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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 21 Rating
Perfect 10 109 57.67%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 44 23.28%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 21 11.11%
7 out of 10 : Good 9 4.76%
6 out of 10 : Average 2 1.06%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.53%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.53%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.53%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.53%
Voters: 189. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-03-07, 12:00   Link #441
NeonZ
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These GN-Xs are FAR weaker than Freedom or Justice. They're literally the equivalent of the Strike Gundam, which, by the time that GMs and Murasames and the 3 druggies came around, was getting rather obsolescent. Despite these technical stats (aside from phase shift...but in the G00verse, all of the MSes are built with E-carbon armor (Whatever the hell that is)), the GMs and Murasames *still* ate it by the numbers.
... You're just looking at the weapons. That's a completely wrong way to consider things. Mobile Suits also need speed and maneuverability to be effective. If you take away every single one of the Freedom's weapons, leaving it only with a Beam rifle and 2 beam sabers, it'd still be a much better machine than the Strike - this is basically what is happening right now in 00.

In spite of only wielding generic weaponry, these GN-X match the performance of the Gundams in every other way - they can even take direct hits of weak beam weapons without damage, unlike every other MS in 00 besides the Gundams, and rip through the GN barrier thing.
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Old 2008-03-07, 12:19   Link #442
4Tran
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Originally Posted by winter45
Given i dont know their specific mission orders ill have to assume at this point its up to the commanding officer indepandant decision to make the call. IF the withdrawl order is a clear violation of their mission objectives then the CO has made a critical decision that may lead to insubordination (possibly disciplnary charges and demotion). With 50% of gundums capacitated with one GN X down, still had a advantage on the Battlefield.
While we obviously don't know any great detail about the Allied objectives, it's most likely that it was to destroy the Gundams. It's almost certainly within Katie's perogative to withdraw or proceed as she saw fit, so there isn't any question over whether she exceeded her authority.

It's more of a matter of whether it's a good decision to squander their opportunities simply because an unexpected element showed up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45
In the previouse battles we are already aware that UNM have performed badly when new circumstances occurs in the battlefield (eg the introduction of thrones) so going from past experiances it would be a wise decision to withdrawl and formulate new battle plans (taken from the blackboxes and recorded footage as well as logs including debriefing) to include the new hardware performance to adjust and counter new weapons that have been deployed on the battlefield by the enemy.
The main difference is that in the Gobi Desert, the blocs lost all of their initial advantages very quickly after the Trinitys arrived, so they wouldn't lose out by withdrawing.

In general, the blocs didn't really perform badly because they were unable to cope with new circumstances - it's more a matter of failing to capitalize on their own advantages and opportunities.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45
Both do fare poor in many ways but 00 are implemanting tactics to give characters development and traits. 00 is no way perfect but anyone half a brain can easily see that 00 are implement in a much more life like military feel wise apposed to CE one sided fly squating fest..... Even the first half of seed, the so called tactics and teamwork is just a joke that 00 just blows it out of existance.
You're piqueing my interest; what tactics in Gundam 00 do you see as well implemented?

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Originally Posted by Galerian
You do if the Gundams are the only opposition you need the GN-X's against in the first place. You can hardly have them fight some ANF's and expect to get the complete picture of their capabilities.
The goal of testing military equipment against a certain foe is to determine how well it would fare under such circumstances, how to maximize performance and how to minimize losses in real combat. Isn't it then counterproductive to throw such equipment in real combat as the test? An equivalent "test" of this nature would be to determine how good an assassin is at killing the Princess of Azadistan by sending him to kill the Princess of Azadistan! In such a circumstance, I suppose that you can call it a test, but it really isn't one.

Instead, modern militaries perform all manner of simulations - the most pertinent one of which would be Agressor squadrons.
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Old 2008-03-07, 16:21   Link #443
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Originally Posted by DJ_RockmanX View Post
Two answers:

The GN-X units use beam heavy rifles and submachine guns, whereas the Thrones use so-called beam handguns.

