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Old 2008-03-17, 12:10   Link #161
Sleepy Speculator
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Did you just read my theory on page 7? I got some more circumstancial evidence/foreshadowings to back it up
Spoiler:
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Old 2008-03-17, 13:24   Link #162
hell88
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Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator View Post
Did you just read my theory on page 7? I got some more circumstancial evidence/foreshadowings to back it up
Spoiler:
Actually I was reading it a few days ago, but I didn't think that up about Clarice until earlier today.

Anyways, yeah joined by souls could have a few meanings. One that comes to mind is that when Clarice is counting the claymores (gravemarkers) she could be related to one of the dead warriors burried there. Another that comes to mind is that she could be related to one of the ghosts. I think it would be really interesting if she was related to Miria.
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Old 2008-03-17, 14:02   Link #163
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Originally Posted by hell88 View Post
Actually I was reading it a few days ago, but I didn't think that up about Clarice until earlier today.



I think it would be really interesting if she was related to Miria.

It would be more interesting if she was related to Clare, or mayble Priscilla
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Old 2008-03-17, 14:16   Link #164
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It would be more interesting if she was related to Clare, or mayble Priscilla
It would be wierd to me if she was related to Clare, mabye because there names are so close to the same. Lol mabye Clare is her aunt. I don't know what to say about Priscilla though because the timeline between Priscilla and Clarice is really far apart. If she's related to Priscilla mabye she has some sort of power up that can beat her.
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Old 2008-03-19, 09:06   Link #165
Sleepy Speculator
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Not many people read this thread i'm sure, but i did think of something else... there is always an assumption that the org/mib are unified in their actions, if they were involved in internal power plays and politics (being near immortal probably brings this out in people) then it could explain some of the motives. Each of the handlers seem to specifically deal with a single claymore, and represents the orgs interests to every claymore, but say their is a power struggle between two handlers and the claymores become weapons to be manipulated, against the rival handler/claymore. Furthermore if the fortunes of the handlers it tied to the claymores then it's in the interest/prestige of the handler to have a higher ranked claymore, thus encouraging duels which don't seem to automatically confer rank/priviledge.
Allow me to infer...
1. Teresa's handler was pissed that she had 'finally done it' (not the org, just the handler maybe.)
2. Rubel seemed 'happy' to handle clare which can't have been very prestigious #47, and then misleads others about her capability
3. He was waiting to recruit her, and must have waited for her to complete her training as well, (ugly duckling analogy obviously leads to a swan) but why/?
4. He warns her about her limits but says 'alright i'll add you to the hit squad' which is what clare wanted, and she get's an awakaned hunt despite her rank, though it's considered a suicide mission to get rid of undesirable elements.
5. The second hunt was suprisingly lacking in other members, ophelia may be able to solo so why such weak backup? Probably not rubel's idea, and yet he smirks as he tells straight faced facts to the skeptical (inner council?).
6. Galatae's handler is full of himself. #3
7. Raphaela #5 seems to be running around without a handler, but we know rubel spoke to her before the others, i don't know what her sensing range is but she must have been pretty close to clare, during her fight with ophelia, to pick up the isolated irene's wherabouts. (What was she doing there?)
8. Clarice is teemed up with miata because she's too unstable to handle alone... #4 rank but can't be handled?
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Old 2008-03-19, 13:06   Link #166
tenken627
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Actually handlers can work with more than one Claymore at the same time. At least I got that impression from Ermita. He is both Galatea's and Miria's handler.

It's clearly evident that Galatea is under Ermita, but you see in the Slasher's Arc that Ermita was the one who led Clare to Miria, Helen, and Deneve. He also says that he'll leave everything in Miria's hands.


Also, I'm not sure, but it seems like Rafaela is under Rubel's command. He was the one who told her about her exile, so I assume that he was her handler at that time. He is the one who brings her back. Rafaela is also with him when he talks to Clare about Pieta. He could be giving both Rafaela and Clare orders around the same time.
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Old 2008-03-19, 14:02   Link #167
Sleepy Speculator
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ha yeah more than likely, but i just can't tell if they are 'regular' handlers as it were, if rubel is handling #5 does that mean he's got a powerful claymore or a disgraced one on his hands? Or does it just mean he can give orders at that particular time? I'm more than willing to bet he wasn't her handler when she was #2. And there's virtually no knowledge on who's handling what in the org, which is what leads me to come up with my speculations. A single handler surely couldn't have much time to spread between 2-3 claymores even if their areas overlap.
But then if that was the case it changes the whole gameplan again. Also how comes raphaela didn't know clare, if they both have the same handler? You'd think at some point they'd have met/figured it out or heard of the other claymore as it were.
Ophelia's handler is also mysteriously absent during her sociopathic stints, unlike teresa's.
Clarice seems to have been given her mission whilst in HQ so we don't know if she even has a handler, or who it is, and yet technically she should have clare's region to patrol? Etc etc.

