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Old 2008-03-16, 01:11   Link #961
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
OK, maybe he isn't the prosecutor. Nevertheless, he and Yunno are the guys who give Fate her lines. Where is her lawyer?
What's the matter ark? Feeling left out of the job? Maybe the TSAB don't need them. *Evil Cackle.*
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Old 2008-03-16, 01:12   Link #962
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
OK, maybe he isn't the prosecutor. Nevertheless, he and Yunno are the guys who give Fate her lines. Where is her lawyer?
Mackenzie Friend. Legal principle where you can have someone assist you in the trial, despite them not being a qualified lawyer. Chrono is apparently acting as this.

Also, they say that the trial is taking place at TSAB HQ. That'd be where her public defender would show up. Most Navy ships don't deploy with a JAG, y'know; they gotta wait till they get back to base to get the JAG officers to show up.
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Old 2008-03-16, 02:11   Link #963
tshouryuu
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
What he means is that there is a "failure condition", so to speak, for your theory. For example, if I say that the maximum speed of a beam is 16m/s. You can disprove this by using a clear beam example (not a random bunch of flashies) and measuring out a higher speed, for example SS12 is good. That's the failure condition. He's saying your theory has none.
Right now I only have a hypothesis. When I have an actual equation for calculating it, I'll let you know.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Active defenses, inertial dampening if you like Tk3997. And it hardly leads to the most asinine conclusion that energy transferred to a mage goes down as energy input goes up.
Ark, don't be rude. Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean its asinine. Also inertial damping is fantasy science and not back by any hard science as well. Besides how does inertial damping even work against impacts? As far as I know, it only prevent people from feeling the effects of sudden acceleration and deceleration not protect against actual impacts. Also there is not a single piece of evidence, I believe, of any active defenses shown protecting their backs when mages actually get slammed into buildings.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
What about intense indoctrination and an intense effort to stamp out any use? Further, even if I agree that BJs stop bullets despite the list of evidence to the contrary, it hardly leads to the most asinine conclusion that energy transferred to a mage goes down as energy input goes up.
Intense indoctrination will only work to a certain point. Also I said kinetic energy is bled off to the atmosphere and never did I say the energy is transferred to the mage. The bullets thing is just a side thing. The main point I'm suggesting is that the field of the Barrier jackets dissipate kinetic energy.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post

He was willing to vape the helo and recover only Vivio who is supposed to survive this. If Dieci had HV, she'd have busted the helo before Nanoha could have rushed back to shield it.
The thing is Quattro told Deici to fire not Jail. Jail only said cannon fire wouldn't kill Vivio if she really is the vessel of the saint. Jail did not tell Deici to shoot.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Would they? Even if they don't really understand the advantages, except that the TSAB
What are you trying to say here?
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
And again, criminals survive by keeping a low profile. By the time they get into a gunfight with the police they've lost 3/4ths of the battle. Even if they did have to use violence against law-enforcement, smart thinking says to do it in a way that will not provoke the police into providing too many reinforcements. That's a criminal's way of survival outside a prison, not shooting cops left and right with your sleazy new Desert Eagle.
Maybe true but they would still have a chance of escaping. If the gun is effective against mages then shooting is an option.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post


If you are a non-mage criminal, you'll just have to rely on stealth. It is now much more difficult for you to get into gunland (Earth) - you can't get there with personal transport and there's no public transport to Earth.

You might conceal a gun. Then comes the day you use it. Even with a silencer (which reduces the velocity of the bullets and thus its big advantage) guns are noisy with a distinct acoustic signature. The survivors of your ambush run back and report a mass weapon, the TSAB comes on you like a frantic set of bricks. When they get you, assuming you are alive, they charge you for violating State Security and give you a penalty ten times of what you might otherwise have taken. You can bet no prosecutor (from Fate's case, we learn that there is no such thing as a lawyer in TSAB, Chrono, technically her prosecutor, tells her how to answer instead of a lawyer!) will give you any mercy or push for anything but the Ultimate Penalty. Still interested?
Jail uses missiles on his type 2 drones. He threaten the whole of Midchilda, engaged in illegal research, attacked Ground HQ etc... and what did he get? He got imprisoned. Precia caused a dimensional incident due to her illegal experiments and she only got exiled. Now you're telling me a criminal with a gun will get even worse then that? Sorry, but that is not believable.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Because she doesn't really counternance them using violence?
This doesn't stop her knights from actually requesting for actual armour. Hayate can always refuse.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Mindset affects the technology (which is but an application of known physical laws) that a society can produce. If you don't understand the value of high velocity, you won't work to create high velocity ammunition.

