AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Nanoha

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2008-03-22, 04:05   Link #1061
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
And I don't know how many times I have to restate that I don't consider the clothing to be part of the defensive complex, beyond that of a generator; it's mentioned that the gems on Nanoha's BJ are field and barrier generators, so the clothing is essentially the generator for the field and barrier. Now I dunno about you, but IIRC it's a scifi convention that generators aren't good at tanking (and this probably has basis in truth: engines and generators can get fucked up easily).
Fine, assume a defensive contribution of zero for the cloth. The principle still applies. If the barrier and fields are hard, it'll have "locked" the cloth, which generates them, in place. IF the barrier and fields protect from windblast ... the cloth and Fate and Rein would be undamaged. And so on.

Quote:
Also, I note something you overlooked: when I said the BJ is like Kevlar, I did not say "Made of Kevlar". I said "like Kevlar" in function. It is the magical equivalent of a Class II Kevlar soft vest, in that it is intended to provide last ditch light protection against magic.
Great, now it is down to providing only magical protection.

Quote:
Isn't that what I've been saying? It protects against collision impact and light magical damage but is vulnerable to cutting and piercing. Take my analogy of the Level II vest. A Level II or a Level I vest is light, and can protect the wearer against collision impact injuries and can be worn a lot easier that a military Level IIIA vest, and can tank a limited pistol rounds, yet can be penetrated by knife stabs. What more swords.
Somehow, I doubt even a L1 can get softer than that fluffy thing that's the BJ

Quote:
And you're not much help. One moment AIs are really smart, then the next you say they're not that smart.
Think of it this way. I'm a miser and I don't like to hand out free brownie points. But if it is b/w a physical violation and brownie points, then deduction forces me to shake loose a few, would it?

Quote:
Also, remember Rein is small. Scale up the bug and her appropriately to human size.
Well, the bug will have to flap harder to stay in the air because volume and mass goes up faster than surface area, but it'll still be a windblast penetrating

Quote:
Will adress in depth later, but I always favored something like the barrier spreading out to be a giant airbrake. I mean, if flying mages can hit the brakes in midair and turn on a dime...

...wait, what about the Barrier and field deploying as an airbag? I mean, airbags autodeploy, they don't deploy manually, and it could be a working solution. BJ deploying a magical airbag. :P
OK, no longer a funky sci-fi device, only an airbag. We are getting very close to an agreement now - we need to generate distance with distant defenses, if we are to save Fate

Now, activation mechanism of airbag. In real life, real airbags have sensors that sense deceleration coming from a side of the car starting to crumple and fires off the airbag. How do you plan to set off the airbag?

And what's so wrong with my idea of it being all the action of a rapidly placed shield? There's no need for a clever activation mechanism because it is all manual, and the distance setting is free, allowing lots of flexibility in how you want to decelerate yourself.

Quote:
And I disagree on this point. When translating, it's best to use a term that conveys the same meaning as much as possible to the audience. In the english-speaking world, the military title of Vice Captain for a ship XO does not exist, thus if the fansub is aimed at an english audience, you need to use a term the audience will get.
Don't assume the Audience is Dumb. I'm sure they can put together Vice (under or assistant) and Captain together and figure it out w/i 500 milliseconds. You did, too.

Quote:
But if it's in english, then god the headaches in keeping it all ngam. *sighs*
I'm sure the intelligent audience can figure out Assistant Section Leader in their minds. Don't make the modern show mistake of assuming the audience is dumb.

Quote:
As for Nanoha's ranks and stuff, I'd always thought that they were 7arcs making new ranks using the JSDF as a basis.
Yes, but it is still creative. There is a perfectly official set of translations for the ranks, yet the 7Arcs staff bravely set out on their own.
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-24, 14:57   Link #1062
Zemyla
Is it can be Azu tiem now
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: myself
Send a message via AIM to Zemyla
This is a distraction from the constant BJ discussion. I had a failed theory. I'm posting it mostly as a cautionary tale.

I had a theory on how it seemed that everyone was speaking the same language, except for the Devices, and how those were still understood even though they spoke a different language.

It involved broadcast telepathy based on the language center of the brain. Basically, when a person speaks, the meaning is broadcast at the same time. This subtle telepathy would be less energy-intensive than true distance telepathy, would work if even only one of the speaker or listener was a mage, and would pass through magical displays. And the Intelligent Devices would be speaking a binary language that was interpreted as real language, with the English or German representing the odd source of the words.

