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Old 2008-04-09, 23:54   Link #41
Voduar
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Your kidding right? What commander doesn't have to treat his subordinates as pawns sometimes, that's the name of the game in war, and its very understandable.
Hrmm, if I were wiser I'd let this pass, so I will only respond with this: When several of your friends are enlisted, I sincerely hope their commanders act with a bit more consideration of the value of their lives.

On topic, I will remind me you that throughout Lelouch barely cares about his rebellion or his Black Knights, culminating in him flat out abandoning them all in the middle of a fight to save one apparent parapalegic. Now, if he'd just sent someone to assist her, I would view it differently, but he apparently fragged the battle by his flight.

To be a little more specific on why he is a hypcorite, it isn't just that he values people differently. Its that he does it so dramatically. He seems to have no problems slaughtering Britannians that do not go to his own school, and he has very few qualms about letting Japanese die in the aftermath of his military acts. Yet, he stalls his own military operations a number of times due to Suzaku, possibly leading to great losses. Also, he is perfectly fine totally subverting someone's better interest with Geass in the vast majority of cases, but again he lets the Suzaku thing screw with his judgement, and this leads to tragedy. Consider how different this story would be if around ep 12 Lelouch had ordered Suzaku, "Live and die for Nunally." Lives would have been saved, and he could get that peaceful world for his sister with the confidence that she has a tireless protector.

Perhaps my point is better proven by how little he cared for his own rebellion. Think of any moment in the series where the 11s are not ones he has met already or are not famous. He spends the lives of those with neither concern nor apparent interest. What strikes me as horribly egregious, however, is again how little he has invested in this fight that he runs off so calmly, leaving his pawns to their own fate. The hypocrisy, while understandable, is not terribly forgiveable, as it seems to indicate he has a low opinion of his allies, separate from his disinterest in their survival.

Sorry, long post. Pawns arent pawns when they have names.
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Old 2008-04-09, 23:57   Link #42
KrimzonStriker
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Huh? Friends? Since when? I don't see Zero drinking a couple of rounds with Tamaki during happy hour, do you?

Your argument loses weight in that he didn't really treat any of his subordinates differently then any other commander would have. And he certainly didn't trust them with his identity, so why reveal more clues by sending them off to search for Nunnally? Especially in a Geass related situation which they would obviously be unable to handle?

I think I already addressed all your points about how he treats the people close to him, and how that makes him more human. You not really countering me here.
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Old 2008-04-10, 00:15   Link #43
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At most you could say he treated Kallen as a friend (of sorts) at Ashford, not because he knew her name but because they were both in a common environment (student council) and "off-duty"...but really, while assuming the Zero persona and the "business is business" attitude that goes along with it (together with dramatic exclamations or funky hand/arm motions, of course), why would he treat them as anything but subordinates ?
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Old 2008-04-10, 00:25   Link #44
ashlay
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At most you could say he treated Kallen as a friend (of sorts) at Ashford, not because he knew her name but because they were both in a common environment (student council) and "off-duty"...but really, while assuming the Zero persona and the "business is business" attitude that goes along with it (together with dramatic exclamations or funky hand/arm motions, of course), why would he treat them as anything but subordinates ?
episode 13 severely disagrees with you on Lelouch handling Kallen differently as Lelouch and as Zero. >_>

but yes, Lelouch at least considers Kallen a friend, just like Rivalz or Shirley.
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Old 2008-04-10, 00:27   Link #45
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episode 13 severely disagrees with you. >_>

but yes, Lelouch at least considers Kallen a friend, just like Rivalz or Shirley.
That was a moment of personal crisis and doubt though...he more or less overcame that later, didn't he? He may actually care about them beyond their status as subordinates, but he doesn't really make it known that much, or at all, while at "work".
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Old 2008-04-10, 00:29   Link #46
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That was a moment of personal crisis and doubt though...he more or less overcame that later, didn't he? He may actually care about them beyond their status as subordinates, but he doesn't really make it known that much, or at all, while at "work".
That was a moment of doubt for Kallen, not him. You could say that he was reaffirming himself through her, but that's still far more compasition/trust than a mere subordinate. So he made it shown to her, at the very least.
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Old 2008-04-10, 00:33   Link #47
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That was a moment of doubt for Kallen, not him. You could say that he was reaffirming himself through her, but that's still far more compasition/trust than a mere subordinate. So he made it shown to her, at the very least.
Well yes, I think that could indeed be said, considering what had just happened to him, even after he had decided to continue along his path. Sometimes people do that in real life and I think that applies there.