At the end of the war, They are obviously in a state of shock, so 99.99% of them are anti-gun. The 0.0001% that still like guns are crushed by sheer weight of numbers.
This is way too idealistic. Is there even a real life equivalent to what you said?
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Physics say it is much more likely to be 1 than 2.
That is your opinion only. You do not have hard facts to back it up as well.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
She spends plenty of time on Earth and has plenty of access to Terran material and culture. If I were Hayate, the first question I'll ask is why is TSAB officer training only 3 months long while training on Earth goes on for at least a year?
Different places train their troops differently is all I will say.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Why are they down. Does Fate have no survival instinct? Are you saying that they were battered down?
Because she loves her "mother" and will do anything she says.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Maybe blood is indeed seeping inside her, but as long as it is inside, we don't see it. Also, the width of the cut matters, not just its length. The wind hit the barrier jacket, went through and nicked her. What's so hard to understand?
Is not hard at all. the 20% thing i mention is the width of the size of the cut on her BJ. I never disagree that the BJ is cut. I disagree that Rein got cut and bleeding.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Possibly the inside of the outer layer of the barrier jacket.
Not the inner layer itself?
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Never mind. You are finally doing it.

Induction goes like this: There are many examples where BJs are almost useless against impactors. Thus, I can conclude that they won't be stopping bullets.
Evidence?
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Counter induction goes like this: Despite the fact that only under extremely restricted conditions can a higher KE input realistically result in less transfer to the victim, I insist that this is what happens.
How is it restricted?
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
1) Active defenses increasing available deceleration time to survivable levels.
Again lack of evidence as mention somewhere above.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
2) Inertial dampening.
Fantasy science as well.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
3) Even an anti-magic coating on the strikes allowing better penetration, while hardly my first choice due to increased complexity, is nothing compared to the problems of a theory in whcih higher KE and force inputs consistently result in less force and KE transmitted to the mage.
If there was antimagic coating, then Signum's flame wouldn't surround her blade.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Then what is that stuff above.
Have = suggesting, must have is insisting. I never insisted. I only suggested.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Tell me, how often is it that higher thermal inputs will result in less energy being input into a victim, all else being equal.
Clarify for me what you're asking me here.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I always discuss the entire defensive complex.
You're talking only about the visible physical portion. I'm talking about the invisible fields.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
See answers to Keroko. Alternatively, you might prefer Tk3997's inertial dampening theory. Either way, it does not follow that higher KE inputs equal lower energy transferred to mage!
Your response to Keroko are not exactly relevant to what we are discussing. I already pointed out what I think about TK's theory, its fantasy science as well, not the hard science you're so fond of.
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Old 2008-03-16, 03:54   Link #964
Kikaifan
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Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
When did a giant claw arm become a “magitech” 40k power weapon and not just chunk of pointy metal exactly? Do you have a SHRED of evidence to support that it was anything besides a sharp piece of metal? I’m guessing the answer is no and the “logic” behind this entire idea is “a barrier jacket couldn’t be defeated by a simple knife so this knife wasn’t normal.” Circular logic at it’s finest.
I don't really mind you not reading previous posts before responding, but if you're going to insult me you should do your due diligence.

In the Fate building-slam scene her barrier displaces the concrete in such a way that harm to her is averted. If her defenses can displace hundreds of kilos of concrete hitting her at fair speeds to protect her, they should be able to displace a simple knife. From there, the logic you offered takes over- it must not be a simple knife.

The idea shouldn't be very hard to accept when all the other drones have magic-based weapons and magic-enhanced 'sharp pieces of metal' are used by several characters.


Annnd expansion by editing:

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Your diagram actually shows with fair accuracy roughly how they would have been moving had your theory been true. Your lines are actually the consequence of your theory.
Yes, they are. And it doesn't require them to run into each other's beams on purpose.

And BTW it's not like mages making crazy zigzags is something we've never seen in Nanoha.



BTW they make like 5 contacts in under 2 seconds, more evidence than when the animators aren't doing closeups the combat actually progresses quickly (or that mages can fight quickly when they want to, as you like, though then you'd have to invent some really preposterous bullshit to explain why they take it so easy the rest of the time). And since the characters actually come onscreen during the same 'shot' I don't really think you can call that 'random emissions.'


Okay guys, what's all this crap about Scaglietti not using guns because he can't even imagine them? He uses missiles. He's obsessed with Old Belkan tech, and the Ancient Belkans didn't have the ban. The part about him not wanting to kill people I can accept (though he uses the missiles anyway), but it should certainly be within his mental capabilities to conceive of and engineer a firearm. Could it be that- gasp- firearms were considered antiquated and useless against magitech during the Belkan era?

Actually, the fact that the Knights were considered dangerous- or anything other than idiots, really- back in the day says more for the effectiveness of barrier jackets against modern weapons than anything else. Though I guess since you guys are stuck on this 'barrier jacket appearance matters' thing you're going to say they probably were all in plate or something and that makes the difference.
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Old 2008-03-16, 04:40   Link #965
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
Right now I only have a hypothesis. When I have an actual equation for calculating it, I'll let you know.
Ark, don't be rude. Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean its asinine. Also inertial damping is fantasy science and not back by any hard science as well. Besides how does inertial damping even work against impacts? As far as I know, it only prevent people from feeling the effects of sudden acceleration and deceleration not protect against actual impacts. Also there is not a single piece of evidence, I believe, of any active defenses shown protecting their backs when mages actually get slammed into buildings.
1) And something that results in reduced total quantity of force and pressure with increasing input isn't an act of pure ludicrious fantasy?
2a) It is Tk3997's theory, not mine. You can ask him for those details. Frankly, I don't like using inertial dampeners as a first choice myself due to fantasy factor, though as I said it is a unique weakness to his theory.
2b) Nevertheless, when you impact the ground, you decelerate. If you can somehow prevent that, then you can survive.
3) There's even less evidence of defenses that are vulnerable only to low speed attacks. All we are sure is that the mage somehow survived through a cloud of smoke, in which any of our three theories could have happened. I like my theory because it requires the least new fantasy elements. All it needs is a practical, real-world application of basic physics along with the already clearly established fantasy of barriers / shields.

