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View Poll Results: Mobile Suit Gundam 00 - Episode 25 Rating
Perfect 10 242 59.46%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 109 26.78%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 28 6.88%
7 out of 10 : Good 13 3.19%
6 out of 10 : Average 7 1.72%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 0.74%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 0.49%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.25%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 2 0.49%
Voters: 407. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2008-04-05, 08:55   Link #1021
Vorenus
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
And stopping the threat to their national security.
I agree : I have long wondered why the powers would have wanted to stop Celestial Being : morally, I don't know many people who don't think war is something that should never happened (and while war may be sometimes financially profitable, it is also a great toll on a country's economy budget) but not at all costs : No sovereign state likes to have things enforced on itself, especially by a power with no legitimity.
CB was indeed a threat to these countries and the power blocs had to stop them for the same reason Gilbert told Athrun that ZAFT was right to shot the Archangel and Freedom down : they couldn't afford to let such a massive and impredictable power roam around freely and let them do whatever they wanted.

Quote:
That's something that was never explored in the series. We got a handful of protest shots and people waving little signs around condemning Celestial Being. No named character EVER criticised what Celestial Being was doing, and that's what's really important.
Marina did when talking with Setsuna as Kamal, and aside of her thinking their interventions were extreme, she was at the head of a country and pretty worried that CB would have come to her country to put more mess than there already were.
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Old 2008-04-05, 09:02   Link #1022
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Vorenus View Post
Marina did when talking with Setsuna as Kamal, and aside of her thinking their interventions were extreme, she was at the head of a country and pretty worried that CB would have come to her country to put more mess than there already were.
You'll pardon me for forgetting anything Marina ever said or did. I personally can't sympathize with her when she's not wearing newspaper.
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Old 2008-04-05, 09:09   Link #1023
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Vorenus View Post
I agree : I have long wondered why the powers would have wanted to stop Celestial Being : morally, I don't know many people who don't think war is something that should never happened (and while war may be sometimes financially profitable, it is also a great toll on a country's economy budget) but not at all costs : No sovereign state likes to have things enforced on itself, especially by a power with no legitimity.
CB was indeed a threat to these countries and the power blocs had to stop them for the same reason Gilbert told Athrun that ZAFT was right to shot the Archangel and Freedom down : they couldn't afford to let such a massive and impredictable power freely and let them do whatever they wanted.
Technically, you can say the same thing about each of the other world powers; why should they allow the other rivals to exist? Remember how Sergei was angry that AEU's arms trading practices caused HRL's elevator to come under attack by Helions? Or how the Union had a full squad of armed Flags flew right into HRL territory in secret?

CB was not massive, nor was it unpredictable. CB followed its declared doctrine to the letter for many months, which was the reason the trap in the desert worked. If CB was malicious and not do what it says when it suited them, the trap in China would never have worked as they would simply ignore the terrorists.

For all intent and purposes, CB was more reliable than the world powers; at least they do what they say they are doing.

The nations have "Legitimacy"? Does this "legitimacy" give authority to lie, cheat and rob whenever it wants?
I find it outragous for people to claim CB to be untrustworthy when the world powers were lying to each other and their own people over and over again, to the plain view of the audience. If you want to talk about trust, let's make it all-encompassing; Who lied more, CB or the world powers?
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Old 2008-04-05, 09:25   Link #1024
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Technically, you can say the same thing about each of the other world powers; why should they allow the other rivals to exist? Remember how Sergei was angry that AEU's arms trading practices caused HRL's elevator to come under attack by Helions? Or how the Union had a full squad of armed Flags flew right into HRL territory in secret?

CB was not massive, nor was it unpredictable. CB followed its declared doctrine to the letter for many months, which was the reason the trap in the desert worked. If CB was malicious and not do what it says when it suited them, the trap in China would never have worked as they would simply ignore the terrorists.

For all intent and purposes, CB was more reliable than the world powers; at least they do what they say they are doing.

The nations have "Legitimacy"? Does this "legitimacy" give authority to lie, cheat and rob whenever it wants?
I find it outragous for people to claim CB to be untrustworthy when the world powers were lying to each other and their own people over and over again, to the plain view of the audience. If you want to talk about trust, let's make it all-encompassing; Who lied more, CB or the world powers?
The enemy you know? Every one of the Factions have their own self-interests, a people to protect, open-lines of communication, and while diplicity exists, so do real-world consenquences for their actions. The HRL suffered a blow when the Human Enhancement Project was revealed. The AEU lost face when they were shown to be in violation of a treaty.