Tieria notes when the shield is destroyed something about particle compression ratio (or something close to that), and how their shots were able to perfectly cancel out the GN Field. That's information likely to have been fed to them by the traitor within Celestial Being.
1.From what i remember the Thrones Michale hit that Shield with a full blast from his rifle i cant see it being a submachine or a beam handgun that gun was plenty large but i will go back and look.

2.Well if thats true that means that Tiera is using Shield modulation which any smart person would do working with shield. Using the same frequency over and over in battle is a bad idea. That means that the so called "traitor" know what frequencies Tieria is using. I find this hard to believe unless Veda also records and maintains that kind of data which would not be impossible given how much data Veda already has. I still find it strange I figured the GN-X's energy were on the same principals as the Thrones it doesn't add to me.
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Old 2008-03-07, 17:11   Link #444
Demongod86
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Originally Posted by Ardi220288 View Post
I'm just asking but do you like shinn ? (or character like shinn) - without comparing it with another character - (I'm not asking if he is your favourite character)
No, I don't. My favorite Gundam pilot within the last 5 years was Kira Yamato since we saw him grow from a whiny civilian to someone that was almost a superhero. Overall favorite? Possibly Zechs.

Shinn was very one-dimensional, which is why I don't like him.
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Old 2008-03-07, 20:30   Link #445
winter45
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
While we obviously don't know any great detail about the Allied objectives, it's most likely that it was to destroy the Gundams. It's almost certainly within Katie's perogative to withdraw or proceed as she saw fit, so there isn't any question over whether she exceeded her authority.
Im just point this out, I do have experiance in reading and briefing missions so i have a good idea whats involved. But without knowing what is the mission in detail it is very hard for myself to determine what flexibility the CO has while the mission is conducted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
It's more of a matter of whether it's a good decision to squander their opportunities simply because an unexpected element showed up.
This is yet to be determine, perhaps next episode we may find out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The main difference is that in the Gobi Desert, the blocs lost all of their initial advantages very quickly after the Trinitys arrived, so they wouldn't lose out by withdrawing.

In general, the blocs didn't really perform badly because they were unable to cope with new circumstances - it's more a matter of failing to capitalize on their own advantages and opportunities..
GN X is Hardware, manpower and money (possibly blackmail later). These are all resources, The question is do you want to loose them in one battle? Or keep them as long as possible too win a war?

What im getting at is that you dont want to loose your best resources in one battle unnecessary. Hence y caution is needed. If they can pump out GN x's every day then that isnt a problem. But as far as we know there is just only 30 of them. So caution is required when deploying irreplacable units on the battlefield.

So yes you can win a battle by throwing away your best resources, but i hate to see how you are going to survive the war.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
You're piqueing my interest; what tactics in Gundam 00 do you see as well implemented?.
ill list a few. Episode 21 when UNM had a fireteam giving fire support to thier advancing units. Suppressing the meisters so they can only dodge or take snapshots while under fire. Thats a standard form of tactic used in infantry warfare today that is still practiced.

Episode with the meisters being suprresed for 12 hours or so. Had constant artillery and aeiral bombardment firing at enemy positions for extreme duratons. Even tho the destructon of enemy units (Gundams) is minimal but the long psychological stress may lead to Shell shock. This method softens up miltary targets for the incoming offense from the forward positions waiting for the assult phase. This is commonly used at bombarding fortified positions or enemy fixed positions extensivly in WW1 and WW2 specificily in trench warfare.

Plus we already seen some some buddyup system between the meisters EG. setsuna and tiera vs the thrones as well as few others that i cant remember in detail.
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Old 2008-03-07, 21:06   Link #446
wingdarkness
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Originally Posted by Demongod86
Frankly, I don't take Gundam too seriously, since the very premise is ridiculous to begin with. Why the hell would giant robots ever come around to begin with?
You should get some Flavor-Flav gold-fangs with this entire phrase written on it, then smile on command^^...