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Intense indoctrination will only work to a certain point.
Add the lack of alternative teachings.

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Also I said kinetic energy is bled off to the atmosphere and never did I say the energy is transferred to the mage.
You have insisted that the mage is safer from higher KE situations than lower ones. The consequence of this is that the amount of energy and force that does not get absorbed by the defensive complex and gets through to the mage decreases as the inputs increase.

Now, good luck defining a mechanism where KE is not only bled off to the atmosphere (which by itself is not that hard, you can turn into into work heating by deformation and vent it to the atmosphere), but less energy and force has to reach the mage as energies and forcesget higher.

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The thing is Quattro told Deici to fire not Jail. Jail only said cannon fire wouldn't kill Vivio if she really is the vessel of the saint. Jail did not tell Deici to shoot.
Well, if Scarlietti actually objected, he wouldn't have let them get away with the shot no? And why else will Dieci be there if not to ambush the helo.

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What are you trying to say here?
I meant to say that the TSAB will come down on them like a sack of bricks.

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Maybe true but they would still have a chance of escaping. If the gun is effective against mages then shooting is an option.
Your chances of ultimate escape go way down if the police suddenly decide to throw everything they have at you.

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Jail uses missiles on his type 2 drones. He threaten the whole of Midchilda, engaged in illegal research, attacked Ground HQ etc... and what did he get? He got imprisoned. Precia caused a dimensional incident due to her illegal experiments and she only got exiled. Now you're telling me a criminal with a gun will get even worse then that? Sorry, but that is not believable.
The point is what the gun will do to the base of national security.

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This doesn't stop her knights from actually requesting for actual armour. Hayate can always refuse.
The Master has made her Decision.

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This is way too idealistic. Is there even a real life equivalent to what you said?
Something like the sakoku (sp) of Tokugawa eras. They actually did manage to get almost all the guns.

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That is your opinion only. You do not have hard facts to back it up as well.
Neither do you. All you have is your fantasies of them having to have an anti-bullet capability with their barrier jackets, and you insist on doing it in the most scientifically implausible way.

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Different places train their troops differently is all I will say.
We were willing to buy that at the end of A's. Not at the end of StrikerS. At least ask questions! Three months is a length more suitable for boot camp. Even the Soviets use 6 to train a NCO specialist (who is horribly overspecialized and perhaps just outright poorly trained by Western standards) and they are working with a 2 year conscription period forcing them to get training over with ASAP so they can get some use out of the conscript.

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Because she loves her "mother" and will do anything she says.
Wouldn't it be quicker to say "Strip"?

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Not the inner layer itself?
No one really knows what it is. It clearly isn't the inner layer, though. Personally, I vote to leave it a shadow.

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Evidence?
Let's start with the bug we are discussing. Even if we can agree that only the outer layer is breached, it was breached by wind. To decide that those things are going to stand up to bullets anytime soon is asinine.

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How is it restricted?
I've explained it at least three times in this thread. In short, it involves being tougher than the bullet so the KE goes to deform the bullet. However, a BJ that's cuttable by windblast simply does not qualify for this.

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Again lack of evidence as mention somewhere above.
Not a problem unique to my theory. It does require the fewest fantasy elements.

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Fantasy science as well.
Not a problem unique to his theory, though it is a fantasy element, it is no more of a pipe dream than yours. And the fact that even science fiction that will employ that fantasy device will not employ a shield that becomes more protective with increasing input should tell you something about what a fantasy your little contraption is.

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If there was antimagic coating, then Signum's flame wouldn't surround her blade.
The flame is antimagic in the same sense of the anti-magic ammunition used, not a AMF. That's not difficult to understand, is it?

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Clarify for me what you're asking me here.
Your theory basically says that high KE = mage safe. Low KE = mage not safe. Thus, no bullet, low KE blades instead. Thus, you are saying that there is less total energy absorbed by the mage (not just percentage, amount) as KE goes up. You try and relate it to thermal, so tell me, how often this inverse correlation b/w input and output happen?

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You're talking only about the visible physical portion. I'm talking about the invisible fields.
I always discuss the entire defensive complex, of which the pseudomatter cloth is a vital part. The bug's blast cut through the entire defensive complex. Whatever fields or barriers you were fantasizing about, the bug cuts through them all.

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Your response to Keroko are not exactly relevant to what we are discussing. I already pointed out what I think about TK's theory, its fantasy science as well, not the hard science you're so fond of.
I explain how to use active defense to increase decelerative times and reduce load to Keroko. Tk's theory is not my first choice, but it is no more of a fantasy than yours.