Basically the Factions have to be responsible, even when they're not acting in good faith. And you can count on them not doing anything that would cause too much trouble, especially due to their interdepency. They need eachother.

Celestial Being on the other hand, has no self-interests and their doctrine is full of shit, and they don't communicate with anyone, while potentionally being able to screw over the entire planet in matter of hours with one sortie.

Celestial Being is secretive. It is unstoppable. It always has the iniative. It has no country. No holdings. No people. And hardly ever says a word.

They're the scum of the universe, and should have been treated with utter contempt right from the beginning.
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Old 2008-04-05, 09:35   Link #1025
Vorenus
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Technically, you can say the same thing about each of the other world powers; why should they allow the other rivals to exist? Remember how Sergei was angry that AEU's arms trading practices caused HRL's elevator to come under attack by Helions? Or how the Union had a full squad of armed Flags flew right into HRL territory in secret?
Except that each of the power was implied to be more or less equal to the other in term of military powers etc (all this chit-chat about zero-sum games of the beginning of the series etc).
Any power being in an open war with one of the two others would have led to a World War : they basically couldn't get rid of each others.

Quote:
CB was not massive, nor was it unpredictable. CB followed its declared doctrine to the letter for many months, which was the reason the trap in the desert worked. If CB was malicious and not do what it says when it suited them, the trap in China would never have worked as they would simply ignore the terrorists.
You're right, they did follow their doctrine for many months : arguably the Thrones may be an exception (attacking civilians, attacking bases while there was apparently no conflict), but even if we say they followed their doctrine to the letter, there was no guarantee at all it would continue...
Even Kinue, a simple journalist, and Eifman, a scientist, have investigated the possibility that ending wars may not have been the true purpose of Celestial Being.
You would think that politicians would have even more doubts and not trust a terrorist organization : as Lockon said, "To the world, we are fine terrorists"... but a fine terrorist is still a terrorist.
Would a well established and democratic nation trust terrorists to lead the World ?

Quote:
The nations have "Legitimacy"? Does this "legitimacy" give authority to lie, cheat and rob whenever it wants?
I find it outragous for people to claim CB to be untrustworthy when the world powers were lying to each other and their own people over and over again, to the plain view of the audience. If you want to talk about trust, let's make it all-encompassing; Who lied more, CB or the world powers?
It is what politics is all about unfortunately.
The three power blocs were indeed lying to each others constantly, were in some sort of cold war when the series started, but in the end, they were more than eager to cooperate together to put an end to Celestial Being, which implies they prefered to get back to the former situation, as stressful as it may have been, than stay in the current one.

Also, the power blocs knew that they had ways to retaliate if one of them attacked the other, but it was much harder to strike back against Celestial Being, not only because of their technology, but mainly because they have no country to use deterrent on or retaliate against.
In the real world, many wars are prevented from happening thanks to deterrents like Nuclear Weapons (and before that, diplomats).
You can send diplomats to talk with each other or use deterrents against a nation with an official and established military but not against a Terrorist organization using Strike-and-Run Guerilla-tactics.
It is why war on Terrorism against organizations like Al-Quaeda is so difficult in the real world.

Last edited by Vorenus; 2008-04-05 at 09:45.
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Old 2008-04-05, 09:47   Link #1026
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Vorenus View Post
It is why war on Terrorism against organizations like Al-Quaeda is so difficult in the real world.
True, and Celestial Being is even worse. With a normal Terrorist group, you can put pressure on their supporters, catch and interrogate their operatives, and potentionally attack the countries harboring them. Celestial Being on the other hand is alien in origin and protected by the powers of plot, the vacuum of space, and their operatives probably don't even know they're working for them.
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Old 2008-04-05, 10:02   Link #1027
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Vorenus View Post
Except that each of the power was implied to be more or less equal to the other in term of military powers etc (all this chit-chat about zero-sum games of the beginning of the series etc).
Any power being in an open war with one of the two others would have led to a World War.



You're right, they did follow their doctrine for many months : arguably the Thrones may be an exception (attacking civilians, attacking bases while there was apparently no conflict), but even if we say they followed their doctrine to the letter, there was no guarantee at all it would continue...
Even Kinue, a simple journalist, and Eifman, a scientist, have investigated the possibility that ending wars may not have been the true purpose of Celestial Being.
You would think that politicians would have even more doubts and not trust a terrorist organization : as Lockon said, "To the world, we are fine terrorists"... but a fine terrorist is still a terrorist.
Would a well established and democratic nation trust terrorists to lead the World ?



