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View Poll Results: Shakugan no Shana II - Episode 22 Rating
Perfect 10 29 29.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 30 30.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 25 25.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 11 11.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.00%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 2 2.00%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 2.00%
Voters: 100. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-03-19, 05:50   Link #241
Eisdrache
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*sigh* People just have WAY to high expectations after season 1, there is just no way to satisfy everyone. If they make a slower episode, people are coming out asking for more fights. If they make an action episode, they come out and complain about Yoshida Kazumi.

I havent read the novels but I am perfectly fine with this episode. The only thing I wonder about is when exactly Yujis mother got pregnant? It was quite suprising, since his father not being home that much. As a side note I loved the how to make babies talk.

And Khamsin is a flame haze? I am at work at the moment so I cant rewatch the episode, but if I remember correctly he called himself an uhmm "accelerator" or something like that in season 1.
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Old 2008-03-19, 07:26   Link #242
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Originally Posted by Eisdrache View Post

And Khamsin is a flame haze? I am at work at the moment so I cant rewatch the episode, but if I remember correctly he called himself an uhmm "accelerator" or something like that in season 1.
I belive so. He was able to fix disturbances in a huge area. He probably is not a strong fighter though. Remember all flame hazes were Tomogaras in the begining . There are diffrent kind of them. We have the fighter type like Sabrac, and techno guy like mad professor. I doubt the Prof. can acctually fight. Probably the same concept is at work here.
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Old 2008-03-19, 08:18   Link #243
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What is that based on? Margery was older than Kazumi when she contracted with Marco, and I'm pretty sure she had experienced a lot more. Kazumi is still a virgin for one
I mean the real world, the one with torches and flame haze and Tomogara. Margery had only seen Silver at that time, while Kazumi has seen numerous fights and Tomogara.

In the end, Kazumi would start 1 foot ahead of Margery at the contracting phase.
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Old 2008-03-19, 08:27   Link #244
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In the end, Kazumi would start 1 foot ahead of Margery at the contracting phase.
And a whole lot of steps behind as far as suitable personality and motivation for such a task goes.

That aside, i am not even sure where this "debate" comes from, as i don't believe there is anything at all to indicate that Kazumi actually would have a chance of becoming one.
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Old 2008-03-19, 09:13   Link #245
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And a whole lot of steps behind as far as suitable personality and motivation for such a task goes.

That aside, i am not even sure where this "debate" comes from, as i don't believe there is anything at all to indicate that Kazumi actually would have a chance of becoming one.
Actually, it makes you think. Yoshida Kazumi is willing to die for Sakai-kun, as she resolved to use that hougu if needed. Being able to die for someone, even if you don't know if you love them back, that's commitment. So, if she were to become a Flame Haze for Sakai-kun's sake, I think she is more than motivated. They could even throw in a cheesy "Love is a more powerful force than hate", showing why Shana and Kazumi are stronger Flame Haze than Margery.

There's an entire possibility of stories here of Kazumi the flame haze. The story of the girl who had incredible abilities at the start, thanks to her inner flame coming from love, a more powerful force.

I guess the debate comes from the similarities between Pheles's hougu devouring power of existance and contracts. Because Pheles basically enters Kazumi's body at that time and uses her past, present, and future.
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Old 2008-03-19, 09:43   Link #246
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Im wondering where the hell this speculation about Kazumi becoming a Flame Haze came from and what evidence is there to even support it? I have seen nothing to even suggest in anyway form or fashion that this could be an outcome. If she did sacrfiice herself for Yuuji then it would just be that a selfless sacrifice.

Although, im hoping it doesnt come to her having to use the the H of death to summon Pheles. Which sucks cause i really want to see Pheles at full strength kicking ass but i dont want to see Kazumi eat it
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Old 2008-03-19, 09:54   Link #247
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Actually, it makes you think. Yoshida Kazumi is willing to die for Sakai-kun, as she resolved to use that hougu if needed. Being able to die for someone, even if you don't know if you love them back, that's commitment. So, if she were to become a Flame Haze for Sakai-kun's sake, I think she is more than motivated. They could even throw in a cheesy "Love is a more powerful force than hate", showing why Shana and Kazumi are stronger Flame Haze than Margery.