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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Mackenzie Friend. Legal principle where you can have someone assist you in the trial, despite them not being a qualified lawyer. Chrono is apparently acting as this.

Also, they say that the trial is taking place at TSAB HQ. That'd be where her public defender would show up. Most Navy ships don't deploy with a JAG, y'know; they gotta wait till they get back to base to get the JAG officers to show up.
Since it is the day before the trial, wouldn't most people want to discuss things with the lawyer who will represent them? And actually, Yunno and Chrono, if they are witnesses, shouldn't have too much contact with Fate, who's the defendant. For all you know, Fate, who after all is an AAA mage, will use this opportunity to threaten the two into giving more favorable testimony than warranted.

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Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
What's the matter ark? Feeling left out of the job? Maybe the TSAB don't need them. *Evil Cackle.*
Aah, there goes the protection of the client. This becomes effectively a summary trial. I feel very unsafe.

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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
I just want to adress this while posting on the run: Your point above indicates an expectation of a level of professionalism and competance at odds with your position of the TSAB being insular idiots. [/i]
Actually, I'm expecting them to at least put in effort. I can almost forgive the TSAB for being incompetent, maybe they just don't even have a clue where to start, but Hayate has links to Earth.

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Besides, remember that at their core the TSAB, sadly, are essentially magical riot cops and SWAT. It's very likey there is a school of thought that goes "Why bother study this military crap, it has no relevance to anything we do!"
Those guys don't even take cover ... SWAT people know how to take cover better than those pokeys...

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Also, consider that she may well consider, "Eh, I'm in the TSAB, what does this have to do with me? I won't bother." There's precedent for this: Hayate has been shown in the manga refusing to work on taking care of herself in a close-range fight because as she puts it, she's artillery, why does she need to worry about close range? (Paraphrased. Nevermind that in real armies arty gun crews DO train for when the OMGWTF threat suddenly appears. Mulcahy v Ministry of Defence, British Army gun crew in Gulf War 1 blasted a T-72 at point-blank range (for arty, anyway.))
You know that most of us consider that whole farce a character assassination of Hayate, or in the SoD perspective, an unforgivable character flaw.

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Hayate's failings as a commanding officer are partly her, and also partly because of the institution which trained her. And since it's mentioned that she apprenticed under Genya, he shares some of the blame as well.
Yes, but Genya's pure Mid (he might have Japanese ancestors but he's all Mid now), and thus locked into their Zeitgeist. It is Hayate's job to bring some of Earth's Zeitgeist into TSAB to improve them.

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We have no indications of the TSAB facing an outward threat that would require the sort of planning, wargaming and study that lead to AirLand Battle and FM-23. To be fair, it's possible that the TSAB may have done this, concluded that their main focus should be on constabulary and stabilisation operations, and thus they're geared to that, much as how the US Army has concluded that COIN ops should now be a focus of the Army, resulting in Army-wide dessimation of FM-23.
I'm not demanding they know AirLand battle. I do demand they at least know basic concentration of force (basic principles of War or even schoolyard fighting - are you telling me Mid has no schoolyard fights?)

And as a police force, they should know how to deploy quickly. But no. 3 hours just to prepare a platoon, and a 4th to deliver them (Nanoha A's)..

In the whole Scarlietti incident, even on raised readiness, only one battalion (Nakajima's 308th) even moved into position as a unit. If any other battalions managed to move into position, we never saw them. Definitely no regimental commander showed up, which says that no regiment has deployed as a unit throughout the whole battle. The situation in the sky is the same. Hayate has control, thus implying she's the senior officer. Which means no unit higher than Squadron level managed to deploy as a unit. The Navy managed to move in six ships. Six.

Sigh....
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Old 2008-03-16, 06:04   Link #966
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See, this stuff is why I try to explain TSAB mishappenings in the series as the creators not knowing what they're talking about, and thus I make them semi-competent (to the best of my ability: I'm no tactical genius either ).
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Old 2008-03-16, 06:25   Link #967
Wild Goose
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Point. Many points.

I'm working on something that I'll post in here and OC as an idea on how the TSAB isn't exactly competant by military standards. It goes into OC because it references Erusia, which is an OC situation.
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Old 2008-03-16, 08:58   Link #968
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
And BTW it's not like mages making crazy zigzags is something we've never seen in Nanoha.
Don't you dare compare the two. One has a clear purpose, Yunno and Vita bashing into each other. The other is a bunch of random streaks and flashes

