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Old 2008-03-26, 10:56   Link #1081
PhoenixG
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Maybe an idea breaking this barrier jacket discussion is to ask some one to translate the articles about BJ in the booklets, cuz IMO this discussion running in circles and trying eating each others tail. :/
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Old 2008-03-26, 18:57   Link #1082
arkhangelsk
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If there is something helpful, it'll have been up already. The problem is the text. For example, it might say the Barrier Jacket "absorbs shock". But of course it does not quantify it, so how much shock it can absorb is estimated using the screen, and we are back to where we started.
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Old 2008-03-27, 05:36   Link #1083
PhoenixG
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Maybe because nobody ask for it to translate it and doesn't know it was in the booklet >.>

Well at least there is a lean way, so you won't be discussing something that is explained, or something that you thought were totally wrong...
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Old 2008-03-27, 05:40   Link #1084
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That's because its often let to the imagination of the viewer, when they say 'really fast' or 'really far' people generally imagine speeds of a jet, or distances of hundreds of meters, or whatever aplies as such to them. They don't exactly count on people who will try to acurately measure speed and distance frame-by-frame.

Back to the matter at hand though, the comparison to Goa'uld shields not only seems the best solution, it also helps us solve yet another mystery:

Why did the Belkan Empire, which thrived in an era where mass-based weaponry was common, have a magic system focussed on melee fighting?

Using Goa'uld shield comparison, we have the answer. If the magic users among the army had armor that could effectively stop bullets, then a small group of mages could wreak havoc on many armies. However, since that armor did not stop melee weapons like blades, the Belkan Empire trained their mages to counter this threat.

It's similar to Knights of the Old Republic. In Knights of the Old Republic, the development of personal shields could make a soldier practically impervious to damage of blasters for a limited amount of time, this meant that the armies who developed these shields could field small comando forces that could decimate entire platoons. However, these shields could not shield against melee weapons, so the enemy was forced to train their soldiers in hand-to-hand and melee combat.
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Old 2008-03-27, 05:59   Link #1085
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That's because its often let to the imagination of the viewer, when they say 'really fast' or 'really far' people generally imagine speeds of a jet, or distances of hundreds of meters, or whatever aplies as such to them. They don't exactly count on people who will try to acurately measure speed and distance frame-by-frame.

Back to the matter at hand though, the comparison to Goa'uld shields not only seems the best solution, it also helps us solve yet another mystery:
Are you sure that a better explanation is not that the tranquilizer dart still has somewhat more mass, plus a much pointier needle head that allowed it to produce a higher local pressure that allowed it to penetrate where a bullet failed?

You can obviously tell that I hate this explanation, at least without a physically logical mechanism (for example, energy-only resistance, weaker to momentum, weaker to pressure are all legitimate).

This is because otherwise, such kind of shields are total plot contrivances. They have no real basis in practical engineering. Their only reason to exist is that the author likes swordfighting and needs something to make it look more sensible. And the soldiers do look more sensible given something like this. The price is that the defense makers look like imbeciles - you simply change the question from "Why don't the solidiers use guns" to "Why don't the shieldmakers create useful defenses against this new threat - it is not like it is physically harder?
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Old 2008-03-27, 06:06   Link #1086
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I'm curious, Ark, so far you've done everything to counter my reasonings, even going as far as claiming things happen in the tinyest of frames to support your reasonings. Now I would like to know, what are Barrier Jackets for, according to you? It is a canonical fact that Barrier Jackets generate Fields and Barriers, what purpose do they serve if not protection? Why are they there?
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Old 2008-03-27, 08:46   Link #1087
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Well, I think it is quite hard to say that they provide much protection physically, but at least so far, we know they do provide protection against gases. It also won't strain physics credibility to say they block energy. They can even block laser light by taking advantage of polarization (it is unlikely the laser's light, which is polarized in a fixed direction, will be of the correct polarization to get through a polarizing barrier).

The BJ did seem to protect Nanoha against Vita's fire magic. Of course, there was probably enough obscuration there to have an active defence, but in the absence of necessity it'll be additional, unjustified complexity.

(However, if in Season 4, a hot pancake starts to melt a Barrier Jacket, we might have to give this a rethink...)