There's an entire possibility of stories here of Kazumi the flame haze. The story of the girl who had incredible abilities at the start, thanks to her inner flame coming from love, a more powerful force.
I am not denying it would be possible for her to find such a resolve, however that does not translate to capabilities as flame haze. She may well have resolve to die for Yuuji, but can you picture her rushing towards an enemy, slashing them upside down with a sword and crushing their throats ? Thats what i am talking about - actual combat, which i believe she would be next to useless. She would be a third wheel ... which, admittedly, is not very different from now ^^ (though she would definitely get enhanced in this area i suppose)


Quote:
I guess the debate comes from the similarities between Pheles's hougu devouring power of existance and contracts. Because Pheles basically enters Kazumi's body at that time and uses her past, present, and future.
Thats very very far fetched to say the least. As far as we know, Kazumi would die and Pheles would appear one way or another, which does not really open any doors to becoming a Flame Haze. Furthermore, becoming a flame haze implies contract with the Tomogara. Why would Pheles ever want to do that ? Why would any guze no ou want to contract her ?
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Old 2008-03-19, 10:26   Link #248
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I am not denying it would be possible for her to find such a resolve, however that does not translate to capabilities as flame haze. She may well have resolve to die for Yuuji, but can you picture her rushing towards an enemy, slashing them upside down with a sword and crushing their throats ? Thats what i am talking about - actual combat, which i believe she would be next to useless. She would be a third wheel ... which, admittedly, is not very different from now ^^ (though she would definitely get enhanced in this area i suppose)
Well, if Kazumi were to be contracted by Pheles, she would probably not have a sword. If you think about it, Margery is big into Unrestricted Spells, and Wilhelemina is big into Ribbon battles. Kazumi wouldn't have to be depicted as someone with swords and crushing throats. Since Pheles is wind, Kazumi would probably be using a lot of wind based attacks, focusing her power of existance to slam enemies against walls or something. Pheles, from the little we've seen of her, to me looks like somebody who stays away from the action and fights from a distance, very similar to the personality I can see in Kazumi.




Quote:
Thats very very far fetched to say the least. As far as we know, Kazumi would die and Pheles would appear one way or another, which does not really open any doors to becoming a Flame Haze. Furthermore, becoming a flame haze implies contract with the Tomogara. Why would Pheles ever want to do that ? Why would any guze no ou want to contract her ?
As far as we know, that is true. However, perhaps the Hougou is a contract device, and Pheles lied about it so that she could be sure that Kazumi is really comitted to it.
The reason as to why Pheles would want to make a contract with her is the similarities between them. Tomogara in some way or another have torn them from their love (Sabrac killing Johan, the world of Tomogara putting Yuji is an entirely different world), they both have fought for love, and they both just seeemed to "click".
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Old 2008-03-19, 10:35   Link #249
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Sabrac didn't kill Johan and sorry to break it to you Pheles hates Kazumi.

Also Pheles isn't strong enough to be a suitable Tomogara for a Flame Haze Contract.
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Old 2008-03-19, 11:35   Link #250
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Well, if Kazumi were to be contracted by Pheles, she would probably not have a sword. If you think about it, Margery is big into Unrestricted Spells, and Wilhelemina is big into Ribbon battles. Kazumi wouldn't have to be depicted as someone with swords and crushing throats. Since Pheles is wind, Kazumi would probably be using a lot of wind based attacks, focusing her power of existance to slam enemies against walls or something. Pheles, from the little we've seen of her, to me looks like somebody who stays away from the action and fights from a distance, very similar to the personality I can see in Kazumi.
Actually Pheles primarily uses her fists to fight, so that makes her very up and personal with the opposition. But thats not even the point - whatever power would it be, i can't for the life of me picture Kazumi actually using it to attack something, never mind kill. It doesn't matter what kind of power she has; if she can't utilize it to dispatch her enemies, she is a hindrance in battle. With Kazumi's personality i find it hard to imagine her being anything but pathetic in actual battle.

Quote:
As far as we know, that is true. However, perhaps the Hougou is a contract device, and Pheles lied about it so that she could be sure that Kazumi is really comitted to it.
The reason as to why Pheles would want to make a contract with her is the similarities between them. Tomogara in some way or another have torn them from their love (Sabrac killing Johan, the world of Tomogara putting Yuji is an entirely different world), they both have fought for love, and they both just seeemed to "click".
Its still a very far fetch, and i can't see why Pheles would want to contract anything - that would only make her weaker and dependent on Kazumi, which is the last thing you want to depend on in combat.

Why would she want to contract Kazumi ? What is in it for her ? She isn't looking for a companion on whose shoulder to cry on (besides - she dislikes Kazumi). Nor is Johan fully dead as it seems, and she has her own agenda. Tomogoras (and Flame Haze) are out to kill. Basically with disregard for human life, as that is not their concern. Is Kazumi even remotely capable of that ? Is Pheles even concerned about keeping the world's balance, which is the purpose of Flame Haze ?