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Simply put, G00 simply lacks that feeling of EPIC and emotional charge that other Gundams had. Zechs in GW and EW was literally epic incarnate. The constant Athrun/Kira battles were great emotional rides right from episode 1 of SEED. Hell, even G Gundam in its ridiculousness made for at least some attachment with the Domon/Rain love story and 08th MS team as a whole was a sort of feel-good romance story.

To me, the thing is, G00 lacks what WD so loves in Gundam--THE SOUL. It has no emotion.

The only way to match any of the other shows' levels of emotion would be to pit Graham vs. Ali, and as much as we'd all like that, we all know that that's not going to happen, even though these are the only two characters that are remotely actively providing emotional energy to this show. Hell, it would have been nice if we knew WHAT Sumeragi's crime was in the Union...maybe she'd set the suit of Graham's superior to self-destruct since she was in love with him? Now THAT'D be a twist!

Edit: WD, what do you define as normal anyway? Would you define Zechs as normal? Because what makes him so appealing is that he's not some Gundam-nut trained his whole life for piloting a gundam and only that, but that he genuinely had the skills.
Dude I don't know...I'm saying anything that isn't superhero fantasy fap flavored has to be NORMAL for you...You're a radical when it comes to this...I see more normalcy in Cammille with all his latent abilities that give Zeta it's Super-Saiyan glow than in what gets your tongue wet...You have no context, no desire, no willingness, no iota of stamina for understanding or even compromising to enjoy something out of your limited comfort zone...Nevermind differentiating between how things are presented...

You can make an argument that the newtype dolphins from Gundam X are presented more believably than a pink-haired pop star commanding galaxy armies like they're miniature bouncing haro's...Presentation is the key as I've told you more times than you can sprinkle some Lacus dust at...Mizushima said clearly and concisely how he was gonna craft this show, so to go into it with no understanding for this and thinking Gundam pilots are gonna be doing twirl-moves and circles of death while getting there angst-fest on puts the pie in your face...Unlike you I can deal with changing my expectations based on the presentation and enjoy the other soulful elements the show is producing (Mostly in the conceptual realm, storytelling, and characterizations...In addition to the awesome yet contained action)...

This show has established that it's not gonna be over-the-top teeny drama with a guy hugging a dead Nicol's redcoat for twenty minutes with donut-glaze coming outta his eyes as the 13 year old female Japanese audience ratings spike...This ain't that type of party man and you knew that, yet you still b!tch and moan about what you knew wouldn't be...This show is almost the complete antithesis of the SEED universe and it seems to be perfectly crafted to that end, yet still flashy and cool enuff to attract viewers like yourself (Obviously less extreme)...I like Rau and Kira (not GSD Kira unfortunatley) and lots of those dramatic elements in the CE, but a third round of this following GSD's tragic legacy is like pumping bee-bee gun pellets into a dead rat that's already been run over twice...

I mean I ain't gonna lie, Gundam 00 isn't necessarily doing everything on my checklist for my perfect Gundam show...Sure I'd love more ideological banter between pilots while in the heat of battle (probably my favorite aspect of Gundam), but I don't throw out the baby if the bathwater is still at a good temperature...Gundam 00 doesn't always give me precisely what I want but it gives me what I need, and keeps me off balance as a viewer...And perhaps the ultimate soul isn't the words spoken during fights (Unless it's my favorite character Graham), but it's found in so many other things I can't be swayed...Additionally the show is so equally crafted to cater to audiences of various longings, it's hard not to find something to enjoy, but only YOU could even top yourself...
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Old 2008-03-07, 21:27   Link #447
StratoSpear
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Originally Posted by Tendou88 View Post
You got a point there !

maybe the GN shield is weaker in space
That's a possibility... We didn't see the GN Field getting penetrated by anything on Earth... But when in space, it could be penetrated by a smoothbore gun at close range(Ep 10) and some GN-T beam shots(Ep 21).
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Old 2008-03-08, 01:51   Link #448
4Tran
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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Im just point this out, I do have experiance in reading and briefing missions so i have a good idea whats involved. But without knowing what is the mission in detail it is very hard for myself to determine what flexibility the CO has while the mission is conducted.
True, but it's awfully unlikely that Katie was given the order not to retreat at all costs.