It is what politics is all about unfortunately.
The three power blocs were lying to each others constantly, were in some sort of cold war when the series started, but in the end, they were more than eager to cooperate together to put an end to Celestial Being, which implies they prefered to get back to the former situation, as stressful as it may have been, than stay in the current one.

Also, the power blocs knew that they had ways to retaliate if one of them attacked the other, but it was much harder to strike back against Celestial Being, not only because of their technology, but mainly because they have no country to use deterrent on or retaliate against.
In the real world, many wars are prevented from happening thanks to deterrents like Nuclear Weapons (and before that, diplomats).
You can send diplomats to talk with each other or use deterrents against a nation with an official and established military but not against a Terrorist organization using Strike-and-Run Guerilla-tactics.
It is why war on Terrorism against organizations like Al-Quaeda is so difficult in the real world.
You said yourself, the world powers who actually run the known world are completely untrustworthy. Yet they still run the world. So why should trust matter when CB is concerned?
"Would a well established and democratic nation trust terrorists to lead the World ?"
Technically a nation doesn't trust anyone at all, including itself. So trust is irrelevant here, the nations only care about if CB can be taken advantage of. And the conclusion is that they have not affected sovereignty, and the only thing that matters is they need to steal something that doesn't belong to them before the other two nations do it first.

CB was entirely trustworthy. But in politics the fact that you stick to your guns is something to mock and laugh at. The world powers lied and cheated to their own people to lay a trap against CB. While CB willingly walked into annihilation because it wanted to keep its promise.

You know what? I wouldn't have spent this much time arguing if the Union and AEU declared war on CB early on. It is ironic only HRL was honest with itself in which position it stands on. Had war being declared, Graham would have all the right in the world in tacking the unarmed Exia that time in the Middle East.

All this declaration that CB is some sort of evil force that needed to be wiped from the face of the Earth, yet so little evidence to support it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
True, and Celestial Being is even worse. With a normal Terrorist group, you can put pressure on their supporters, catch and interrogate their operatives, and potentionally attack the countries harboring them. Celestial Being on the other hand is alien in origin and protected by the powers of plot, the vacuum of space, and their operatives probably don't even know they're working for them.
So the fact that you have no power over them is justification to attack them?
I don't know you at all, Wesley84. I have no means of controlling your actions, pressuring your family, catch and integrate your friends, or potentially attack your nation that harbor you. Is that justification for me to treat you as a threat?
To have power over someone is not a right; it is an ABUSE. If you think nations have the right to do what they want to forces they don't like, it is the first step towards world war.
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Old 2008-04-05, 10:44   Link #1028
Vorenus
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You said yourself, the world powers who actually run the known world are completely untrustworthy. Yet they still run the world. So why should trust matter when CB is concerned?
Maybe because they have people behind them that are actually voting to choose their leaders in a democratic manner ?
They have legitimacy to run the World, which doesn't mean they are the best in what they are doing.

Quote:
CB was entirely trustworthy. But in politics the fact that you stick to your guns is something to mock and laugh at. The world powers lied and cheated to their own people to lay a trap against CB.
We watchers, who have seen a lot more of CB than any of the AEU, Union or HRL representative has ever seen, still do not know the real agenda of Celestial Being.
Again, the real world has already flirted with terrorists and we can't say it ended well (Bin Laden being unfortunately the best example).

It is not sticking to their guns : we say the 3 power blocs rule the world, but it isn't like there isn't a billions of civilians behind them and it is not like they were running by dictators eithers : like in most democratic countries of the World, there is a lot of ministers, advisors, etc... the role of these governments is to run the country and to protect their people.
Even if they lied to other countries, it was to protect their countries own interests : again, probably that every developped country in the real world has its own top secrets programs that may even violate one or two treaties...

Quote:
While CB willingly walked into annihilation because it wanted to keep its promise.
Quote:
All this declaration that CB is some sort of evil force that needed to be wiped from the face of the Earth, yet so little evidence to support it.
As an individual and watcher, I sympathize with CB's cause, but if I were in the seats of the persons having to decide to either trust or not trust CB when doing a mistake could mean the death of many people in my country, I would be very careful.
After all, CB is the organization having maniacs like Alejandro and Livonze in its rank... even if meant to stay true to its colours and never betray its ideals (which we have no guarantee of), you wouldn't be safe from maniacs wanting to take advantage of the organization.