I guess his being in such a state allowed him to "open up more" to her, as a friend,, but there weren't too many such instances of that...and that was rarely seen in his public behavior. I'm not saying he didn't care, internally at least, but talking about what he actually did when he assumed the Zero persona.

Last edited by Kusaja; 2008-04-10 at 01:09.
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Old 2008-04-10, 00:34   Link #48
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Your argument loses weight in that he didn't really treat any of his subordinates differently then any other commander would have.
The degree to which you are factually incorrect on this is physically unpleasant. Sorry, but that had to be said. That said, I am aware bringing even the shadow of reality into a story with an immortal pizza obsessed witch is somewhat iffy, so I will make my point brief.

If you want to see his command style differing from that of one that actually works, rewatch ep7. Alternatively, even in ep1 its questionable if people that actually fight would tolerate his capricious command style, though its a bit more forgiveable (for them) in sheer horrid desperation.

The point I am attempting to get across is that while one may treat one's troops as pieces on a board, they are in fact people. People with guns. People who need to have faith that you are acting in a best interest for their goals, diverse as those may be, conflict to conflict. If they do not believe you are acting in that interest, they will not fight. So, Lelouch's open disinterest in his own side is an unbelievably poor choice of flaws, as real humans will not tolerate being valued as pawns. They may BE pawns, but its a bad idea to remind them of that. The series steps back to believable when they get Todo on their side, as he probably buffers the orders a bit as they go down the line.

Anywho, for the most part I found Lelouch to be a good Greek tragedy character, as he has great qualities with incredible flaws. His success/downfall, should hopefully prove entertaining, especially if he does both.
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Old 2008-04-10, 00:34   Link #49
ashlay
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That was a moment of personal crisis and doubt though...he more or less overcame that later, didn't he?
The point is Lelouch always treats Kallen as a friend, whether he's at school or whether he's being Zero. That's why in 13 he tells her what the future holds and tells her she can just walk out if she likes, and why his thank you "was from the bottom of my heart" as Lelouch puts it in the best phrase awards on DVD magazine I.

That's why he acts like a jerk in front of her in the cave at the end of 25. That's why he keeps teasing her at school. And that's why he trusts her with the Guren Nishiki (see episode 9 preview)

In other words he readily goes out of his way and actually hurts himself to try and make her happier, just like with Shirley or Rivalz or Euphie. That didn't change because she's also his subordinate.
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Old 2008-04-10, 00:40   Link #50
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The point is Lelouch always treats Kallen as a friend, whether he's at school or whether he's being Zero. That's why in 13 he tells her what the future holds and tells her she can just walk out if she likes, and why his thank you "was from the bottom of my heart" as Lelouch puts it in the best phrase awards on DVD magazine I.

That's why he acts like a jerk in front of her in the cave at the end of 25. That's why he keeps teasing her at school. And that's why he trusts her with the Guren Nishiki (see episode 9 preview)

Lelouch thinks of Kallen as his friend, and that means he readily goes out of his way and actually hurts himself to try and make her happier, just like with Shirley or Rivalz or Euphie. That doesn't change because she's also his subordinate.
I'm not so sure about that in 25 (unless you apply a rather roundabout interpretation and explanation for his behavior, which I suppose you could...barring whatever R2 might indicate), but I guess your point is valid for the other examples...still, I can't exactly say that such friendliness is the rule, to say the least, especially in the other cases, or that it's really all that common while he's Zero.

Last edited by Kusaja; 2008-04-10 at 01:10.
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Old 2008-04-10, 00:50   Link #51
ashlay
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I'm not so sure about that in 25 (unless you apply a rather roundabout interpretation and explanation for his behavior, which I suppose you could...barring whatever R2 might indicate), but I guess your point is valid for the other examples...still, I can't exactly say that such friendless is the rule, to say the least, especially in the other cases, or that it's really all that common while he's Zero.
Oh come on, Lelouch isn't just using the Order, it was all a crock of lies.

to take one example of Lelouch doing the exact same thing multiple times in the first season, lets look at episode 8:
Euphie: Is that why you killed Clovis?
Lelouch: No, it was because he was a child of the Emperor...come to think of it, you are too. *points a gun at her*

Now is Lelouch killing people simply because they're offspring of Charles? obviously not.