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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
This is yet to be determine, perhaps next episode we may find out.
What's there to determine? It's all but guaranteed that Setsuna will use GN Arms to kick all types of butt in episode 22. The reason that we couldn't see this in episode 21 was because the creators wanted to have a dedicated episode to show the Gundams facing the GN-Xs before adding new toys to the mix.

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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
GN X is Hardware, manpower and money (possibly blackmail later). These are all resources, The question is do you want to loose them in one battle? Or keep them as long as possible too win a war?

What im getting at is that you dont want to loose your best resources in one battle unnecessary. Hence y caution is needed. If they can pump out GN x's every day then that isnt a problem. But as far as we know there is just only 30 of them. So caution is required when deploying irreplacable units on the battlefield.

So yes you can win a battle by throwing away your best resources, but i hate to see how you are going to survive the war.
As far as the leaders of the blocs are concerned, losses to GN-Xs are of little consequence - the GN-Xs aren't deemed to be irreplaceable at all. And if they weren't considered worth sacrificing if necessary, they would never have been committed in the first place. Moreover, the risk to those units has to be balanced with the damage that the Meisters had already done, the damage that they would do in the future, and the odds of cornering them like that again.

A convenient way of thinking of the Gundams is equating them to modern terrorists - would a first world country balk at the chance of taking down the world's most wanted men just because they might stand to lose some high-end military hardware and some elite troops?

By the way, the only "war" that the power blocs are engaged in at the moment are against Celestial Being, so they don't exactly stand to lose it just because a few GN-Xs go down.

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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
ill list a few. Episode 21 when UNM had a fireteam giving fire support to thier advancing units. Suppressing the meisters so they can only dodge or take snapshots while under fire. Thats a standard form of tactic used in infantry warfare today that is still practiced.
This is rather counterbalanced by the GN-Xs actually stopping their fire when they realized the Gundams were inactive. And then there's the thing with formation flying. And how about attacking in ones and twos so that the Gundams stood to defeat them in detail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Episode with the meisters being suprresed for 12 hours or so. Had constant artillery and aeiral bombardment firing at enemy positions for extreme duratons. Even tho the destructon of enemy units (Gundams) is minimal but the long psychological stress may lead to Shell shock. This method softens up miltary targets for the incoming offense from the forward positions waiting for the assult phase. This is commonly used at bombarding fortified positions or enemy fixed positions extensivly in WW1 and WW2 specificily in trench warfare.
To be honest, I hated this episode. Artillery bombardments to soften up a static defensive position held by infantry is one thing, but using it the way they did against the Gundams - no, definitely not my cup of tea.

By the way, I thought that "shell shock" was due to exposure to all sorts of combat conditions over a prolonged period of time - over the course of weeks and months. While the name may imply suffering due to artillery bombardment, I'm under the impression that it's much more of a general description rather than a precise one. Moreover, I believe that the combat records in both World Wars are rather conclusive that prolonged artillery bombardments weren't particularly effective against well-prepared positions.
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Old 2008-03-08, 03:23   Link #449
winter45
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
True, but it's awfully unlikely that Katie was given the order not to retreat at all costs.
Doesnt matter if she does or not... She may be held total responsible if the higherups are not impressed with the outcome.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
What's there to determine? It's all but guaranteed that Setsuna will use GN Arms to kick all types of butt in episode 22. The reason that we couldn't see this in episode 21 was because the creators wanted to have a dedicated episode to show the Gundams facing the GN-Xs before adding new toys to the mix.
Im referring to determine to see if the higher ups will chew out Patrick for the withdrawl order.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
As far as the leaders of the blocs are concerned, losses to GN-Xs are of little consequence - the GN-Xs aren't deemed to be irreplaceable at all. And if they weren't considered worth sacrificing if necessary, they would never have been committed in the first place. Moreover, the risk to those units has to be balanced with the damage that the Meisters had already done, the damage that they would do in the future, and the odds of cornering them like that again..
No dont start "they wont use if they arnt worth sacrificing talk". GN- x are the only units that are capable countering gundums effectivly.. Does not mean they are worth sacrificing unneccessary.

