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View Poll Results: True Tears - Episode 13 Rating
Perfect 10 106 40.93%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 63 24.32%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 32 12.36%
7 out of 10 : Good 16 6.18%
6 out of 10 : Average 14 5.41%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 6 2.32%
4 out of 10 : Poor 1 0.39%
3 out of 10 : Bad 4 1.54%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 17 6.56%
Voters: 259. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-03-31, 21:57   Link #281
Guardian Enzo
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Well again, I ask you - quibble with my choice of words (I did with yours, so fair enough) but where is the passion towards Noe? Even the "confession" rock sculpture was done at her insistence. I just don't see it. I actually think compassion is part of what Shin feels towards both Noe and Hiromi, so maybe that wasn't the perfect choice of words. I still think it more ore less boiled down to a romantic vs. rational decision. Heart vs. brain. Passion vs. logic.
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Old 2008-03-31, 22:12   Link #282
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Well, if I disagree with something I have to bring it up...besides, I only quibble because compassion has quite a different meaning than the other words we used. Compassion implied pity, sympathy, feeling sorry for a person, etc. And I think that's the opposite of what we saw in the final episode. And given that there was ample opportunity for Shin to just feel sorry for Noe, the fact that his words were what they are is important, I think. Noe had been on a downward spiral, but Shin doesn't look down on her or simply feel sorry for her. He recognizes her value to him and what he means to him and his feelings, and that's the important thing.

Well, what describes "passion"? Breaking up with Noe apparently is enough to make him cry, break down outside, etc. I don't know if that's entirely a detached and logical perspective by Shin. Noe made his heart waver/shake/whatever. I don't believe anything in this scene implies that Noe was entirely a choice for his "brain" rather than his heart. In fact, I think the opposite. It was Shin's brain which told him "Make a decision because you'll go nowhere like this. Make a choice, then get rid of the doubts in your heart". And that's what he did. He chose Hiromi and then let go of Noe so that his heart would be focused on Hiromi.
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Old 2008-03-31, 22:25   Link #283
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Though I was a Noe supporter, I have to admit this was a very well done episode, though I wish they'd explained a bit of how Noe was able to tough out everything that happened to her (hence my 9). I mean to have someone who was so emotionally hurt to recover herself so well despite the fact she lost her support system (Shin and Jun) is astonishing and requires a little explanation on how she accomplished it mentally.

To the Hiromi supporters, you got your ending so please stop being sore winners and continue this argument that he never cared for Noe in a romantic way. We can go in circles arguing about how Noe made Shin do things and how Shin's crying over breaking up with her was "purely" platonic, but I think we can reasonable and say that this was a true battle of the heart between Hiromi and Noe and Hiromi won. Otherwise, why not tell Noe earlier to bug off like he did poor Ai-chan? Let's just be good sports on both side and move on with our lives.
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Old 2008-03-31, 22:39   Link #284
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Kobukson, I've been careful never to say that there definitively was no romantic feeling between Shin and Noe - in fact, I've gone out of my way to say that there was probably some element of it in his feelings for her. Nevertheless, I still say there's no evidence of any passion in the romantic sense of that word. In a broader sense of passion just as any type of strong feeling, sure - his tears at the breakup were more than proof of that.