I'm not saying CB is evil, just that it *may* be and that this *may* is reason enough to be careful : like I said, I sympathize to their cause as an individual, but what they did so far shows no reason to trust them (terrorist methods, etc).
When you see them with through the eyes of logic rather than through the eyes of ideals, you see there is a significant problem as to how much you can trust them.
It is a bit like not accepting candies from stranger : candies are good, but the stranger giving them may not be... where candies are world peace and the stranger is Celestial Being (which really is a stranger they don't know anything about after all).

PS: Yeah, wingdarkness inspired me with his pancakes analogies.
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Old 2008-04-05, 10:47   Link #1029
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You said yourself, the world powers who actually run the known world are completely untrustworthy. Yet they still run the world. So why should trust matter when CB is concerned?
They aren't completely untrustworthy. The very fact they have self-interests and aren't sucidial and insanes adds tremedously to their credibilty and confidence. Celestial Being is demonstratably suicidal and quite possibly insane, along with no obvious self-interests.

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Technically a nation doesn't trust anyone at all, including itself. So trust is irrelevant here, the nations only care about if CB can be taken advantage of. And the conclusion is that they have not affected sovereignty, and the only thing that matters is they need to steal something that doesn't belong to them before the other two nations do it first.
Trust does not need to be absolute. It's guaged in a number of ways, accounting for things like loyalty, personal interests, gain, risk, etc.

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CB was entirely trustworthy. But in politics the fact that you stick to your guns is something to mock and laugh at. The world powers lied and cheated to their own people to lay a trap against CB. While CB willingly walked into annihilation because it wanted to keep its promise.
An unreasonable militant entity that can only be trusted to be unreasonable. What's dangerous about that?

Quote:
You know what? I wouldn't have spent this much time arguing if the Union and AEU declared war on CB early on. It is ironic only HRL was honest with itself in which position it stands on. Had war being declared, Graham would have all the right in the world in tacking the unarmed Exia that time in the Middle East.
That's an oversimplication. If "war had been declared" it would have only added a little credibilty to a public backstabbing after a wanky and overly dramatic hostage release.

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All this declaration that CB is some sort of evil force that needed to be wiped from the face of the Earth, yet so little evidence to support it.
I never claimed they were "evil". Only a serious threat to a peaceful and well established world order that frankly didn't need them. Add in the fact that most of it's members are totally nuts or vapid, they have absolutely no business doing what they're doing.

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So the fact that you have no power over them is justification to attack them?
I don't know you at all, Wesley84. I have no means of controlling your actions, pressuring your family, catch and integrate your friends, or potentially attack your nation that harbor you. Is that justification for me to treat you as a threat?
To have power over someone is not a right; it is an ABUSE. If you think nations have the right to do what they want to forces they don't like, it is the first step towards world war.
I'm afraid I don't understand your meaning here.
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Old 2008-04-05, 11:07   Link #1030
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
They aren't completely untrustworthy. The very fact they have self-interests and aren't sucidial and insanes adds tremedously to their credibilty and confidence. Celestial Being is demonstratably suicidal and quite possibly insane, along with no obvious self-interests.
What do you mean, the CB being insane?
They charge into a trap because they don't want terrorists getting their hands on uranium. Last I checked, numerous action heroes have done exactly that in movies without being labeled suicidal.

And CB has MASSIVE self-interests. Each and everyone on board the ship genuinely want to stop wars by policing the world, because they all genuinely hate war. And they kept to that goal even after their own organisation was disintegrating. They didn't do it for money, they didn't do it for power. They did it because they believe they are right. They fight because they believe it was worth fighting for. On the other hand, the world powers throw troops at them so they can steal power for themselves.

And most importantly, CB is genuine to themselves and everyone else. Something the world powers (other than HRL) was completely incapable of.
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Old 2008-04-05, 11:32   Link #1031
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
What do you mean, the CB being insane?
They charge into a trap because they don't want terrorists getting their hands on uranium. Last I checked, numerous action heroes have done exactly that in movies without being labeled suicidal.
Well the fact they're essentionally taking on the entire planet for one thing. Sumeragi herself declared it was a suicide mission. Lockon didn't seem to have a problem with summary execution for the crimes he was committing. No one in Celestial Being seems to have a strong desire to live, unless they're simply naive enough to think they won't deservedly die for their actions.