Perhaps this is the real reason why the Belkans weren't annihilated, instead of idiot engineering. By the time they made barrier jackets, everyone has gone "beyond" projectile pea-shooters and are using laser or particle weapons. Note that we see what seems to be particle beams in their Reminiscence of the Past scene, rather than projectile guns like ours. This energy-shielding invention sharply reduced the effectiveness of such weapons.

At the same time, in Velkan society, swords and other melee weapons had been relegated to ceremonial status, a prestige symbol. Then, one day, someone realized that their ceremonial swords can easily slice apart people wearing barrier jackets. Boom, melee society goes up.

Really a little like KOTOR's Energy / Mass sort method, but then, this model is at least justifiable from an engineering viewpoint.
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Old 2008-03-27, 09:03   Link #1088
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However, Fate clearly states that mass-based weaponry was primarely used in those days, no notion of energy based weapons is made (those particle beam weapons too can easilly be canons, and the 'beam' is simply the flare of the shell being fired)

Regardless of that one weapon, fact is that Fate said mass-based weaponry was primarely used.

And if they are made to protect against energy, how come Fate's energy scythe managed to break through Signum's defenses?
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Old 2008-03-27, 09:11   Link #1089
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Originally Posted by arkhangelsk View Post
Are you sure that a better explanation is not that the tranquilizer dart still has somewhat more mass, plus a much pointier needle head that allowed it to produce a higher local pressure that allowed it to penetrate where a bullet failed?
Well, it can't be a pointier needle head, because in another episode O'Neill throws his combat knife into a System Lord's hand (either Apophis or Klorel, most definately not Anubis, Sorak or Ba'al); IIRC what happened was that he whipped out his P90, which shoots very pointy 4.7mm AP rounds, fired, it didn't work, he threw his knife and embedded it in the System Lord's hand. Or did he skip the shooting and throw? It's been a while since I saw that episode, but he definately threw the knife into the System Lord's hand. And the knife blade isn't as pointy as a needle.

Mass is possible but depends on the weight of the dart and the type of dart: time to break out the statistics. Commonly-used Pneudarts darts range from 6-14gs (6 being 1ml, 14 being 5ml, fully loaded). A typical 9mm round is 8-9.5 g. On the other hand .45ACP rounds weren't used (typical weight of a military .45 round is 15 g, which is heavier than a pneudart), so we can't really say for sure it's mass. *shrugs* If they were using reusable Cap-Chur darts, then for sure it's a mass issue; Cap-Chur darts range from 7 g to around 18.5 g, much, much heavier than 9mm or 4.7mm rounds.Still, as I said, how does this not work? Even discounting that we don't see mages deflecting bullets with their BJs, we still see here that the swords and Belkan melee weapons, having greater mass and momentum than beams which are primarily energy with lower mass, penetrating the BJ defensive complex to cut the fabric of the barrier jacket. So how does this not make sense?

Quote:
You can obviously tell that I hate this explanation, at least without a physically logical mechanism (for example, energy-only resistance, weaker to momentum, weaker to pressure are all legitimate).
What about quicksand, which sucks you in faster with the more energy and momentum you use in trying to get out? (Getting this out of the way before someone else says it.)

Anyway, as mentioned above: the tranq darts have greater mass than SMG & PDW rounds. The arrows have greater mass. The KNIFE (a K-bar, IIRC) has greater mass. All went through. Thus it would appear that Goa'uld personal shields, being geared to energy defense, don't do so well against mass weapons.

(Mind you, there's always the possibility that O'Neill's knife went through just because he's that damned badass. It does seem that Stargate has always run on a mix of Sci-fi, plausible science, some applied phlebotium, and TV tropes XD Though I'm actually impressed that they manage to make a fairly cohesive whole with regards to their tech and stuff, unlike Star Trek which is full of contradictions and holes.)

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This is because otherwise, such kind of shields are total plot contrivances. They have no real basis in practical engineering. Their only reason to exist is that the author likes swordfighting and needs something to make it look more sensible. And the soldiers do look more sensible given something like this. The price is that the defense makers look like imbeciles - you simply change the question from "Why don't the solidiers use guns" to "Why don't the shieldmakers create useful defenses against this new threat - it is not like it is physically harder?
Well, the Goa'uld shields were geared to defend against energy weapons. Stargate has little to no swordfighting; what melee combat there is consists of hand to hand fighting, mostly amongst unarmored, unshielded charecters (Goa'uld personal shields are really freakin' rare) or knife fights. And most of the time the Tau'ri are perfectly happy to stay at range and fill people with lead.