Theowne, as I said, I quibbled with your wording so I had no problem with you quibbling with mine! Again, compassionate probably wasn't the best choice there so you were right in your response.
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Old 2008-03-31, 22:52   Link #285
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Originally Posted by Kobukson View Post
To the Hiromi supporters, you got your ending so please stop being sore winners and continue this argument that he never cared for Noe in a romantic way.
With all due respect, could you also please stop doing whatever you're doing? What's being discussed here has nothing to do with Hiromi nor Noe shippings. It's about us having different interpretations to the story, and that's it. There's no need to bring the topic of shipping into the picture to derail the discussion here.
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Old 2008-03-31, 23:20   Link #286
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Right.......I think it's valid to debate these things and I actually like discussing and arguing various points of interpretation after a series is done, especially a good series like True Tears. I remember the one thing that got me over the fact that Honey and Clover ended was being on Animesuki discussing it. I don't think "shipping wars" ever really comes into it, or at least I don't usually respond to posts that are clearly biased to a shipper's perspective.
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Old 2008-04-01, 00:30   Link #287
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Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo View Post
Well again, I ask you - quibble with my choice of words (I did with yours, so fair enough) but where is the passion towards Noe? Even the "confession" rock sculpture was done at her insistence. I just don't see it. I actually think compassion is part of what Shin feels towards both Noe and Hiromi, so maybe that wasn't the perfect choice of words. I still think it more ore less boiled down to a romantic vs. rational decision. Heart vs. brain. Passion vs. logic.
the rock confession happened when Shin's feeling for Noe were not yet developed, he was forced to do that in order to keep the deal with Jun. I was one of the people that said that shin didn't feel much for Noe when he did that.
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Old 2008-04-01, 00:51   Link #288
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the rock confession happened when Shin's feeling for Noe were not yet developed, he was forced to do that in order to keep the deal with Jun. I was one of the people that said that shin didn't feel much for Noe when he did that.
I really hope that no one took that confession seriously. The only thing that confused so many people in this series is that it wasn't clear which girl Shinchiro truly liked by the end of episode 12, but according to this episode he liked them both, so that clears everything up.
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Old 2008-04-01, 01:08   Link #289
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i rate this series a 5. the way with the whole jun x hiromi so --> shin x noe was so unrealistic it just ruin the whole show.
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Old 2008-04-01, 01:21   Link #290
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To me, one important clue of how Shin feels about Noe is implied a while ago when Raigomaru used grumbling stomach as an excuse of not wanting to fly. At that point in time, Raigomaru's flight clearly represents Shin's romantic feelings for Noe. With Raigomaru's excuses came up for so many times, it can be interpreted that, unconsciously, no matter how many times Shin tried, he was still unable to think of Noe in such a way. So when forced to go all the way with Noe (i.e., to go with the choice he didn't choose, to do what wasn't in-line with his own heart), he hesitated.

Once Noe realized who Shin is in love with, and see hesitation from Raigomaru, she was frustrated enough to force Jibeta to fly, only to realize that it's no good to force her choice on others. Without making one's own choice, one will never be happy. She also realized that standing proud on the ground is no different than taking flight. Raigomaru and Jibeta both show their strengths in their choices. As they were true to themselves, there's nothing wrong in making either choice.

Witnessing the whole thing, Shin came to realize that making his own choice is the solution all his problems. Before, he just went with the flow and not doing anything to make situations better -- whether it's about his dance, his drawing, or his love. Thanks to Noe's words, he finally realized what to do.

And making his own choices indeed. Once his reflection inside the cupboard was done, he now had his own choices on all those areas pinned down. And the key phrases to signify that were all there when Raigomaru took flight:
It's not for the sake of others,
nor for the glory,
nor for setting the record,
Raigomaru took flight.
To me, it's this one short sentence that pretty much sums up Shin's choices regarding all three issues he has.
  • For his love life, he now follows his own heart. It's no longer "for the sake of others". It used to be that he "handed" Hiromi over to Jun because he thought that she'll be happy. And after seeing Jun protecting Hiromi during basketball match, he was taken aback that Jun might develop feelings for Hiromi. And in Noe's case, he cares for her happiness so much that he didn't dare to break up with her. All these times, he just looked outward and reacted without ever taking a really good look at his own feeling. But now, with all the worries of others out of the way, all that's left in the heart is his own feeling. With that moment of clarity, he realized his own choice.
  • For drawing, he now draws just because he loves it. It's no longer "for the glory". The drawings are no longer done just so that he'll gain acceptance from others. He won't feel down no matter how many times the publisher rejects his drawings. He won't feel bad when they pointed out the flaws (or "limitations") in his drawings.
  • For dancing, he now dances to the best of his own ability. It's no longer about "setting the record" so that he'll look good when being compared with his dad. He no longer cares about comparison. This year it's all about his dance, not his father's.
In short, his choices were made since the time he murmured to himself inside his room. And this time we see Raigomaru was able to fly. And that flight was achievable only because now it's Shin's own choice.

So, I believe what has happened for the last 12 episodes wasn't really about Shin's romantic feelings being swayed by Noe. From the looks of it, it's more about him being confused of how to "do things properly" in everything he did when he was so overwhelmed by others' feelings and concerns. It's always about "the sake of others", or "the glory", or "setting the record" that threw him off balance -- so off that he lost sight of his true choices and feelings. Fortunately, he found them all back.

Indeed, he was in pain parting with Noe, and rightly so, because Noe was the person who makes him realizing his own choices, as well as the person who supports him to follow his own will. There is no doubt that she's his inspiration. So when you have had such a memorable time with her, and yet you have to break her heart in order to make a choice that she just helped you realized, it'll pain you more than anything.