And it explained pretty much everything. Until I remembered Fate's video diaries she sent to Nanoha, Arisa, and Suzuka on normal non-telepathic compact discs. And that blew my theory up like a Starlight Breaker.

So now we're left with people who really speak Japanese even though they're from different planets, and weapons that speak English and German but are understood by normal Japanese people. And I can't think of any other theory to explain it. Can anyone help me with this?
Zemyla is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-25, 06:17   Link #1063
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
Now this is exactly why 'it's a choice made during production' is a valid excuse and avoids needles complication. Simply put: It's an anime, thus the target audience is Japanese and people will need to speak Japanese if the audience is expected to understand it. The various other languages were only added for the 'coolness' factor, perhaps even to hint at cultural backgrounds.

It's like asking why Caro picks apples in the manga even though they're on a vastly different planet, some things you'll just have to shrug and wing it. It avoids headaches.

Back to the Barrier Jacket discussion, DVD screens just came in with the perfect proof I needed for my theories:



A Nanoha-shaped dent in a warships hull. No Raising Heart activated Protection like it was sugested (but unproven) for Fate in A's 2, but purely the Barrier generated by Nanoha's Barrier Jacket.

As it is now proven that Barrier Jackets are able to shield the wearer from impacts that shatter concrete, Fate surviving getting tossed through buildings can now also be atributed to Barrier Jackets instead of 'but we didn't see what happened, so it could have been a Defencer' theories.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-25, 07:27   Link #1064
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Curses scientifically ignorant artists...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
A Nanoha-shaped dent in a warships hull. No Raising Heart activated Protection like it was sugested (but unproven) for Fate in A's 2, but purely the Barrier generated by Nanoha's Barrier Jacket.
1) What Is the Link to Reality? This shot fundamentally does not provide the same reliability as Ep2 in using a foreign material. In Ep2, the fact that it is supposed to be a Terran building locked to reality some assumptions regarding the mechanical properties of the materials. However, with an unknown material (which BTW, Nanoha blasted through without physically hurting Quattro), its strength is "unlocked" relative to reality. What's locked to reality is the survivability of a human. Thus, if you insist there is no active, the mechanical strength of this material will be determined (and thus limited) by the fact that Nanoha (human) survived a denting impact (read: Nanoha had a highly elastic collision, while the wall that's supposedly stronger suffered a highly inelastic collision w/ substantial plastic deformation) with it in a hopelessly thin BJ without (according to you) any hope of active defense buffering the accelerative forces. What this does to the estimated strength of the material is obvious.

I guess this makes sense - making the walls soft. Should any sudden collision at high speed occur in space (collision with uncharted asteroid?), the walls can almost act as cushions to people being thrown through the air

2) Procedural fault: You can't take the end result frame for it. It is like refuting the A's scene by going straight to the part where Fate picks herself out of the dirt. You are supposed to take a series of shots (frame by frame) centered around when Nanoha was thrown into the wall.

3) In fact, if we insist on just taking your frame alone, it actually supports MY theory. An active defense MUST have been involved. Look carefully at the shoulder cloth. Note that the hole actually goes in a contour around the bulge of the cloth. But a BJ complex and cloth is simply too soft for this (we know this from how they keep flapping around in mere wind), and thus, what will have happened is that the cloth will fold around and outwards instead of punching a neat hole in the wall as if it is a one-piece hard shell.

Her hair is another thing that should have yielded to the wall, not acted like it is a one piece hard shell.

Further, since we are talking the cuttable by windblast BJ, it is unlikely it'll have survived the collision so well - the sides that are rubbing against the wall should have torn.

The only way to get that print is to put a hard plate of some sort behind Nanoha that includes the bulges ... an active defense. The other is that the wall is softer and weaker than the BJ (see 1)

Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-03-25 at 07:57. Reason: Reformatted 1: Minor edits
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-25, 10:11   Link #1065
Kha
~ I Do ~
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I guess this makes sense - making the walls soft. Should any sudden collision at high speed occur in space (collision with uncharted asteroid?), the walls can almost act as cushions to people being thrown through the air
...I don't believe cushions meant to do that will get left with cracked dentures on impact.
__________________
Kha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-25, 14:46   Link #1066
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
1) Is that real material? Remember, this is the same pseudomatter crap that was penetrated by Nanoha without causing any real damage to Quattro.

