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Old 2008-03-17, 04:59   Link #1001
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
True, no arguments there. Oh, can I get a full tranlation of those two for OC purposes?
Sure. When I get home.

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The dust cloud means impact has occured. We did not see any defence. If the impact was guarded by a Defencer, then the Defencer would have been visible prior to impact (meaning, prior to dust cloud, because dust cloud means object has hit), it wasn't, meaning there is no Defencer present.
1) Very good timing, so it activated before impact and was covered by smoke in the 1/30th timeframe.
2) At the scale of the scene, it might even be too thin to be visible.
3) If not appearing = definitely not existing, then by that standard we didn't see the barrier jacket's barrier in that smokecloud either, so it couldn't have protected Fate.

Quote:
*shrug* I never claimed that anyway, so it doesn't bother me. In fact, I'd say that rounds that can pierce levels of concrete that Barrier Jackets can withstand (lets say one layer for convienience) are capable of piercing Barrier Jackets.
Wow, that means that I can bust them with HMGs with armor piercing bullets, 40mm DP-HEAT grenades. Man, they will continue to have real trouble attacking Earth

Anyway, the big problem with the idea of the barrier jacket doing the job of saving Fate in those scenes, which you and tshoryuu keep forgetting is ever the problem of surviving the deceleration. If you insist that the BJ did it, since BJ barriers/fields/whatever are clearly extremely close to the body (there, ATC, I've said one thing about BJs now), the decelerative forces are extremely high. Even if I grant the ridiculous premise of a KE nullifier (say I somehow dump all the KE into deforming the wall/ground), it will not change the fact that Fate decelerated at an extreme G force. Which is to say that she's going to become a splat anyway as her own body squashes itself.

Her only chance is 1) increased decelerative time to reduce loadings or 2) an magicobabble inertial dampener. Tshoryuu has already refused 2 as "fantasy" when Tk proposed it. While I won't categorically refuse 2 (we are dealing with magic and it may indeed turn out upon detailed calculation that 1 won't have enough magnitude to save Fate, forcing the need for 2), it isn't my first choice for similar reasons. So, we are both left with 1. For 1 to be valid, it needs a defense far away from the body - active defense. So given that it is not uncategorically refused by the canon ...

But if 1 is valid, then there is no need for the BJ to have somehow saved Fate through the impact, and thus tshoryuu's examples lose their meaning.
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Old 2008-03-17, 05:23   Link #1002
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post

Her only chance is 1) increased decelerative time to reduce loadings or 2) an magicobabble inertial dampener. Tshoryuu has already refused 2 as "fantasy" when Tk proposed it. While I won't categorically refuse 2 (we are dealing with magic and it may indeed turn out upon detailed calculation that 1 won't have enough magnitude to save Fate, forcing the need for 2), it isn't my first choice for similar reasons. So, we are both left with 1. For 1 to be valid, it needs a defense far away from the body - active defense. So given that it is not uncategorically refused by the canon ...

But if 1 is valid, then there is no need for the BJ to have somehow saved Fate through the impact, and thus tshoryuu's examples lose their meaning.
This is more or less what I've been asking you to state for the last couple of posts. Your stance. In a Nutshell. Simple, and to the point. SHEESH, now was that too hard?

And the best part is, I can look at that now and go "I agree!" without having to cross examine twenty million posts and go "HUH? What the HELL are you getting at?"


As for TK, feh. You misunderstood, and I already explained it to you in IRC.
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Old 2008-03-17, 06:09   Link #1003
tshouryuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Anyway, the big problem with the idea of the barrier jacket doing the job of saving Fate in those scenes, which you and tshoryuu keep forgetting is ever the problem of surviving the deceleration. If you insist that the BJ did it, since BJ barriers/fields/whatever are clearly extremely close to the body (there, ATC, I've said one thing about BJs now), the decelerative forces are extremely high. Even if I grant the ridiculous premise of a KE nullifier (say I somehow dump all the KE into deforming the wall/ground), it will not change the fact that Fate decelerated at an extreme G force. Which is to say that she's going to become a splat anyway as her own body squashes itself.
How it is clear that the fields/barriers are extremely close to the body? As far as I know, all fields have an area of effectiveness. The closer to the center, the more effective it is.

If Fate loses KE, doesn't that mean that the G forces are also reduced as well? Since Fate is the moving object, doesn't losing KE equal losing speed and hence reducing G forces?
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Her only chance is 1) increased decelerative time to reduce loadings or 2) an magicobabble inertial dampener. Tshoryuu has already refused 2 as "fantasy" when Tk proposed it. While I won't categorically refuse 2 (we are dealing with magic and it may indeed turn out upon detailed calculation that 1 won't have enough magnitude to save Fate, forcing the need for 2), it isn't my first choice for similar reasons. So, we are both left with 1. For 1 to be valid, it needs a defense far away from the body - active defense. So given that it is not uncategorically refused by the canon ...

But if 1 is valid, then there is no need for the BJ to have somehow saved Fate through the impact, and thus tshoryuu's examples lose their meaning.
Not true since you're assuming fields are extremely close to the body. Its more likely that fields extend beyond the source. Take for example, Anti Magi-link Fields (AMF). From the StrikerS manga chapter 2 pg 11 for example, its shows a defensive field extended beyond the source.

Offhand I do not remember if we do see other fields in action so I can only use AMF as an example.
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Old 2008-03-17, 07:56   Link #1004
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
If Fate loses KE, doesn't that mean that the G forces are also reduced as well? Since Fate is the moving object, doesn't losing KE equal losing speed and hence reducing G forces?
Fate loses speed now? Explain how you plan to get around Conservation of Momentum.