It's even more sad when thinking of the consequence of breaking up. As it stands, Noe already hurt physically and mentally. And the breakup will definitely hurt her even more. Shin was definitely afraid and guilty that he might end up making her unable to fly and unable to cry.

Besides, it was a sudden parting. They realized themselves that they grew out of each other, had their own wings, and will fly in their own ways. It's a real farewell, since (as golthin said earlier) this clean breakup is unavoidable. So when you realize that it's parting "forever" from here on out, it's not hard to realize how Shin felt when Noe turned her back and walked away. He definitely didn't want to part with Noe, but he already made the choice. If he could pursue his own love with Hiromi while being friends with Noe, I believe he'll go that route. And that's because they are both very important to him.

So, in short, I guess what I want to say is that I'm in agreement with those of you who said that Shin has feelings for Noe, but not really in the same sense as what he has with Hiromi. As has been iterated for so many times already, this kind of interpretation isn't done to downplay Shin's feelings for Noe. The feelings was indeed very powerful, and I would only be blind not to notice that. Shin definitely cherished his bond with Noe. More than anything, Shin valued her and indebted to her. It's just that I don't think his feelings for her is strictly as romantic as some of you seem to say...

Last edited by b0nyb0y; 2008-04-01 at 02:00. Reason: minor editing
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Old 2008-04-01, 01:37   Link #291
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well,

To me,

The things Shin and Noe did while "dating" did not indicate a clear romantic interest. It was rather vague. Could it have been? Possible.

On the contrast, Shin started drawing because of Hiromi -- often monologuing about wanting to take away her tears, as early the prologue of the first episode. I saw him being happy at the prospect of Hiromi trying to be friends with Noe. (he misinterpreted the approach you through your friend theory) I saw him frequently being jealous at Noe's brother whenever he was near Hiromi.

There's also the matter of conviction.

He was convicted enough to rush out towards Hiromi at the end of episode 10, corny theatricals and all.
He was not willing to talk to a clearly disturbed chicken holding Noe at the harbor.

So, disregarding any behind the scenes speculations..
As far as visible evidence goes, Hiromi had an advantage. At least, in that field.
There are many kind of bonds.
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Last edited by Key Board; 2008-04-01 at 01:48.
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Old 2008-04-01, 06:03   Link #292
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well,

To me,

The things Shin and Noe did while "dating" did not indicate a clear romantic interest. It was rather vague. Could it have been? Possible.

It seems that people won't believe that shin had feelings for Noe until Shin break the fourth wall and tells us straight the he did loved her. Even when he cried because he had to break up with her for Hiromi's sake. He even had to sing the song to convince himself that Hiromi was the right choice. Lets face it, even after episode 10 when he was with Hiromi, he was acting with Hiromi the same way he acted with Noe. Shin doesn't have a romantic bone in his body, he NEVER kissed a single girl during the whole show, all the kisss he got (all three of them) were initiated by all three girls (noe's kiss was on the cheek though)
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Old 2008-04-01, 10:56   Link #293
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[RIUVA] True Tears, Episode 13

Heh. Covering this series is one of the toughest jobs I have ever had thus far in my RIUVA tenure, and it's not so much that the series is particularly hard to blog about or anything...
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Old 2008-04-01, 11:02   Link #294
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Originally Posted by golthin View Post
It seems that people won't believe that shin had feelings for Noe until Shin break the fourth wall and tells us straight the he did loved her. Even when he cried because he had to break up with her for Hiromi's sake. He even had to sing the song to convince himself that Hiromi was the right choice. Lets face it, even after episode 10 when he was with Hiromi, he was acting with Hiromi the same way he acted with Noe. Shin doesn't have a romantic bone in his body, he NEVER kissed a single girl during the whole show, all the kisss he got (all three of them) were initiated by all three girls (noe's kiss was on the cheek though)
Well, I guess this might be another example of Ascaloth's "True Tears is too subtle" argument then.

Because while yours truly does acknowledge that as affection, it is still too vague for me to acknowledge that as romantic affection. You can cry for a friend, you know. Especially if they were put in a cruel situation like Noe.
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Old 2008-04-01, 13:06   Link #295
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Sorry, I still think it doesn't make much sense to deny that he had romantic feelings for Noe. Everything surrounding the break-up scene implies it. His brief dialogue with his father implies it. Same with the comparison between Hiromi and Shin's mother. What was the entire problem with Shin's parents? Shin's father had his heart "waver" like is implied in that brief scene. All of these surrounding scenes become far less meaningful if you believe that he had no romantic feelings, only sympathy or sadness for her, or brotherly affection.