(The dodgy assumption that rubel is rapheala's full time handler leads to endless questions and speculation that even i can't keep up with)(p.s.your little pic gives me a headache)
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Old 2008-03-19, 16:44   Link #168
tenken627
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Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator View Post
ha yeah more than likely, but i just can't tell if they are 'regular' handlers as it were, if rubel is handling #5 does that mean he's got a powerful claymore or a disgraced one on his hands? Or does it just mean he can give orders at that particular time? I'm more than willing to bet he wasn't her handler when she was #2. And there's virtually no knowledge on who's handling what in the org, which is what leads me to come up with my speculations. A single handler surely couldn't have much time to spread between 2-3 claymores even if their areas overlap.
But then if that was the case it changes the whole gameplan again. Also how comes raphaela didn't know clare, if they both have the same handler? You'd think at some point they'd have met/figured it out or heard of the other claymore as it were.
Ophelia's handler is also mysteriously absent during her sociopathic stints, unlike teresa's.
Clarice seems to have been given her mission whilst in HQ so we don't know if she even has a handler, or who it is, and yet technically she should have clare's region to patrol? Etc etc.

(The dodgy assumption that rubel is rapheala's full time handler leads to endless questions and speculation that even i can't keep up with)(p.s.your little pic gives me a headache)
Well, we know that Rafaela is a special case. Rubel said that exile is very rare. I'm not sure if Rubel being her handler after her readmission is a temporary thing or not. Maybe they only thought of her as a temporary tool that could be useful for a little while. After gaining information about Luciela, Rafaela possibly never intended to stay within the organization. How she is used is different as well, as she seemed to be the MiB's secret enforcer or executioner. Like Alicia/Beth, the organization kept Rafaela pretty much in the dark from everyone else.

As for handlers "handling" two or more Claymores, I'm not sure how it would be done. I can say that the handlers don't seem to be normal humans either, so they might not travel at "human speed" either. They do show up at unexpected times. It's pretty clear that they may have more than one Claymore under their control.

Clarice does have a handler - Rado. He was the one who ordered Clarice to keep watch over Miata.

Rubel - Clare and Rafaela during Luciela's time (possibly over Rafaela during Clare's time)

Ermita - Galatea and Miria

Orsay - Teresa

Rado - Clarice

"Baldy" (don't know the name) - Alicia and Beth


P.S. - I guess my avatar can be a little distracting, maybe I should take it off?
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Old 2008-03-19, 17:08   Link #169
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Originally Posted by tenken627 View Post
P.S. - I guess my avatar can be a little distracting, maybe I should take it off?
The first time I saw your avatar I nearly passed out lol. Don't know why.
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Old 2008-03-19, 18:27   Link #170
Sleepy Speculator
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Thanks for the reply, i get to have an actual discussion for once about my theories, i'll try to clarify my position, i don't think the org gives much in the way of multiple claymores to any single handler, it's like too much power/influence (certainly i wouldn't if i was rimuto?). Since we all assume the org speaks with one voice we assume that any handler dealing with general org business speaks with their full authority, yet the whole set up of the council room or whatever it is speaks of a power relationship between the elevated members sitting down with rimuto? at the centre taking reports from subordinate handlers. Rubel we know handle's clare, but we haven't seen him do regular 'handling' for rapheala, though he may have better control or just be working as a contact with regards to rapheala. Ermita, i'm pretty sure just left things with miria and then dissappeared to spy with galatae? So there's no proof that he's mirias handler. Orsay we know dealt with teresa but has not been seen much since. Rado gave his orders to clarice whilst at HQ and clarice called hiim somehing like 'mr rado' so he could just be an authority amongst many at the HQ, or that could just be because clarice's generally meek behaviour. We've seen rubel deal with rapheala after the whole disaster/problem but we don't know who was in control of her training/handling, i'd assume that it's one handler for a soul link pair. Also who's not to say that rado isn't miata's handler who needed to use a spare claymore lying around for an unpleasant task?