Quote:
And CB has MASSIVE self-interests. Each and everyone on board the ship genuinely want to stop wars by policing the world, because they all genuinely hate war. And they kept to that goal even after their own organisation was disintegrating. They didn't do it for money, they didn't do it for power. They did it because they believe they are right. They fight because they believe it was worth fighting for. On the other hand, the world powers throw troops at them so they can steal power for themselves.

And most importantly, CB is genuine to themselves and everyone else. Something the world powers (other than HRL) was completely incapable of.
Basically they're religious fanatics without a homeland armed with Tactical-level weapons of mass destruction, wrapped in a conventional finish. That's a comforting thought.
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Old 2008-04-05, 11:39   Link #1032
EXEs
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post


I never claimed they were "evil". Only a serious threat to a peaceful and well established world order that frankly didn't need them. Add in the fact that most of it's members are totally nuts or vapid, they have absolutely no business doing what they're doing.


[Removed flame - 4Tran]

A peaceful world order? I think not. The war in Sri Lanka was there, even after 300 years. There are public bombings, shootings and kidnappings in the Middle East, just like there are now. Not so peaceful, if you ask me. And of course, if the world was so peaceful, then why the hell do Flags, Enacts, Tierens, etc exist? To fight, obviously. Celestial Being wanted to create peace by eliminating war with armed interventions, and they only fight when there is a conflict or when they are being attacked (The Thrones/Trinity siblings are an exception)

Calling CB's members insane or nuts means you've either haven't watched the show, or you weren't paying attention. Nearly all of them are fairly normal with the wish to stop war and fighting. However, (some of) the other side wanted war. Ali, for example, lives to fight, and he's a bit nuts, that's about it.

The members of Celestial Being were willing to die for their cause, and it takes bravery and determination, not a messed up mind.

Quote:
Originally posted by Westley84: Basically they're religious fanatics without a homeland armed with Tactical-level weapons of mass destruction, wrapped in a conventional finish. That's a comforting thought.
Religious? Not really. Setsuna believes there is no God, and the other members were not shown to be religious at all. And they came from the different factions (Allelujah came from the HRL, for example). And their "weapons of mass destruction" were used to stop conflicts, not actively seeking out innocent targets and eliminating them.
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Old 2008-04-05, 13:22   Link #1033
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might is right.

if CB is the last one standing in ep 52 then CB is the truuuuuuuuuuuuuuuth and vis-versa.
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Old 2008-04-05, 13:26   Link #1034
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Jesus Raptor help us, it's this idiot again.

A peaceful world order? I think not. The war in Sri Lanka was there, even after 300 years. There are public bombings, shootings and kidnappings in the Middle East, just like there are now. Not so peaceful, if you ask me. And of course, if the world was so peaceful, then why the hell do Flags, Enacts, Tierens, etc exist? To fight, obviously. Celestial Being wanted to create peace by eliminating war with armed interventions, and they only fight when there is a conflict or when they are being attacked (The Thrones/Trinity siblings are an exception)
The world is never peaceful and it never will be. Even with America playing world police sometimes there will be people who disagree and think the best way to deal with a situation where the other guy thinks you're wrong is to kill him to convince him otherwise. Those conflicts you describe there are small local conflicts, so in a large scale yes the world is relatively peaceful in the sense that the three power blocs have a common interest in maintaining the balance and not going to war (Space Elevators anyone?) Why would any nation risk losing everything just so they can take over the world when they're headed by rational, competent leaders?
Mobile suits exists so that those countries can defend their assets from rogue nations and terrorists, not to spread conflict.

Quote:
Calling CB's members insane or nuts means you've either haven't watched the show, or you weren't paying attention. Nearly all of them are fairly normal with the wish to stop war and fighting. However, (some of) the other side wanted war. Ali, for example, lives to fight, and he's a bit nuts, that's about it.

The members of Celestial Being were willing to die for their cause, and it takes bravery and determination, not a messed up mind.

. And their "weapons of mass destruction" were used to stop conflicts, not actively seeking out innocent targets and eliminating them.
Since when are has-been brainwashed child soldiers, drunks who have committed terrible crimes in the past, unstable dual personality genetic engineered super soldiers and androids normal? I'm sorry mate but your definition of Normal is pretty screwed up. The only normal person in CB is probably Lockon.