Look at what Shin actually says and thinks. He has ample opportunity to feel sorry for Noe, or to tell her that he's sorry, or similar if he truly is sad only because he pities her and sympathizes with her. But hat's not what happened. He only spoke about himself. He spoke only about how he was affected by her, and that his "heart wavers". There was no sympathy or pity. It's not because Shin is self-centered, rather it's because this is an important decision and he's being honest. He is in love with Hiromi, but his heart wavers whenever he sees Noe, so he has to leave Noe. Then, outside, he boldly convinces himself of this once and for all so he can watch Noe leave and he can love Hiromi without wavering. This entire scene has so much strength because of that idea.

Quote:
He was convicted enough to rush out towards Hiromi at the end of episode 10, corny theatricals and all.
If rushing out is all that matters, in episode 12, he left Hiromi and rushed out towards Noe as well. I'm not saying that means anything, but it sure was similar to the scene at the end of episode 10, perhaps even a bit stronger since it made him lie to Hiromi in order to do it.
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Old 2008-04-01, 13:19   Link #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by golthin View Post
It seems that people won't believe that shin had feelings for Noe until Shin break the fourth wall and tells us straight the he did loved her. Even when he cried because he had to break up with her for Hiromi's sake. He even had to sing the song to convince himself that Hiromi was the right choice. Lets face it, even after episode 10 when he was with Hiromi, he was acting with Hiromi the same way he acted with Noe. Shin doesn't have a romantic bone in his body, he NEVER kissed a single girl during the whole show, all the kisss he got (all three of them) were initiated by all three girls (noe's kiss was on the cheek though)
I never doubted that i felt he did have feelings for her. Its just that his feelings for Hiromi were stronger. Shin loved Noe in his own right and he considered her a friend. I didnt think the crying was out of place, Noe was inspiration or muse if you will and Hiromi was his true love. The treat for me was the unsaid approval from Shins mom to Hiromi i had a big smile on my face when i saw that scene.
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Old 2008-04-02, 02:26   Link #297
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What would be a better word for Shin's love for Noe?
To tell you the truth, I don't think there's a word to describe it if you're going to rule out "romantic love". Intellectual love (is there even such a category?) makes it sound like the brain is the only one in love. I don't think it's infatuation either since it's not just about physical attraction. It's not brotherly love either because Noe can make Shin blush like a tomato, and Shin did get a bit bothered when he thought Noe had a boyfriend. Passionate love might have been a good term if it wasn't pertaining to the sexual sense. Compassionate love---it's just like what golthin and Theowne argued. It's definitely not platonic love or the situation wouldn't have gotten this complicated. And then there's Divine love--(love you have for your God) but it's not like Shin is worshiping Noe haha


Quote:
Originally Posted by b0nyb0y View Post
To me, one important clue of how Shin feels about Noe is implied a while ago when Raigomaru used grumbling stomach as an excuse of not wanting to fly. At that point in time, Raigomaru's flight clearly represents Shin's romantic feelings for Noe. With Raigomaru's excuses came up for so many times, it can be interpreted that, unconsciously, no matter how many times Shin tried, he was still unable to think of Noe in such a way. So when forced to go all the way with Noe (i.e., to go with the choice he didn't choose, to do what wasn't in-line with his own heart), he hesitated.

Once Noe realized who Shin is in love with, and see hesitation from Raigomaru, she was frustrated enough to force Jibeta to fly, only to realize that it's no good to force her choice on others. Without making one's own choice, one will never be happy. She also realized that standing proud on the ground is no different than taking flight. Raigomaru and Jibeta both show their strengths in their choices. As they were true to themselves, there's nothing wrong in making either choice.

Witnessing the whole thing, Shin came to realize that making his own choice is the solution all his problems. Before, he just went with the flow and not doing anything to make situations better -- whether it's about his dance, his drawing, or his love. Thanks to Noe's words, he finally realized what to do.

And making his own choices indeed. Once his reflection inside the cupboard was done, he now had his own choices on all those areas pinned down. And the key phrases to signify that were all there when Raigomaru took flight:
It's not for the sake of others,
nor for the glory,
nor for setting the record,
Raigomaru took flight.
To me, it's this one short sentence that pretty much sums up Shin's choices regarding all three issues he has. [LIST]
I pretty much on the same page with you up to here. You put it all together so nicely. Yes. Shin finally figured it out himself and was able to fly. This is also where Shin realized that the girl who believed in him, when noone dared to reach out, was Noe. In other words, he was able to draw because of Noe's eyes who believed he CAN fly.

