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Old 2008-03-22, 18:26   Link #61
Astrana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiberLibri View Post
You upset the order. It is the authority's side that used violence first. On 14th March, 110 Tibetan priests made a march for independence. The authority used military force to stop them. Four armoured cars were dispatched, one of which run over and killed priests. Then Tibetan people got angry and began the riot. Sorry I cannot find English source; Japanese source here.
Japanese source is worse tha BBC or CNN imo, there was a youtube video made from an austrilian tourist in lahrsa. In his video, there were footage he said it was the first chinese military force getting into tibet. I never saw anything about chinese military running over monks from any news source in Canada yet. If that really happened, BBC and CNN would use that for their front page. I wonder where the Japanese get their source
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Old 2008-03-22, 18:55   Link #62
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*cough*exaggeration*cough*

Amongst the chaos, who knows? But the stories can go either way.

Hate to say it but the Japanese have never been much on good terms with the Chinese. The do have a vested interest to exaggerate stuff.
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Old 2008-03-22, 19:06   Link #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astrana View Post
Japanese source is worse tha BBC or CNN imo, there was a youtube video made from an austrilian tourist in lahrsa. In his video, there were footage he said it was the first chinese military force getting into tibet. I never saw anything about chinese military running over monks from any news source in Canada yet. If that really happened, BBC and CNN would use that for their front page. I wonder where the Japanese get their source
The article of Yomiuri said it had been from a telephone interview; a Yomiuri journalist called directly to a resident in Lhasa. I cannot judge whether it is TRULY reliable or not, nor I can tell BBC and CNN are more reliable than Japanse sources in general on Asian affairs. Possibly you are a well-trained critic on media comparison, though I am not.

By the way, I have never seen the youtuve video, but the remark that "it was the first chinese military force getting into tibet" is clearly false. Chinese People's Liberation Army has intruded there for many times. Major events so far:

1951/Sep: Firstly CPLA conquered Lhasa
1959/Mar: First rebel of Tibetan people; CPLA suppressed it brutally, causing 87 thousands death
1959/Aug: CPLA was deployed along Tibet-India border (so-called Sino-Indian border conflict)
1989/Mar: Second rebel. Hu introduced CPLA again (victims unreported)
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Old 2008-03-22, 19:13   Link #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
Hate to say it but the Japanese have never been much on good terms with the Chinese. The do have a vested interest to exaggerate stuff.
Japanese dumb right-wings and xenophobias might believe so. Not all Japanese media and people. Think separately.

BTW, tell me, which side, pro-Communist and anti-Communist, is called "right-wing" in China? I have been curious for years.
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Old 2008-03-22, 19:24   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiberLibri View Post
The article of Yomiuri said it had been from a telephone interview; a Yomiuri journalist called directly to a resident in Lhasa. I cannot judge whether it is TRULY reliable or not, nor I can tell BBC and CNN are more reliable than Japanse sources in general on Asian affairs. Possibly you are a well-trained critic on media comparison, though I am not.

By the way, I have never seen the youtuve video, but the remark that "it was the first chinese military force getting into tibet" is clearly false. Chinese People's Liberation Army has intruded there for many times. Major events so far:

1951/Sep: Firstly CPLA conquered Lhasa
1959/Mar: First rebel of Tibetan people; CPLA suppressed it brutally, causing 87 thousands death
1959/Aug: CPLA was deployed along Tibet-India border (so-called Sino-Indian border conflict)
1989/Mar: Second rebel. Hu introduced CPLA again (victims unreported)
I think it was refer to the event. But still there is a difference between military force and anti-riot police maintain the force.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=kk27frlLFo0

in this video, you can see the sie of the protest, i think in any country protest with this amount people will require armored police to maintain order or prevent certain things to happen


Quote:
Originally Posted by LiberLibri View Post
Japanese dumb right-wings and xenophobias might believe so. Not all Japanese media and people. Think separately.