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BTW they make like 5 contacts in under 2 seconds, more evidence than when the animators aren't doing closeups the combat actually progresses quickly (or that mages can fight quickly when they want to, as you like, though then you'd have to invent some really preposterous bullshit to explain why they take it so easy the rest of the time). And since the characters actually come onscreen during the same 'shot' I don't really think you can call that 'random emissions.'
There are several possibilities that can be used in combination:
1) Actually analyzing the scene, their speed only comes out to be around 70-100m/s, which is very fast for them, but not impossible. You'll notice they tired of this let's bash each other game after a few seconds (probably because of all the accelerations as they zigged and clashed - the brain can take several hundred Gs transient, but that will make it several - really about time for them to get groggy, and their other organs probably aren't taking it too either).
2) The authors accelerated time for the shots. Time manipulation is never my first choice, but it is always these low detail, few if any sounds scenes that get derailed from the Realtime Throne. Scenes that are timemarked with voices must keep their positions in the timeline.
3) SoD's Standard Anti-Blooper Defense (Variant): The TSAB canonically has few if any recordings of this battle. Most of the time, we know they can observe magical battles in remarkable visual detail using their Technical Means of Reconnaissance, but this time, such observation means are known to be blocked by a barrier. Thus, the combat details have to be reconstructed or plain imagined without the benefit of raw data, and the recreators took some liberties. This will explain, for example, why in that zigzag sequence they kept freezing for several frames, destroying the time resolution.

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Okay guys, what's all this crap about Scaglietti not using guns because he can't even imagine them? He uses missiles. He's obsessed with Old Belkan tech, and the Ancient Belkans didn't have the ban.
They had a kind of bushido, though.

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Actually, the fact that the Knights were considered dangerous- or anything other than idiots, really- back in the day says more for the effectiveness of barrier jackets against modern weapons than anything else. Though I guess since you guys are stuck on this 'barrier jacket appearance matters' thing you're going to say they probably were all in plate or something and that makes the difference.
Or maybe they were most dangerous (and thus most noted) in places and times where they didn't have to face guns. I mean, how memorable will one of their reincarnations be, if the following happened:

They are reincarnated. They swear allegiance to their new master. Their new master tells them to get Linker Cores. They go and attack the local farmgirl who happens to have a big linker core. Fortunately, his daddy came to the rescue and shot the knight in the back with a rifle. The rest of them go down similarly in three days. Human casualties, zero. With all four knights gone, eventually the Book gets tired of waiting, devours its master completely and reincarnates.

Wow. How memorable. This might be in the local news, but it'll soon be lost in the noise of other more mundane murderers. It certainly is not likely to get into a Book that can be easily searched for in the library. Maybe somewhere, in the Infinity Library, there is a newspaper scrap with the story I just wrote ...
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Old 2008-03-16, 14:57   Link #969
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Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
Right now I only have a hypothesis. When I have an actual equation for calculating it, I'll let you know.
You don't need an equation. Ark was using the numbers as an example. However, a useful hypothesis must be able to make testable predictions.

As an adjunct to that, in principle, what observation could show your theory to be false? The mechanics of the hypothesis as stated are such that I can't think of one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
We have no indications of the TSAB facing an outward threat that would require the sort of planning, wargaming and study that lead to AirLand Battle and FM-23. To be fair, it's possible that the TSAB may have done this, concluded that their main focus should be on constabulary and stabilisation operations, and thus they're geared to that, much as how the US Army has concluded that COIN ops should now be a focus of the Army, resulting in Army-wide dessimation of FM-23.
Do you mean FM 3-24 COUNTERINSURGENCY?

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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Point. Many points.

I'm working on something that I'll post in here and OC as an idea on how the TSAB isn't exactly competant by military standards. It goes into OC because it references Erusia, which is an OC situation.
I wonder by which standard the TSAB is competent.
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Old 2008-03-16, 16:16   Link #970
Keroko
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Right, I figure its time for concrete evidence on some parts of the discussion, so I asked the people over at the image thread whether they had the A's DVD booklets. Luckilly DmonHiro had them, so Ark, if you would take the honors of either confirming or otherwise crushing my beliefs on the Signum/Fate barrier clash from episode 7:



Oh, and there also was this one one Divine Buster Extension:

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Last edited by Keroko; 2008-03-16 at 16:32.
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Old 2008-03-16, 16:50   Link #971
stormturmoil
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OK, maybe he isn't the prosecutor. Nevertheless, he and Yunno are the guys who give Fate her lines. Where is her lawyer?
The standard Space Time Administration Bureau Arrest speech:

"You are under arrest for violating Administration Bureau Laws. If you cease your hostilities and surrender, you may be granted the opportunity to plead in your own defence."

Note the emphasis: IF you surrender, Tehn (and by implication, ONLY then), are you given the chance to plead in your own defence.

Fate didn't surrender, and, by extension according to this statement (used several times in A's and StrikerS) therefore does not have the right to a defence.

As a result, there is no lawyer because she has no right to one at this stage. Having not met the terms of the arrest statement, she isn't entitled to plead in her own defence, and therefore presumably doesn't have the right to have someone else plead in her defence either.

If this is the case, Chrono's coaching may be his way of bending the rules slightly and giving her the benefits of a defence counsel she isn't ,strictly speaking, legally entitled to.
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Old 2008-03-16, 18:34   Link #972
Kha
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Originally Posted by stormturmoil View Post
The standard Space Time Administration Bureau Arrest speech:

"You are under arrest for violating Administration Bureau Laws. If you cease your hostilities and surrender, you may be granted the opportunity to plead in your own defence."