"You wanted to fly. Not for the sake of others, not for glory, not for setting the record. Raigomaru took flight."

I saw those as Noe's real meaning of flying for Shin. She wanted Shin to be always looking at the sky, and he did just that. He was having all these thoughts when the girl whom he was supposed to be looking at was his 'love' Hiromi. Instead of Hiromi, Shin looked at Noe. If that is not a sign of his feelings being swayed, then I don't know what is.

Ever since episode 1, the girl who Shin fancies is really Hiromi. The writers kept rubbing that to our faces. The HiromixShin ending can be seen by everyone--even an idiot. However, ever since the Mugiha dance, Hiromi ending suddenly didn't seem that solid anymore. It 'trembled'. Just like Shin. His 'almighty' feelings suddenly became unstable. Like I said, his confession in episode 13 made absolute sense.

I know I'm just reinstating what Theowne had said, but the reason why Shin "couldn't do things properly" was because of Noe. As long as Noe's in the picture, Shin couldn't commit to Hiromi. If Shin's feelings for Noe was not romantic, we wouldn't have this problem. I think Shin wasn't aware of this when he told Hiromi "he would do things properly." From what I noticed, the gripe about most Hiromi fans was that Hiromi herself wasn't enough to make Shinichiro look at only her. Well, I think Shin did the right thing for everyone when he and Noe went their seperate ways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by b0nyb0y View Post

It's even more sad when thinking of the consequence of breaking up. As it stands, Noe already hurt physically and mentally. And the breakup will definitely hurt her even more. Shin was definitely afraid and guilty that he might end up making her unable to fly and unable to cry.
Now, between Shin and Noe's breakup, it seemed like the one who really got hurt the most here was Shin. I've stopped feeling sorry for Noe ever since I saw Shin break down and cry true tears cuz of her lol True, they cried true tears for each other, but Shin just took the cake.
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Old 2008-04-02, 03:07   Link #298
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I think the explanation is that he didn't love Noe per-say, just Noe's outlook on life and the inspiration she gave him. I don't think Noe inspired him to draw, that was Hiromi as we saw with his first picture that resurfaced and the earliest episode. It was Hiromi that inspired him to take his own path as an artist instead of taking over the winery. The fact that he couldn't continue in his efforts to draw was a representation of how he himself couldn't move forward because he didn't know how. What Noe inspired him to do was what he always wanted to do, wipe the tears away from Hiromi and truly love and express that love to her.

The parting he had with Noe was heartbreaking because he didn't want to lose everything that he had gained from that encounter. Noe loved him and he couldn't return those feelings and Noe knew that he could never fly with her around. So they had to separate. He had to do things properly, unlike his father, by cutting all bonds they had, including friendship. It was the point where he flew by his own volition.

Last edited by harmonious; 2008-04-02 at 04:52.
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Old 2008-04-02, 13:06   Link #299
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I think the explanation is that he didn't love Noe per-say, just Noe's outlook on life and the inspiration she gave him. I don't think Noe inspired him to draw, that was Hiromi as we saw with his first picture that resurfaced and the earliest episode. It was Hiromi that inspired him to take his own path as an artist instead of taking over the winery. The fact that he couldn't continue in his efforts to draw was a representation of how he himself couldn't move forward because he didn't know how. What Noe inspired him to do was what he always wanted to do, wipe the tears away from Hiromi and truly love and express that love to her.

The parting he had with Noe was heartbreaking because he didn't want to lose everything that he had gained from that encounter. Noe loved him and he couldn't return those feelings and Noe knew that he could never fly with her around. So they had to separate. He had to do things properly, unlike his father, by cutting all bonds they had, including friendship. It was the point where he flew by his own volition.
This is just like all the people that give this episode a one score. Only way we could be able to argue your opinion is if Shin broke the fourth wall and told us "People, I loved Noe" or "Yeah you are right I only liked her as a good friend". The fact is that the Major consensus is that He did loved Noe but he loved Hiromi more and chose her.
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Old 2008-04-02, 17:43   Link #300
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Best anime ever. It is now my number 1.

This is the first anime that doesn't leave me with the ''lame'' feeling...

Noe fulfilled her promise, shin-ichiro and hiromi are now together, yay for yuasa!
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