Besides that is a call from the CO so if higherups are unpleased the CO will feel the weight behind his bad decsion. Bad calls WILL always happen. Ive seen it too many times in IRAQ and Afganistan.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
A convenient way of thinking of the Gundams is equating them to modern terrorists - would a first world country balk at the chance of taking down the world's most wanted men just because they might stand to lose some high-end military hardware and some elite troops?.
Terrorists they may be.. but these terrorists are not your common terrorists are they? They have access to worlds intel net, Technology that surpasses the super powers combined. So you may not want to take the *These are just typical terrorists approach* We already seen thru 00 many times the *world blocs* have failed time after time. So never underestimate your opponant just becuase what they represent (terrorists)... Judge them on what they can do.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
By the way, the only "war" that the power blocs are engaged in at the moment are against Celestial Being, so they don't exactly stand to lose it just because a few GN-Xs go down..
Nobody wants to loose and both sides will fight. But $hit happens all the time on the battlefield from unlucky circumstnaces to bad decisions. We dont know what is UNM acceptible losses now do we?

My origional argument is that i can see within reason y the withdrawl order was issued. Doesnt mean i totally agree with it.


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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
This is rather counterbalanced by the GN-Xs actually stopping their fire when they realized the Gundams were inactive. And then there's the thing with formation flying. And how about attacking in ones and twos so that the Gundams stood to defeat them in detail?..
Never said its was effective or accurate. Ive already implied in a previous post that the tactics in 00 is far from perfect.

Im only refering to the scenes when they were using some form of tactics. But this is anime.. they know how to F**K it up.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
To be honest, I hated this episode. Artillery bombardments to soften up a static defensive position held by infantry is one thing, but using it the way they did against the Gundams - no, definitely not my cup of tea..
No surprise you dont like 00 as much as i dont like CE. I like 00 for its atempt to bring military realism. Far from perfect but its a nice change than duels with random cockpit shouts screaming at each other about world peace.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
By the way, I thought that "shell shock" was due to exposure to all sorts of combat conditions over a prolonged period of time - over the course of weeks and months. While the name may imply suffering due to artillery bombardment, I'm under the impression that it's much more of a general description rather than a precise one. Moreover, I believe that the combat records in both World Wars are rather conclusive that prolonged artillery bombardments weren't particularly effective against well-prepared positions.
I asked a surgeon on base to give me a decription of shellshock and she gave me this short printout for me.

Combat stress reaction, in the past commonly known as shell shock or battle fatigue, is a military term used to categorize a range of behaviours resulting from the stress of battle which decrease the combatant's fighting efficiency. The most common symptoms are fatigue, slower reaction times, indecision, disconnection from one's surroundings, and inability to prioritize. Combat stress reaction is generally short-term and should not be confused with acute stress disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, or other long-term disorders attributable to combat stress although any of these may commence as a combat stress reaction.

Hope this clear this up that exposure to shellshock doesnt take weeks or months.

Surgeon said the closest thing to shellshock if possible is to be in a room with people and have an earthquake for long duration and still have some similar effect to shellshock but still far from it.
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Old 2008-03-08, 12:01   Link #450
4Tran
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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Doesnt matter if she does or not... She may be held total responsible if the higherups are not impressed with the outcome.
That goes without saying. If we use the previous episodes as precedent, this kind of decision is par for course.