In the first place, as far as i can tell, Guze no Ou that form contracts are ones that are interested in keeping the world's balance, but are so strong that their direct presence alone disturbs it. (Alastor true form). That why they form contracts - so they could further their own agenda which would be impossible for them otherwise. They aren't looking for chat buddies. Since Pheles doesn't have those problems (which basically means she is weak compared to Alastor and probably the rest of Guze no Ou of the main cast) why would she have the even slightest of interests in a contract.

Contracts are formed because of need - both parties have an agenda they can't achieve otherwise. And there is no such need for Pheles. I am not even sure there is one for Kazumi, as i don't think she would throw everything away to keep tailing what she knows is unrequited crush.
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Old 2008-03-19, 12:10   Link #251
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Actually Pheles primarily uses her fists to fight, so that makes her very up and personal with the opposition. But thats not even the point - whatever power would it be, i can't for the life of me picture Kazumi actually using it to attack something, never mind kill. It doesn't matter what kind of power she has; if she can't utilize it to dispatch her enemies, she is a hindrance in battle. With Kazumi's personality i find it hard to imagine her being anything but pathetic in actual battle.
Think about that story in like episode 9 about Margery's past. That boy was very similar in that you wouldn't see him fighting, even with his personality. That's why I think Kazumi could become one if she wanted to. Besides, if it was for Sakai-kun, I think she would be able to show some female-garness in battle.


Quote:
Its still a very far fetch, and i can't see why Pheles would want to contract anything - that would only make her weaker and dependent on Kazumi, which is the last thing you want to depend on in combat.

Why would she want to contract Kazumi ? What is in it for her ? She isn't looking for a companion on whose shoulder to cry on (besides - she dislikes Kazumi). Nor is Johan fully dead as it seems, and she has her own agenda. Tomogoras (and Flame Haze) are out to kill. Basically with disregard for human life, as that is not their concern. Is Kazumi even remotely capable of that ? Is Pheles even concerned about keeping the world's balance, which is the purpose of Flame Haze ?
Kazumi would provide a link for Johan and Pheles, as Pheles could always be near him in Yuji. She couldn't just stay around Yuji herself, as she realizes she's not one to be trusted by him. But as a contractor, she'd be more than able to always be with him in some form.
And Pheles in my opinion is concerned about the world's balance, because her lover Johan is. He told her to not eat humans, and they fought against Tomogara together with Wilhelemina, who was definately trying to protect the world's balance.

Quote:
In the first place, as far as i can tell, Guze no Ou that form contracts are ones that are interested in keeping the world's balance, but are so strong that their direct presence alone disturbs it. (Alastor true form). That why they form contracts - so they could further their own agenda which would be impossible for them otherwise. They aren't looking for chat buddies. Since Pheles doesn't have those problems (which basically means she is weak compared to Alastor and probably the rest of Guze no Ou of the main cast) why would she have the even slightest of interests in a contract.

Contracts are formed because of need - both parties have an agenda they can't achieve otherwise. And there is no such need for Pheles. I am not even sure there is one for Kazumi, as i don't think she would throw everything away to keep tailing what she knows is unrequited crush.
Pheles's and Kazumi's needs are the same - love. Pheles cannot be with Johan eternally any other way, and Kazumi cannot become part of Yuji's world without doing this.


Also, I kind of feel bad about talking about this in the Episode 22 thread... Is there any chance my request for a Kazumi thread could get a reconsideration?
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Old 2008-03-19, 12:26   Link #252
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Originally Posted by ChrissieXD View Post
Think about that story in like episode 9 about Margery's past. That boy was very similar in that you wouldn't see him fighting, even with his personality. That's why I think Kazumi could become one if she wanted to. Besides, if it was for Sakai-kun, I think she would be able to show some female-garness in battle.
Pull off a Shana, being a unique Flame Haze that doesn't base the reason behind the contract as vengeance? Perhaps, but even though I don't dislike her, I have to admit that Kazumi makes for a lousy container, unlike Shana, Margery, Wilhelmina or even Khamsin since the one thing in common for all of them is that they are all people who are relatively prominent (a supposed for Shana, since we don't know her origins) whereas Kazumi still strikes me as the type where people don't really know that much about her. Frankly speaking, she won't have much POE to use, and even if she can somehow muster up the courage to really dish it out in a real fight, her opponents will probably outlast her.

Quote:
And Pheles in my opinion is concerned about the world's balance, because her lover Johan is. He told her to not eat humans, and they fought against Tomogara together with Wilhelemina, who was definately trying to protect the world's balance.
I didn't know that. Still, I believe Pheles' real concern is following what her lover says is the best, meaning that Johan's words comes first, while anything else goes behind it.