Note the emphasis: IF you surrender, Tehn (and by implication, ONLY then), are you given the chance to plead in your own defence.

Fate didn't surrender, and, by extension according to this statement (used several times in A's and StrikerS) therefore does not have the right to a defence.

As a result, there is no lawyer because she has no right to one at this stage. Having not met the terms of the arrest statement, she isn't entitled to plead in her own defence, and therefore presumably doesn't have the right to have someone else plead in her defence either.

If this is the case, Chrono's coaching may be his way of bending the rules slightly and giving her the benefits of a defence counsel she isn't ,strictly speaking, legally entitled to.
It's hard to believe, and then again totally believable after looking at Singapore the functional dystopia, that the biggest rule of Ordered Space has such little respect for human rights...
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Old 2008-03-16, 18:55   Link #973
Tk3997
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Originally Posted by Kha View Post
It's hard to believe, and then again totally believable after looking at Singapore the functional dystopia, that the biggest rule of Ordered Space has such little respect for human rights...
I wouldn't put too much on stock on such a simple statement myself. The fact is that even today police don't acutally have to say anything about rights during or after an arrest "Reading of rights" is required to interrogate NOT arrest. It's also worth noting that despite the fact Hollywood has come up with a sort of "pop culture" standard version of Miranda the fact is the court specified no wording in it's ruling so the exact wording can vary from place to place so long as it expresses the core tenants of the warning. As for what you say to arrest someone really you can phrase your order to desist and submit to arrest however you please so long as it clearly implies your intent and will to detain the person. In fact stating any sorts of rights makes little sense in the context IMO and it’s rather more likely this is merely a standardized and somewhat elaborate take on “Cease and desist”, and bear in mind this is a magic girl show recall so something that sounds a bit more dramatic then “I’m placing you under arrest I'd advise you come quietly.” is just par for the coruse.

Last edited by Tk3997; 2008-03-16 at 19:07.
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Old 2008-03-16, 19:16   Link #974
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Right, I figure its time for concrete evidence on some parts of the discussion, so I asked the people over at the image thread whether they had the A's DVD booklets. Luckilly DmonHiro had them, so Ark, if you would take the honors of either confirming or otherwise crushing my beliefs on the Signum/Fate barrier clash from episode 7:

They are crushed. In fact, we were both wrong, and Tk3997 is right - that wasn't the glow of a barrier jacket's defensive complex. It was Panzer Geist and Defencer Plus activating, according to the text. The guys agree with you that was a deflection, but that's cold comfort.

Quote:
Oh, and there also was this one one Divine Buster Extension:

[/quote]

This one? Sorry. It just says that it has a longer range than previously, and that it is used to fire on enemies outside of "usual battle ranges" in "outranging sniping". It has "shocking speed" that can reach through the "outranging" distance in an "instant", precision and power that will support a "super long range" shoot and it has DB's shield drill through capability. All high level, showing the skill of Nanoha as a bombardment mage.

The problem is, the entire blurb is filled with iffy words without quantitative references. Thus, they are defined by what is shown on screen, and "outranging" became ~100m ... at least according to the episode. "Shocking Speed" became 16m/s, and so on.
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Old 2008-03-16, 19:19   Link #975
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
Do you mean FM 3-24 COUNTERINSURGENCY?
....yeah. Oops. hurried post -_- And I even have a .pdf copy of it on my hard drive...

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I wonder by which standard the TSAB is competent.
By policing standards, perhaps; when Genya deployed his battalion, he deployed them in a formation used by countless forces of riot police through the ages. Heck, as another poster has said, all the drones needed were looting and breaking windows and some tear gas to make the scene complete...

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
She spends plenty of time on Earth and has plenty of access to Terran material and culture. If I were Hayate, the first question I'll ask is why is TSAB officer training only 3 months long while training on Earth goes on for at least a year?
Something to take note of, Ark - that three months is officer candidate school. And you're right, it's really short! Why, in the US, it's 3 months as well!

Since the writers don't know any better, Ark, they're following a typical OCS route, which is a 3-month officer course, for the US Army and JSDF. Not for nothing are OCS grads called "90 Wonders" (or Blunders in the more disparaging version.) By the wording used in the manga, we do know it's OCS.

Different places do have their OCS longer; Singapore's OCS is 38 weeks since they don't have an academy, but generally most OCS courses in the world are around 3 months, with 6 being the longest.

Also, if the training is only 3 months, then it's curious that Hayate goes for extra training before screening for LTC. But wait, there's only 3 months training? How is that possible?

Command and Staff College. You need this to qualify for COL and flag ranks, and since the TSAB apparently seems interested in bringing the ranks 1 down (Major in command of battalion instead of LTC, LTC commanding division instead of a full bird), this suggests that the extra training Hayate went in for to become a division commander IS Command and Staff College.

Also, note that there's mentions of Genya training her and she being under his command. Since they met for the first time at the airport fire, it's likely that she was trained under him as part of her practicals post C&SC.

Furthermore, Ark, a lot of officer training is on the job, taking place after they're comissioned. Even USMC OCS is 3 months, but then has several more months of The Basic School, aka turning Marine officers into infantrymen.