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Not true since you're assuming fields are extremely close to the body. Its more likely that fields extend beyond the source. Take for example, Anti Magi-link Fields (AMF). From the StrikerS manga chapter 2 pg 11 for example, its shows a defensive field extended beyond the source.

Offhand I do not remember if we do see other fields in action so I can only use AMF as an example.
How about looking at "real life" examples of fields instead of those on explanatory diagrams. Panzergeist is a field, as is the demonstrator red flare that Vita used in Ep7. Not a lot of extension, eh?

Even AMF fields by default are held rather close to the Gadget drones body. they can extend them to try and interfere with other people's magical preparations, but that's a "conscious" move.

And barrier jackets, as far as can be determined, have their defenses even closer. In fact, you can touch each other, as can the wind.
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Old 2008-03-17, 11:24   Link #1005
tshouryuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Fate loses speed now? Explain how you plan to get around Conservation of Momentum.
I ask if losing KE equate to losing speed and hence reducing G-forces. Must you complicate things? A simple yes or no followed by an explanation why to my question would suffice.
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
How about looking at "real life" examples of fields instead of those on explanatory diagrams. Panzergeist is a field, as is the demonstrator red flare that Vita used in Ep7. Not a lot of extension, eh?
First question, where was Panzergeist stated to be a field type defense. Second, what 'demonstrator red flare'? Ep7 of which season and what time?
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Even AMF fields by default are held rather close to the Gadget drones body. they can extend them to try and interfere with other people's magical preparations, but that's a "conscious" move.
"consious" move? When the drones turn it on, AMF spreads over an area. Also how can you tell the AMF are held rather close to the drone's body?
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
And barrier jackets, as far as can be determined, have their defenses even closer. In fact, you can touch each other, as can the wind.
And how did you determine that? Besides it was stated in the manga that fields block certain environmental effects such as temperature. Never was it stated that fields block physical contact.
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Old 2008-03-17, 11:37   Link #1006
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
First question, where was Panzergeist stated to be a field type defense. Second, what 'demonstrator red flare'? Ep7 of which season and what time?
Panzergeist is a Field type defense, compare it to Vita's demonstration of one in StrikerS 6 (Ark meant 6, not 7), around 04:85. The similarities are to great (as in, nearly exact) to write off.
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Old 2008-03-17, 13:22   Link #1007
Kikaifan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Fate loses speed now? Explain how you plan to get around Conservation of Momentum.
Doesn't having something with the Cradle's mass float without wasting everything underneath it already violate conservation of momentum?

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Panzergeist is a Field type defense, compare it to Vita's demonstration of one in StrikerS 6 (Ark meant 6, not 7), around 04:85. The similarities are to great (as in, nearly exact) to write off.
Pretty sure Panzergeist is a barrier according to the StrikerS manga definitions.
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Old 2008-03-17, 14:03   Link #1008
Keroko
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Vita clearly describes it as a Field in StrikerS 6, though.

Good as a time as any to post this one:



Translation?
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Old 2008-03-17, 14:50   Link #1009
Kikaifan
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Vita clearly describes it as a Field in StrikerS 6, though.
Well, unless that description says otherwise my understanding of the distinction between fields and barriers would lead me to conclude that Panzergeist is a barrier, and the similarity with Vita's field is just a case of the animation team reusing the pattern or something.

Of course since drone AMF went from 'plasma lancer is useless' to 'can be penetrated by Midchildan Army grunts' between StrikerS manga and StrikerS maybe I should just forget about what StrikerS manga said about fields...

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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Don't you dare compare the two. One has a clear purpose, Yunno and Vita bashing into each other. The other is a bunch of random streaks and flashes.
I was talking about the zigzagging motion necessary on the parts of the mages for the streaks and flashes to actually be aimed at anything, not the streaks and flashes themselves.

Quote:
There are several possibilities that can be used in combination:
1) Actually analyzing the scene, their speed only comes out to be around 70-100m/s, which is very fast for them, but not impossible. You'll notice they tired of this let's bash each other game after a few seconds (probably because of all the accelerations as they zigged and clashed - the brain can take several hundred Gs transient, but that will make it several - really about time for them to get groggy, and their other organs probably aren't taking it too either).
I'm happy just for the conclusion that they can occasionally see fit to accelerate rapidly and undertake offensive actions more than once every ten seconds.

Though I'm left with the irrelevant but nagging question of what Yuuno is doing his bashing with, and why. I would think you would avoid charging directly at a berserk construct with a magitech hammer that you KNOW just beat down someone with way more magical power and combat experience than you.

Quote:
2) The authors accelerated time for the shots. Time manipulation is never my first choice, but it is always these low detail, few if any sounds scenes that get derailed from the Realtime Throne. Scenes that are timemarked with voices must keep their positions in the timeline.
Definitely possible that they speed things up during the far out-shots. I just like how the 'close-in shots are slow' answer explains the entire phenomenon of 'people sticking around to get hit by beams'. Plus it fits with the large number of melee combat scenes that are obviously in slow motion.

Quote:
3) SoD's Standard Anti-Blooper Defense (Variant): The TSAB canonically has few if any recordings of this battle. Most of the time, we know they can observe magical battles in remarkable visual detail using their Technical Means of Reconnaissance, but this time, such observation means are known to be blocked by a barrier. Thus, the combat details have to be reconstructed or plain imagined without the benefit of raw data, and the recreators took some liberties. This will explain, for example, why in that zigzag sequence they kept freezing for several frames, destroying the time resolution.
...wait, isn't that just a way of transplanting the role of 'the animation team' to an in-universe character or characters so you can use the 'it's the animators' fault' excuse within SoD? Dude, that's sneaky.