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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
No dont start "they wont use if they arnt worth sacrificing talk". GN- x are the only units that are capable countering gundums effectivly.. Does not mean they are worth sacrificing unneccessary.
Untrue. They've had several chances to take out the Gundams with their standard gear - they may take more losses in doing so, but it's certainly not out of the question. Besides, the Gundams weren't posing any sort of urgent threat, so there was no pressing need to go after them immediately with the GN-Xs. The fact that they deployed them so soon after acquiring them indicates that they were considered expendable.

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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Terrorists they may be.. but these terrorists are not your common terrorists are they? They have access to worlds intel net, Technology that surpasses the super powers combined. So you may not want to take the *These are just typical terrorists approach* We already seen thru 00 many times the *world blocs* have failed time after time. So never underestimate your opponant just becuase what they represent (terrorists)... Judge them on what they can do.
This only means that a greater expenditure of resources, lives and materiel is justified. And that the Allies had even greater incentive to try and finish the Gundams off.

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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Nobody wants to loose and both sides will fight. But $hit happens all the time on the battlefield from unlucky circumstnaces to bad decisions. We dont know what is UNM acceptible losses now do we?
Actually, the early deployment of the GN-Xs indicates that they were all considered expendable.

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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Never said its was effective or accurate. Ive already implied in a previous post that the tactics in 00 is far from perfect.

Im only refering to the scenes when they were using some form of tactics. But this is anime.. they know how to F**K it up.
Under such low standards, the Cosmic Era shows display tactics as well. I'm not sure why you can say that Gundam 00 is so much better in this regard.

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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
No surprise you dont like 00 as much as i dont like CE. I like 00 for its atempt to bring military realism. Far from perfect but its a nice change than duels with random cockpit shouts screaming at each other about world peace.
What attempt? Gundam 00 isn't trying to be realistic at all, with the exception of the geopolitical setup.

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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
I asked a surgeon on base to give me a decription of shellshock and she gave me this short printout for me.

Combat stress reaction, in the past commonly known as shell shock or battle fatigue, is a military term used to categorize a range of behaviours resulting from the stress of battle which decrease the combatant's fighting efficiency. The most common symptoms are fatigue, slower reaction times, indecision, disconnection from one's surroundings, and inability to prioritize. Combat stress reaction is generally short-term and should not be confused with acute stress disorder, post-traumatic stress disorder, or other long-term disorders attributable to combat stress although any of these may commence as a combat stress reaction.

Hope this clear this up that exposure to shellshock doesnt take weeks or months.
The short-term in that article refers to the effects being short-term; compared to something like PTSD whose effects can last years to decades.

By the way, why did she print out the wiki article?

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Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Surgeon said the closest thing to shellshock if possible is to be in a room with people and have an earthquake for long duration and still have some similar effect to shellshock but still far from it.
You seem to be referring to something different from the medical condition of shell shock - not all the people who were shelled suffer from it, and certain sufferers had never been shelled at all.
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Old 2008-03-08, 13:04   Link #451
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Untrue. They've had several chances to take out the Gundams with their standard gear - they may take more losses in doing so, but it's certainly not out of the question. Besides, the Gundams weren't posing any sort of urgent threat, so there was no pressing need to go after them immediately with the GN-Xs. The fact that they deployed them so soon after acquiring them indicates that they were considered expendable.
We will use your logic... anything sent on the battlefild is expendable, Thats fine, but doesnt make them irreplacable.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
This only means that a greater expenditure of resources, lives and materiel is justified. And that the Allies had even greater incentive to try and finish the Gundams off.
Now your mendling with my words from my response to your response. This is just your perception and opinion. I aint going to argue further.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Actually, the early deployment of the GN-Xs indicates that they were all considered expendable.
Once again doesnt make it irreplacable.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Under such low standards, the Cosmic Era shows display tactics as well. I'm not sure why you can say that Gundam 00 is so much better in this regard.
What tactics? All i remember is some dude shouting peace and beamspamming every grunt suit out there who couldnt use a 10th of a brain to work together and use evasive, defensive and aggresive manuevers. 00 have shown some very grunt/tank style tactics, even tho limited but it has been clearly shown. Its your loss if you didnt see it.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
What attempt? Gundam 00 isn't trying to be realistic at all, with the exception of the geopolitical setup.
If you didnt see, it your loss. But if anything you seem to be very biased against the show already so ill be wasting my time if i typed a list up.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The short-term in that article refers to the effects being short-term; compared to something like PTSD whose effects can last years to decades.
Stress of battle is the key phrase. Very generalised but being bombarded from bombs and shelled for a long duration of time is a contribution towards shellshock aka battle fatigued and Combat stress reaction