Exact same idea in 25. Is Lelouch "using" the Japanese anymore than they're "using" him? Is he putting them in danger while he leisurely sits safely at Ashford Academy? Did he leave the battle in 25 to escape danger? Well of course not. Ougi said it himself in 11, Lelouch can't see his own allies as mere chess pieces, he knows hate and so he also knows sorrow.

If this wasn't the case, Kallen wouldn't be there saving him in 26, and Lelouch wouldn't be giving Kallen his jacket in 27.
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Old 2008-04-10, 01:00   Link #52
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Oh come on, Lelouch isn't just using the Order, it was all a crock of lies.

to take one example of Lelouch doing the exact same thing multiple times in the first season, lets look at episode 8:
Euphie: Is that why you killed Clovis?
Lelouch: No, it was because he was a child of the Emperor...come to think of it, you are too. *points a gun at her*

Now is Lelouch killing people simply because they're offspring of Charles? obviously not.

Exact same idea in 25. Is Lelouch "using" the Japanese anymore than they're "using" him? Is he putting them in danger while he leisurely sits safely at Ashford Academy? Did he leave the battle in 25 to escape danger? Well of course not. Ougi said it himself in 11, Lelouch can't see his own allies as mere chess pieces, he knows hate and so he also knows sorrow.

If this wasn't the case, Kallen wouldn't be there saving him in 26, and Lelouch wouldn't be giving Kallen his jacket in 27.
Hey, I'm not going quite that far.

I'm not implying that he's "using" the Order as he stated then and there, no...just that I'm not sure at least part of him didn't temporarily go into "and so what if I am?"-mode, not necessarily out of friendship and sacrifice but out of pride or even hubris. He's in a tough spot and didn't want to spend any time to explain himself. Even if just momentarily. Again, I'm waiting on more R2 info, if applicable.
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Old 2008-04-10, 01:06   Link #53
ashlay
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Hey, I'm not going quite that far.

I'm not implying that he's "using" the Order as he stated then and there, no...just that I'm not sure at least part of him didn't temporarily go into "and so what if I am?"-mode, not necessarily out of friendship and sacrifice but out of pride or even hubris. He's in a tough spot and didn't want to spend time to explain himself. Even if just momentarily. Again, I'm waiting on more R2 info, if applicable.
I'd say that's what he was doing while addressing Suzaku, disjointedly stating all the things he believes and trying to do everything he possibly can to get Suzaku to help him save Nunnally, even going so far as to tell Suzaku to go ahead and shoot him and sticking a fake bomb on his chest. But of course, he lost because he assumed Suzaku was still thinking under the pretenses of "the world can be changed with pretty words alone", when Suzaku was in fact more than willing to simply immobilize him and use him as a bartering chip. >_>

But the Kallen section is pure kneejerk reaction to absolve her of responsibilty. "I'm evil, so you don't have to feel guilty for any of what happened or anything that's about to take place"
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Old 2008-04-10, 01:20   Link #54
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But the Kallen section is pure kneejerk reaction to absolve her of responsibilty. "I'm evil, so you don't have to feel guilty for any of what happened or anything that's about to take place"
The way I see it, pride could also play a role there: since he didn't have the time nor the luxury to properly explain things to her, after she asked if he was just using them (and herself)...his reaction was that he might as well say yes, even painting himself as the bad guy and confirming her fears in effect, since his priority was to convince or pressure Suzaku and continue searching for Nunnally..

The result is similar, if not identical, even if the intent differs somewhat...did he actively care so much as to consider her reaction and its implications at that particular moment? That's what I doubt. He could have, but...
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Old 2008-04-10, 09:47   Link #55
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The degree to which you are factually incorrect on this is physically unpleasant. Sorry, but that had to be said. That said, I am aware bringing even the shadow of reality into a story with an immortal pizza obsessed witch is somewhat iffy, so I will make my point brief.