But couldn't I just start doing that too, and claim that all of Nanoha as we see it is an in-universe animation created based on Nanoha's exploits? After all, it fits the evidence and explains the inconsistencies really well...

...that's a bit too meta for after midnight, ugh.

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They had a kind of bushido, though.
I'm just saying, if they were fine with artillery, nukes, and armies of automatons (or did the Cradle not come with its drone complement?), you'd think they'd tolerate bullets, and Jail would be familiar with the firearms concept. But I suppose from your PoV all I'm speaking to is writer intent anyway.
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Old 2008-03-17, 16:06   Link #1010
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Hmm... Still insane eh?

Well, I'm rested, and I think I've compiled my idea (after a long IRC conversation with TK last night) for it.


This will not be an attempt to predict what the writers at 7arcs were thinking, but an attempt to take what they've put out, and encompass the inconsistencies in a system that accounts for exceptions.


Pt 1: Construction

A Barrier Jacket is magical clothing that guard and protects mages as a last line of defense. The jacket is formed VIA magical construction during the 'transformation' stage of Mage operation. Once formed, the Jacket becomes a seperate entity from the device that formed it.

The Jacket is composed of visually appealing clothing, defenive focused fields, and barriers.

The Clothing itself does not have any value in the actual defense of the mage. It acts merely as a dress uniform to ensure freedome of movement, identification, and as an indicator of physical damage sustained. It does however, act as an anchor point for the defensive fields and barriers. These physical clothes will stay in place until destroyed physically, or willed away by 'powering down', reguardless of the condition/status of the mage wearing them. Physical defense could be augmented by the placement of actual solid armor on the jacket material, but is not a requirement.

The field(s) of the mage serve as a local area defensive mechanism, working to the tastes of a particular mage as an augmentation. Fields general purposes serve as inertial distribution, filtering, and impact. They are anchored via the jacket clothing to the mage, and are powered directly by the mage.

The barrier provides direct defense against impact trauma. It is a force distributor.

Pt 2: Maganics (Magical Mechanics?)

The Jacket Clothing (Reffered to from here on out simply as The Jacket), is composed of magically formed material ressembling cloth. This material is all but normal, save for probably being made of a kevlar-like fiber, and having an anchoring embedded in it for the fields and barrier. Once formed, it operates independently of the device used to create it. In other words, the Jacket is REAL.

I back this with Subaru. Despite Mach Calibur being damage beyond functionality, her jacket remains, despite her trashed state.


For Fields, there are at least two discernable functions. One is as a filter for the atmosphere as seen in strikers, the other is as an inertial distribution mechanism. While the filter is obvious in function, the I.D. field may need explanation. But this is perfect for what fields are. Fields, by Nanohaverse definition, radiate from a source and fill volume.
By this function, a field is perfect for evenly distributing the effects of an inertia change, especially radical ones. What occures, is that upon a sudden change in direction and velocity (IOW: Sudden Accelleration), the field distributes the altered inertia evenly to all parts of a mage's body, without applying compromsing physical force to the outside, thus allowing the mage to achieve insane accllerations so long as this field is active. A minor problem is that fields gradually decrease in power the further from the source they get.
This WOULD be a problem with a Point Source. But since the field is anchored to the Jacket, the 'source' pretty much encompassas the mage, which means the field has maximum effect on the mage and immediate objects the mage may possess. The other note about fields, is that as a FIELD, you can place several of them in the same volume without problematic interactions, thus, a filter, and inertial dispersion simultaniously.


The barrier, while still simple, is probably the most complicated component.
As stated by discussion on barriers in general, the strength of a barrier is based, not on its power, but by its construction, or should we say, composition.
In this case, most barriers seem to be implied to be solid and inflexible. This would be a bad type of barrier to use in a Jacket. Such a barrier would prevent functional tactile use of the hands on objects outside the mage, or interaction with the environment, without having to be shut off and turned on constantly.

Instead, the Jacket's barrier may actually be constructed in an alternate way to other barriers. This barrier's construction, or what I call Composition, would be more fitting to be elastic in nature. The exact nature of magical energy is unknown, but one could say that barrier construction for jackets has long since become uniform in functionality based on requirement.
In this case, the barrier consists of a flexible magical 'mesh' (This is merely a visualisable term to an energy form, not litteral.) that is flexible, elastic, and compresses. This mesh was designed long ago to deal with the most common element a mage would deal with. Blunt Trauma. Since in general, blunt trauma would be more common than other effects caused by actual combat, even outside of combat, it's like the mage equal to having a hard-hat of sorts.

The elasticity and flexibility of the field gives the mage freedom of movement, and the ability to interact as if it wasn't there, allowing them to operate without the pesky, or even dangerous task of turning it on, and off, and on, and off... over and over during their actions.
However, when experiencing blunt trauma, AKA, impact, the barrier is compressed. The compression of the barrier increases its density, and causes it to distribute that force across its surface, away from the mage as much as possible. The inherent flexibility of the barrier still allows impact to bleed through, but not in the magnitude it was orginially intended.

The weakness comes in the form of non-blunt trauma. Due to the nature of the barrier's construction, it cannot guard so well against actions which slice (tearing force) or stab (Piercing force). These forces do not compress the barrier in the manner which allows it to become dense and distribute the force, and instead, punches through with minimal effort. This would fall into consistancy with the various laccerations, cuts, slices, and stabs mages recieve throughout their combat. These include Fate and Signum's fighting, Nanoha getting stabbed, Erio making it to Nanoha's jacket with Strada, Rein getting sliced by a bug, Erio getting sliced by Sei, Vita getting a Replay on herself of Nanoha getting 'shanked' and other 'lesser' injuries that involve one of the above mentioned forms of injury.