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Maybe blood is indeed seeping inside her, but as long as it is inside, we don't see it. Also, the width of the cut matters, not just its length. The wind hit the barrier jacket, went through and nicked her. What's so hard to understand?
...

Okay, here's an experiment. Take a crisp dollar bill, or any crisp paper. Fold it three times, and run the sharp edge on your side, where Rein was grazed, while wearing a shirt. Even a scrath sends tingles up and down your side, doesn't it?

Even if it doesn't penetrate, even if the graze only cuts the outer layer and scratches her, without bruising or drawing blood, it'll still hurt. That area of the body is quite sensitive. But less sensitive than there, obviously.

On an aside: I personally don't mind BJs having less protection against guns. It makes my OCs more viable.
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Old 2008-03-16, 19:36   Link #976
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
They are crushed. In fact, we were both wrong, and Tk3997 is right - that wasn't the glow of a barrier jacket's defensive complex. It was Panzer Geist and Defencer Plus activating, according to the text. The guys agree with you that was a deflection, but that's cold comfort.
I still find it absurd it acutally came to needing that it’s so blatantly frikkin obvious what happened in my opinion hence my disbelief when he submitted it as “evidence” for his threoy to begin with.
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Old 2008-03-16, 22:04   Link #977
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
By policing standards, perhaps; when Genya deployed his battalion, he deployed them in a formation used by countless forces of riot police through the ages. Heck, as another poster has said, all the drones needed were looting and breaking windows and some tear gas to make the scene complete...
How many riot police don't adapt to the fact the enemy is not just rioting, but shooting at them?

The officer part deserves a nice long answer, so wait for it.

Quote:
Okay, here's an experiment. Take a crisp dollar bill, or any crisp paper. Fold it three times, and run the sharp edge on your side, where Rein was grazed, while wearing a shirt. Even a scrath sends tingles up and down your side, doesn't it?

Even if it doesn't penetrate, even if the graze only cuts the outer layer and scratches her, without bruising or drawing blood, it'll still hurt. That area of the body is quite sensitive. But less sensitive than there, obviously.

On an aside: I personally don't mind BJs having less protection against guns. It makes my OCs more viable.
I've tried folded paper and I've tried cards. At worse they are uncomfortable, but I don't see myself clutching it for more than a second. And my shirt definitely was not damaged by that!
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Old 2008-03-16, 22:21   Link #978
tshouryuu
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
You don't need an equation. Ark was using the numbers as an example. However, a useful hypothesis must be able to make testable predictions.
Since you put it that way, the hypothesis is useless and untestable since the only way to do test is if we have a mage wearing a barrier jacket and we either:
  1. launch various projectiles of equal mass at different speeds at the mage and see what happens.
  2. launch said mage into a wall at different speed (perferred method of testing since one less variable)
Then see how much damage the mage suffers with each impact.

* tshouryuu drools at the silly thought of launching Fate at a wall, in her barrier jacket then strip her to make a complete medical check to see how much damage she suffers. *
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Originally Posted by Mirificus View Post
As an adjunct to that, in principle, what observation could show your theory to be false? The mechanics of the hypothesis as stated are such that I can't think of one.
To show my hypothesis is false, all I need is for one screen shot that shows a mage impacting against a wall or something with a visible barrier/field activated behind the mage, since mages slamming into buildings/walls at great speed without visible barriers/fields activated makes up half of my observations.
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Old 2008-03-16, 23:08   Link #979
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Something that just occured to me on Hayate bringin in EArth's zeitgeist: She CAN'T.

Why?

Because when you join a military, you are expected to leave your past and your ways behind, and conform to your service's zeitgeist - the most graphic example being USMC Boot Camp, which unlike USA Basic, is primarily focused on imparting the Marine ethos into enlistees (along with the basics of killing things; further instruction is then handled at the School of Infantry).

Now, this isn't to say that it can't happen; there are historical examples of militaries adopting foreign concepts. Delta Force was heavily inspired by the SAS, and SEAL Team Six adopted the MP5 due to input from GSG-9. The British were the people who came up with the idea of snipers (though it was E.J. Land who refined the concept into today's Marine Scout Sniper). However, these examples are exceptions. In the casaes of beckwith and Marcinko, they got away with teh cross british contamination due to their backers - Chief of staff, and Planning Hean & CNO respectively.

Hayate's backers are all political. She has no backers within the GF chain of command.

If she is to introduce earth thinking, she can only do so once she gets stars.
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Old 2008-03-17, 00:02   Link #980
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Let me reorganize the paragraphs a bit to match my answering order.

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Something to take note of, Ark - that three months is officer candidate school. And you're right, it's really short! Why, in the US, it's 3 months as well!

Since the writers don't know any better, Ark, they're following a typical OCS route, which is a 3-month officer course, for the US Army and JSDF. Not for nothing are OCS grads called "90 Wonders" (or Blunders in the more disparaging version.) By the wording used in the manga, we do know it's OCS.