If you want to see his command style differing from that of one that actually works, rewatch ep7. Alternatively, even in ep1 its questionable if people that actually fight would tolerate his capricious command style, though its a bit more forgiveable (for them) in sheer horrid desperation.

The point I am attempting to get across is that while one may treat one's troops as pieces on a board, they are in fact people. People with guns. People who need to have faith that you are acting in a best interest for their goals, diverse as those may be, conflict to conflict. If they do not believe you are acting in that interest, they will not fight. So, Lelouch's open disinterest in his own side is an unbelievably poor choice of flaws, as real humans will not tolerate being valued as pawns. They may BE pawns, but its a bad idea to remind them of that. The series steps back to believable when they get Todo on their side, as he probably buffers the orders a bit as they go down the line.

Anywho, for the most part I found Lelouch to be a good Greek tragedy character, as he has great qualities with incredible flaws. His success/downfall, should hopefully prove entertaining, especially if he does both.
I'm factually incorrect? Tell me what 'facts' have you presented? Because that's ultimately what we come back to, evidence from the series. If you want to stick by real world logic then that's fine too though.

Being a commander is being laden with responsibility, and getting close or emotionally attached to your subordinates is not one of them, nor when considering the collateral damage one needs to make in order to achieve ones defined objectives, because that clouds a persons judgment as noted when people he did care about got involved. If one weren't willing to sacrifice in order to complete their objectives then I would imagine we would have no war in general, because no one would be willing to fight it. Did they have faith in him even when he was disinterested with them personally? Yes they did, because of that one factor that any good commander needs above all else, being able to achieve results. If he didn't do that there would be no point in following him, but he does and that's enough for the Order to stick by him because he provides that chance for them to succeed. And when exactly does he remind them there just pawns? Does he ever actually call them that? No, he gave them specific combat designations and orders that allows them the obtain victory, and that is the fundamental necessity for any cohesive military unit. I don't see why you would condemn him for that, how he does things isn't something uncommon within any military force, its actually the structure in which they abide by, and probably the most fair and efficient way of carrying out their function, one based on skill and merit and nothing more.

In any event, how you view Lelouch is your own business, how you choose to portray him to others is another matter entirely, and in no way is your judgment suddenly the de-facto truth of who he actually is.
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Old 2008-04-10, 10:48   Link #56
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Code Geass...honestly one of the most engaging, entertaining anime I've ever watched. However, similar to one of my other favourite animes which also suffers from massive popularity (The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya), I really can't help disparaging the populist elements of the show which seem to possess so much of the fanbase.

Lelouch is Code Geass's populist element. Many of Lelouch's greatest fans don't seem to realize that they are his fans only because Lelouch is portrayed by design as an extremely sympathetic character--indeed the most empathetic character. Lelouch comes across as 'realistic' (in the moral sense) and 'internally conflicted' not because he actually possesses those traits by any objective measure, but because his sense of morality and level of confliction is more or less in line with that of the general audience, and the general audience likes to think of itself as 'realistic' and 'internally conflicted'. Lelouch is empathetic because he appeals to the audience's ideal of themselves, and as such becomes an avatar for wish-fulfilment and escapism within the anime. The result is an overzealous willingness to label the oppressive Britannian Empire an absolute 'evil'; Suzaku who is a major obstacle a hated, 'worthless' existance'; the people whom Lelouch discards without remorse for his own ends mere 'pawns'; and the very actions which cause Lelouch to react in a manner that could be called 'conflicted' 'necessary'. Because Lelouch refuses to justify his actions and motivations to himself, the audience feels it is necessary for them to justify them for him.

Lelouch is a flawed though charismatic character who is loved for his flaws over his charisma. Because his only strengths are a super natural ability whom no one can blame him for and a developed, evidently superior intellect (hey, don't you know? Most people think they're smarter than average, too), Lelouch is called a 'realistic', 'balanced' protagonist (as opposed to a 'stereotypical' ideal), whose abilities and persona do not seem to be out of the reach of the average man. Because Lelouch has been beaten down by the world, his liberation from and subsequent condemnation of a 'cursed, powerless existance' gives voice to the niggling little thoughts in the backs of the viewers' heads, allowing them to imagine that it's the world's fault too, that they seem destined to live a small, meaningless existance. Lelouch, who has the power to change his reality handed to him on a silver platter, tells the viewers that it's okay to just wait, to remain as they are, that improving one's lot in life is not a matter of improving oneself as a person but rather waiting for the world to just hand over what one naturally deserved all along. This is why he is loved! "Lelouch is me! Flaws and all! And not only does it seem like he will win, he deserves to win! So to do I deserve to win, over all the evil that has oppressed me, and over all those moral hypocrites of the world."

