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Old 2008-04-10, 16:04   Link #61
Sol Falling
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hm, not quite sure I can say I'm not. The thing is, so many people assert their own standard of good and evil that 'the Britannian Empire is bad', that 'Suzaku is wrong', that 'Lelouch's manipulative actions are necessary' in these threads about Code Geass, when things actually aren't so black and white. And their primary motivation for holding these opinions is because they want Lelouch to win and think Lelouch deserves to win. It's pretty unreasonable.

When I watched episode 22, I was absolutely stunned. Struck dumb by the utter, pointless tragedy of it all. Redemption for both Lelouch and Suzaku, and Euphemia's person and ultimately her life, were all dashed in a single moment. That was the moment that defined Code Geass as a tragedy for me.

But when I went online to share and define and appreciate that feeling with other people, I saw all over the place various assertions of "it wouldn't have worked anyway". There were people who were such diehard fanboys of Lelouch's 'Zero' persona, who were so invested in the idea of Lelouch rising in violent rebellion against a collosal empire to slay his father, that they refused to allow themselves to see the tremendous loss that a couple careless words had cost so many people. It was obnoxious, to say the least.

These people are allowing their personal identification with a (not even a realistic image of) a single character to hinder their ability, and that of other people, to appreciate a good story. In the end it would be true to say that I can't force anybody otherwise, and maybe shouldn't try to futilely push against the opinion of a majority. I'm not gonna pretend that they're not violating my own standard of good, evil, right, and wrong, though.
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Old 2008-04-10, 16:15   Link #62
KrimzonStriker
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It's a personal taste, nothing more, there's nothing to really define Good or Evil in any general sense, only what people value themselves. They like Lelouch and hate Suzaku, that's basically what it comes down too.

Oh the tragedy of Episode 22 was a big time loss, no doubt about that. But you know what, if people can relate to Lelouch they can also relate to his confirmation of the fact that nothing else can be done about it now, that the only thing left to do is make the most of it and keep moving forward. As for the cross examination of 22... it really didn't look like it would work out in all practical sense with the current value system of Britannia. That doesn't take away from the tragedy of what happened, but the analysis of the SAZ is more of a separate assessment from the implications of what transpired after Euphie went Beserk, that's just my view on it anyway.

I like to think I appreciate the story fine myself, like I said I try not to force any standard on any of the characters or the setting though, and go with a reasonable and pragmatic mind frame whenever I tackle any issue regarding the series.
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Old 2008-04-10, 16:30   Link #63
ashlay
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I don't really agree with you Krimzon, the entire point of tragedy is that it wasn't inevitable, that one simple decision at some point, one less careless word, could have averted everything that occurred.

You've seen the DS game and Lost Colors, and you know what Lelouch and Euphie and Suzaku or capable of. There was a road to happiness.


That's what's so tragic about everything that's happened so far: Did anyone desire this outcome? If Lelouch and Suzaku hadn't kept things from one another all those times, would they still be standing in that cave pointing guns at each other? Overriding everything at the end of the first season with concepts such as morality and fate only hurts the entire point of having these massive coincidences, of having family kill each other and friend turn against friend.
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Old 2008-04-10, 16:33   Link #64
Dann of Thursday
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Well, temporary happiness in a small area from the looks of Lost Colors, though it was still rather vague.

There are no coincidences. There is only Murphy's Law.
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Old 2008-04-10, 16:37   Link #65
KrimzonStriker
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Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
I don't really agree with you Krimzon, the entire point of tragedy is that it wasn't inevitable, that one simple decision at some point, one less careless word, could have averted everything that occurred.

You've seen the DS game and Lost Colors, and you know what Lelouch and Euphie and Suzaku or capable of. There was a road to happiness.


That's what's so tragic about everything that's happened so far: Did anyone desire this outcome? If Lelouch and Suzaku hadn't kept things from one another all those times, would they still be standing in that cave pointing guns at each other? Overriding everything at the end of the first season with concepts such as morality and fate only hurts the entire point of having these massive coincidences, of having family kill each other and friend turn against friend.

Wait, what, since when did I say what happened during Episode 22 wasn't a tragedy or couldn't have ended better had things been different? I simply focused solely on the issue of the SAZ itself, and the practicality of its implementation. And from what I could assess, I didn't think it was likely, possible of course, but not likely by any stretch of the means. And doesn't Lost Colors also have a bunch of endings that were never going to happen in the show but they put it in for fun anyway? That's not something to base the likelihood of the SAZ's success in my view.