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Also, I kind of feel bad about talking about this in the Episode 22 thread... Is there any chance my request for a Kazumi thread could get a reconsideration?
OFF-TOPIC: You, my friend, are asking for a thread that will probably contain most of the hate posts and worst bashings in recent history. You up for that?
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Old 2008-03-19, 12:32   Link #253
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Guys, just to give a topic to think about, but don't you think Kazumi's "will to die for Sakai-kun" is indirectly related to Shana actually doing it in S1 Episode 21?
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Old 2008-03-19, 12:49   Link #254
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Guys, just to give a topic to think about, but don't you think Kazumi's "will to die for Sakai-kun" is indirectly related to Shana actually doing it in S1 Episode 21?
It's a little different. While Kazumi is aware and implicitly states her intent countless times, Shana knew nothing about it consciously. The action she took to save Yuuji from getting impaled by Wilhelmina probably came more from the unconscious state of her mind.

In a way, it might be related if (1) Kazumi saw the action itself or (2) she simply has the same thinking as Shana when it came to Yuuji. If that's what you meant by related, that is...
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Old 2008-03-19, 12:53   Link #255
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Think about that story in like episode 9 about Margery's past. That boy was very similar in that you wouldn't see him fighting, even with his personality. That's why I think Kazumi could become one if she wanted to. Besides, if it was for Sakai-kun, I think she would be able to show some female-garness in battle.
Yes, and see how far he got And she would likely have the same fate. Keep in mind that Pheles is weak when compared to the absurd entities that make up the Guze no Ou that our local Flame Haze share. I think its safe to assume that the power of the Tomogara contracted is directly proportional to the power of Flame Haze. Given what they are fighting against, Kazumi would be squished like a bug, even if she manages to fire of a spell by accident. It seems even Shana / Margery/ Wil can't stand up to the leaders of Ball Masque one on one. What on earth would Kazumi do there.

Kazumi is not a fighter, never was and never will be, unless she sees Yuuji mutilated in front of her - she might start wishing for revenge then ... until that happens, i can't see any power she would possessed anything else than wasted, unless we are talking healing or something of the sort. The typical backup character in RPGs, whom everyone fights tooth and nail to protect and that dies as soon as enemy bothers to look at it.

Quote:
Kazumi would provide a link for Johan and Pheles, as Pheles could always be near him in Yuji. She couldn't just stay around Yuji herself, as she realizes she's not one to be trusted by him. But as a contractor, she'd be more than able to always be with him in some form.
And Pheles in my opinion is concerned about the world's balance, because her lover Johan is. He told her to not eat humans, and they fought against Tomogara together with Wilhelemina, who was definately trying to protect the world's balance.
Currently Pheles is concerned about one thing - the task Johan entrusted to her before she left, which was something she couldn't tell Shana and co. And i will bet you a cookie it wasn't to seek a contract with Kazumi. Also, agreeing not to eat humans while she was with Johan does not mean she actually cares about the balance. And if she really wanted to hunt other Tomogaras, she alone would be far more effective then when joined with Kazumi. There is no benefit (that i would know of) in a contract for Tomogara that is weak enough to reside in this world on its own without disturbing it.
Quote:
Pheles's and Kazumi's needs are the same - love. Pheles cannot be with Johan eternally any other way, and Kazumi cannot become part of Yuji's world without doing this.
I feel you are assigning too much desperation to linger near Johan to Pheles. She may well be "desperate" to meet him again, but i can't picture her ever wanting something as superficial of a solution as you proposed. You seem to sugar-coat and simply the whole deal a lot, in my humble opinion (Both regarding Pheles wishes and Kazumi's prospects as a flame haze).

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Also, I kind of feel bad about talking about this in the Episode 22 thread... Is there any chance my request for a Kazumi thread could get a reconsideration?
Ugh, i don't want to imagine having to keep track of such a thread Besides, the series is near the end anyway.
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Old 2008-03-19, 13:16   Link #256
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Ok, I watched ep22. First reaction: "OMG, Ike is still alive??"
I'm still don't like the lack of genre balance, but I'm still looking forward to the ending.
(I think I use "still" too much.)