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
By the way, why did she print out the wiki article?.
No idea... perhaps she was busy and gave me a quick fix. And thx for letting me know im just reading it up now.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
You seem to be referring to something different from the medical condition of shell shock - not all the people who were shelled suffer from it, and certain sufferers had never been shelled at all.
Ok im not even going to start. Your taking my VERY GENERALISED and obvious words FAR out of context from my origional post.
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Old 2008-03-08, 14:32   Link #452
4Tran
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45
We will use your logic... anything sent on the battlefild is expendable, Thats fine, but doesnt make them irreplacable.
You're sort of misconstruing my reasoning: there are a few elements that suggest that the GN-Xs were considered expendable:

1. They weren't fully tested, and the pilots didn't have much opportunity for seasoning.
2. They weren't given the kind of support (reserves, reconnaissance, etc.) that you'd expect for truly irreplaceable units.
3. They were still sent in despite the high chances of suffering significant casualties.
4. Instead of being concerned with losses to the GN-Xs, the leaders focused on the possibility of having mass-produced versions in the near future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45
What tactics? All i remember is some dude shouting peace and beamspamming every grunt suit out there who couldnt use a 10th of a brain to work together and use evasive, defensive and aggresive manuevers. 00 have shown some very grunt/tank style tactics, even tho limited but it has been clearly shown. Its your loss if you didnt see it.
We see the odd tactic from time to time. It's a little more common in Seed, but even in Destiny, we saw stuff like:

- Drawing off escorts to attack main targets.
- Using prepatory artillery to soften a target before the main assault.
- Exploiting weak points to attack a fortification.

And so on. I don't consider them to be particularly impressive, but then again, the same goes for the tactics shown in Gundam 00.


Off-topic:
Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45
No idea... perhaps she was busy and gave me a quick fix. And thx for letting me know im just reading it up now.
Out of curiosity, did you scan that paragraph in or did you retype it?
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Old 2008-03-09, 07:54   Link #453
SuperKnuckles
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I have to agree with the guys who says the tactics in Gundam are rudimentary at best. You really can't expect them to follow our world's conventions, no less the convention of a conventional war. Because both the machines and the wars are fought so unconventionally.

Also, most high tech suits never do seem to have a support system that is evident since they're always used in dire situations. Even with the UN forces, there supposedly aren't many GN Drive units that would be suitable for Gundam support. Which is what Ptolemaios was doing all along.
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Old 2008-03-10, 22:15   Link #454
winter45
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Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
You're sort of misconstruing my reasoning: there are a few elements that suggest that the GN-Xs were considered expendable:

1. They weren't fully tested, and the pilots didn't have much opportunity for seasoning.
2. They weren't given the kind of support (reserves, reconnaissance, etc.) that you'd expect for truly irreplaceable units.
3. They were still sent in despite the high chances of suffering significant casualties.
4. Instead of being concerned with losses to the GN-Xs, the leaders focused on the possibility of having mass-produced versions in the near future.?
These are your hypothesis on the situation doesnt make it accurate or true.