Their (Celestial Being's) cause is retarded, the fact that they are willing to die for basically stupid ideals, for nothing, just reinforces that they are not normal.
I think it is you who forgot to watch the show, what CB claimed, and what CB did were two different things. They claimed they wanted to end war and only attack those who start conflicts, but they indiscriminately pull the trigger w/o giving diplomacy a second chance. In Talibia they open fire on the Talibian army w/o waiting to see if the situation could be defused diplomatically, which both Talibia and the Union would have done before going to war and wasting billions of $ and destroying a country for silly reasons. Then in Moralia CB attacks a military EXERCISE which ends up crippling the country's economy and causes the deaths of quite a few civilians that would not have died as a result of the military exercise.
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Old 2008-04-05, 13:48   Link #1035
Wesley84
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Originally Posted by nutype View Post
might is right.

if CB is the last one standing in ep 52 then CB is the truuuuuuuuuuuuuuuth and vis-versa.
That's one way of looking at it. Make for a pretty crappy and depressing story though don't you think?
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Old 2008-04-05, 15:01   Link #1036
dahak
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Originally Posted by Vorenus View Post
Jamil while wearing a sunglasses to hide his past (from others and especially to himself since he was badly traumatized by war) doesn't act at all like the other masked characters in Gundam and doesn't have so much mystery about him since his whole past is revealed by the 5 first episodes.
Jamil isn't hiding his past. Or he might have done something simple like change his name. He seemed more to be using them as a distancing device [Reversing the British Armies advice on dealing with locals. ] to prevent his crew getting inside his emotional defenses.

Casval isn't really hiding his past behind Quatro's glasses [Pretty much everyone who knew him in the OYW recognises him without trouble.] so much as trying to put having been Cha behind him. To him by that point Cha was a mask which had served his purpose in killing the adult Zabis and Quatro was a way of making it possible for him to be a Federation officer [and then an AEUG one] without his father's heritage or Cha's servioce to Zeon getting in the way. It never really seemed more than a polite fiction. If he'd meant it to be more he'd have come up with a different colour scheme for his Rick Dias before the first episode of Zeta.

As for Graham, unless he's joined Celestial Being, I can't see a need for him to disguise his identity, so for the moment I'm going for hide scars as teh reason for his mask.
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Old 2008-04-05, 15:24   Link #1037
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
As I kept saying, unprovoked ideological attacks are quite acceptable in world politics. Everyone does it.
...pardon? Everyone? I know I never have, so your logical basis is already fallen through. And when did the US start bombing campaigns in the Soviet Union? There are two types of people in this world who use ideological terrorist attacks: those strong enough to fight off potential retaliations up to a point, and those who aren't.

The Soviet Union is an example of a nation that supported ideological movements in various parts of the world (IE the IRA). They could get away with it because they had nukes and a huge army, but you should still note that they never did a similar campaign against the US, because the US also not only had nukes but actually had the ability to deliver them (as opposed to the British arsenal, which was targeted almost exclusively at Moscow, or the French arsenal which had a severe lack of rance for land-based ICBMs, or the Russian arsenal which at various points was unlikely to even get off the launch pad in the numbers advertised).

Places like Afghanistan and Palestine are the other kind. And they get stomped, hard, when attacks go out. The attacks still go out, but you'll find that most leaders prefer not to put their countries into similar conditions as Palestine. If you assume that because the Union didn't outright declare its intentions to destroy CB when it knew that CB could grind it into the dust, it didn't care, there doesn't seem much else to say on the subject. It's pretty obvious that all three powers spent the 6+ monthes racing their tech and militaries to the point where they could beat CB.

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I keep mentioning how President Brian never got offended by CB's actions, and describes them as doing Union's duties for them. There simply wasn't any evidence that there was any outrage or anger on the part of the Union government concerning CB, up to the point when the Thrones start to blow up military bases indiscriminately.
You don't have to get a Pearl Harbor complex to recognize and oppose something as a threat to national security. Within six months of CB's arrival, the Union DID declare that it would try and destroy CB... should CB attack it. They even had that nifty Overflags squadron assembled, you may recall. That the Union has a different political priority (it's own stability, which the HRL doesn't have a problem with, as opposed to world leadership, which is the HRL's goal) doesn't mean they didn't view CB in terms of national interests.
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Union didn't try to steal the Gundams because CB was "wrong", Union never gave a damn if CB was wrong or not. Morality was only an issue to CB itself, all three world powers were only interested in politics and increasing military might.
...
I'm not even going to try and explain how CB's means and goals are just as much "politics" as the Powers. If you can't see that, congratulations. You have the world view of Saji Crossroads. I will say, however, that "politics" are just as much about "right and wrong" as anything else, and that CB's was dedicated to the end, not the means. Everyone in CB was shocked when Allelujah took the moral route and saved the elevator-part. Virtually all of CB's "moral" actions have been done to further their own goals, and that's the epitome of "politics."