Pt 3: Catastrophic Incidents.

One of the biggest problems now of the Barrier Jacket, is its seemingly superhuman defense of a mage going through an event which quite frankly, should render them a bloody smear. The situation to note is Fate, not once, but TWICE, impacting Reinforced Concrete with the force of an artillery round. This can actually be accounted for as a composite of the propperties and sub-propperties of the Barrier Jacket working together as a whole defense system.

First, and foremost that comes to mind, is impact, into, and through six floors of a reinforced concrete structure. (A building.) If the Barrier on the jacket only compresses and distributes force, how did she withstand impact?
Easy. A backup propperty of the elastic barrier's compression. The Explosive Reaction Thresshold. (Fancy term, think no more of it.) Similar effect has been seen on active defenses, such as Jacket Purge and Barrier Burst... However this one is inherent to the composition (construction) of the barrier.
At a certain compression limit, it is obvious the barrier is not going to be able to distribute the force of the blow around the mage. While the barrier is not sentient, the people who came up with its design, were. It contains a built in limit in which the barrier will 'recoil' or 'snap back' or 'react'... throwing energy into the impact. The discharge, in effect, works in the same light as Explosive Reactive Armor on tanks. If the impact is coming from an object or attack, or otherwise, the effect is knocking that attack off course, slowing it down, and dispersing its energy. If that impact is the result of the ground, or in our case of management, six floors of concrete, the discharge PULVERIZES the impact area... In the case of the concrete, blowing a hole three times as wide as fate is tall in it (estimated), and kicking up a huge dust cloud. The fact that she blew through six floors shows just how much force she struck it with, and how much explosive reactive detonation her barrier dished out before she came to a stop.

The next problem, is accelleration. In the offending scene, face undergoes accelleration equal to being shot out of a canon, twice. First upon being struck by signum, and the second at impact. Surviving accelleration could be tied to her BJ's Inertial distribution field, allowing her to wistand higher accellerations than normal. On top of this, with Fate's specialty being in speed and mobility, she gets bonus points on this field to deal with her rather common high speed accllerations. If this same 'smash' were tried on say Nanoha, her lack of focus on speed enhancement may not have allowed her to withstand those two accellerations the same way Fate did. We cannot test this however. I would put it to say that Fate's Impacts with concrete would be the absolute upper end of the abilities of a jacket to safely protect the mage, and only because she was speciallized did she withstand insane accelleration. I wouldn't suggest trying it on anyone else. The margin for error and catastrophic defense failure is small and has a high price.


Pt 4: Contradictory issues.


Of issues that contradict with the protective ability of the Jackets for things like impacts and falls, there is the implicated issues of mages falling and coming to great harm.

1 - Yuuno saves Nanoha when Fate blindsides her with a photon lancer attack.
2 - Chrono catches himself before hitting the ground after getting a boot to the head by our disguised catgirls.
3 - Caro 'saves' Erio after being thrown off the train.


Of the three instances, one and three stand out the most. In these instances, both 'victims' getting saved were unconcious. It is plausable based on some (admittedly sketchy) reasoning that a mage must be concious to feed magical inergy to the Jacket's defenses (Barrier and Fields), or they simply fizzle out, or fade away, or die out, or whatever. They stop working. Thus, if a mage falls unconcious, they're open to physical attack as much as any mundane person.

The only case of unconcious defense that I can think of that would counter this one, would be Vivio's Saint Armor. However, that being a special genetic trait rather than a standard Barrier Jacket mechanism, can be dismissed as "Not even CLOSE to the same thing."
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Old 2008-03-17, 19:06   Link #1011
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Vita clearly describes it as a Field in StrikerS 6, though.

Good as a time as any to post this one:



Translation?
A magical field defense that Belka Knights, who don't have an Auto-Guard, use to cover themselves. A barrier (Ed: this is the one time they use barrier; guess they hadn't gotten their terminology all down yet...) that covers the whole body, it especially has "overwhelming" defensive ability against magical attacks. At full output, it is a Field strong enough to resist "bombardment" magic, but full power extension expends a lot of energy, and requires a high level of skill to use in real combat.
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Old 2008-03-17, 19:14   Link #1012
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Right, I figure its time for concrete evidence on some parts of the discussion, so I asked the people over at the image thread whether they had the A's DVD booklets. Luckilly DmonHiro had them, so Ark, if you would take the honors of either confirming or otherwise crushing my beliefs on the Signum/Fate barrier clash from episode 7:

Oh yes, forgot to do these two for you:

Panzergeist: The defensive magic that covers Signum. Because it is not possible to cover the whole body while attacking, it is concentrated at a defensive point to deflect Fate's attack.

Defenser Plus: Fate's defensive magic. Rather than blocking, it aims to "slide off" an enemies attack. By concentration at a point, its defensive abilities are increased.
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Old 2008-03-17, 20:13   Link #1013
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
I ask if losing KE equate to losing speed and hence reducing G-forces. Must you complicate things? A simple yes or no followed by an explanation why to my question would suffice.
I'm saying you are not at the point where you are supposed to be asking this question, because now your theory falls afoul of a scientific law. Without clearing it, you can't move on.

Quote:
"consious" move? When the drones turn it on, AMF spreads over an area. Also how can you tell the AMF are held rather close to the drone's body?
See when the bolts hit first in the drill? The simulated extension is small. Then the extension is deliberately expanded to cut off Subaru's wing road.