And as I mentioned above, this all makes sense. The shields are geared to stop energy. They block bullets due to the lower mass of the bullets, but do not block the greater mass of the arrows or knife or tranq darts.

Thus returning to my analogy, the Barrier Jacket's Barrier is set protect against incoming magical energy, probably lasers or beam weapons, and while it may or may not be penetrable by bullets, swords and melee weapons with a significant amount of mass, inertia and momentum to them (especially when compared to a beamspam attack) can get through this Barrier since the Barrier isn't set to filter these threats.

Whaddya know. Magnum Stake just got THAT more viable. I win.

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Well, I think it is quite hard to say that they provide much protection physically, but at least so far, we know they do provide protection against gases. It also won't strain physics credibility to say they block energy. They can even block laser light by taking advantage of polarization (it is unlikely the laser's light, which is polarized in a fixed direction, will be of the correct polarization to get through a polarizing barrier).

The BJ did seem to protect Nanoha against Vita's fire magic. Of course, there was probably enough obscuration there to have an active defence, but in the absence of necessity it'll be additional, unjustified complexity.

(However, if in Season 4, a hot pancake starts to melt a Barrier Jacket, we might have to give this a rethink...)

Perhaps this is the real reason why the Belkans weren't annihilated, instead of idiot engineering. By the time they made barrier jackets, everyone has gone "beyond" projectile pea-shooters and are using laser or particle weapons. Note that we see what seems to be particle beams in their Reminiscence of the Past scene, rather than projectile guns like ours. This energy-shielding invention sharply reduced the effectiveness of such weapons.

At the same time, in Velkan society, swords and other melee weapons had been relegated to ceremonial status, a prestige symbol. Then, one day, someone realized that their ceremonial swords can easily slice apart people wearing barrier jackets. Boom, melee society goes up.

Really a little like KOTOR's Energy / Mass sort method, but then, this model is at least justifiable from an engineering viewpoint.
*sighs* This is what I was trying to get across. *sighs* That the BJ protects against magic, thus the swords and the like can get through it. While my original idea of being lower velocity didn't make the cut, the fact that we now have a viable theory means it's all worth it...

*looks up*

...Oi, this is essentially what I was saying! Minus the historical speculations!

EDIT: Damnit Keroko! Let a man reply first! *reads Keroko's post*

*headdesk* AARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! It's a motherfscking MAGICAL GIRL SHOW, STOP THINKING ABOUT IT SO MUCH!!! ALL OF YOU!

[Wild Goose has reached his limit and must be sedated.]
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Old 2008-03-27, 09:28   Link #1090
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
EDIT: Damnit Keroko! Let a man reply first! *reads Keroko's post*

*headdesk* AARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!! It's a motherfscking MAGICAL GIRL SHOW, STOP THINKING ABOUT IT SO MUCH!!! ALL OF YOU!

[Wild Goose has reached his limit and must be sedated.]
*shrug* Hey, I still haven't given up on the "It's a magical barrier, barrier blocks the hit. Duh." explanation that virtually everyone except Ark seems to accept.

Problem is that Ark doesn't accept this.

Laws of Physics are usually secondary concern in animation, even more so when the animation in question uses a fantasy setting to begin with (human transforms into a ferret? Lolwut?) sci-fi is another example (but then again, in space nobody can hear you point out sound doesn't travel in space).

My opinion? We know Jackets generate barriers, its stated several times. Whenever characters get tossed through objects and no defence is visibly present prior to impact, its the Barrier Jacket that takes the hit. Clean, simple, and doesn't require mindbending.
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Old 2008-03-27, 09:32   Link #1091
Wild Goose
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The irony here is that of all the author's on OC I am the guy who's writing the closest to the 'hard' side of fiction (what with the fact that my OFM writing has a strong mil-SF flavor) and yet I can accept that there are some things which are magical and leave it at that.

Goodnight, all.