BTW, tell me, which side, pro-Communist and anti-Communist, is called "right-wing" in China? I have been curious for years.
I don't think there is a right wing or left wing in China, but back when Mao was still alive Chinese government was separated into 2 side, one was led by Mao's wife and Jiang Qing, and the other side was led by Deng Xiao Ping, Zhou En Lai.

Haven't touched chinese politics for over 10 years, but thats briefly right

Yes I agree, do not stereotype one nation just because of the history. be more reasonable and logical.
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Old 2008-03-22, 19:28   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiberLibri View Post
The article of Yomiuri said it had been from a telephone interview; a Yomiuri journalist called directly to a resident in Lhasa.
Without any corroborating information, it's best to regard such sensational reporting as little more than rumor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiberLibri View Post
I cannot judge whether it is TRULY reliable or not, nor I can tell BBC and CNN are more reliable than Japanse sources in general on Asian affairs.
In general? Yominuri on Asian affairs often isn't particularly reliable unless they are supported by other sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiberLibri View Post
By the way, I have never seen the youtuve video, but the remark that "it was the first chinese military force getting into tibet" is clearly false. Chinese People's Liberation Army has intruded there for many times.
It's not a historical observation, it's in regard to when the protests first began.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiberLibri
BTW, tell me, which side, pro-Communist and anti-Communist, is called "right-wing" in China? I have been curious for years.
Neither really. The right-left dichotomy isn't always in effect; and it isn't in play in China. If we go by the Political Compass, it's more of a difference in the authoritarian-libertarian axis.
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Old 2008-03-22, 20:08   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
Really though...with protests like this what do you expect to come from it? There is no way to respond to "riots" with words. Sometimes violence is unavoidable. And how about looking at it from both sides, where are the pictures of a beaten up policeman? I refuse to believe that casulties wern't suffered on both sides.
If you had bothered to read the article I had linked to, you would have read largely about Tibetans destroying Han-owned businesses and shops and some Han Chinese dieing in fires.
The Chinese government is gladly broadcasting footage of Tibetan violence towards police and Han Chinese, but none of their inhumane riot control methods.

If China's actions really were justifiable in dealing with the Tibetan protests, then why would they bar reporters from the region?

Of course, the nation I reside in, the United States, is just as guilty as China of brutal methods of riot/protest control if you go back just forty years in history.

The only way to stop such things is for people to become aware that such atrocities are occurring, which is the principle job of reporters. Most ordinary Chinese are shown only angry Tibetans who are rebelling against the "generosity" of China. The reality is that China has been occupying Tibet since the 50's against the will of most Tibetans. The Tibetans understandably want their independence which is the mean reason for the protests over there, which have unfortunately erupted into violence.
The Dalai Lama, who has been calling for an end to the violence for days now, is willing to compromise enough to just ask for Tibet's autonomy within China, something like Hong Kong I gather.

If the actions from both sides in Tibet aren't recorded, then nothing will be learned from them, no progress will have been made, and the same violence will most likely occur again like it has in 59 and 89. Reporters need to be allowed more access to such turbulent areas for good change to occur; and China should not be doing anything that they don't want the rest of the world see them do.
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Old 2008-03-22, 20:17   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Astrana View Post
more thing to flame china? I went back to china in 06 and it was already banned
confirmed

http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/...n-China_1.html

it has been blocked since at least 18 Oct 2007. and no inforworld is not manipulated by the CCP.

Why was there news regarding China recently banning it then --> easier to blame the big bad evil commies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle View Post
I personally don't give a damn whether Tibetans want independence or not, but I'm annoyed at the commies sullying the name of my race time and time again, giving the ill-informed westerner more excuses to bash everything Chinese here and there. They are already doing that in the Japanese 2ch forums, which is usually filled by right-wing xenophobic types.
tell those commies to back off from Paracel and Spratly Islands too please . China ninja'ed Paracel Islands from the weaken'ed South Vietnamese force in 1974 :<

Independence is a tough thing to gain from the chinese, my nation Vietnam paid a great price in blood to repel the Chinese invasion force 923742748232 times throughout our history
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Old 2008-03-22, 20:45   Link #69
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@ Astrata & 4Tran

Thanks for answering. While I read Beijing's materials, I noticed Communists love to call their enemies reactionary force (e.g. China's Political Party System, Comrade Mao Zedong's Historical Role and Mao Zedong Thought). For them, those who criticise the government and propose alternative policies are conservative. That is why I wonder which is which.