Lelouch is the manifestation of an invested interest on the part of the audience for him to succeed as a flawed being. This investment narrows their view. This investment limits them to watching the show entirely from his perspective, with the mantra "Lelouch must be right, because he is flawed!". This investment makes it a pain in the ass to enter any discussion of the show attempting to find and share a simple appreciation for a damned good story.

As for what Lulu means to me, I'd agree with Voduar. Lelouch is the quintessential tragic hero, and I derive carthasis from his realization of catastrophes borne of good intentions.
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Old 2008-04-10, 11:01   Link #57
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Well, I won't speak for anyone else, but I'll say this much, I like Lelouch when he kicked a lot of ass more then when he restrained himself personally, even when he went to save Nunnally I was like "WTH, finish the Rebellion first man, you can still win!!" or when he didn't just kill Suzaku a number of times. That he doesn't make excuses for his actions is also a strength and a weakness, because unlike a certain someone *cough* Suzaku *cough* he chooses not to delude himself for the most part, while at the same time inviting more of a burden on his resolve. I choose not to think of Lelouch in terms of either right or wrong for the most part, simply assessing him by the most pragmatic and effective means in which he achieves decently successful results. That he's human or flawed doesn't make him right or wrong, it just makes him understandable, and that's the underlying strong point of the show because its all about gray areas instead of simply black or white.
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Old 2008-04-10, 11:10   Link #58
ashlay
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Code Geass...honestly one of the most engaging, entertaining anime I've ever watched. However, similar to one of my other favourite animes which also suffers from massive popularity (The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya), I really can't help disparaging the populist elements of the show which seem to possess so much of the fanbase.

Lelouch is Code Geass's populist element.
I can't really see how you can call Lelouch a populist element Sol Falling, seeing as how he's such a break from the standard mold in this genre. (the standard mold more or less being Kallen if she was male.) Unless that was just a commentary on protagonists in general. >_>

but otherwise nice points, Lelouch is indeed enjoyable to watch because he is so flawed, just like pretty much all the characters in this show, by episode 26 Suzaku has become a character who can't simply be dismissed, and thinking anyone deserves anything in this show is the wrong way to look at things. Taniguchi said it himself, people take things for granted too much these days, when in fact you should have to work hard and continue to strive for your goals.
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Last edited by ashlay; 2008-04-10 at 16:17.
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Old 2008-04-10, 14:48   Link #59
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I can't really see how you can call Lelouch a populist element Sol Falling, seeing as how he's such a break from the standard mold in this genre. (the standard mold more or less being Kallen if she was male.) Unless that was just a commentary on protagonists in general. >_>
I think what Sol Falling meant by that can be summarized in his sentence here:
Quote:
Lelouch is the manifestation of an invested interest on the part of the audience for him to succeed as a flawed being.
The audience wants to cheer for the protagonist. We want to imagine ourselves in his shoes and feel epic by association, breaking free from the restraints of our comparatively banal lives.

However, we also recognize that many protagonists are highly unrelatable. So many leading men are paladins--veritable paragons of truth and justice, goody-two-shoes, and in many respects a fairy-tale prince. As viewers, we can at least recognize that many (most) of us do not rise to that standard. We're petty, we're emotional, we let stupid, irrational things get in the way of better judgment. We break, we heal, we make mistakes, we miss our expectations of ourselves.

Lelouch is no paladin. He's very human, and so it is far easier for us to see ourselves as him. We let ourselves get carried along on his roller coaster path to his goals because we trust that, despite his failures along his chosen path, he will succeed. By corollary, despite our failings in life, we the viewers will also find a way to come out on top.
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Old 2008-04-10, 14:52   Link #60
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So long as Sol doesn't going around trying to enforce a standard of good and evil or right and wrong on anybody it's all good from my point of view
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