See this is why I liked Stargate, it was very much a "Take it a face value" kinda show and while they used a crapload of applied phlebotium for the most part it made sense.
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Old 2008-03-27, 10:13   Link #1092
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Well, it can't be a pointier needle head, because in another episode O'Neill throws his combat knife into a System Lord's hand (either Apophis or Klorel, most definately not Anubis, Sorak or Ba'al); IIRC what happened was that he whipped out his P90, which shoots very pointy 4.7mm AP rounds, fired, it didn't work, he threw his knife and embedded it in the System Lord's hand. Or did he skip the shooting and throw? It's been a while since I saw that episode, but he definately threw the knife into the System Lord's hand. And the knife blade isn't as pointy as a needle.
From the Wiki pictures, it is pretty pointy, but more pointy than a needle?

Quote:
Still, as I said, how does this not work? Even discounting that we don't see mages deflecting bullets with their BJs, we still see here that the swords and Belkan melee weapons, having greater mass and momentum than beams which are primarily energy with lower mass, penetrating the BJ defensive complex to cut the fabric of the barrier jacket. So how does this not make sense?
You have to be careful. Remember, physically it is not just mass - the issue is momentum, force and pressure as well as mechanical properties which affect deformation. It is still pretty physically unacceptable if projectile A which weights 15 grams and travels at 900m gets blocked while B weighs 30 grams or even 60 grams but only travels at 100m gets through, with all other factors being even, because the momentum of projectile B, and thus the force it could possibly have applied is actually much less than Projectile A, but it is acceptable if Projectile B's frontal cross section is only say 1/10th of Projectile A because then Pressure becomes a valid explanation. And so on. It all gets quite complicated, and there are many ways to "win" (unfortunately, the MGLN BJ is amazingly far in the left field it can't find a single way out of the possibilities to win) as long as something like this can explain the phenomena, it is not physically objectionable. But if not...

Quote:
What about quicksand, which sucks you in faster with the more energy and momentum you use in trying to get out? (Getting this out of the way before someone else says it.)
That means it actually yields more easily as energy increases.

Quote:
Thus returning to my analogy, the Barrier Jacket's Barrier is set protect against incoming magical energy, probably lasers or beam weapons, and while it may or may not be penetrable by bullets, swords and melee weapons with a significant amount of mass, inertia and momentum to them (especially when compared to a beamspam attack) can get through this Barrier since the Barrier isn't set to filter these threats.
Well, I won't object to something like this. Were you saying something like this before? Maybe I just didn't see it in the smoke of about ten people throwing pebbles in my direction. But I'll object to the word "set", because it implies they can turn the feature on at a whim, which does not seem to be the case.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
However, Fate clearly states that mass-based weaponry was primarely used in those days, no notion of energy based weapons is made (those particle beam weapons too can easilly be canons, and the 'beam' is simply the flare of the shell being fired)

Regardless of that one weapon, fact is that Fate said mass-based weaponry was primarely used.

And if they are made to protect against energy, how come Fate's energy scythe managed to break through Signum's defenses?
OK, you've just given me an excuse to expand my webpage.

Note that the explanation in no way dismisses a laser as being a valid "mass weapon" in Midchildran terminology. Can a high-powered laser cause "mass destruction without using Magic?" Certainly!

Fate's magical scythe is formed into a rigid forcefield (high interparticle bond strength). Thus, it applied force onto Signum's "kachuu" as if it were an object made of fermions.
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Old 2008-03-27, 11:40   Link #1093
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I may or may not regret this but...

arkhangelsk...I have a question for ya.

Why in the world are you trying to turn this into something that could happen in real life? Granted that a lot of the concepts of Nanoha can be explained with real world physics and other real world law, however, not everything is. There are certain aspects of it that bend the laws, and then others that are just not worth getting a headache over, such as how Barrier Jackets flaps in the wind, yet make a body-shaped imprint in a wall.

So why go through all the trouble, and headache, when the discussion is only going to escalate into another shouting match, in which someone will eventually have to call up another ceasefire?

Is winning this discussion that important to you? Need I remind you, this is Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha. I emphasize Magical Girl. This is an anime. This is a show meant for one's enjoyment, such as how this thread is for everyone's enjoyment. Trying to rain down on everyone's theory with the kind of approach and objectivity is only going to rile people up to the point that it's going to end up in a shouting match.