See also when Vita flings Swallow Fliers at the real thing - the extension is small as well.

Quote:
And how did you determine that? Besides it was stated in the manga that fields block certain environmental effects such as temperature. Never was it stated that fields block physical contact.
By that standard, you can't have it decelerate your mage. Since it only blocks "environmental effects". Generally "impacts" and "acceleration" are not considered "environmental."

Because I'm not a lawyer, I'll give you one chance to rethink this move.
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Old 2008-03-17, 20:36   Link #1014
arkhangelsk
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Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
I'm happy just for the conclusion that they can occasionally see fit to accelerate rapidly and undertake offensive actions more than once every ten seconds.
They are "Flash Moving."

Quote:
Though I'm left with the irrelevant but nagging question of what Yuuno is doing his bashing with, and why. I would think you would avoid charging directly at a berserk construct with a magitech hammer that you KNOW just beat down someone with way more magical power and combat experience than you.
First, Nanoha is not more experienced when it comes to magic than Yunno.

Yunno is probably doing his bashing with a shield. And it makes some sense for him to try and keep Vita reasonably engaged. Since Vita has more power than him, she might suddenly charge up and do a Big Move. By keeping her engaged, he can use his superior skill at barriers to ever so slowly eat up Vita's energy in skirmishes while not letting her charge into a Big Move that will smash through anything he can put up. If he can keep it up long enough, he might just get ahead in the energy curve.

Quote:
Definitely possible that they speed things up during the far out-shots. I just like how the 'close-in shots are slow' answer explains the entire phenomenon of 'people sticking around to get hit by beams'. Plus it fits with the large number of melee combat scenes that are obviously in slow motion.
Psychology vs Physics, hmm? In SoD analysis that's a no brainer - Physics always wins.
Spoiler for SoD:


Quote:
...wait, isn't that just a way of transplanting the role of 'the animation team' to an in-universe character or characters so you can use the 'it's the animators' fault' excuse within SoD? Dude, that's sneaky.
Observant, aren't you? Sometimes I think so too. On the other hand, bloopers do happen in live action film (and of course anime) and SoD has to have some method to account for them. It is not like literary methods do better in this situation.

Also, remember the tenet of SoD. Treat it as if our sources describe real life events. That's how we will dispose of a small amount of contradictory data there too. And this time, we are lucky. We are literally told (SoDwise), that what we see is not up to the usual standards. Usually, we just have to pick from the majority. If something has to get dismissed, guess who goes first.

And if you want sneaky, you already threw away the time data inherent in the film whenever you claim any time manipulation anyway.

Quote:
But couldn't I just start doing that too, and claim that all of Nanoha as we see it is an in-universe animation created based on Nanoha's exploits? After all, it fits the evidence and explains the inconsistencies really well...

...that's a bit too meta for after midnight, ugh.
SoDwise, that might indeed be it. Nevertheless, because it is the only source we have, we'll still do our best to extract data from it, so it will be just like before.

Also, Maximum Data Retention (search for those words).

Quote:
I'm just saying, if they were fine with artillery, nukes, and armies of automatons (or did the Cradle not come with its drone complement?), you'd think they'd tolerate bullets, and Jail would be familiar with the firearms concept. But I suppose from your PoV all I'm speaking to is writer intent anyway.
Automatons who, we notice, went with blades rather than guns. They will rather stealth the gadget rather than give it a gun ...

For all we know, the battle was like the Gungan-TradeFed thing they did in The Phantom Menace, with the Belkans playing the Gungans
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Old 2008-03-17, 22:36   Link #1015
tshouryuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Panzergeist is a Field type defense, compare it to Vita's demonstration of one in StrikerS 6 (Ark meant 6, not 7), around 04:85. The similarities are to great (as in, nearly exact) to write off.
While Panzergeist looks like a field, it may or may not be a field. Just like while imitation diamonds looks like diamonds but they are not diamonds. For the sack of argument, I'll accept its a field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I'm saying you are not at the point where you are supposed to be asking this question, because now your theory falls afoul of a scientific law. Without clearing it, you can't move on.
Sigh.... if you aren't willing to answer or unable to, just don't respond to the question. Is gaining knowledge actually discouraged now? We already establish that I'm a poor student of science. Is it too much to ask a question that I'm not sure of and get an answer and explaination why and in the process tell me how am I violating the scientific law?
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
See when the bolts hit first in the drill? The simulated extension is small. Then the extension is deliberately expanded to cut off Subaru's wing road.

See also when Vita flings Swallow Fliers at the real thing - the extension is small as well.
I wish you could at least mention in which episode you're talking about...
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post

By that standard, you can't have it decelerate your mage. Since it only blocks "environmental effects". Generally "impacts" and "acceleration" are not considered "environmental."

Because I'm not a lawyer, I'll give you one chance to rethink this move.
Here is the question. What actually constitutes environmental effects? You said that impacts and acceleration are generally not considered as environmental effects but that is only your interpretation which may or may not be correct. Also it also might invalidates Panzergeist as a field as well since it blocks magical shots which is also generally not considered an environmental effect as well if going by your interpretation. Despite the translation provided by you, (hope that you don't mind I remain slightly skeptical of your translations) Panzergeist is only described as an defense with the other translation using both field and barrier which really is inconsistent.
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Old 2008-03-17, 22:42   Link #1016
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tshouryuu View Post
Sigh.... if you aren't willing to answer or unable to, just don't respond to the question. Is gaining knowledge actually discouraged now? We already establish that I'm a poor student of science. Is it too much to ask a question that I'm not sure of and get an answer and explaination why and in the process tell me how am I violating the scientific law?
Well to answer your question, I believe ark mentioned Conservation of Momentum.