(Okay three weird things with rubel in cognates of paradise, something that had nothing to do with him he observed, gave loads of extra info to galatae, and even told her to 'leave' because of her snooping catching up on her. He told raphaela to go act dead, *and* invited her back by supplying info on luciela)

(The thing with your avatar is, it makes me feel like i'm falling towards the west coast of Wales, and it ain't the falling that's making me queasy but the sensation of going to Wales in perpetuity)
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Old 2008-03-20, 00:10   Link #171
tenken627
what Yagi said
 
 
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Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator View Post
Thanks for the reply, i get to have an actual discussion for once about my theories, i'll try to clarify my position, i don't think the org gives much in the way of multiple claymores to any single handler, it's like too much power/influence (certainly i wouldn't if i was rimuto?). Since we all assume the org speaks with one voice we assume that any handler dealing with general org business speaks with their full authority, yet the whole set up of the council room or whatever it is speaks of a power relationship between the elevated members sitting down with rimuto? at the centre taking reports from subordinate handlers. Rubel we know handle's clare, but we haven't seen him do regular 'handling' for rapheala, though he may have better control or just be working as a contact with regards to rapheala. Ermita, i'm pretty sure just left things with miria and then dissappeared to spy with galatae? So there's no proof that he's mirias handler. Orsay we know dealt with teresa but has not been seen much since. Rado gave his orders to clarice whilst at HQ and clarice called hiim somehing like 'mr rado' so he could just be an authority amongst many at the HQ, or that could just be because clarice's generally meek behaviour. We've seen rubel deal with rapheala after the whole disaster/problem but we don't know who was in control of her training/handling, i'd assume that it's one handler for a soul link pair. Also who's not to say that rado isn't miata's handler who needed to use a spare claymore lying around for an unpleasant task?

(Okay three weird things with rubel in cognates of paradise, something that had nothing to do with him he observed, gave loads of extra info to galatae, and even told her to 'leave' because of her snooping catching up on her. He told raphaela to go act dead, *and* invited her back by supplying info on luciela)

(The thing with your avatar is, it makes me feel like i'm falling towards the west coast of Wales, and it ain't the falling that's making me queasy but the sensation of going to Wales in perpetuity)
Well, if there was only one handler per Claymore, that would mean that there would have to be 47 handlers. 47 handlers for 47 Claymores. That is a lot of handlers, and we don't see nearly that many handlers throughout the series. We only know of maybe 5 of them. That would also mean that there would be time periods where a handler wouldn't have a Claymore since Claymores seem to die or awaken fairly often.

It seems like whenever there is a shot of the MiB council, the same 5 or so handlers are always there. You don't see any other people around except the council (the ones sitting down). Each meeting has only the same 5 or so handlers I've mentioned, and the same 5 or so council members sitting down in attendance. That's about it. Nowhere is the impression that there are 47 handlers, or even 10.

I think that those 5 handlers are it.


LoL, I guess perpetually going to Wales is a bad thing to many people. I'll take off the avatar. I don't want anyone to faint.

Last edited by tenken627; 2008-03-20 at 01:13.
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Old 2008-03-20, 00:51   Link #172
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Yeah, I was thinking 47 handlers might be too much...but still just because we don't see them yet, doesn't mean they aren't there.

However, if there are only a limited number of handlers and MiB...that gives support to the idea they are part of the first experiments, maybe some are from the first generation, while the council precede even them
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Old 2008-03-20, 02:27   Link #173
tenken627
what Yagi said
 
 
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Originally Posted by Simley View Post
Yeah, I was thinking 47 handlers might be too much...but still just because we don't see them yet, doesn't mean they aren't there.

However, if there are only a limited number of handlers and MiB...that gives support to the idea they are part of the first experiments, maybe some are from the first generation, while the council precede even them
It's possible that there are more handlers, but look at every scene inside the MiB's council room.

Chapter 41 - Rubel reports that Clare has been missing

Chapter 61 - The council talks about Pieta

Chapter 68 - Clarice reports that 7 Claymore swords are missing from the graves

Chapter 73 - The council orders Clarice to kill Galatea with Miata

These are the only chapters I can remember with MiB meetings in it.

Every picture shows only 5 handlers. It's not like there are many people in those meetings anyways, just the council sitting on chairs and the 5 handlers. But, it's always the same people. No picture shows anyone else at those meetings. You would think that if there were more than 5 handlers, you would see at least figures or shadows of them in one of those meetings.

Actually, "Baldy" seems to be Orsay, who just has his hood down.

There is Rado, with something on top of the back half of his head.
Orsay, with his bald head, either hooded or unhooded.
Rubel, with his hat and shades.
Ermita, with his face covered except for the eyes.
And the guy with what seems like leather straps across his face.

Everyone else is sitting on a chair.