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There was a split down the middle in public opinion concerning CB's legitimacy. It simply wasn't as cut-and-dry as you claim it was.
When were there pro-CB marches? Where was the support for CB after the people realized that CB couldn't be bargained or negotiated with? CB figures have been commenting on how they're making the world hate them since the beginning of the series. By the end of the first season, it's been said that CB's first phase was to make people hate them enough to put aside their own differences and unify. By the end of season 1, the people who think CB should be used are already a marginalized minority.



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Originally Posted by EXEs View Post
Jesus Raptor help us, it's this idiot again.
There was no call for that. Whether you agree with him or not, attack the arguments and not the man.

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A peaceful world order? I think not. The war in Sri Lanka was there, even after 300 years. There are public bombings, shootings and kidnappings in the Middle East, just like there are now.
Let's look at the world of 00, and look at the world of the middle of the century. Do you see MAD, armies constantly prepped for invasion, or wide-spread proxy-wars across three continents? No? Neither do I. The lines of the globe are more or less settled, MS attacks largely come from terrorists, and all three main powers are already working together in colony construction. Are there problems and conflicts? Sure.

Did Celestial Being's Earth Federation actually solve any of them? No, Azadistan is still seen as a powder keg after CB's interventions, the insurgencies were outright said to be biding their time until CB's disappearance, and Sri Lanka's situation that put forth the conflict never changed. CB didn't "fixed" arguments not by resolving the differences and situations that started them, but by blowing up both sides.
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Not so peaceful, if you ask me. And of course, if the world was so peaceful, then why the hell do Flags, Enacts, Tierens, etc exist? To fight, obviously.
How convenient that Celestial Being gave them an oponent. To think, all that time they were sitting around in their hangers, gathering dust!
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Celestial Being wanted to create peace by eliminating war with armed interventions, and they only fight when there is a conflict or when they are being attacked
And yet, how many underlying conflicts has Celestial Being actually solved? They didn't change the situation that saw the HRL act in the Sri Lanka issue, Liu Mei outright admits that the issues in the ME haven't been resolved, by destroying the economic bases of regions that depend on drugs or diamonds CB has impoverished multitudes of areas (which in itself is a common starter of conflicts). In fact, in almost every conflict that has been solved, it's been revealed that Celestial Being was outright used by the other powers working for their own interests. Later episode tells us that the events of Taribia were scripted by the Union, the AEU was planing a win-win scenario from CB intervention against PMC trust from the start.
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(The Thrones/Trinity siblings are an exception)
The Thrones are part of Celestial Being. Even if they weren't before, the Observers made them so. Infact, it was noted that it was the Thrones that succeded in accomplishing CB's First Phase, which was to unify the world.
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Calling CB's members insane or nuts means you've either haven't watched the show, or you weren't paying attention. Nearly all of them are fairly normal with the wish to stop war and fighting. However, (some of) the other side wanted war.
...you consider a child tricked by a phony-religious man into killing his parents and then growing up into a hardon for a war machine not nuts? Or Mr. Double-Personality-Who-Is-A-Homicidal-Maniac-Who-Loves-To-Kill, or "I don't know what gender I am" Humanity-crisis boy?

CB is full of nuts. They're more like misfits, really. The most normal of them are the bridge-crew, who get killed off.

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Ali, for example, lives to fight, and he's a bit nuts, that's about it.
Congratulations. A mercenary un-afiliated with any of the three powers is a war-starter (and has been implied to have been under the indirect command of Alejandro Corner, who has been setting conflicts for his own gains). Now, when have Graham, Katagiri, Sergei, Soma, or Patrick, the main faces for the powers, gone and said they want more war?
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The members of Celestial Being were willing to die for their cause, and it takes bravery and determination, not a messed up mind.
Ah, I see the problem here. You're an idealist.