The law dictates that the momentum from any one object, when transfered, that momentum is equally distributed when a collision occurs, meaning that nothing is lost.

Another way of putting it is using the Conservation of Energy, where in an ideal situation, no energy is lost when something occurs, be it because of a force of a push, or a counter energy to bring the Net Energy to 0.

@Ark: I'm assuming that this was general what you were getting at?
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Old 2008-03-17, 22:57   Link #1017
tshouryuu
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Originally Posted by ghazghkull View Post
Well to answer your question, I believe ark mentioned Conservation of Momentum.

The law dictates that the momentum from any one object, when transfered, that momentum is equally distributed when a collision occurs, meaning that nothing is lost.

Another way of putting it is using the Conservation of Energy, where in an ideal situation, no energy is lost when something occurs, be it because of a force of a push, or a counter energy to bring the Net Energy to 0.

@Ark: I'm assuming that this was general what you were getting at?
Ok, another question. Assuming that no collision occured, but the object is loosing KE, does it still violate said law?
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Old 2008-03-18, 00:54   Link #1018
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
]Pt 2: Maganics (Magical Mechanics?)
Tell you what. I'm still peer-reviewing your article, but I'll just throw out the following parts for you to chew on.

Quote:
The Jacket Clothing (Reffered to from here on out simply as The Jacket), is composed of magically formed material ressembling cloth. This material is all but normal, save for probably being made of a kevlar-like fiber, and having an anchoring embedded in it for the fields and barrier. Once formed, it operates independently of the device used to create it. In other words, the Jacket is REAL.
By "real", do you mean "made of fermions". Anyway, look at Rein, again. Tell me with a straight face that was Kevlar of a useful thickness. I can see lots of body armor makers coming to sue you for defamation

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I back this with Subaru. Despite Mach Calibur being damage beyond functionality, her jacket remains, despite her trashed state.
If it operates independently after formation, then it'll still operate whether it is "real" or "fake" after Mach Caliber goes down.

Quote:
The barrier, while still simple, is probably the most complicated component.
As stated by discussion on barriers in general, the strength of a barrier is based, not on its power, but by its construction, or should we say, composition.
In this case, most barriers seem to be implied to be solid and inflexible. This would be a bad type of barrier to use in a Jacket. Such a barrier would prevent functional tactile use of the hands on objects outside the mage, or interaction with the environment, without having to be shut off and turned on constantly.
Actually, they are designed to be marginally soft. Really hard and you get a shield to "bounce" attacks off with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BJ Construction
Spoiler for space:
Well, it is clear that the defensive complex is soft and nearly useless against blades.

This is really crappy design, though. For one thing, a bullet in this case will have a "piercing force". So it is not likely to stop a bullet. Isn't half the point of this whole discussion an effort on your side's part to find a way to stop a bullet with that BJ? And the design is nearly ineffective against the currently prevalent form of combat? What kind of designers are these morons?

Further, hardness is important even against blunt trauma. Blunt and non-blunt is a continuum. Unless it is so "blunt" that the impact area is the entire shield area, where the mana particles of your barrier goes depends on how soft it is. If the barrier is hard, the particles will compress in place without major lateral displacment, and spread the load through low-displacement elastic strain effects. But the specification this time is for a simulated material soft beyond belief, like normal pressure air (not even compressed air), thus almost all impacts will cause those particles to displace laterally (literally get out of the way like they did with the place). The impact winds up hitting skin.

If the area is wide enough that they don't displace laterally (say a full body impact), you are still screwed with this complex. The very softness and flexibility of this barrier means that it cannot significantly decelerate anything until the barrier is compressed extremely close to skin, when all of a sudden it forms a wall. Short version = your mage is saved from impact from the impactor, only to be smashed into a wall created by the compressed and now hardened barrier.

Spreading out effects will be difficult to implement because of how soft the barrier is - for that softness (non-interference with movement) to be achieved, the bonds between mana particles must be weak to non-existent (think water or gas) - thus, the particles when compressed will act independently, and pressure area from impact stays the same - almost no protection at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Explosive Reactive Barrier
Spoiler for Space:
Oh, brilliant (shudders with laughter). Let's not think for the moment about whether there might just be other explanations for the observation, just this defense's basic feasibility as a full-auto design.
1) Safety: We learn from StrikerS they don't always use barriers to keep people out (and maybe in Midchildra it plain doesn't work as well due to the higher proportion of low-rank mages). Just imagine one civvie, or even your own ally rushing in to save you in the wrong place, and getting annihilated by this uncontrolled, automatic wonder explosive reaction. I wish I'm a better drawer - this is 4koma material...
2) Utility: Thanks to the explosive reaction, the mage is saved from impact with concrete only to suffer impact with his jacket's explosion (reaction force) and since the barrier has blown up (and the jacket's cloth), there's nothing left to protect him from the effects.
3) Given that you've just said the BJ is "cloth" and we've already seen how a windblast from a bug can split one, how a mage can survive with an intact BJ "cloth" from your high energy, high velocity explosive reaction is unclear (remember, barrier's detonated). Of course, that's small potatoes compared to how she survived #2, but nevertheless something to consider.

Frankly, even the "instant hardener" suddenly sounds good compared to this... Even 7Arcs understands that any BJ ERS (which there is, see the barrier jacket exploding in Ep2) must be low velocity and of limited power.
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Old 2008-03-18, 02:06   Link #1019
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Tell you what. I'm still peer-reviewing your article, but I'll just throw out the following parts for you to chew on.