I didn't say that, I actually said everything what you just did, that the whole thing was a tragic affair on a personal level. But I offered another explanation that moping over what could have happened doesn't change what did happen, and that the only thing left for anyone is to move on and try to pick up the pieces, to work toward a better future and put these adversities in their life where they should be, the past. Otherwise no one would be able to keep going.
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Old 2008-04-10, 17:02   Link #66
Kamel
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You know wouldn’t it be interesting if in the end it turned out that Yuffie killing spree was no coincidence and in reality someone made it happen. For example VV or CC influenced Lulu’s actions or the whole incident was just fabricated memories and there was other geass user involved, we know now that at least Emperor or someone from his side can play with peoples minds and memories to that level. I mean while objectively I can't really call it a serious possibility sometimes, just sometimes I can't stop thinking that the whole situation was to bizarre a coincidence even for this series standards so who knows?
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Old 2008-04-10, 17:05   Link #67
Dann of Thursday
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The massacre happened. C.C. didn't know entirely what was going on at all. V.V. is certainly a possibility, but I think it was just a random accident.
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Old 2008-04-10, 17:07   Link #68
KrimzonStriker
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Mao's appearance beforehand basically established what eventually happened for Lelouch, that it happened at the worst possible moment isn't something anyone seemed to have been able to predict. Hell, even the Emperor was surprised and he's like the omniscient mastermind of the series >_>
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Old 2008-04-10, 17:10   Link #69
Dann of Thursday
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Well, he didn't seem so much surprised as happy something happened. He seemed to be thinking Lelouch would pull something like this.
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Old 2008-04-10, 17:17   Link #70
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I thought his words were 'That fool actually did it!!!" if I recall?
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Old 2008-04-10, 17:18   Link #71
Dann of Thursday
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I have "That man, he finally did it." Meh, he was happy that was all. Lelouch isn't really like that though.
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Old 2008-04-10, 17:24   Link #72
KrimzonStriker
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Well, like I said, Lelouch treads a fine line, that he brought up the 'joke' alongside what he was actually planning on doing pretty much tells me he probably considered doing this before disregarding it and going with the needle-gun plan. (The fact that is was also so convenient an example pretty much confirms it for me) Though I guess C.C was right after all, he was willing to be shot but unwilling to fire
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Old 2008-04-10, 17:33   Link #73
Avisch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
Mao's appearance beforehand basically established what eventually happened for Lelouch, that it happened at the worst possible moment isn't something anyone seemed to have been able to predict. Hell, even the Emperor was surprised and he's like the omniscient mastermind of the series >_>
Not just that. But what C.C. said at the beginning of the series
"You will become part of a different time, different life, etc"

What she's saying is just another way of saying "You will be isolated".

And to those who replied to my comment on the first page (Lelouch cares about people and such). I was trying to say that Lelouch is indeed upset when he sees people die needlessly.
Examples: Him witnessing the civillians getting shot in episode 1, Feeling emotion over the fact that he had a hand in the death of Shirley's father.

And to Sol: Interesting point on Geass's popularity. I can't really comment now (I need to read it more)
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Old 2008-04-10, 17:49   Link #74
Kamel
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I was thinking for a long time as to where to put this but in the end I think it might belong here

What always worried me the most about this series was its superficial similarity to death note. In both cases we have protagonists which stray from what general standards of society could ever call “moral”. I remember reading that Death note ending was created when some guy from the publishing company or something said that he will publish the series but Light has to be “punished at the end” as it seems we can not have “demoralizing” manga/anime in main stream Japanese media.
While I considered Lights end fitting I really dread that Lulu will reach similar end simply because (“evil must be punished” killing innocent is wrong” “violence is not the answer”). I would not mind him dieing a tragic death, but all in all it would leave a bad taste in my mouth if at the end he was reduced to the pathetic criminal who is “punished” in his final moments, there was much good in him , and sort of dark nobility. He may deserve to die for all the things he did, but he does not deserve “swimming lessons”.
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Old 2008-04-10, 18:18   Link #75
Leo_Otaku
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I don't want Lulu to die at all he makes the series ^-^
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Old 2008-04-10, 18:25   Link #76
Aquaman OS
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Lelouch is not like Light. I wouldn't worry about similar endings.

Lelouch is at heart a generally kind person who wants the best for his sister and friends as well as some vengence for a horrible wrong brought upon him.

Light is just a total asshole who doesn't actually care for anyone else ever and is incapable of having a realtionship with another person that doesn't involve using them for his plans and then killing them. Not to mention Light's whole motivation was that he's bored and thinks the current world wasn't good enough for the great Light Yagami to work in.

