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Old 2008-03-18, 14:42   Link #1021
Kagerou
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Hey Ark, you do know at one point something will be so blatantly inexplicable that you'll have to use the "it's magic" statement.
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Old 2008-03-18, 15:04   Link #1022
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Yeah, I know what you mean Kagerou. At some point you just have to go "I can't get any further, it's flippin MAGIC."

Which is why despite having all this time to respond this morning, I haven't bothered.

I mean, this is 'MAGICAL' girl Lyrical Nanoha.

I mean, riddle me this Ark.

How does Nanoha fly?
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Old 2008-03-18, 15:16   Link #1023
krisslanza
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kagerou View Post
Hey Ark, you do know at one point something will be so blatantly inexplicable that you'll have to use the "it's magic" statement.
I already said that a looooooong time ago. Ark though seems to take great joy in placing real life laws and logic behind everything. I don't know why myself but hey, if he likes it who am I to stop him?
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Old 2008-03-18, 15:21   Link #1024
ghazghkull
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Yeah, I know what you mean Kagerou. At some point you just have to go "I can't get any further, it's flippin MAGIC."

Which is why despite having all this time to respond this morning, I haven't bothered.

I mean, this is 'MAGICAL' girl Lyrical Nanoha.

I mean, riddle me this Ark.

How does Nanoha fly?
O.o

I hope you know what you're in for LOL

I'm going to bet that Ark is somehow going to rationalise the operation of Axel Fin :3
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Old 2008-03-18, 15:21   Link #1025
Keroko
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Flying is actually easy compared to the big one StrikerS threw up:

How do you revive the dead?
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Old 2008-03-18, 15:22   Link #1026
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Flying is actually easy compared to the big one StrikerS threw up:

How do you revive the dead?
Wait reviving the dead? When did that happen?
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Old 2008-03-18, 15:24   Link #1027
Keroko
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Forgotten Zest so soon?
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Old 2008-03-18, 15:40   Link #1028
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Forgotten Zest so soon?
Oh. Right... Uhhh I swore I didn't...
*cough*
Though if he was literally brought back from the dead wouldn't that violate one of the laws of magic that you can't revive the dead?
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Old 2008-03-18, 15:49   Link #1029
Keroko
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Jail has a habbit of violating laws. Besides, he was using Al Hazardian techniques for a lot of things he was doing, like his self cloning, which also happens to violate a lot of laws (after only a relatively short time a new clone will be born with his memory?).
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Old 2008-03-18, 15:56   Link #1030
krisslanza
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Jail has a habbit of violating laws. Besides, he was using Al Hazardian techniques for a lot of things he was doing, like his self cloning, which also happens to violate a lot of laws (after only a relatively short time a new clone will be born with his memory?).
Hmmm good point. Al Hazard WAS pretty advanced and all... They probably broke a lot of laws.
...
Then they went and blew their planet up. Whoops.
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Old 2008-03-18, 19:02   Link #1031
Wild Goose
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Unless Zest was brain dead? I mean, you can technically die when your heart stops, and be revived by the paddles...
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Old 2008-03-18, 19:16   Link #1032
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
Oh. Right... Uhhh I swore I didn't...
*cough*
Though if he was literally brought back from the dead wouldn't that violate one of the laws of magic that you can't revive the dead?
Here's what I think happened. From Nanoha A's, we learn that linker cores is more than a power generator / convertor. It actually contains at least some memories - otherwise, it'll be impossible to learn any spells from sucking them.

If we assume that linker cores contain the memories and thought patterns of a human, we have a chance. As a S-rank mage, Zest's linker core is powerful, so after his body's death, it stays together a little longer.

So, got the body, got a fairly complete set of memories, even got the Linker Core. Repair the body using genetic cloning, and DL the memories like Precia, and revival (in a sense) becomes possible.
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Old 2008-03-18, 19:52   Link #1033
Kikaifan
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I always assumed he just wasn't being literal...
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Old 2008-03-18, 23:34   Link #1034
Kha
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Technically, using Nanohaverse rules:

Necromancy = NO HELL NO NOT GOING TO HAPPEN NO MATTER WTF!!!

Because of that I was forced to nerf Redemption to a uber heal rather than a downright Resurrection.

In other words, as long as that person is revivable by paddles, the spell would work and bring him back with very little vitality left in him. After that, you have to stabilize him with very powerful heals/extreme life support. And even then, if he/she is supposed to die, there's no way you can stop the bleed.

That's my take on Zest; rather than being a Death Knight, I believed what Jail did was drag him back from the brink, stuffed him with extreme treatments to keep him alive, and made him serve him because he refused to let Zest die. Zest kept going in the end because of Regius and maybe to protect Lu-chan.