(Yeah, I know what you are thinking, but when the alternative is physics defying, the latitude in rationalizations increase - that's part of SoD too).
So the ocean in S1 is 'pseudomater crap' as well? Magic damage has the physics defying abillity to damage material and yet not harm humans since forever. When Nanoha fired her Starlight Breaker on Fate in S1, there was a huge collum of water, even though Fate was virtually unharmed, same thing aplies here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
2) Procedural fault: You can't take the end result frame for it. It is like refuting the A's scene by going straight to the part where Fate picks herself out of the dirt. You are supposed to take a series of shots (frame by frame) centered around when Nanoha was thrown into the wall.
There is no such scene, unfortunately. That's how the scene starts. However, seeing Vivio's fighting style it is very easy to asume she was either punched or blasted into the wall. No matter how she got there, the point is there was no Protection up to help her out, otherwise we would have had a nice round dent, not a form-fitting one..

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
3) In fact, if we insist on just taking your frame alone, it actually supports MY theory. An active defense MUST have been involved. Look carefully at the shoulder cloth. Note that the hole actually goes in a contour around the bulge of the cloth. But a BJ complex and cloth is simply too soft for this (we know this from how they keep flapping around in mere wind), and thus, what will have happened is that the cloth will fold around and outwards instead of punching a neat hole in the wall as if it is a one-piece hard shell.
Barrier. Jackets. Generate. Barriers.

How often must we say this? It is even stated that the gems on Nanoha's cloth generate Barriers, which you continously choose to ignore. It is those defenses that saved Nanoha. A Protection would have left a round shaped dent in the wall, not a figure hugging one, the only answer is that the Barrier generated by the Barrier Jacket is what saved her. It is not mere cloth that took the hit, I don't know why you keep insisting that cloth is the only thing a Barrier Jacket has, Barrier Jackets generate Field and Barriers, which can take hits normal cloth can't. Scenes like StrikerS 21, 06:37 (where Nanoha ups the powerfeed to her Barrier Jacket to allow her to fight in AMF conditions) show us that those defenses form around the body and cloth.

The clothes flapping in the wind is simply done for animation purposes, it gives the feeling as if they are flying very fast. If the clothes wouldn't flap, the idea of speed is lost. Animation 101.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Further, since we are talking the cuttable by windblast BJ, it is unlikely it'll have survived the collision so well - the sides that are rubbing against the wall should have torn.
And I'm still saying its impossible for a mere puff of wind from a passing bug to tear cloth, that is defying your precious laws of physics itself. Obviously there has to be something that allowed it to cut cloth, even with your logic.
__________________

Last edited by Keroko; 2008-03-25 at 18:42.
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-25, 16:52   Link #1067
Baughn
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
There are plenty of reasons to assume there's active protection on the "cloth", but you're all forgetting something very important:

There exist such things as active materials. It is possible for something that normally appears as fabric to react differently depending on the forces applied to it - behaving like cloth when weak forces (such as wind, or leg movement) are applied, yet becoming as hard as steel when forces that could hurt the wearer are applied. This is something we can do to some degree today with non-newtonian liquids and similar materials, and is being considered for use with bulletproof vests; it'll be well within our abilities for nanostructured materials (consisting, perhaps, of mostly motors) within a few decades. I don't think midchilda would have any problem.

You do eventually end up having to brake the user, though. Given that "magic" is involved the options are almost limitless, but I'd like to draw your attention to a certain scene early in A's where Nanoha decides it's a good idea to crack concrete with her civilian, un-barriered body. She's hurt, but she lives without even broken bones; none of us could say the same. Obviously magicians are just plain hard to break, though we won't know if it's the device or the magic until someone tries to kill Yuuno.
Baughn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-25, 19:17   Link #1068
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
So the ocean in S1 is 'pseudomater crap' as well? Magic damage has the physics defying abillity to damage material and yet not harm humans since forever. When Nanoha fired her Starlight Breaker on Fate in S1, there was a huge collum of water, even though Fate was virtually unharmed, same thing aplies here.
Wow. I had this as my quickie draft, and then I wrote something long in a few minutes. You chose to answer only to my quickie draft even though you took about 7-8 hours to reply?

