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Old 2008-04-11, 15:26   Link #121
Masterkeyes2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashlay View Post
no, he does care about their freedom, even if he tried to justify it to himself as a mere "means to an end" in episode 24's preview.

Giving Japan is at very least part of his atonement for the 200,000 Japanese people who died because of his stupid mistake. But then he's also got a sense of responsibility to his subordinates and in general a hatred of seeing people living on their knees in near to total slavery. Nunnally may be on the top of his list of things important to him, but that doesn't mean that freeing Japan isn't important to him too.
I am confused where did I say otherwise in my previous statement? I said he did care about Japan...unless you were just reniforceing what I just said
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Old 2008-04-11, 15:31   Link #122
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Originally Posted by Sute443 View Post
I'm not sure how many children there are, but considering that the Emperor has 108 wives, that number of children seems awfully low.
With that many wives, he'll need ALOT of stamina to father atleast one child per wife and to do his kingly duties. If he does, then he sure ate his veggies while growing up.
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Old 2008-04-11, 15:35   Link #123
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He does care about Japan, but he cares about Nunnaly more. That's understandable as Lelouch isn't exactly a flawless hero now is he?

But he still made a consious selfish choice. He abandoned his forces (even if only in his mind for a little bit) to try to get Nunnaly and he wound up paying for his selfishness by losing both his sister and the rebellion. Had he finished the battle first and then went to get Nunnaly he might have been able to save her without interference or assuming he still couldn't get her in time, still would have recovered her sooner as he could immediately take the fight to Britannia. But he made his choice and because of that he lost everything and she's been at the mercy of Britannia for a year and probably will be for awhile.
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Old 2008-04-11, 15:38   Link #124
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^ It wouldn't have worked out if it went that way. The whole idea about that moment was that he had to choose between Love and Revenge. That was the test given to him.

Sure, things did turn out the way it did, but Lelouch is not clairvoyant and given how he had to make his mind on the spot, it was either Save Nunnaly of f*** Britannia.
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Old 2008-04-11, 15:46   Link #125
ashlay
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Originally Posted by Masterkeyes2 View Post
I am confused where did I say otherwise in my previous statement? I said he did care about Japan...unless you were just reniforceing what I just said
oh, I guess I misunderstood you. >_< Just saying that he's not fighting for Japan simply because he wanted a place for Nunnally to live.

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Originally Posted by Aquaman OS View Post
He does care about Japan, but he cares about Nunnaly more. That's understandable as Lelouch isn't exactly a flawless hero now is he?

But he still made a consious selfish choice. He abandoned his forces (even if only in his mind for a little bit) to try to get Nunnaly and he wound up paying for his selfishness by losing both his sister and the rebellion. Had he finished the battle first and then went to get Nunnaly he might have been able to save her without interference or assuming he still couldn't get her in time, still would have recovered her sooner as he could immediately take the fight to Britannia. But he made his choice and because of that he lost everything and she's been at the mercy of Britannia for a year and probably will be for awhile.
Can't really equate Lelouch going after Nunnally with losing the battle. >_> Britannia had his card, he would have eventually had to have gone after Nunnally and at that point he would have been finished off, brainwashed, and then the Order would have still been crushed.

If Lelouch can be blamed of a character failure in this situation, it wasn't impatience, it was lack of trust. If he had someone other than C.C. who he could count on to help save Nunnally, then he might have avoided being captured or even have stopped V.V. from taking Nunnally in the first place. (though then again, he put a lot of protection on her in 24 and things still fell to pieces. >_>) But otherwise, doesn't matter, it would have just been putting off the inevitable.
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Old 2008-04-11, 18:09   Link #126
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Originally Posted by Shadow Reaver View Post
With that many wives, he'll need ALOT of stamina to father atleast one child per wife and to do his kingly duties. If he does, then he sure ate his veggies while growing up.
Hehe, actually, given his age, his numbers do seem a bit low. That said, he seems to lose a great many of them, so maybe his total count is in the triple digits, and he has let nature take it down to 87 or so. Of course, on the less ridiculous side, a great many of those wives could be entirely political ties, and he has not bothered to give them meaningful attention.
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Old 2008-04-11, 18:17   Link #127
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Meh, I'm optimistic about his chances of winning, had he just gone back after Cornelia after finishing off Orange-kun with the building he'd probably have won given how Britannia worships it's royals. But he had no time, if something happened to his sister in between then or perhaps if he had won at all, since he also had to make a triumphant declaration of his victory from the Government building to the entire world afterwards, so that would have been pretty hard to hide (because it seems rather obvious that who ever did it *cough*V.V*cough* wasn't his friend and probably wasn't rooting for him to win >_>)
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Old 2008-04-11, 19:36   Link #128
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Hmm.......imagine if the directors followed Aristotle Tragic Hero requisites...

1. noble stature - check
2. not perfect - check (ego)

which could possibly lead to....

3. eventual downfall: Can be possibly seen as the transition from season 1 to season 2, where the OOBK gets royall screwed over. But he didn't lose that much...

4. Punishment (in this case, probably Lulu dying or something equally sad) : Can be debated (as in all other things..)

5. Increased awareness of faults, but too late to do anything: Again, can be possible in the future....

_______

Wahahaha, Lelouch can still be a Tragic Hero!!! But it wouldn't earn any muney....=/
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Old 2008-04-11, 19:45   Link #129
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I'm tired of tragic heroes, why can't the guy who uses questionable methods but with noble intentions win for once? You either end up with puffed up goody twits who have to win because they're just good and it says so in the script, or you have morally conflicting protagonist that descend into darkness and eventually fall at the end. Why can't we do something different and take the second part of the former (winning) and combine it with the first part of the latter (dark, morally conflicted character)
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Old 2008-04-11, 20:31   Link #130
Dann of Thursday
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Didn't Okouchi state that Lelouch was going to get a good end, even if he died? Does anyone have the translation of that?