Quote:
By "real", do you mean "made of fermions". Anyway, look at Rein, again. Tell me with a straight face that was Kevlar of a useful thickness. I can see lots of body armor makers coming to sue you for defamation
I said 'probably'. I didn't say it WAS FOR SURE. And I know kevlar is impact ressistant, but sucks against knives.

[quite]If it operates independently after formation, then it'll still operate whether it is "real" or "fake" after Mach Caliber goes down.
Uh, you're repeating what I just said.


Quote:
Actually, they are designed to be marginally soft. Really hard and you get a shield to "bounce" attacks off with.


Quote:
Well, it is clear that the defensive complex is soft and nearly useless against blades.

This is really crappy design, though. For one thing, a bullet in this case will have a "piercing force". So it is not likely to stop a bullet. Isn't half the point of this whole discussion an effort on your side's part to find a way to stop a bullet with that BJ? And the design is nearly ineffective against the currently prevalent form of combat? What kind of designers are these morons?
No, that's THEIR idea that BJs are for combat. I for one, believe that as a last ditch reflex defense, they're more for conventional situations and hazzards. Falling/flying debris, hitting stuff, not designed expressly for combat or to defeat combat level events.. That's why mages use... PIN PON! Actual Barriers and Shields. (Why use them if your so called Last Ditch does it all nicely for you?)

Or in clearer words. BJ's are a defense, but they are not a combat rated defense. Unless someone seriously wants to say the Jacket is made to withstand Vita's hammering. There are some extra features in a jacket that add up and make useful combat level defenses, but only in certain situations. (Like the ERF Recoil we discuss further down.)


Quote:
Further, hardness is important even against blunt trauma. Blunt and non-blunt is a continuum. Unless it is so "blunt" that the impact area is the entire shield area, where the mana particles of your barrier goes depends on how soft it is. If the barrier is hard, the particles will compress in place without major lateral displacment, and spread the load through low-displacement elastic strain effects. But the specification this time is for a simulated material soft beyond belief, like normal pressure air (not even compressed air), thus almost all impacts will cause those particles to displace laterally (literally get out of the way like they did with the place). The impact winds up hitting skin.
For the record, it can, and has been done, where compression can turn a liquid or gel into a solid material when it is hit with a compressive force. Since we're dealing with a level of 'magic'. (Emphasis mine.) It can be said that the behavior of the magic barrier can mimic this to any degree we see fit. It's arbitrary, but with lack of anything better, Arbitrary's the best we got.

Quote:
If the area is wide enough that they don't displace laterally (say a full body impact), you are still screwed with this complex. The very softness and flexibility of this barrier means that it cannot significantly decelerate anything until the barrier is compressed extremely close to skin, when all of a sudden it forms a wall. Short version = your mage is saved from impact from the impactor, only to be smashed into a wall created by the compressed and now hardened barrier.
Not exactly. Since the barrier is anchored to the mage and their accelleration controlling inertial dispersion field, the impact of the barrier against an object and hardening would push them as a whole as it drags the anchor, and with the anchor, the inertial dispersion field. Thus, the point of impact absorbes the force, transfers it into dispersed even momentum across the mage as much as it can via the transfer to pulling the jacket anchoring, and the mage, and dispersing that along the interial dispersion field. This would explain why the mage can take much greater impact forces than any normal human. But even the BJ's system is not perfect. (It still fails to prevent ALL injury.)


Quote:
Spreading out effects will be difficult to implement because of how soft the barrier is - for that softness (non-interference with movement) to be achieved, the bonds between mana particles must be weak to non-existent (think water or gas) - thus, the particles when compressed will act independently, and pressure area from impact stays the same - almost no protection at all.
And since it's magic, we can use handwavium to say the Magic does Funny Things™ At this point. (Because any further examination on a straight scientific basis leads us in circles. We do have to draw the 'Lol MAGIC!' line somewhere when observation breaks down.)

Quote:
Oh, brilliant (shudders with laughter). Let's not think for the moment about whether there might just be other explanations for the observation, just this defense's basic feasibility as a full-auto design.


Quote:
1) Safety: We learn from StrikerS they don't always use barriers to keep people out (and maybe in Midchildra it plain doesn't work as well due to the higher proportion of low-rank mages). Just imagine one civvie, or even your own ally rushing in to save you in the wrong place, and getting annihilated by this uncontrolled, automatic wonder explosive reaction. I wish I'm a better drawer - this is 4koma material...
If someone is hit with enough force to cause the ERF recoil (AKA, the mage being flung with enough force to smash through floors of concerete, who the FUCK is going to survive catching them WITHOUT the effect of the ERF anyway? I think that one is moot. And would be unfortunate Darwin Award at work. (Only a fool actually tries to catch someone falling at lethal velocity in real life.)

Quote:
2) Utility: Thanks to the explosive reaction, the mage is saved from impact with concrete only to suffer impact with his jacket's explosion (reaction force) and since the barrier has blown up (and the jacket's cloth), there's nothing left to protect him from the effects.
Point, but not quite. I said the barrier recoils and throws energy out. The effect is LIKE explosive reactive armor, but it is not the barrier self destructing. We can handwave that since it's magic, it is allowed to do it that way. This leaves the barrier itself still in tact, still pushing on its anchor point, and still transferring accelleration from its 'blast' into momentum of the mage as a whole via the I.D.F.


Quote:
3) Given that you've just said the BJ is "cloth" and we've already seen how a windblast from a bug can split one, how a mage can survive with an intact BJ "cloth" from your high energy, high velocity explosive reaction is unclear (remember, barrier's detonated). Of course, that's small potatoes compared to how she survived #2, but nevertheless something to consider.
See previous response.

