'm an paramilitary officer, I'll be very interested in what other nations' militaries and police think about military and police matters. The Americans study Soviet military thought, and in fact incorporated some ideas when they scribbled up AirLand battle. The Soviets analyzed the West and still do as they attempt to solve the problem of professionalizing in a way acceptable to their very different military culture. And the idea of us being primitive societies thus unworthy of study doesn't work - we are still studying Sun Tzu ourselves. And so on.

Quote:
Really they do have some defenses against bullets. Various sorts of active magic barriers clearly have the strength needed to defelct even heavy automatic gunfire, but barrier jacket sure as hell don't IMO.
My sentiments exactly, which is why tsuushoryu's theory is even less necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
Then this thread is almost meaningless. What tech and magic in this thread is actually testable? Even the arguments about speed of magical shots and range isn't exactly testable. Could you name me a few things that actually can be tested?
What he means is that there is a "failure condition", so to speak, for your theory. For example, if I say that the maximum speed of a beam is 16m/s. You can disprove this by using a clear beam example (not a random bunch of flashies) and measuring out a higher speed, for example SS12 is good. That's the failure condition. He's saying your theory has none.

Quote:
Anyway, what the theory could explain is [LIST][*]How mages survive great impacts
Active defenses, inertial dampening if you like Tk3997. And it hardly leads to the most asinine conclusion that energy transferred to a mage goes down as energy input goes up.

Quote:
[*]Why is the ban of conventional weapons sucessful
What about intense indoctrination and an intense effort to stamp out any use? Further, even if I agree that BJs stop bullets despite the list of evidence to the contrary, it hardly leads to the most asinine conclusion that energy transferred to a mage goes down as energy input goes up.

Quote:
That's only half of it. What about the fact Jail does seem to have a policy of not killing whenever possible?
He was willing to vape the helo and recover only Vivio who is supposed to survive this. If Dieci had HV, she'd have busted the helo before Nanoha could have rushed back to shield it.

Quote:
Why is it low then? If its effective against mages, then people will still use them despite the ban.
Would they? Even if they don't really understand the advantages, except that the TSAB

And again, criminals survive by keeping a low profile. By the time they get into a gunfight with the police they've lost 3/4ths of the battle. Even if they did have to use violence against law-enforcement, smart thinking says to do it in a way that will not provoke the police into providing too many reinforcements. That's a criminal's way of survival outside a prison, not shooting cops left and right with your sleazy new Desert Eagle.

Quote:
What about non mage criminals? Are you suggesting there are none? What options do they have? Also guns can be concealed so that they do not gather attention.
If you are a non-mage criminal, you'll just have to rely on stealth. It is now much more difficult for you to get into gunland (Earth) - you can't get there with personal transport and there's no public transport to Earth.

You might conceal a gun. Then comes the day you use it. Even with a silencer (which reduces the velocity of the bullets and thus its big advantage) guns are noisy with a distinct acoustic signature. The survivors of your ambush run back and report a mass weapon, the TSAB comes on you like a frantic set of bricks. When they get you, assuming you are alive, they charge you for violating State Security and give you a penalty ten times of what you might otherwise have taken. You can bet no prosecutor (from Fate's case, we learn that there is no such thing as a lawyer in TSAB, Chrono, technically her prosecutor, tells her how to answer instead of a lawyer!) will give you any mercy or push for anything but the Ultimate Penalty. Still interested?

Quote:
Then why not actual armour? Signum and Shamal did not really care what their Knight armour will be like. All they wanted was for Hayate is to grant them their knight armour which suggest the physical material/outlook isn't important.
Because she doesn't really counternance them using violence?

Quote:
You're making sweeping statements. And the example you provided is about technology not mindset. Also, if that's the case, the TSAB may not have survive the aftermath of the war which led to the banning of conventional weapons. At that point in time, there is sure to be conventional weapons left around. If physical weapons are effective against mages, then conventional weapons itself would survive to present day strikers.
Mindset affects the technology (which is but an application of known physical laws) that a society can produce. If you don't understand the value of high velocity, you won't work to create high velocity ammunition.

At the end of the war, They are obviously in a state of shock, so 99.99% of them are anti-gun. The 0.0001% that still like guns are crushed by sheer weight of numbers.

Quote:
As for Jail not using HV ammo, is it because of Zeitgeist limiting him or could it be that HV ammo simply not effective in the first place?
Physics say it is much more likely to be 1 than 2.

Quote:
Also blaming Hayate is extremely unfair to her. She may have lived on Earth but the TSAB trains her.
She spends plenty of time on Earth and has plenty of access to Terran material and culture. If I were Hayate, the first question I'll ask is why is TSAB officer training only 3 months long while training on Earth goes on for at least a year?

Quote:
No it doesn't. the fields and barriers of the jacket may be down for all we know. If those are down then the physical component of the BJ won't protect Fate at all.
Why are they down. Does Fate have no survival instinct? Are you saying that they were battered down?

Quote:
I never said you said Rein got stabbed. I mentioned that 2 character got stabbed and they bled. I specifically said that Rein got cut. Also the size of that damaged part of the BJ is large, about 20% the thickness of her wrist and its along almost the entire length of her side if I'm not mistaken. If she really got cut like that, she would be bleeding like a faucet if not worst.
Maybe blood is indeed seeping inside her, but as long as it is inside, we don't see it. Also, the width of the cut matters, not just its length. The wind hit the barrier jacket, went through and nicked her. What's so hard to understand?