I have seen several opinions of progressive Chinese. Now I'd like to hear the words of conservative Chinese people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgz View Post
Independence is a tough thing to gain from the chinese, my nation Vietnam paid a great price in blood to repel the Chinese invasion force 923742748232 times throughout our history
You have all my sympathy, though the number seems to be a bit "exaggerated".
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Old 2008-03-22, 20:57   Link #70
Astrana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiberLibri View Post
@ Astrata & 4Tran

Thanks for answering. While I read Beijing's materials, I noticed Communists love to call their enemies reactionary force (e.g. China's Political Party System, Comrade Mao Zedong's Historical Role and Mao Zedong Thought). For them, those who criticise the government and propose alternative policies are conservative. That is why I wonder which is which.

I have seen several opinions of progressive Chinese. Now I'd like to hear the words of conservative Chinese people.
.
No problem, I was born and raised and "brainwashed" by China. I know my government has done some ugly things and has it's bad side, but I still love my country. I was born in 1985 thats when China started to grow, I've experienced alot and I'v seen what has my government done to improve my and my friend's life ( i know some provinces are left out, but common to improve 1.5 billions life is hell of a job and it will have to take time, I believe china is the fastest growing country in the worl right now.) Growing up learning about chinese history and what China has been through, makes me proud to be a Chinese. for me tibet and taiwan are part of China, it really hurts to see the nation split again. But at the same time I am trying to be logical and see things in different side. I just hate how western media are constantly attacking China, instead of focusing on more serious issues in Africa and othe 3rd world country...
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Old 2008-03-22, 21:06   Link #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mgz View Post
confirmed

http://www.infoworld.com/article/07/...n-China_1.html

it has been blocked since at least 18 Oct 2007. and no inforworld is not manipulated by the CCP.

Why was there news regarding China recently banning it then --> easier to blame the big bad evil commies.



tell those commies to back off from Paracel and Spratly Islands too please . China ninja'ed Paracel Islands from the weaken'ed South Vietnamese force in 1974 :<

Independence is a tough thing to gain from the chinese, my nation Vietnam paid a great price in blood to repel the Chinese invasion force 923742748232 times throughout our history
That's old news to what the Middle East do. Ban and lock internet sites from their users so they have control over informations.
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Old 2008-03-22, 21:18   Link #72
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Originally Posted by Aoie_Emesai View Post
That's old news to what the Middle East do. Ban and lock internet sites from their users so they have control over informations.
Don't forget Cuba. The news article of how sneakernet is increasingly getting popular in Cuban underground circles is still fresh in my memory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
*cough*exaggeration*cough*

Amongst the chaos, who knows? But the stories can go either way.

Hate to say it but the Japanese have never been much on good terms with the Chinese. The do have a vested interest to exaggerate stuff.
If you knew how the media in Japan really is, you wouldn't be saying a blanket statement like that.
One of the largest newspaper and broadcast agency Asahi, for example, is well known to be very protective with any news concerning China and its interest. And in many cases, defends the nation even when it seems to go against public (or international) opinion. They are about as biased as FOX is in US, just on a totally diffrent direction.
You're right about media being biased, but if you actually knew how the media is in Japan, you'll realize that bias goes in many diffrent directions.