Quote:
Frankly, even the "instant hardener" suddenly sounds good compared to this... Even 7Arcs understands that any BJ ERS (which there is, see the barrier jacket exploding in Ep2) must be low velocity and of limited power.
Frankly, you ARE going to have to accept that even when we're discussing functionality, the key word in magic, is MAGIC, and that it obeys some laws, and gives other laws the middle finger. Thermodynamics I can see it always obeying. But magic being well, 'magic'... it can choose (based on the intent of the writers, let's not go there.) to obey or disobey any laws it wishes concerning electromagnetism, gravity, the strong nuclear force, and the weak nuclear force, as it sees fit.

Now, if we were discussing actual explosive reactive armor, I'd agree with you in a pico-second. But not with magic. When we hit a 'Well, how does THAT work then?" moment, that's when we have to look at it, find no possible solution, and go. "Magic does that shit."

So far, I believe my latest incarnation shows the most plausable interactions with regular physics with the fewest handwavium points to date being expressly on the magic side of the arbitrary assignments.

To summarize Handwavium areas

- Barrier composition traits and construction qualities. (We can't argue that it's strictly a particle, or 'conventional' (4 forces) energy, or behaves like either one, since magic has been shown to manipulate both equally well. I'd avoid getting into particle physics past this point on it unless we want to slog through the untestable and end up in a mudfight throwing semantics at each other for kicks.)
- ERF Recoil (We can't directly translate all portions of this effect either way without the exact qualities of the Barrier Jacket in the previous point. Thus, it works because it can.)

No more argument from me in this topic tonight. Past this point I'll start getting 'stupid'.
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Old 2008-03-18, 05:41   Link #1020
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
I said 'probably'. I didn't say it WAS FOR SURE. And I know kevlar is impact ressistant, but sucks against knives.
Now, can we change that "probably" to "probably not"? And it was windblast - impact.

Quote:
Uh, you're repeating what I just said.
What you seemd to be saying is that the jacket is real based on Subaru not going naked after Mach Caliber goes down, but never mind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BJ Shafting
Spoiler for Space:
OK, the battle hasn't even started and the BJ is being shafted way down...

Quote:
For the record, it can, and has been done, where compression can turn a liquid or gel into a solid material when it is hit with a compressive force. Since we're dealing with a level of 'magic'. (Emphasis mine.) It can be said that the behavior of the magic barrier can mimic this to any degree we see fit. It's arbitrary, but with lack of anything better, Arbitrary's the best we got.
Yes, a material's freezing point can indeed vary with pressure - there's no need to treat it as if it is a rare event. However, to have compression and pressure, you need to have them trapped. Otherwise, simple "path of least resistance" says that they are just shoved aside.

Quote:
Not exactly. Since the barrier is anchored to the mage and their accelleration controlling inertial dispersion field, the impact of the barrier against an object and hardening would push them as a whole as it drags the anchor, and with the anchor, the inertial dispersion field. Thus, the point of impact absorbes the force, transfers it into dispersed even momentum across the mage as much as it can via the transfer to pulling the jacket anchoring, and the mage, and dispersing that along the interial dispersion field. This would explain why the mage can take much greater impact forces than any normal human. But even the BJ's system is not perfect. (It still fails to prevent ALL injury.)
Wait, let's ask a question before landing judgment here. How do you plan on "dispersing" the momentum here. How about a diagrammatic showing the forces your inertial dampener plans to inflict.

Quote:
And since it's magic, we can use handwavium to say the Magic does Funny Things? At this point. (Because any further examination on a straight scientific basis leads us in circles. We do have to draw the 'Lol MAGIC!' line somewhere when observation breaks down.)
Handwavium = No answer. (Scribbles grimly into notebook)

Quote:
If someone is hit with enough force to cause the ERF recoil (AKA, the mage being flung with enough force to smash through floors of concerete, who the FUCK is going to survive catching them WITHOUT the effect of the ERF anyway? I think that one is moot. And would be unfortunate Darwin Award at work. (Only a fool actually tries to catch someone falling at lethal velocity in real life.)
How about when Yunno tried to catch Nanoha with a cushion set - he was running towards her. Now imagine if he mistimed the whole thing, and Nanoha hits the ground and sets off the ERF. Bam! He (he doesn't even have his barrier jacket on) gets caught in the blast area and dies, much to the glee of the NanoFates.

For that matter. This will make a nice attack. I kick Opponent 1 right into the ground next to Opponent 2. He blows up like a bomb and takes Opponent 2 with him...

Quote:
Point, but not quite. I said the barrier recoils and throws energy out. The effect is LIKE explosive reactive armor, but it is not the barrier self destructing. We can handwave that since it's magic, it is allowed to do it that way.
Handwave = No answer. (Scribbles grimly in notebook) If it is throwing energy out, how is it not a sacrifice of its own existence? How do you keep the whole barrier from getting caught up in this pressure-sensitive reaction, or have any predictability in what doesn't get blown up.

Quote:
Now, if we were discussing actual explosive reactive armor, I'd agree with you in a pico-second. But not with magic. When we hit a 'Well, how does THAT work then?" moment, that's when we have to look at it, find no possible solution, and go. "Magic does that shit."

So far, I believe my latest incarnation shows the most plausable interactions with regular physics with the fewest handwavium points to date being expressly on the magic side of the arbitrary assignments.
Considering that this "most plausible" theory with "fewest handwavium" involved at least two major handwaves at a low level (three if you count the mere existence of inertial compensation) ... hmm...
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