Different places do have their OCS longer; Singapore's OCS is 38 weeks since they don't have an academy, but generally most OCS courses in the world are around 3 months, with 6 being the longest.

Furthermore, Ark, a lot of officer training is on the job, taking place after they're comissioned. Even USMC OCS is 3 months, but then has several more months of The Basic School, aka turning Marine officers into infantrymen.
The initial training period of an officer is part of a whole military system, which is why we were willing to give it the benefit of the doubt when they were still portraying them as reasonably capable. However, after StrikerS, one has to give it a closer scrutiny.

The United States OCS, in its modern incarnation, is AFAIK compensated by the fact that most of those who enter it are former enlisted and are taking it to codify a few things they had probably learnt for themselves on the field already. They might even be just getting the "Officer rubber stamp" more than learning much. They definitely are not 9-year old girls that hadn't even finished Primary Education...

The other compensation that allows Western officer education to be relatively short is the strong NCO corps. The officers are effectively and knowingly sent out half trained, even after IOBC or TBS, and a sergeant or chief covers for their weaknesses while trying to finish training them OTJ during their platoon leader's tour. Even more senior NCOs advise company or even battalion commanders and NCOs handle most of the detailed technical tasks. From what we've seen (data we didn't have back when they first announced that Fate and Nanoha graduated from 3-month OCS), however, the NCO corps in the TSAB is clearly not of the required caliber to perform that duty. I mean, Reinforce II as the senior NCO? (Griffiths is a "Preparatory Ground Captain", so he's really an officer) How STRONG the NCO corps is! So that model clearly does not apply.

When you've got a weak NCO corps, you need a strong officer corps to get the military moving. To get some idea of how long that takes, we might look at the Soviets, who have a weak NCO corps. They have over a hundred "Officers Higher Schools", all 4-5 years long. Any attempt to shorten this period ends miserably.

In the 50s, the Soviet Navy (officer's education wasn't always 5 years long!) used to have some 2-3 year (that still makes it 12 times longer than OCS) long "Intermediate Schools" that gave a specialized education officers (say for Mine and Torpedoes) back in the 50s. Then they had "Higher Schools" that gave a general officer's education. Neither were satisfactory. The Intermediate Schools wound up producing officers that were OK in their one field. The Higher Schools wound up producing generalists that basically struggled everywhere. The Soviets wound up marginalizing the Intermediate Schools and extending the Higher School by years to cover a specialization.

The Soviets did kind of have a ROTC program. Nobody liked what came out there either. They are forced to take more officers from civilian institutions these days for short service due to a shortage of Military Higher School cadre. The majority opinion is that almost all of them are useless - the officers that did come out of Higher Schools wind up doing their homework for them...

At least the Soviets have cadre that can do homework. One wonders whether the homework just doesn't get done in the TSAB...

They are now thinking about making some ten month OCS type courses (about the same length as say the Japanese officer program for civilian university grads), and are meeting resistance from "conservatives" who think adequate officers only come from 4-5 year Military Higher Schools. No doubt the "reformers" will try and use the Western examples like you do, but I think I'll side with the "conservatives" - in the current and near future Russian context, until they somehow build up a strong NCO corps (which arguably gets difficult with a strong officer corps), adequate officers will only come from long, specialized education. I suppose you can see my allegory to the TSAB. But back to those suckers.

Quote:
Also, if the training is only 3 months, then it's curious that Hayate goes for extra training before screening for LTC. But wait, there's only 3 months training? How is that possible?

Command and Staff College. You need this to qualify for COL and flag ranks, and since the TSAB apparently seems interested in bringing the ranks 1 down (Major in command of battalion instead of LTC, LTC commanding division instead of a full bird), this suggests that the extra training Hayate went in for to become a division commander IS Command and Staff College.
Be careful when you use "division" and "battalion". They are entirely mappings of our imagination. In Midchildran, both are rated as "Forces", implying they are of a similar command level. In official Japanese translation, they are both butai (部隊,unit), and Hayate (in the Japanese translation), is not only a butaicho, but also a kacho, with ka (課) = Department.

Quote:
Also, note that there's mentions of Genya training her and she being under his command. Since they met for the first time at the airport fire, it's likely that she was trained under him as part of her practicals post C&SC.
Hayate did receive additional training later on in her career. And there is another course for "Executive Officers" (not Enforcer BTW, we've already mistakenly created a whole TSAB culture around a Triad mapping which turned out to be inaccurate). So some PME does occur but its quality is clearly dubious. We already know that Commander's training failed Hayate entirely.

Fate's "Executive Officer" training certainly lacked in moral-psychological preparation and maybe investigative ability - seeing how fast Acous zoomed in on Scarlietti's cave in comparison.

Chrono (and Lindy) allowed the Book of Darkness situation to disintegrate to the point they nearly had to Arc millions of Terrans. Japan was saved because completely untrained Nanoha, Fate and Hayate managed to come up with a better plan than the trained Asura crew...

PME indeed... By the way, this "Executive Officer" thing explains why Hayate has no Assistant Commander. Fate, as an "Executive Officer" is the Assistant commander. At least this rids them of one massive crime.
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