Unfortunately, I find this thread to be nowhere near as informative or intelligent as ones on Slashdot.
Then again, we are talking politics on an anime forum.
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Old 2008-03-22, 21:27   Link #73
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I know xinhua usually is not the most reliable and independence source of information from China , but in this case western media is also as clueless and manipulated

watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas
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Old 2008-03-22, 21:37   Link #74
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Originally Posted by Mgz View Post
I know xinhua usually is not the most reliable and independence source of information from China , but in this case western media is also as clueless and manipulated

watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSQnK5FcKas
good video, btw which city are u from Mgz
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Old 2008-03-22, 21:50   Link #75
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Quote:
Unfortunately, I find this thread to be nowhere near as informative or intelligent as ones on Slashdot.
Then again, we are talking politics on an anime forum.
LOL!

I surf Slashdot on a daily basis, but discussions there are extremely messy. Yes, there are very good posts now and then, but that site attracts so much damn traffic that the gold is hard to find among such an amount of crap. Especially on the China topic, extreme libertarian-biased America-based opinions tend to garner +5 Insightful in a whim. On AS, on the other hand, political topics attract only a few posters, and most of them are worth listening to. This thread seems to be an exception, though, and I'm afraid that has to do with the high Chinese population ratio in this forum (and in the anime fandom in general), and being China on the center of the issue, it tends to attract more passionate views on the subject.
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Old 2008-03-22, 21:57   Link #76
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I can't believe the OP said that he might be anti-Tibet. Never shall I give him cookies.

First thing I want to make clear: I like China, I really like the Chinese people. But I basically hate the Chinese gov't, as it is currently, and how it has been since the late 1940s.

Anyway, don't listen to what the Chinese say about the Tibetan situation. Ever. They will lie to make it seem like they are monsters, and the Chinese gov't are a bunch of angels.

Tibet used to have a great relationship with China. Tibet has a rich and unique form of Buddhism, and the Dali Lama is a prominent person in this religion. Part of China's and Tibet's former great relationship was the rich spirituality that reciprocated between the two. The Dali Lama is believed to be a great bodhisattva (mahayana Buddhist concept) who was been reborn many times in this world, with the goal to do good for others in the world. One Dali Lama was a Chinese woman, back around 500 years ago. So China and Tibet had a great relationship.

Tibet has a great, rich, and unique culture, with its religion being a big part of it all. The culture and society has been very well rooted in morals and ethics, too. A very wholistic culture.

Well, the Tibetan way of life and culture is in the process of being eradicated. China (the gov't) is totatlly in the wrong. Tibet had an autonomous status, and when Communist rule came to China, the corrupt leaders saw it fit to go into Tibet and occupy the region. They then decided that they can't practice their religion, which is central to Tibetan culture. They took away rights and started forcing their ways of life on them.

They are taking away their rights, destroying their way of life, denying them of their relgion, eradicating their culture, and trying to replace it with the Chinese way of life. They are oppressing these people. The Tibetans never started this conflict, they were never the aggressors, they are victims in this. The Chinese gov't is oppressing them, beating and jailing civilians who protest, beating and jailing monks for peaceful protests (who are pacifists), are trying to eradicate Tibetan culture, and to this date, have demolished well over 6,000 Tibetan Buddhist monastaries. That is like if some country invaded another country and destroyed over 6,000 churches or mosques.

Again, Tibet isn't the aggressor. Why would the Chinese rulers go and do this, then? Because they were an easy target; Tibet wouldn't have been able to put up a fight. They haven't been able to. And Because the rulers wanted in for two reasons: natural resources, and because the area is a good strategic position for China's defenses in the south. Unjustified, and awful.

So no wonder, after decades of oppression, riots break out. Mostly Buddhists there who strive for pacifism, yes; especially the monks. But they are human, too. And when Tibetans act up, the Chinese gov't will try to portray them as bad. Most of the world knows better. When monks loose control and turn violent (again, they are only human like the rest of us), the Chinese gov't will be sure to make it look like they are all out of control, and that the Tibetans are in the wrong (when it really is the Chinese gov't).