In any case, if Lelouch does win I hope he is able to have a happy life. Or they could have him endure some more tragedies.
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Old 2008-04-11, 20:32   Link #131
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How is enduring more tragedies a happy ending Dann?
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Old 2008-04-11, 20:35   Link #132
Dann of Thursday
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I meant that they could either give him something of a happy life or not do that and force him to experiance more tragedies that simply make the whole thing bitter in the end.
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Old 2008-04-11, 20:36   Link #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
I'm tired of tragic heroes, why can't the guy who uses questionable methods but with noble intentions win for once? You either end up with puffed up goody twits who have to win because they're just good and it says so in the script, or you have morally conflicting protagonist that descend into darkness and eventually fall at the end. Why can't we do something different and take the second part of the former (winning) and combine it with the first part of the latter (dark, morally conflicted character)
The choice isn't "be good and win" or "be morally conflicted and lose." Anti-heroes, and morally conflicted characters can win - the question they face is "was it all worth it?" If they didn't care they wouldn't be morally conflicted.
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Old 2008-04-11, 20:38   Link #134
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Well, I say we give the boy his happy ending already, because I'm sick of them piling this stuff on top of him day after day after day when this show puts out the message of being able to overcome all that, is it such a stretch to think he can actually obtain what he seeks or is the set ways of the world unchangeable? If you accept that then you're finished the day you're born.

Quote:
The choice isn't "be good and win" or "be morally conflicted and lose." Anti-heroes, and morally conflicted characters can win - the question they face is "was it all worth it?" If they didn't care they wouldn't be morally conflicted.
That's not something Lelouch dwells on for the most part, he's all about moving forward and not letting the costs drag him down, that was established in Season 1. As should we all, we can mull over the past all we like, but it changes nothing unless we do something for the future to make those tragedies worth something in the end.
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Old 2008-04-11, 20:44   Link #135
Dann of Thursday
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Well, if he gets a happy ending then others should as well. C.C., Suzaku maybe, and all of Area 11should get a break too.

Well, the weight of the costs is on him quite a lot. He simply chooses to keep moving forward and deal with it afterwards. I can only imagine what that will be like when this is all over.
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Old 2008-04-11, 20:49   Link #136
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I have a feeling that when it's all over, Japan will be free again. The real question is whether or not Lelouch, Suzaku, CC and company will be around to enjoy it.
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Old 2008-04-11, 20:54   Link #137
KrimzonStriker
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Well, if he gets a happy ending then others should as well. C.C., Suzaku maybe, and all of Area 11should get a break too.

Well, the weight of the costs is on him quite a lot. He simply chooses to keep moving forward and deal with it afterwards. I can only imagine what that will be like when this is all over.

The day Suzaku gets a happy ending will.... okay, going to keep that bias in check until I see him in R2, but the 'present' scene with the Emperor didn't help...

It comes back to Lelouch's old argument with Suzaku, about results over means, that the goals are worth or exceed the costs. If he can achieve some happy results they may outweigh the sacrifices he has made and probably will continue to make... maybe, I certainly don't want the animators telling my Suzaku was right after all >_>
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Old 2008-04-11, 20:57   Link #138
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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
I'm tired of tragic heroes, why can't the guy who uses questionable methods but with noble intentions win for once? You either end up with puffed up goody twits who have to win because they're just good and it says so in the script, or you have morally conflicting protagonist that descend into darkness and eventually fall at the end. Why can't we do something different and take the second part of the former (winning) and combine it with the first part of the latter (dark, morally conflicted character)
I really, totally, and wholeheartedly agree with you Not that because Lulu is one of my favourite char, but more because I am so tired of anime clinche already. That's why I love Legend of the Galactic Heroes or Rai or (the manhua) The Ravage of Time because there's no goody stupid guy "survive thanks to luck and win thanks to good intention and friendship" and the capable one who definitely not an innocent/good hero but also not to much of a devil win the battle
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Old 2008-04-11, 20:59   Link #139
Dann of Thursday
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Originally Posted by Major1138 View Post
I have a feeling that when it's all over, Japan will be free again. The real question is whether or not Lelouch, Suzaku, CC and company will be around to enjoy it.
Lelouch will likely be around, Suzaku I have no idea about, Kallen is guarenteed to live, and C.C.'s chances aren't looking too good. I suppose we'll have to see how Lelouch is doing in the end.

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Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker View Post
The day Suzaku gets a happy ending will.... okay, going to keep that bias in check until I see him in R2, but the 'present' scene with the Emperor didn't help...

It comes back to Lelouch's old argument with Suzaku, about results over means, that the goals are worth or exceed the costs. If he can achieve some happy results they may outweigh the sacrifices he has made and probably will continue to make... maybe, I certainly don't want the animators telling my Suzaku was right after all >_>
He could always change in a good way. He isn't all bad.

Well, I doubt Lelouch will ever consider all the lives he took as right. He may consider the goal and costs worth it though.
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Old 2008-04-11, 21:07   Link #140
KrimzonStriker
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He could always change in a good way. He isn't all bad.

Well, I doubt Lelouch will ever consider all the lives he took as right. He may consider the goal and costs worth it though.
That's what I'm waiting to see, but he isn't looking particularly good at the moment

Maybe I should have rephrased that, prove Suzaku was correct or true, or whatever, but you get my point. Results are the basis of Lelouch's whole gimmick, doing the morally right thing isn't always doing the correct thing, so we shift those standards aside when making the decision of which means to use and focus on the overall end.
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