No, it does not "take" bravery and determination to die for a cause. Beer or drugs is a ancient tradition for pushing people into the field of battle. An idealogue can be willing to die for a cause. Mental health is rarely a factor, because being insane and being dedicated aren't mutually exclusive, nor are bravery and willingness to die. More than one suicide bomber across history has been some child with little concept of death, or a soul with down syndrome or other mental incapacitation who got put into a suicide vest with no choice in the matter.

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Religious? Not really. Setsuna believes there is no God, and the other members were not shown to be religious at all. And they came from the different factions (Allelujah came from the HRL, for example).
Setsuna has been shown to be the grips of theological doubt, with the potential to shift either way in the future (depending on how his relationship with Marina goes). Lockon comes from Ireland, which is one of the most Catholic nations on the planet. I don't get where Allelujah coming from the HRL has anything to do with it, because Asia has plenty of religions. Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, and many, many more. Few places have more religions than Asia.


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And their "weapons of mass destruction" were used to stop conflicts, not actively seeking out innocent targets and eliminating them.
Louise Halavey would like a word with you. And the citizens of Moralia would like to ask how a joint military-exercise counts as a conflict. Same with the family of soldiers stationed at bases CB attacked: who were those bases provoking?
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Old 2008-04-05, 16:32   Link #1038
brightman
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Join Date: Apr 2002
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Originally Posted by monstert View Post
More like to hide his real identity, along with the name change. (Though I'm still hoping the movie will declare him a clone.)
That's Fukuda and Morosawa's reason for giving him a mask... But what is NEO's reason? He really thought he was Neo Roanoke... He had no reason to hide that fact either.

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Originally Posted by Vorenus View Post
Didn't Rau have a body aging faster than usual due to the fact he is a clone with short-telomeres ? Mwu and Kira were quite shocked when his face was revealed. He might have had a nice face in the non-masked flashbacks we had from him, but it was several years before Seed, and Rey was going to end up the same.
The Special Edition movies showed that his face was perfectly fine.

I guess he WAS supposed to have an effed up face in the TV series, but Fukuda being the nice guy he was probably wanted to show his face so people would recognize Rey in GSD...

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As for Neo, Mwu being the sort of living legend he should be as "The Hawk of Endymion", I would bet his face is pretty well known by a lot of people in the OMNI Military he was originally from and was back as Neo.
The risk of people recognizing him and shouting "You're a MWU !" was too high...
And it just looks fearsome for the commander of a black-squad like Phantom Pain to wear a mask, a mask always adding to the character charisma in Gundam (by actually borrowing Char's).
So I guess the guys in charge of brainwashing decided to make him think that he needs to wear a mask to hide his identity? Possible...

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Jamil while wearing a sunglasses to hide his past (from others and especially to himself since he was badly traumatized by war) doesn't act at all like the other masked characters in Gundam and doesn't have so much mystery about him since his whole past is revealed by the 5 first episodes.
He acts a bit like Schwarz, actually. The mentor type character who hides his identity/past from others as well as himself. And Cronicle didn't have much mystery either.
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Old 2008-04-05, 19:22   Link #1039
SoldierOfDarkness
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: From the deepest abyss in the world, where you think?
Age: 28
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Originally Posted by Revolutionist View Post
The world is never peaceful and it never will be. Even with America playing world police sometimes there will be people who disagree and think the best way to deal with a situation where the other guy thinks you're wrong is to kill him to convince him otherwise. Those conflicts you describe there are small local conflicts, so in a large scale yes the world is relatively peaceful in the sense that the three power blocs have a common interest in maintaining the balance and not going to war (Space Elevators anyone?) Why would any nation risk losing everything just so they can take over the world when they're headed by rational, competent leaders?
Mobile suits exists so that those countries can defend their assets from rogue nations and terrorists, not to spread conflict.

.
To add on to Revolutionist it was stated in the offical files that Aeolia designed the Solar Array system, the elevators, AND the mobile suits. If I recall correctly the suits were designed as a defense unit for the elevators.
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Old 2008-04-05, 20:04   Link #1040
Dean_the_Young
Has a life IRL
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness View Post
To add on to Revolutionist it was stated in the offical files that Aeolia designed the Solar Array system, the elevators, AND the mobile suits. If I recall correctly the suits were designed as a defense unit for the elevators.
As we saw, after all, the oh-so conveniently timed terrorist attack of episode 1 was aimed at the elevator. Defense mobile suits are always needed.
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