At the very least...try to keep your arguments, within the realm of that series. Sure bring in real world physics, but keep it to a degree that it would still agree with what the anime has established as its laws of how things work.

And for goodness sakes stop trying to quantify anime! There are just some things in TV shows of this style, cartoons and animes, that you just cannot assign a number. So what's the point trying?
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Old 2008-03-27, 19:15   Link #1094
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I may or may not regret this but...

arkhangelsk...I have a question for ya.

Why in the world are you trying to turn this into something that could happen in real life?
How about, because the more a world can be rationalized into our well known real world, the more we can make predictions about it.

Quote:
So why go through all the trouble, and headache, when the discussion is only going to escalate into another shouting match, in which someone will eventually have to call up another ceasefire?
I must wonder then what is the purpose of this thread. Do you realize that BJs are not only this thread's latest topic, but also its first major topic? Look at the front of the thread, and see people bring in real life analogies and trying to rationalize it in physics. But when I come in, everything disintegrates into "Its magic". Is it because I discover unpleasant truths?

Or is it because I actually go all the way? If I don't want to analyze, I won't even get in (note the paucity of me in this thread early on). But if I'm to analyze, I do it seriously and give as little quarter as I can.
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Old 2008-03-27, 19:42   Link #1095
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How about, because the more a world can be rationalized into our well known real world, the more we can make predictions about it.



I must wonder then what is the purpose of this thread. Do you realize that BJs are not only this thread's latest topic, but also its first major topic? Look at the front of the thread, and see people bring in real life analogies and trying to rationalize it in physics. But when I come in, everything disintegrates into "Its magic". Is it because I discover unpleasant truths?

Or is it because I actually go all the way? If I don't want to analyze, I won't even get in (note the paucity of me in this thread early on). But if I'm to analyze, I do it seriously and give as little quarter as I can.
And therein is why people are getting a headache from you.
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Old 2008-03-28, 05:39   Link #1096
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How about, because the more a world can be rationalized into our well known real world, the more we can make predictions about it.
Ironically, all the technobable and forcefull adherence to the Laws of Physics has only resulted in everything making less and less sence.

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I must wonder then what is the purpose of this thread. Do you realize that BJs are not only this thread's latest topic, but also its first major topic? Look at the front of the thread, and see people bring in real life analogies and trying to rationalize it in physics. But when I come in, everything disintegrates into "Its magic". Is it because I discover unpleasant truths?
Actually, its more because you label things that clearly happen in the anime (Barrier Jackets shielding wearers from getting chukked through reinforced concrete) as 'impossible' and use that as a base to completely demolish everything on that base. You start contradicting things on the sole base that they would be 'impossible' according to the Laws of Physics.

This does not work for anime, or many other settings that use fantasy ellements. Nanoha is no exception, take Yuuno effortlessly transforming into a ferret and back again. Bye bye law of conservation of mass.

Explanations don't always need to adhere 100% to the Laws of Physics when an anime is about magic, a setting that in itself doesn't even exist, much less can be measured.
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Old 2008-03-28, 05:45   Link #1097
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Ironically, all the technobable and forcefull adherence to the Laws of Physics has only resulted in everything making less and less sence.
To you, maybe. But really, saying it is all magic is not "making sense of it", it is giving up all attempts to do the same. It is really, a little like burying your head under the sand - which I actually won't criticize, I tried really hard to bury my head for MGLN myself.

Quote:
Actually, its more because you label things that clearly happen in the anime (Barrier Jackets shielding wearers from getting chukked through reinforced concrete) as 'impossible' and use that as a base to completely demolish everything on that base. You start contradicting things on the sole base that they would be 'impossible' according to the Laws of Physics.
Actually, what clearly happened in the anime is that Fate survived a throw into concrete. In b/w there was smoke, and there are two theories for what happened in the smoke, one of which does not violate physics.

Think about which one will be the explanation accepted if it happened in real life.