4tran i wont argue point to point. You are having a seperate argument from my core orginal statement. My original statement is that i saw the reason the order of withdrawal which i found within reason, and backed it up with some points. Never once did i say i agreed with it or would of done the same.... Which has led to this back and forth arguments about small things to back up our replies.

Your arguments are based on what you would of done and your belief of been the best course of action. I wont argue you with that. But we both are arguing two differnt things here. So im going to stop.

You have your right to believe that the withdrawl orders is stupid. Im sure an agressive confident officer will agree with you. But this is patrick and his a dick. He doesnt seem to be the type that would stick around for long if his @$$ is getting owned. Thats if he survives long enough to get out in time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
We see the odd tactic from time to time. It's a little more common in Seed, but even in Destiny, we saw stuff like:

- Drawing off escorts to attack main targets.
- Using prepatory artillery to soften a target before the main assault.
- Exploiting weak points to attack a fortification.

And so on. I don't consider them to be particularly impressive, but then again, the same goes for the tactics shown in Gundam 00.
Well thats my loss i didnt see those examples. I just found in 00 the grunts and militaries tactics to be more organic when it came to tactics against the gundums. (to a small degree)


Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Off-topic:

Out of curiosity, did you scan that paragraph in or did you retype it?
I retyped it. Just the prargraph was printed out so had no idea it came from wiki. She told me she was halfway from an emergency to give me a photocopy from a medical book. Havnt been back to base since then.

Last edited by winter45; 2008-03-10 at 23:18.
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Old 2008-03-11, 03:57   Link #455
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
These are your hypothesis on the situation doesnt make it accurate or true.
All of my points are well supported by the show. While you may want to simply characterize my conclusions as a "mere" hypothesis, the logic is pretty clear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
You have your right to believe that the withdrawl orders is stupid. Im sure an agressive confident officer will agree with you. But this is patrick and his a dick. He doesnt seem to be the type that would stick around for long if his @$$ is getting owned. Thats if he survives long enough to get out in time.
Katie was the one who gave the recall order, so Patrick's personality plays no role in the matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
Well thats my loss i didnt see those examples. I just found in 00 the grunts and militaries tactics to be more organic when it came to tactics against the gundums. (to a small degree)
Would you like to elaborate what you mean by this?


Off-topic:
Quote:
Originally Posted by winter45 View Post
I retyped it. Just the prargraph was printed out so had no idea it came from wiki. She told me she was halfway from an emergency to give me a photocopy from a medical book. Havnt been back to base since then.
That's a shame that you had to do all that.
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Old 2008-03-11, 04:16   Link #456
winter45
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Join Date: Apr 2007
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Age: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
All of my points are well supported by the show. While you may want to simply characterize my conclusions as a "mere" hypothesis, the logic is pretty clear.
No comment........

Even if i did i will be wasting my time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Katie was the one who gave the recall order, so Patrick's personality plays no role in the matter.
Ahh your right didnt notice that when watchin it on your tube..... Well that does explain a few more things about her character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Would you like to elaborate what you mean by this?
Meaning i was too awed at kira just beam spamming or athrun having yaoi moments or shinn crying over his sisters cell phone to realise there were some tactics being displayed. So its my loss i didnt see it.

Last edited by winter45; 2008-03-11 at 04:57. Reason: added extra paragraph
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Old 2008-03-14, 19:31   Link #457
JediNight
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Someone probably already stated this about Lockon getting hurt, but:

They probably have some type of auto-sealing mechanism built into the space suit in case of shrapnel wounds. Sort of like run-flat or self-sealing tires on a car. We don't actually see a gaping hole in the helmet glass either, merely stress fracture lines.
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Old 2008-03-17, 08:21   Link #458
StratoSpear
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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Is it just me or does Lockon knows who/what Tieria is actually...? I just watched Menclave subs and I was surprised by that scene.... Lockon knows alot more than he seems to be...
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