Let me put it this way. You see me, dressed in a T-shirt, get thrown into what looks like a brick wall and break it unharmed. Are you going to conclude that I cheated and made the thing out of styrofoam or are you going to assume my T-shirt has uber protective powers that saved me? Especially since I wore the same T-shirt that was cut by windblast last week?

Quote:
There is no such scene, unfortunately. That's how the scene starts. However, seeing Vivio's fighting style it is very easy to asume she was either punched or blasted into the wall. No matter how she got there, the point is there was no Protection up to help her out, otherwise we would have had a nice round dent, not a form-fitting one..
Wow.
Option 1: Nanoha created a form fitting defense
Option 2: Nanoha defies physics.

And you choose 2 with glee? Wow...

Quote:
Barrier. Jackets. Generate. Barriers.

How often must we say this? It is even stated that the gems on Nanoha's cloth generate Barriers, which you continously choose to ignore. It is those defenses that saved Nanoha. A Protection would have left a round shaped dent in the wall, not a figure hugging one, the only answer is that the Barrier generated by the Barrier Jacket is what saved her. It is not mere cloth that took the hit, I don't know why you keep insisting that cloth is the only thing a Barrier Jacket has, Barrier Jackets generate Field and Barriers, which can take hits normal cloth can't. Scenes like StrikerS 21, 06:37 (where Nanoha ups the powerfeed to her Barrier Jacket to allow her to fight in AMF conditions) show us that those defenses form around the body and cloth.
I don't know why every person like you insist I only talk about the cloth, when I counted the score for the whole complex. See my replies to Wild Goose on this topic. To put it briefly - if there is one layer in the whole BJ complex that is hard and stiff, it would restrain the other parts and we won't see cloth flap in wind! If there is one physically protective layer, it won't have ripped so easily.

Quote:
The clothes flapping in the wind is simply done for animation purposes, it gives the feeling as if they are flying very fast. If the clothes wouldn't flap, the idea of speed is lost. Animation 101.
So, I'm not allowed to simply ignore scenes like Nanoha slamming into brick as author stupidity and cool, but you are allowed to allow to ignore wind flapping? This is fair

Also, when they draw fighter planes, do they have to make the skin ripple to give the impression of speed?

Quote:
And I'm still saying its impossible for a mere puff of wind from a passing bug to tear cloth, that is defying your precious laws of physics itself. Obviously there has to be something that allowed it to cut cloth, even with your logic.
Given an adequately weak material, it is possible.
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-25, 19:41   Link #1069
Evangelion Xgouki
NERV Personnel
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tokyo 3, Japan
Age: 28
Send a message via AIM to Evangelion Xgouki Send a message via MSN to Evangelion Xgouki
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Wow. I had this as my quickie draft, and then I wrote something long in a few minutes. You chose to answer only to my quickie draft even though you took about 7-8 hours to reply?
...I'm not even going to make a counter-reply to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Let me put it this way. You see me, dressed in a T-shirt, get thrown into what looks like a brick wall and break it unharmed. Are you going to conclude that I cheated and made the thing out of styrofoam or are you going to assume my T-shirt has uber protective powers that saved me? Especially since I wore the same T-shirt that was cut by windblast last week?
Sure, if you want to get slammed into a structure with a T-Shirt on, be my guest . I'm not gonna stop you. Whatever makes you happy I suppose. Now getting slammed into a structure with a Barrier Jacket that has FIELD GENERATORS is another story that generates a FIELD to protect you from physical harm rather than the CLOTH to protect you is another story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I don't know why every person like you insist I only talk about the cloth, when I counted the score for the whole complex. See my replies to Wild Goose on this topic. To put it briefly - if there is one layer in the whole BJ complex that is hard and stiff, it would restrain the other parts and we won't see cloth flap in wind! If there is one physically protective layer, it won't have ripped so easily.
Like any have said before...the Barrier Jacket doesn't protect the wearer, but the FIELD it generates does. The Belkan Barrier Jackets have hard points, i.e. gauntlets because they engage in mostly close-range combat and need it to defend themselves against melee, unlike long-range types like Nanoha who rely on distance and Bombardment-type spells. Although Fate is a Mid-type user, she opted to have a gauntlet on her off-hand because she is a melee combat type.
Evangelion Xgouki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-25, 19:55   Link #1070
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Let me put it this way. You see me, dressed in a T-shirt, get thrown into what looks like a brick wall and break it unharmed. Are you going to conclude that I cheated and made the thing out of styrofoam or are you going to assume my T-shirt has uber protective powers that saved me? Especially since I wore the same T-shirt that was cut by windblast last week?
Eva replied to that one better then I could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Wow.
Option 1: Nanoha created a form fitting defense
Option 2: Nanoha defies physics.