Besides, if Resurrection is possible, what's stopping my holy OCs from making Jesus out of everyone?! It'll suddenly make my mains so h4xx, so I'm against reinstatement of Resurrection!!!
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Old 2008-03-19, 00:34   Link #1035
arkhangelsk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Technically, using Nanohaverse rules:

Necromancy = NO HELL NO NOT GOING TO HAPPEN NO MATTER WTF!!!
Technically speaking, this is actually just Chrono's opinion. He could be ... wrong, you know

Anyway, they go into some depth as to WHY magic cannot revive in the light novel, and it basically goes down to the loss of data (presumably memories, which quickly degrade in the brain upon brain death). However, if memories are preserved in the Linker Core, and it hasn't yet dispersed after death, it might indeed be possible to recover it.
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Old 2008-03-19, 00:36   Link #1036
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdmiralTigerclaw View Post
Yeah, I know what you mean Kagerou. At some point you just have to go "I can't get any further, it's flippin MAGIC."

Which is why despite having all this time to respond this morning, I haven't bothered.

I mean, this is 'MAGICAL' girl Lyrical Nanoha.

I mean, riddle me this Ark.

How does Nanoha fly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by krisslanza View Post
I already said that a looooooong time ago. Ark though seems to take great joy in placing real life laws and logic behind everything. I don't know why myself but hey, if he likes it who am I to stop him?
Coming up with a working theory for something helps set limits and predicts it's reaction to various things. Ideally IMO all writers of fantasy or sci-fi should consider there more fantastical elements at length and at least have an idea how they work to avoid contradiction. This is why I dabble in this sort of thing myself I feel that as a writer pondering and formulating theories about this helps keep my writing consistent and can even spawn interesting plot ideas.

Just throwing logic out the window and going "it's magic!" is the path to power creep, contradiction, and incoherence IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ghazghkull View Post
O.o

I hope you know what you're in for LOL

I'm going to bet that Ark is somehow going to rationalise the operation of Axel Fin :3
Gravity manipulation is clearly possible even with tech in Nanoha (see like 10 different sorts of Gadgets and spaceships flying without a mile long radioactive exhaust plume). Such controllable anti-gravity is probably science fictional, but note that word choice this stuff appears all the time in settings with no magic to speak of. I vaguely seem to recall some kind of "flying belt" from some story just off the top of my head.

As an aside I see Tigerclaw has graced this thread with his "reactive armor theory." Ark already seems to have found all the problems with it I did during our discussion in the chat.
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Old 2008-03-19, 01:24   Link #1037
AdmiralTigerclaw
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Flying Belt sounds like SpaceGhost.
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Old 2008-03-19, 01:50   Link #1038
tshouryuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Technically, using Nanohaverse rules:

Necromancy = NO HELL NO NOT GOING TO HAPPEN NO MATTER WTF!!!

Because of that I was forced to nerf Redemption to a uber heal rather than a downright Resurrection.

In other words, as long as that person is revivable by paddles, the spell would work and bring him back with very little vitality left in him. After that, you have to stabilize him with very powerful heals/extreme life support. And even then, if he/she is supposed to die, there's no way you can stop the bleed.

That's my take on Zest; rather than being a Death Knight, I believed what Jail did was drag him back from the brink, stuffed him with extreme treatments to keep him alive, and made him serve him because he refused to let Zest die. Zest kept going in the end because of Regius and maybe to protect Lu-chan.

Besides, if Resurrection is possible, what's stopping my holy OCs from making Jesus out of everyone?! It'll suddenly make my mains so h4xx, so I'm against reinstatement of Resurrection!!!
I thought Resurrection = bring back to life which isn't allowed while Necromancy = corpse animation is possible?
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Old 2008-03-19, 03:07   Link #1039
Kagerou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tk3997 View Post
Coming up with a working theory for something helps set limits and predicts it's reaction to various things. Ideally IMO all writers of fantasy or sci-fi should consider there more fantastical elements at length and at least have an idea how they work to avoid contradiction. This is why I dabble in this sort of thing myself I feel that as a writer pondering and formulating theories about this helps keep my writing consistent and can even spawn interesting plot ideas.

Just throwing logic out the window and going "it's magic!" is the path to power creep, contradiction, and incoherence IMO.
Oh I agree that a lot of it should be at least somewhat explainable. However, there will be something, maybe if there's a fourth season, that will have no justification whatsoever. Perhaps energy-to-matter conversion with no explosion of energy (or is it matter-to-energy, whatever), or the cast surviving in the middle of outer space with no apparent protection (unless a Barrier Jacket now provides oxygen and protects a user from vacuum >.>), or someone literally stops time.

Or maybe we'll come across a long-forgotten part of StrikerS that just makes us seethe with its stupidity (in before the whole damn show ).
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Old 2008-03-19, 03:13   Link #1040
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Originally Posted by Kagerou View Post
Oh I agree that a lot of it should be at least somewhat explainable. However, there will be something, maybe if there's a fourth season, that will have no justification whatsoever. Perhaps energy-to-matter conversion with no explosion of energy (or is it matter-to-energy, whatever), or the cast surviving in the middle of outer space with no apparent protection (unless a Barrier Jacket now provides oxygen and protects a user from vacuum >.>), or someone literally stops time.

Or maybe we'll come across a long-forgotten part of StrikerS that just makes us seethe with its stupidity (in before the whole damn show ).
If that happens, we'll just roll with it and come up with new calculations and explanations, but I don't think it'll be a great problem. The general trend so far is for each season to be more rationalizable and more mundane than the last.
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