Last edited by tenken627; 2008-03-20 at 02:39.
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Old 2008-03-20, 04:06   Link #174
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heh yeah, your probably right, but was one of them the guy from cognates in paradise who complained about losing half the org? And i haven't seen the giant guy who collected the absconding teresa from training (and the one in the extra scene of clares's training also looks familiar, but i can't be sure is a different handler/trainer). It looks like their really isn't that many handlers, but if their is 10, then that's 4.7 claymores per handler, way too many, if you don't count the 5 council members sitting on their ass as handling anything inparticular other than org business that's double to 9.4 claymores per handler. I'm thinking the council in staff/sutafu or whatever don't really move about much cos that breaks down communications. I have to admit i'm not the best with faces, i thought the guy with straps looked like one of the AB's in pieta. But simley could also be right, i guess we won't know either way, until we see more proof. (the org is rather shadowy, and they all wear black, which makes it kindof hard to say.)
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Old 2008-03-20, 04:37   Link #175
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Oh and this is another rant very tangentially linked to my theory about clarice in page 7 so it goes in tags.
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Old 2008-03-20, 08:49   Link #176
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From the Special chapter on Miria, Helga and Ophelia, I think Ermita is also Ophelia's handler.

Rubel does seem to be the one to handle special case Claymores, with Raffy and Clare.
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Old 2008-03-20, 13:40   Link #177
tenken627
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Originally Posted by Sleepy Speculator View Post
heh yeah, your probably right, but was one of them the guy from cognates in paradise who complained about losing half the org? And i haven't seen the giant guy who collected the absconding teresa from training (and the one in the extra scene of clares's training also looks familiar, but i can't be sure is a different handler/trainer). It looks like their really isn't that many handlers, but if their is 10, then that's 4.7 claymores per handler, way too many, if you don't count the 5 council members sitting on their ass as handling anything inparticular other than org business that's double to 9.4 claymores per handler. I'm thinking the council in staff/sutafu or whatever don't really move about much cos that breaks down communications. I have to admit i'm not the best with faces, i thought the guy with straps looked like one of the AB's in pieta. But simley could also be right, i guess we won't know either way, until we see more proof. (the org is rather shadowy, and they all wear black, which makes it kindof hard to say.)
I'm not sure who that is. It could be one of the actual council members actually standing up for once. Kind of hard to tell.

The giant guy most likely is one of the Claymore trainers, like the guy with the bandanna that oversaw Clare's final test. Or maybe he just helps trainers. You never see either of them except for around young trainees.
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Old 2008-03-20, 20:20   Link #178
Sleepy Speculator
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Whether the trainers are the same as the Mib's is probably argued elsewhere anyway so i won't push this one further, i can only stretch my speculations and theories so far...
I'll happily go with the multiple claymores per handler theory, despite my original speculation, because it allows me to now sit and think about rubel handling rapheala. (I can't shake the feeling that the mib's are gonna strain themselves with too much work though). If rubel put a number #5 behind clare when she was put against ermita's? number #4 you could call that a wise insurance, no one would know she was their, and thus irene exposed herself before rubel's plan could be enacted... maybe.
Say ermita handles' #3, #4 and #6 for example, he's got a problem because #6 is making him look bad, and miraculously survives because of rubel's supposedly weak #47 addition to the suicide team. He can't send in #3 to finish up because they all survived without awakening. So he gets a joint mission where his #4 can remove that particular obstacle, but she awakens and dies, everyone assumes it ain't #47 that did it. Rubel's #5 was in the area, so he/they have got to make sure, so in goes the #3 to do the job, who disobeiently comes back empty handed, having been observed in an excercise by the #1,#2 pair. Now this looks like a problem so Rubel goes to deal with it himself, (he also can't deny that his missing #47 is alive) and voila she's back in the org like a good girl and off to die in pieta with the rest of the troublemakers/expendable fodder. After the north campaign Ermita's lost his troublesome #6 but also his #3 which is a result of rubel's little chat with her. The number #5 completes both her missions during this time and then dissappears and is presumed dead. See written like this it can make someone look incompetent compared to someone else.

Any constructive comments are as always welcome...

Oh yeah and rubel's handled in one generation a yoki perceiver, and a yoki aligner, and got a yoki manipulator to defect, all according to the org are missing/dead... Two out of the three are now in the same area.
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Old 2008-03-20, 21:02   Link #179
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Something that occurred to me....did Galatea notice Alicia observing Riful? if not...does that mean Riful is a better sensor than Galatea?
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Old 2008-03-20, 21:11   Link #180
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Good question. Riful is super good at sensing youki and even hiding her own. It does not seem like Riful is a youki manipulator but is very gifted at youki sensing. She was able to tell that Priscilla was beyond her power level by just reading her. Isley and Rigard had to lose some limbs to figure it out.

While I think Riful is a very good youki sensor, it is hard to say if she is really better than Galatea for range or reading it. When Riful senses Alicia, Galatea had just been thrown through the ringer with Duff. She had been impaled several times and was barely able to move by the end of the fight. She had really pushed the limit of her youki release as well. A comparison is difficult, but I would say they are both very talented at youki sensing. Neither of them can sense the ghosts.
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