And you choose 2 with glee? Wow...
Slight correction, Option 1 should be 'Barrier Jacket created a form fitting defense' which is the option I'd pick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
I don't know why every person like you insist I only talk about the cloth, when I counted the score for the whole complex. See my replies to Wild Goose on this topic. To put it briefly - if there is one layer in the whole BJ complex that is hard and stiff, it would restrain the other parts and we won't see cloth flap in wind! If there is one physically protective layer, it won't have ripped so easily.
Why do I think that? Because you constantly refer to the Barrier Jacket as 'flimsy cloth' and never mention the Barrier and Field it generates, that's why.

Barriers and Fields are magic, they are not plate armor. They don't restrict movement the way plate armor would.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
So, I'm not allowed to simply ignore scenes like Nanoha slamming into brick as author stupidity and cool, but you are allowed to allow to ignore wind flapping? This is fair
You constantly hammer with Laws of Physics, I figured I'd start hammering back with the Laws of Animation (which, amusingly enough, are a lot easier to apply).

And I did not say anything about 'author stupidity' or 'rule of cool' I was talking about animation techniques. There is a vast difference between the rule of cool and using animation techniques. Flapping cloth gives the idea of speed, just like how drawing lines on a dashing character in a manga makes it apears as if he runs faster, its the illusion of speed that is a requirement during flight scenes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Also, when they draw fighter planes, do they have to make the skin ripple to give the impression of speed?
Not in anime, no. Unless it's a closeup of the engine, then they might do it (this varies per studio, some might do it, others might not. Generally higher budget anime do, especially since the arival of CG.) Fighter plane scenes often use sound as a medium to emphasize speed, or focuss more on the suroundings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Given an adequately weak material, it is possible.
But a tear in cloth because a bug flies by?
__________________

Last edited by Keroko; 2008-03-25 at 20:30.
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-25, 20:07   Link #1071
ghazghkull
The Dang-meister
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Age: 25
Send a message via MSN to ghazghkull Send a message via Yahoo to ghazghkull
Here's the thing, Fields are configured to block certain things. Clothes ripple, because in the air, or rather at least Mid Childa's ear is clean, breathable, and save so there's no need to create a field to protect them from the air, hence why the clothes ripple.

If they were going toxic gas, then the BJ will generate a field that will protect the mages from the gases that could kill them.

Mind you, that's a brief explanation of it.
ghazghkull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-25, 20:40   Link #1072
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evangelion Xgouki View Post
Sure, if you want to get slammed into a structure with a T-Shirt on, be my guest . I'm not gonna stop you. Whatever makes you happy I suppose. Now getting slammed into a structure with a Barrier Jacket that has FIELD GENERATORS is another story that generates a FIELD to protect you from physical harm rather than the CLOTH to protect you is another story.
You mean, getting slammed physically into something with a BJ whose Barrier, Field and Cloth together cannot stop windblast? Be my guest.

The point of the analogy is the Primary Reality Reference Frame. When a mage is smashed into a Terran building, the Reality Reference Frame is the building because it is the least remarkable thing. When a mage is smashed into a Velkan Cradle wall, Reality Reference Frame becomes ... the human mage!

Quote:
Like any have said before...the Barrier Jacket doesn't protect the wearer, but the FIELD it generates does. The Belkan Barrier Jackets have hard points, i.e. gauntlets because they engage in mostly close-range combat and need it to defend themselves against melee, unlike long-range types like Nanoha who rely on distance and Bombardment-type spells. Although Fate is a Mid-type user, she opted to have a gauntlet on her off-hand because she is a melee combat type.
You mean, the field that couldn't stand up to windblast? Sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Slight correction, Option 1 should be 'Barrier Jacket created a form fitting defense' which is the option I'd pick.
Despite the fact we've seen what passes for their "form fitting defense?"