As for ferrets, search for what I said on them in this thread.
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Old 2008-03-28, 06:36   Link #1098
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To you, maybe. But really, saying it is all magic is not "making sense of it", it is giving up all attempts to do the same. It is really, a little like burying your head under the sand - which I actually won't criticize, I tried really hard to bury my head for MGLN myself.
Animation doesn't always follow the laws of physics, you know this. Sometimes sitting back and saying 'it's magic' is simply the best thing to do. Yes, you can still try to explain it, but you can do so in a way that is far less complicated and headache inducing. Instead of "how did Fate survive getting thrown through concrete" "it's magic" you'd get "how did Fate survive getting thrown through concrete" "Her Barrier Jacket protected her"

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Actually, what clearly happened in the anime is that Fate survived a throw into concrete. In b/w there was smoke, and there are two theories for what happened in the smoke, one of which does not violate physics.
And yet your explanation relies on 'maybes' and 'what ifs' with no visible proof. Also, using your precious SoD, smoke means contact has been made, if we did not see a Defencer prior to contact, why should we asume there is one?

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Think about which one will be the explanation accepted if it happened in real life.
"There is no such thing as sound in space, but a silent space battle would make for a boring watch."

Laws of Animation take priority over Laws of Physics where animation is concerned. Things don't always have to be able to be accepted in real life. Do you watch a sci-fi movie and grumble about how its should not be possible for sounds to be heard?

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As for ferrets, search for what I said on them in this thread.
You mean the subspace thing? Not that I mind the theory, but how does that change anything? The mass is still going bye bye, not to mention that subspaces themselves scream 'violation'
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Old 2008-03-28, 07:09   Link #1099
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Animation doesn't always follow the laws of physics, you know this. Sometimes sitting back and saying 'it's magic' is simply the best thing to do. Yes, you can still try to explain it, but you can do so in a way that is far less complicated and headache inducing. Instead of "how did Fate survive getting thrown through concrete" "it's magic" you'd get "how did Fate survive getting thrown through concrete" "Her Barrier Jacket protected her"
Except that physically it doesn't. By the time you manage to add enough physics defying properties to the BJ, it is no longer a simple theory.

Quote:
And yet your explanation relies on 'maybes' and 'what ifs' with no visible proof. Also, using your precious SoD, smoke means contact has been made, if we did not see a Defencer prior to contact, why should we asume there is one?
Since nothing was observed, any explanation can't get much higher than a "maybe". And "Maybes" and "what ifs" beats a no. To put it another way, you are just closing your eyes to the sheer number of science-bending "maybes" and "what ifs" it'll take to get that BJ to save Fate.

(Read: Just saying "maybe the BJ saved Fate" is hiding under the sand. Look at how long those (not really all that workable) rationalizations got in the end and you'll start to see the barest glimmer that it isn't simple at all.)

Quote:
"There is no such thing as sound in space, but a silent space battle would make for a boring watch."

Laws of Animation take priority over Laws of Physics where animation is concerned. Things don't always have to be able to be accepted in real life. Do you watch a sci-fi movie and grumble about how its should not be possible for sounds to be heard?
Trust me, much effort has been spent rationalizing this one

Quote:
You mean the subspace thing? Not that I mind the theory, but how does that change anything? The mass is still going bye bye, not to mention that subspaces themselves scream 'violation'
No, that was Tk. Look at mine. Anyway, with subspace, technically is mass is only being moved to where we can't see it. You are right it is still pretty bad (a very iffy maybe) but it beats violating Conservation of Energy (a no) all hollow, and the fact they are canonically having other dimensions does increase its plausibility a notch.
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Old 2008-03-31, 01:24   Link #1100
Wild Goose
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 28
Something I was wondering about.

The bugs wings are flapping. The windblast wouldthen be going down and behind them as they propel themselves forward.

So how does the windblast then go forward and to the side as the bug goes forward, and graze Rein? It doesn't make any sense at all.

EDIT: Regarding stadia ranging: when ya wanna debate a man on his methodology, ya gotta test it for yourself to see if it works...

Regards taking things seriously, I take nothing mentioned in this thread seriously, with regards to my writing. I do try to put an effort into arguing.

Also, regarding the whole "durr you all can research i post from memory" you were whining about a while ago, suck it up. Most of us post from memory as well.
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Last edited by Wild Goose; 2008-03-31 at 01:58.
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