Again, for any members here from China, I really like the Chinese. It is the Chinese gov't I don't like, and I really dislike what they done/are doing to Tibet.
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Old 2008-03-22, 22:58   Link #77
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Chinese here, not a fan of Chinese government either.

Look, here's a fact: China is not handling this properly.
On the other hand...

Quote:
The Chinese gov't is oppressing them, beating and jailing civilians who protest, beating and jailing monks for peaceful protests (who are pacifists), are trying to eradicate Tibetan culture, and to this date, have demolished well over 6,000 Tibetan Buddhist monastaries. That is like if some country invaded another country and destroyed over 6,000 churches or mosques.
Like when Japan invaded China!

I mean, that's a bit besides the point, but the bullshit surrounding global perceptions of China and the rest of Eastern Asia is trash. While the rest of Asia was plundered and was suffering, the Western powers decide to help rebuild the aggressor instead of the victims. Nevermind that the Communists first took power because of Japanese aggression and the Western indifference to it.

Oh well, WWIII, I'm ready for ya. Reap what you sow, etc.
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Old 2008-03-22, 23:05   Link #78
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To be completely honest I wouldn't believe either side's story as the whole truth since each side will tell you their version of the story.
It's like in court, both prosecutor and defendant will tell the juror their interpretation and will present you evidence that suits their part. The only thing missing is cross examination which is left for the viewers to decide.

At the moment since the CCP is blocking independent news media to show what is happening we are somewhat left out in the dark except for occasional reports through telephone interviews and fleeing bystanders.This action places CCP's side of the story in a tight corner. In a week or two some photos may come out showing the Tibetian side of the story placing the CCP's version more doubtful. (I stress the MAY point) but that does not mean that the Tibetian side is completely the truth either since if you follow the chain of events that led to riot you'll find a pattern that can only be possible through a coordinated effort. (A demo held in Bejing, and other regions simultaneously. ) This kind of coordination needs a network which leads to funding meaning there is a sponsor behind this whole charade.

As this riot dies down there maybe another one looming in the horizon in Uyghur since their situation is the same as it is in Tibet.

Who is behind it?
I would like to know as much as you but one thing is for sure what come around goes around.
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Old 2008-03-22, 23:10   Link #79
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I dont think western media is "attacking" China by reporting about it. the BBC reports on everything everywhere. That being said I don't expect much of any say from the Yankee govt.

Well just shake our finger and do "tsk tsk you should get your act together" like we always do. Cant do much else scince they make everything we use
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Old 2008-03-22, 23:11   Link #80
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Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
To be completely honest I wouldn't believe either side's story as the whole truth since each side will tell you their version of the story.
It's like in court, both prosecutor and defendant will tell the juror their interpretation and will present you evidence that suits their part. The only thing missing is cross examination which is left for the viewers to decide.

At the moment since the CCP is blocking independent news media to show what is happening we are somewhat left out in the dark except for occasional reports through telephone interviews and fleeing bystanders.This action places CCP's side of the story in a tight corner. In a week or two some photos may come out showing the Tibetian side of the story placing the CCP's version more doubtful. (I stress the MAY point) but that does not mean that the Tibetian side is completely the truth either since if you follow the chain of events that led to riot you'll find a pattern that can only be possible through a coordinated effort. (A demo held in Bejing, and other regions simultaneously. ) This kind of coordination needs a network which leads to funding meaning there is a sponsor behind this whole charade.

As this riot dies down there maybe another one looming in the horizon in Uyghur since their situation is the same as it is in Tibet.

Who is behind it?
I would like to know as much as you but one thing is for sure what come around goes around.
TBH anyone that thinks the Dalai Lama is behind this is smoking some crazy ass stuff.

This isn't "organized" in any way. It's disheveled rioting. It's crazy. Both sides are being victimized, though obviously the Tibetans are being victimized more so.

Asking for independence is stupid. Won't happen. They don't deserve being killed, though.

Either way, of the two sides to trust, you're correct, both are not trustable. But you can bet your ass people are dying out there!
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