Quote:
Why do I think that? Because you constantly refer to the Barrier Jacket as 'flimsy cloth' that's why.
Versus all the times I counted it as a defensive complex?

Even if I am talking about the cloth, remember that my assessment of it being flimsy will only be possible because all the other layers are no help. For example, if I assess that Rein's BJ cloth has the toughness of a piece of tissue paper, I'll only be able to assess that because the barrier and field working together couldn't protect the cloth. If they can, I would never know that Rein's BJ cloth has the toughness of a piece of tissue paper because the others covered up the weakness.

We can only observe the complex. Thus all we can rate is the complex.

Quote:
Barriers and Fields are magic, they are not plate armor. They don't restrict movement the way plate armor would.
Sure, but the corollary of that is that they are thin and soft, which has consequences of what it protects.

Quote:
You constantly hammer with Laws of Physics, I figured I'd start hammering back with the Laws of Animation (which, amusingly enough, are a lot easier to apply).

And I did not say anything about 'author stupidity' or 'rule of cool' I was talking about animation techniques. There is a vast difference between the rule of cool and using animation techniques. Flapping cloth gives the idea of speed, just like how drawing lines on a dashing character in a manga makes it apears as if he runs faster, its the illusion of speed that is a requirement during flight scenes.
Except that this so called "animation technique" has consequences to SoD reality. (BTW, they aren't always flying when the BJ flaps ... flaps as if it only is a piece of cloth )

Quote:
Not in anime, no. Unless it's a closeup of the engine, then they might do it (this varies per studio, some might do it, others might not. Generally higher budget anime do, especially since the arival of CG.) Fighter plane scenes often use sound as a medium to emphasize speed, or focuss more on the suroundings.
Is that the engine rippling or the engine jetblast? Note that the rest of the plane doesn't flap. This is proof that in general, with hard objects they try something else to represent speed!

Quote:
But a tear in cloth because a bug flies by?
Which should tell you something. Still think it was the lifesaver?
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-26, 07:54   Link #1073
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baughn View Post
There are plenty of reasons to assume there's active protection on the "cloth", but you're all forgetting something very important:

There exist such things as active materials. It is possible for something that normally appears as fabric to react differently depending on the forces applied to it - behaving like cloth when weak forces (such as wind, or leg movement) are applied, yet becoming as hard as steel when forces that could hurt the wearer are applied. This is something we can do to some degree today with non-newtonian liquids and similar materials, and is being considered for use with bulletproof vests; it'll be well within our abilities for nanostructured materials (consisting, perhaps, of mostly motors) within a few decades. I don't think midchilda would have any problem.

You do eventually end up having to brake the user, though. Given that "magic" is involved the options are almost limitless, but I'd like to draw your attention to a certain scene early in A's where Nanoha decides it's a good idea to crack concrete with her civilian, un-barriered body. She's hurt, but she lives without even broken bones; none of us could say the same. Obviously magicians are just plain hard to break, though we won't know if it's the device or the magic until someone tries to kill Yuuno.
This makes sense, actually...

Incidentally, rethinking a bit on the whole issue...

I remember seeing something in Stargate SG-1. Goa'uld personal energy shields stop hi-velocity bullets (well, as high velocity as an MP5 gets, but P90s are hi-velocity by our standards).

And yet can be penetrated by arrows.

I thus propose that the barrier system on the BJ is the same, in that it only activates to protect against high impact and bullets. Otherwise it's tuned to protect mildly against magical attack because that's what the Barriers and Shields are for.