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It also neither blood nor skin tone. I said its still closer to the the inner jacket colour then actual flesh tones or even blood. If it wasn't the inner jacket then what is that grey patch?
Possibly the inside of the outer layer of the barrier jacket.

Quote:
How is it counter induction? If it is, what is the induction then.
Never mind. You are finally doing it.

Induction goes like this: There are many examples where BJs are almost useless against impactors. Thus, I can conclude that they won't be stopping bullets.

Counter induction goes like this: Despite the fact that only under extremely restricted conditions can a higher KE input realistically result in less transfer to the victim, I insist that this is what happens.

Quote:
Also let me retract my statement. I hypothesize that the field does what I stated due to observations that mages can survive being slammed through concrete without significant injuries but yet can get injured on "slower" attacks such as sword strikes.
1) Active defenses increasing available deceleration time to survivable levels.
2) Inertial dampening.
3) Even an anti-magic coating on the strikes allowing better penetration, while hardly my first choice due to increased complexity, is nothing compared to the problems of a theory in whcih higher KE and force inputs consistently result in less force and KE transmitted to the mage.

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Also NEVER did I say they must have a defense against bullets.
Then what is that stuff above.

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It would be similar to how heat is dissipated from hot objects. Its a hypothesis based on what I observed....
Tell me, how often is it that higher thermal inputs will result in less energy being input into a victim, all else being equal.

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I'm talking about Fields of the barrier jackets. Not the physical, visible components of barrier jackets.
I always discuss the entire defensive complex.

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Then how would you explain how Fate survive getting slammed through multiply layers of concrete with her barrier jacket completely undamaged but can get cut by Signum?
See answers to Keroko. Alternatively, you might prefer Tk3997's inertial dampening theory. Either way, it does not follow that higher KE inputs equal lower energy transferred to mage!
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Old 2008-03-15, 23:57   Link #958
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Partial, but not a total excuse. She spends a lot of time on Earth until she's 15, so she still has that link to Terran culture and zeitgeist until at least then.

Quite frankly, if I'm an paramilitary officer, I'll be very interested in what other nations' militaries and police think about military and police matters. The Americans study Soviet military thought, and in fact incorporated some ideas when they scribbled up AirLand battle. The Soviets analyzed the West and still do as they attempt to solve the problem of professionalizing in a way acceptable to their very different military culture. And the idea of us being primitive societies thus unworthy of study doesn't work - we are still studying Sun Tzu ourselves. And so on.
I just want to adress this while posting on the run: Your point above indicates an expectation of a level of professionalism and competance at odds with your position of the TSAB being insular idiots.

Besides, remember that at their core the TSAB, sadly, are essentially magical riot cops and SWAT. It's very likey there is a school of thought that goes "Why bother study this military crap, it has no relevance to anything we do!"

I am aware that is a stupid paradigm, but it does jive with the whole "TSAB are idiots" school of thought which ark and TK subscribe to. Y'all don't know how many times I have been told by companies that Leadership Skills training is irrelevant and has nothing to do at all with their companies. *sighs*

Also, consider that she may well consider, "Eh, I'm in the TSAB, what does this have to do with me? I won't bother." There's precedent for this: Hayate has been shown in the manga refusing to work on taking care of herself in a close-range fight because as she puts it, she's artillery, why does she need to worry about close range? (Paraphrased. Nevermind that in real armies arty gun crews DO train for when the OMGWTF threat suddenly appears. Mulcahy v Ministry of Defence, British Army gun crew in Gulf War 1 blasted a T-72 at point-blank range (for arty, anyway.))

Also, considering that the manga implies that her life in teh TSAB was really hectic, she may well have decided that Earth = Home = Don't Think About Work. And realistically... if she's going to school, regularly running missions, and juggling homework, it'd be hard to look up and research all these things. I can do it because I spent a year plus skipping classes and reading up on stuff. Ironically now that I'm taking a break from college and working, I don't have much time to read up on these things either.

Hayate's failings as a commanding officer are partly her, and also partly because of the institution which trained her. And since it's mentioned that she apprenticed under Genya, he shares some of the blame as well.

One more thing to consider: The US viewed the Soviets as their main threat when they wrote up AirLand Battle (which was later scrubbed for Network-Centric Warfare), and Gen. Petraus lead the school of thought that counterinsurgency is a main threat, forming the impetuous behind FM-23, the US Army counterinsurgency field manual. In both cases, there is a visible threat which US planners planned against.

We have no indications of the TSAB facing an outward threat that would require the sort of planning, wargaming and study that lead to AirLand Battle and FM-23. To be fair, it's possible that the TSAB may have done this, concluded that their main focus should be on constabulary and stabilisation operations, and thus they're geared to that, much as how the US Army has concluded that COIN ops should now be a focus of the Army, resulting in Army-wide dessimation of FM-23.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-03-16 at 01:29.
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Old 2008-03-16, 00:28   Link #959
Jimmy C
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
from Fate's case, we learn that there is no such thing as a lawyer in TSAB, Chrono, technically her prosecutor, tells her how to answer instead of a lawyer!)
Unless the translation is off again, that's incorrect. Chrono never said he was the prosecutor in her case. In A's ep1, he even states he's a witness along with Yuuno.
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Old 2008-03-16, 01:09   Link #960
arkhangelsk
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OK, maybe he isn't the prosecutor. Nevertheless, he and Yunno are the guys who give Fate her lines. Where is her lawyer?
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