Britannia is a real problem and threat to Geass's world. There was nothing wrong with DN's world, other than in Light's eyes the world wasn't bowing to him.
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Old 2008-04-10, 21:00   Link #77
Masterkeyes2
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Aquaman summed it up pretty well for me. The problem with the CG world is the fact that survival of the fittest is the main ideal of the world. While that may exist somewhat in our world it isn't to a huge extreme plus we aren't ruled by a monarchy for the most part and our major world powers have some form of democracy enabling change. That is where the main difference for Light and Lelouch differs from.

At first I agreed with Light's ideal that the world needed justice but he could of done that by simply joining the Police Force which would of been the right thing to do. He could use his intelligence to catch criminals and put them safely behind bars.

Lelouch however couldn't really go with getting the throne because he was forcibly removed, even if he went back I doubt that his father would ever let him have a chance to become Emperor. Also the only way for him to change the world would of to become Emperor and try and change national policies.

Another big thing is how Lelouch and Light view people. Lelouch for one realizes that he would never be able to go against Brittianian alone hence the Black Knights. Light however attempted to do it alone because he viewed himself as a God, the few times he did use people he would of killed after he was done with them.

I am not sure about Lelouch but I read somewhere that the reason Light could never have a romantic relationship with anyone is because he views everyone as inferior. No one is equal.

Lelouch I am not to sure about it. He could view someone as his equal (C.C. maybe?) but I doubt that every single person in his eyes are not good enough for him, he wouldn't be able to go so far for Nunnally if that was case.

Anywho thats my two cents for that issue.

One question I have though about Lelouch-what the hell was he doing in the three years in between the invasion of Japan and him going to the Ashfords? He was 10 when he told Suzaku he was leaving for the Ashfords in the picture drama but he doesn't show up until he is a 1st year in Middle School (7th Grade) in the Sound Drama- Metting with Millay.
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Old 2008-04-10, 21:06   Link #78
Revolutionist
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
hm, not quite sure I can say I'm not. The thing is, so many people assert their own standard of good and evil that 'the Britannian Empire is bad', that 'Suzaku is wrong', that 'Lelouch's manipulative actions are necessary' in these threads about Code Geass, when things actually aren't so black and white. And their primary motivation for holding these opinions is because they want Lelouch to win and think Lelouch deserves to win. It's pretty unreasonable.
Britannia has been shown to massacre innocent people left and right, including women and children. What's the excuse for killing babies, they might grow up to be terrorists? I don't quite understand how you can say people are imposing their own standard of good and evil when the line is pretty clear cut. Racism, Oppression, Militarism, etc are not good things. A racist, oppressive militaristic regime is not and can't be good in the eyes of any rational person. Brittania has been shown to massacre people needlessly. In the first episode of both seasons we see Britannian soldiers kill babies and women, along with a whole bunch of innocent people, some whom aren't even 11s for no reason whatsoever.

They can't be considered good, you just can't view them in that light unless they you only watch the anime through the eyes of the Britannian media, who portrays innocent women and children as terrorists.

People love Lulu because he's standing up for what's right, even if his motives are personal. He's willing to sacrifice himself and become evil itself if it means others might live in happiness. Basically the guy fights fire with fire, and we love him for that. Suzaku is just a tool, he fights for Britannia and that's all I need to hate the guy. I could go on about how he's a hypocrite brat that killed his own father (has to be mental). And please don't give that excuse "oh but he thought if he's father hadn't died Japan would have adopted a hard line strategy against the invasion and more people would've died", what the heck does a 10 year old know about the world, or anything for that matter?

I rest my case.
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Old 2008-04-10, 21:08   Link #79
Dann of Thursday
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It has already been made clear that Lelouch is going to get a "good" end or at least win as Okouchi said this. He even said they could kill Lelouch and still give him a "good" ending. In short, Lelouch is going to win.

Besides, Taniguchi isn't the type for swimming lessons.
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Old 2008-04-10, 21:40   Link #80
Koshimizu
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Originally Posted by Masterkeyes2 View Post
One question I have though about Lelouch-what the hell was he doing in the three years in between the invasion of Japan and him going to the Ashfords? He was 10 when he told Suzaku he was leaving for the Ashfords in the picture drama but he doesn't show up until he is a 1st year in Middle School (7th Grade) in the Sound Drama- Metting with Millay.
It's been asked. FO said maybe they will show it sometime in the future.
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