*rolls eyes at everyone* Take this man above's point into account, peoples. Non-barriered, non-jacketed Nanoha surviving such an impact...
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-26, 07:57   Link #1074
PhoenixG
Hi-Eternal
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Backyard of Moriya shrine
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baughn View Post
There are plenty of reasons to assume there's active protection on the "cloth", but you're all forgetting something very important:

There exist such things as active materials. It is possible for something that normally appears as fabric to react differently depending on the forces applied to it - behaving like cloth when weak forces (such as wind, or leg movement) are applied, yet becoming as hard as steel when forces that could hurt the wearer are applied. This is something we can do to some degree today with non-newtonian liquids and similar materials, and is being considered for use with bulletproof vests; it'll be well within our abilities for nanostructured materials (consisting, perhaps, of mostly motors) within a few decades. I don't think midchilda would have any problem.
Did was discussed a little, but then in terms of waters. But that was quickly overshadowed other aspect..... :/
PhoenixG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-26, 08:35   Link #1075
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
I second the motion of Goa'uld-like shields, it makes the most sense, all things concidered.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-26, 08:43   Link #1076
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixG View Post
Did was discussed a little, but then in terms of waters. But that was quickly overshadowed other aspect..... :/
Actually, it was overshadowed because at that point, the main part was to use collisions into buildings to support the notion of bullet resistance. The main problem with this is that (from a physical point of view) even granting such abilities to the BJ, the mage will still die from the sudden deceleration upon building impacts without distant, active defenses.

And Nanoha "cracked" concrete in early A's while in civilian clothing? I don't mind. It is all the more proof that some kind of active defense saved mages from all those impacts more than that thin BJ, just that ... Where is that Scene?

As for G-energy shields. I hadn't done any StarGate, but has the possibility of the arrow being heavier and thus having more momentum been considered as an alternate possibility instead of a simplistic KE analysis to conclude that the shield has been moronically designed to block things without blocking all that is harmful?
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-26, 08:51   Link #1077
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Actually, it was overshadowed because at that point, the main part was to use collisions into buildings to support the notion of bullet resistance. The main problem with this is that (from a physical point of view) even granting such abilities to the BJ, the mage will still die from the sudden deceleration upon building impacts without distant, active defenses.

And Nanoha "cracked" concrete in early A's while in civilian clothing? I don't mind. It is all the more proof that some kind of active defense saved mages from all those impacts more than that thin BJ, just that ... Where is that Scene?
Will look. Quality ain't the best, it's a Triad sub.

Quote:
As for G-energy shields. I hadn't done any StarGate, but has the possibility of the arrow being heavier and thus having more momentum been considered as an alternate possibility instead of a simplistic KE analysis to conclude that the shield has been moronically designed to block things without blocking all that is harmful?
Actually, this could explain why the Volkenritter's weapons work. They're heavier than bullets and thus have more momentum, thus they're better able to push through. Thus, magical attacks, which are primarily energy and are lighter with higher velocity, have less momentum, and thus can be protected against; the same for bullets. Swords and melee weapons then get through due to the higher momentum.

Whaddya know. It works. For this part, at least.
__________________
~Speaking my mind, even when it costs me~
One must forgive one's enemies, but not before they are hanged.Heinrich Heine.

I believe in miracles.

Wild Goose is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-26, 08:55   Link #1078
Kha
~ I Do ~
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 28
I think it's also got something to do with attacks. The ground isn't attacking you when you crash; it's more like you are attacking the ground, and theoretically all you need is to stop yourself then. Insert whatever you wish to explain how this works.

This might be less energetically requiring than defending an attack by another mage trying to kill you and so has premeditatedly charged his attack to better get through your defenses.

Hence why Attack with intent > Jacket > Solid surface. It's just different energy levels.
__________________
Kha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-26, 08:59   Link #1079
arkhangelsk
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Will look. Quality ain't the best, it's a Triad sub.
Everyone uses Triad subs. Don't worry

Quote:
Actually, this could explain why the Volkenritter's weapons work. They're heavier than bullets and thus have more momentum, thus they're better able to push through. Thus, magical attacks, which are primarily energy and are lighter with higher velocity, have less momentum, and thus can be protected against; the same for bullets. Swords and melee weapons then get through due to the higher momentum.
Well, if we saw them blocking bullets, that's how we might have rationalized it. But as it is ... further, by this logic, wind, which is very light, should have very little momentum and be unable to damage a BJ ... oh wait.
arkhangelsk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2008-03-26, 09:09   Link #1080
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
As for G-energy shields. I hadn't done any StarGate, but has the possibility of the arrow being heavier and thus having more momentum been considered as an alternate possibility instead of a simplistic KE analysis to conclude that the shield has been moronically designed to block things without blocking all that is harmful?
Well, concidering tranquilizing darts also manage to bypass Goa'uld shields, no.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:46.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
We use Silk.