Sorry for interruption, carry on your business.
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Old 2008-03-19, 15:19   Link #257
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Yes, and see how far he got And she would likely have the same fate.
To be fair, he didn't do that badly. He did manage to beat that steam power Tomogara on his own, he only died because he got caught in the crossfire between the likes of Margery and Sydonay...
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Old 2008-03-19, 15:26   Link #258
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To be fair, he didn't do that badly. He did manage to beat that steam power Tomogara on his own, he only died because he got caught in the crossfire between the likes of Margery and Sydonay...
Yes, but in current situation one would be hard pressed to find anything much weaker than Sydonay lurking around. The cast is clashing horns with the very cream of the crop, and that is unlikely to change anytime soon. So the likes of Sydonay pretty much is what they are encountering right now, and even the experienced Flame Haze seem incapable of standing up to them 1 on 1. And since Pheles is weaker than whatever Guze no Ou had contracted that kid ...
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Old 2008-03-19, 15:41   Link #259
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Yes, but in current situation one would be hard pressed to find anything much weaker than Sydonay lurking around. The cast is clashing horns with the very cream of the crop, and that is unlikely to change anytime soon. So the likes of Sydonay pretty much is what they are encountering right now, and even the experienced Flame Haze seem incapable of standing up to them 1 on 1.
Well yeah. I guess what I mean is that I could potentially see Kazumi as a reasonably effective Flame Haze with the right character progression (I mean look how far Yuji's come), but not one who'd be able to help out much in a battle which involves some of the strongest Flame Haze and Tomogara in the world. This is all hypothetical anyway since I doubt anything like that would happen before the end of the series, but there's no harm in speculating about the possibilities.
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And since Pheles is weaker than whatever Guze no Ou had contracted that kid ...
How do you know that?
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Old 2008-03-19, 15:43   Link #260
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Yes, and see how far he got And she would likely have the same fate. Keep in mind that Pheles is weak when compared to the absurd entities that make up the Guze no Ou that our local Flame Haze share. I think its safe to assume that the power of the Tomogara contracted is directly proportional to the power of Flame Haze. Given what they are fighting against, Kazumi would be squished like a bug, even if she manages to fire of a spell by accident. It seems even Shana / Margery/ Wil can't stand up to the leaders of Ball Masque one on one. What on earth would Kazumi do there.

Kazumi is not a fighter, never was and never will be, unless she sees Yuuji mutilated in front of her - she might start wishing for revenge then ... until that happens, i can't see any power she would possessed anything else than wasted, unless we are talking healing or something of the sort. The typical backup character in RPGs, whom everyone fights tooth and nail to protect and that dies as soon as enemy bothers to look at it.
Keep in mind that the problem with that kid was that he was too immature and rushed into the battle, getting killed in the crossfire. He did manage to kill that clock Tomogara.
I don't think that it's fair at all to judge Kazumi's potential based off of her present power at all. Everyone else is weak before contracting. Look at Shana. She couldn't lay a single hit on that tomogara and eventually needed to use cunning to hit it. She couldn't rely on her skills.
And Kazumi has a fine fighting spirit. She stood up to Shana in the battle of war, knowing full well that Shana has a sword and could kill her easily. Love is a battlefield.


Quote:
Currently Pheles is concerned about one thing - the task Johan entrusted to her before she left, which was something she couldn't tell Shana and co. And i will bet you a cookie it wasn't to seek a contract with Kazumi. Also, agreeing not to eat humans while she was with Johan does not mean she actually cares about the balance. And if she really wanted to hunt other Tomogaras, she alone would be far more effective then when joined with Kazumi. There is no benefit (that i would know of) in a contract for Tomogara that is weak enough to reside in this world on its own without disturbing it.
The benefit in a contract is the lack of need to feed yourself power of existance. You just devour one person, and you're set to go. There also could be hidden benefits revealed. Like, all Tomogara seem to be focused on one style of fighting or another, and have certain abilities and weaknesses. Could becoming a flame haze destroy those weaknesses?
And no, I think as a Tomogara, Pheles doesn't care about the balance at all. But as a lover, she really wants to listen to Johan's desires. That's why she stopped trying to pull him out, that's why she killed him so he could become a mystes, that's why she journeyed with Wilhelemina. Johan desired balance, I pretty sure.


Quote:
I feel you are assigning too much desperation to linger near Johan to Pheles. She may well be "desperate" to meet him again, but i can't picture her ever wanting something as superficial of a solution as you proposed. You seem to sugar-coat and simply the whole deal a lot, in my humble opinion (Both regarding Pheles wishes and Kazumi's prospects as a flame haze).
I probably am sugar coating it a lot. After all, I really don't think this is going to end up happening. I just think it is a possible route to a true and happy end (At least in my mind).

Quote:
And since Pheles is weaker than whatever Guze no Ou had contracted that kid ...
Not necessarily. It is quite possible that the Lord of Guze that contracted her was not interested in becoming a Tomogara. After all, to just be born in the world should require a tremendous amount of POE for any Tomogara, and then they have to maintain their existance.
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